A Question for Jane Hamsher

[Liberation Angel]

(and other DUers)

First I need to ask, to get it out of the way and rhetorically WTF ARE YOU DOING SUCKING UP TO AND ALLYING WITH GROVER NORQUIST? HE'S A FASCIST AND HE'S USING YOU!

That said rhetorically,

My question (and any of her supporters and friends or lovers or DUers can chime in if you can answer this- and I have LOVED Jane Hamsher so am perplexed)

WHAT HAPPENS if you KILL THE BILL?

Do you or any progressive honestly believe that this HOUSE and this SENATE will come up with a BETTER PLAN in some near future; AND In what alternative universe is that EVEN A POSSIBILITY?

This isn't Fringe or Lost where you can change the realities of the present by adopting or acting on a belief in a mystical alternate reality or time/space-changing energy which will somehow allow one to correct the errors and ultimate realities of the present.

Isn't it a fantasy that if we actually KILL the Health Care Bill that the Congress will somehow do something DIFFERENT than what they have done?

Do we expect to win future elections while we are tearing down the best hopes and possibilities for the future which have been in suspended animation during the Bush-fascist era?

Come back to the flock, Jane. Tell Grover he is a fascist who needs to fuck off.

Tell Katrina van den Heuvel that you are sisters and hat you MUST fight for what you believe but you will NOT burn down the village, burn your bridges and waste the crops we have a;l tried to grow together.

This health care bill is not the end of the world. It is a transitional piece - a bridge to better an better.

So, do YOU, Jane, REALLY think if we KILL this bill that Congress will create one that is better? HOW?

Is there an actual strategy?

Or do you just want to be proved right no matter how much it harms the future of progressive causes?

Or am I just another naive realist who is as angry and worried as you but realize that the alternatives of the Bush-fascist way is far far worse and so we must accept some losses and setbacks as we martial our troops for the future?

[FLAprogressive]

1. Are we still piling on Jane?

[Way2go]

2. Career Advancement is what that's all about. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

4. What career is Liberation Angel advancing?

?

[leftstreet]

3. Can't you beat off some other dead horse?

This is boring

[FrenchieCat]

7. I'm up for some more Blame Obama bashing.....

cause that horse ain't never dead enough....

[Liberation Angel]

9. Oh Jesus, I am responding to the Hamsher/Van Den Heuvel dust-up

which I just became aware of.

It is interesting.

And this divide in the progressive house needs to be healed.

And frankly I want an answer.

from Jane.

or her supporters in all this.

HOW do you proveed if you kill the bill and how is that arguably a possibility?

The socalled progressives here who are fighting against the bill NOW are, to me and to Katrina Van den Heuvel, apparently, starting to be willing to, like Nader, kill the patient in order to save it (i.e democracy)

[natrat]

5. why are you asking this here? if you had balls you would go to the source

and this bill has nothing to do with progressive causes as it stands

[Liberation Angel]

10. I think there is a better chance of a response here

and it is a question for DUers to ponder.

And I honestly want an answer.

WHAT is the strategy BEYOND "Obama sucks", "Dems suck" , "This Bill Sucks" we lose...

[Hello_Kitty]

6. You need to try some different hallucinogens

How, pray tell, is Jane Hamsher or anyone who is not in Congress able to "kill the bill"?

[Liberation Angel]

17. public opinion can kill it ONE Senator balks (probably a rightist) and we lose the 60 votes needed

ONE VOTE

and public opinion can change minds.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. And Jane Hamsher and DUers will have caused this how?

If public opinion is against HCR I guarantee it's not because of Jane Hamsher or DU. You can stop 25 random people on the street and you'll be lucky if one of them knows who Jane Hamsher is. If a right-leaning Senator kills the bill it'll be because the Catholic Bishops told him to.

[TheWraith]

8. Kicked and recommended for some sanity.

Killing the bill is signing away all other legislation until at least 2013, not to mention destroying healthcare reform for at least another 15-20 years.

[tblue]

11. Did you send this to her?

I haven't been to her site in ages, but I'm sure there's a way to post this or email her, if you really want answers. Maybe you're just letting off steam? Can't blame you for that, but if you really want to give her that feedback and possibly get a reply, send it to her. You made some very good points she should hear.

[Liberation Angel]

13. I think it might get a better visibility here at DU than at firedoglake

plus I do nor want to get in a pissing match at her site.

I love firedoglake

I can handle the clusterbump here

But I expect she'll see it

[bridgit]

12. Grover Norquist doesn't have the guts to be a Fascist, that's why he's a Libertarian

[Liberation Angel]

15. Point well taken, but fascists ARE total cowards lacking in guts

they hide behind fake idealogies and get other do do the brutal murdering for them.

That is why Jane's alliance with him is so bizarre.

But maybe it as all just entertainment.

[Starry Messenger]

14. Oy.

[Jamastiene]

26. Gosh, some people get mighty emotional, don't they?

You'd think if they merely wanted to ask a question, they would go ask that person. Instead they post an emotional outburst in all caps that rails against any and all liberals on DU. I love the picture you posted. It's perfect. :thumbsup:

[GreenArrow]

16. What I love is

the bashing of Hamsher for allying with the fascist Norquist (and seriously, what is she thinking) while simultaneously defending the passage of a fascist health care (sic) bill.

[Liberation Angel]

18. I hate to ask but...

what do you propose?

And why is the health care bill fascist. Really.

I see it as no very helpful but it is better than the crap we have now which is NOTHING!

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Gee, how about using the power of the government to compel you to buy something from a corporation?

[Liberation Angel]

24. what are taxes then? we are compelled to pay for war, weapons...

But I get the point.

The mandates as are suck. But single payer would be a mandate too.

Frankly I'd rather pay for that as a tax instead of fascist wars, but...

oh well

It isn't fascism to compel us to pay for health care via tax penalties, but I agree it sucks...

But the care of the poor matters more to me...

Still

fascism is brute violence not a sucky tax.

All taxes are sucky when they pay for bad things...

[Hello_Kitty]

25. The poor are getting Medicaid

Medicaid could have been expanded without the rest of the bill.

[baldguy]

19. As far as I can tell, she's only being attacked because she reminds Dems why they were elected.

Damn her!

[Spazito]

20. Ms. Hamsher is not only aligning herself with Norquist....

she has aligned herself with Phyllis Schlafly which is also beyond belief, imo, given what Schlafly stands for:

"During the 1970s Schlafly almost single-handedly prevented ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA), a proposed constitutional amendment guaranteeing equality of rights for women. In 1972 the amendment passed Congress, and 30 of the 38 state legislatures needed for ratification passed it. Schlafly opposed it for allegedly striking at traditionalist family and religious values (opening the door to legalization of homosexual marriage, abortion, and conscription of women), for tampering with financial support and protective labor laws for women, and for transferring state power to the federal government."

http://www.answers.com/topic/phyllis-schlafly

In agreeing to align herself with BOTH Norquist AND Schlafly which she did by joining them in signing the group letter, Ms. Hamsher loses all credibility, imo, both on health care issue AND women's issues.

[jgraz]

23. Pay no attention to that President behind the curtain!!

Look, over here!! We got Norquist!! We got Hamsher!!! No! Stop! Don't look over there!! We got blackface, I tell ya, BLACKFACE!!!!