It is time to give the "realists" a dose of reality

[Bjorn Against]

Recently there have been a lot of calls for people like me to start seeing “reality”, unfortunately however we have seen reality. We have seen the reality of the insurance industry denying our friends and family access to basic health care. We have seen the reality of our brothers and sisters being sent off to die in unnecessary wars. We have seen the reality of our fellow Americans being laid off from their jobs and losing their homes to foreclosure. We have seen the reality of climate change and environmental destruction at the hands of multinational corporations. We have seen the reality of our gay and lesbian friends being denied equal rights. We have seen the reality of our basic civil liberties being stripped away. We have seen the reality that our government officials can torture other human beings without being held accountable by anyone. We have seen this reality shoved down our throats for far too long and we are not willing to accept this reality any longer.

We are not going to accept the current reality, instead we are going to work to create a new reality in which ordinary citizens take precedence over corporate interests. The only way we are going to achieve this new reality is to fight for it, and I am more than ready to fight this battle and defeat the so-called “realists” who have continuously screwed the American people over.

It was the “realists” who told us that if we did not go to war with Iraq Saddam Hussein would attack us with Weapons of Mass Destruction, they told us that after we invaded we would greeted as liberators and all the grateful Iraqis would hand our troops flowers. Unfortunately the “realists” were not living in reality and there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, and instead of being greeted with flowers we were greeted with Rocket Propelled Grenades.

It was the “realists” who told us that “free trade” would help build the American economy, instead their trade policies resulted in our nation's manufacturing base being destroyed and working class Americans were thrown onto the streets. Instead of bailing out the workers who fell on hard times the “realists” told us that we needed to send hundreds of billions of dollars to Wall Street and allow them to spend it without oversight.

Now the “realists” are telling us that we can't have a public option for health care because we need a bill that Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson will like. Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I am sick of watching Democrats bow down to these two men who have continuously screwed the people of this nation over. It is time for people to stop asking us how we are going to win the votes of Nelson and Lieberman, and it is time for us to start asking them how they are going to win the votes of the people.

It is time for people to stop accepting the “reality” that is being shoved down our throats, if we want change we need to stand up and demand change. Go ahead and write to your member of Congress, but please don't stop there and just allow them to ignore your letter. Get out into the streets, get active, and take a public stand. The only way we are going to change things is if people get out in mass numbers and make their desire for change known.

New Years is coming up and it is time for all of us to make our New Year's resolutions. Here are a few resolutions that I have for the New Year, and I am very committed to fulfilling each one of these resolutions. I will participate in at least one hundred public demonstrations over the course of the next year, I will crash a Michele Bachmann campaign event, I will participate in more demonstrations against the CEO of United HealthCare in places where he will see me, I will publicly stand against my Governor Tim Pawlenty as he prepares to run for the Presidency, and this is just the beginning. This may sound ambitious, but none of these goals are particularly difficult to accomplish all they require is for me to get out of the house and take a stand.

I have told you what I am going to do to help forge a new reality, now I want all of you to come up with a New Year's resolution of your own. This is not a contest to see who can do the most, this is an opportunity for people to think of some realistic actions that they could take over the next year and then commit themselves to those actions. The more people we can get out there to be involved in changing this world the faster that change is going to come. If you are tired of the reality of insurance industry run health care, war, climate change, homophobia, torture, or any one of a number of other issues then please get out there and help me show the “realists” that we can create a better reality than the one they want to shove down our throats.

[truedelphi]

1. Here is a bit of hope, the real kind, not the

Campaign slogan kind.

Over the last two hundred and some years, there have been many idealists such as yourself, Bjorn. Who seeing reality understood reality, and took it on themselves to make changes for a better world.

They were called Abolitionists in the 1840's and 1850's. And there are still areas of Downers Grove Illinois where you cannot park a car overnight because the car might go crashing through the pavement and down into the tunnels which the Underground Railroad used to hide escaped slaves.

Then there were the Women Suffragettes, who struggled with prison sentences and beatings and even rape while confined.

Then there were those who thought that "Child Labor" was not a good thing, and they too faced ridicule.

And of course, all the many Union organizsers, who wanted everyone to have a fifty and then a forty hour work week, with decent wages.

And there have been the environmental activists, and the peace activists and others.

The changes take a long time to come, but one thing is certain, the changes always always always end up happening, because of those who refuse to settle for "reality." Or at least, refuse to stop working for a better world until that world is at hand.

[Bjorn Against]

6. Thanks for the post, those groups you mention are all heroes to me.

[mother earth]

103. Amen, truedelphi, well said and may those who crave a

better way be strengthened by the memory and deeds of those brave souls before us, and may that same will and determination live in our hearts and remain strong...we need that spirit, at this time, thank you. You need a new thread on this, very deserving post.

[JDPriestly]

110. truedelphi, I wish I could recommend your post.

[OHdem10]

2. Having Business and Wall Street run the show is their reality, this

does not mean it has to be that way forever. Change can happen.
Good Post.

[LostInAnomie]

3. Great job trying to lump people that can accept reality with supporters of the Iraq War.

I quit reading there. :puke:

[Bjorn Against]

5. I don't know what you mean by "people that can accept reality"....

I would certainly hope you are not suggesting that we accept the type of reality I mention in the first paragraph of my post, and I will assume that you are not. If that is not what you are suggesting however then I have no idea who these "people that can accept reality" are, all I do know is that many self-proclaimed realists did support the Iraq War.

[Hannah Bell]

31. "I dream things that never were, and say, 'Why not?'"

Your 'reality' is highly overrated. & is, in fact, just mass hallucination held in place by power.

[tblue]

83. One of my favorite quotes.

I'm so glad you brought it up. I was just thinking of that after reading so many posts calling people ideologues and urging "pragmatism," which to me means capitulation.

[Hannah Bell]

119. how the party has changed, eh? it's pretty astonishing. people supporting

all sorts of neo-liberal garbage & calling it liberalism. the politics of hope & change is now the politics of "realism," "baby-steps" & privatization.

[Hydra]

49. Those people were called "realists" at the time

and the rest of us who were saying "What planet do you live on?" were called the loons.

Did you support the Iraq war? Do you support similarly bizarre "realities"? If you do, I suggest you ask yourself why. As Delphi further up pointed out, the things that were fought for that are considered noble, at the time were, at best, "unworkable."

Somehow they "worked" and it wasn't because they listened to the "realists" of their day.

If you like the status quo, say so. If you don't, don't support it.

[dionysus]

67. realizing that there is too much corporate influence to get 60 dem senators to vote for single payer

is not "liking" the status quo. sometimes reality is just... reality...

[Hydra]

69. Right

That doesn't mean we support a bad bill and say that it's a step in the right direction.

[dionysus]

70. that's just where people's opinions differ. some see it as a platform to build on,or a foot in the

door. others don't

:hi:

[Hydra]

82. True

and that's the heart of this OP. Some of us haven't supported the things in the past that we were told were necessary(Military Commissions Act and FISA gutting for instance). I'd rather have been wrong about that, but I wasn't. Things were done badly that hurt people, and they were not made right later.

In the same regard, I think this is going to be a disaster. I HOPE not, but time will tell.

[defendandprotect]

90. Agree with you and it will serve to BLOCK anything that should have been done from happening!!

[defendandprotect]

87. Corporate protection is also coming from the Whtie House . . . big time!!!

The idea that little Lieberman wrangled this whole thing because he's omnipotent is

inane -- fake.

Single handledly, Lieberman knocked out the public option and 55/Medicare option . . .

Wow --

Hard to believe . . . because it's farce --

You only need 51 votes for a majority -- let them filibuster and let's see the reaction

of the public --

Better yet, let them filibuster something real like an offer of Medicare for ALL --

everyone in, no one out --

and let's see the public's response!!

[Autonomy]

104. Your *proof* that a fix is in is that Dems in the Senate

did not make the Republicans filibuster? This is where the "see reality" admonitions come into play.

[dionysus]

118. not just leiberman. all the blue dogs, plus, i'd wager, a sizeable number of the other dem senators,

and house democrats, are getting their bread buttered from corporate interests. and pretty much every single republican.

that's why i think people like bernie are still supporting this, trying to get whatever they can while knowing Big Money is preventing things like single payer.

you can blame the white house to whatever degree you want, but they can't wave a magic wand and make everything right when the whole system is rigged.

[defendandprotect]

124. No . . . but Lieberman and the Blue Dogs can "wave a magic wand " and get what they want?

Please . . . !!!

[dionysus]

125. actually, beg required for the 60 votes, they can..and did...

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

126. You only need 51 votes to pass . . . make them filibuster . . .

If Bush had given us this garbage health care package -- we'd be laughing and crying

but certainly we wouldn't be arguing for it to pass!!!

[dionysus]

128. and if they kill the bill via fillibuster, what have we gained.

[defendandprotect]

129. About $600 Billion/$800 Billion which would be passed on to corporate/fascists . . .

who are stealing your liberty --

These are criminal trespassers on our "people's" government ---

usurping power to themselves and enriching themselves at our expense!!

[Enthusiast]

81. You misunderstood the OP.

I hope that was what you did.

[timeforpeace]

4. I resolve not to fool myself into believing the out of power party is enriching the CEO of United

Healthcare with "healthcare reform". But I'm reality based like that.

[chimpymustgo]

62. Oh hell yeah reality.

[Ken Burch]

74. You just gave me the image of Homer SImpson taking a bit of an imaginary donut

and saying "MMMMM....Reality!"

[BeFree]

7. Write on

The lumping all of those who post about the reality of politics as enemies is a bit much, but your solutions are right on.

Idea: When we get our notices that we are being drafted into this health care plan, how about we gather on the square and burn them together like guys did with their draft cards?

That is, if, in reality, the plan is as bad as some predict.

As a long-time-ago street protester, I gotta say, it could work.

But as someone who goes to meetings now, I say our reality is reality at that level. We are a messed up country but banging on the table and telling the others at the meetings they are idiots, doesn't work.

Congress and the president are at that reality level. What they have to deal with is unbelievable. The only way out of this mess is compromise, compromise, compromise.

[Bjorn Against]

9. I am not trying to call all those who post about the reality of politics enemies...

What I am doing is taking a stand against those who try to insist that we need to accept their version of "reality" no matter how unrealistic or unethical it is. Certainly there are some realities we need to be able to understand, but that does not mean we can allow one group to define reality for us and then tell us that we are forced to live with that reality.

I do like your idea of burning the notices we receive about the health care plan, but there needs to be further action beyond that because in this age all those notices are stored electronically as well which means burning the cards is more of a symbolic action than anything. Symbolic actions are important, but there needs to be a sustained effort to keep fighting after that symbolic action takes place.

As far as compromise goes, yes sometimes our elected officials will be forced to compromise but we need to demand a good compromise rather than capitulation. We need to demand they start with a bill that is far better than anything we could ever hope to get. They may need to compromise from there but at least they are starting from a position of strength rather than beginning with a compromise and then caving from there.

Second we need to remember that just because our politicians may need to make some compromises, that does not mean that we the people need to compromise on anything. We are not politicians and we need to stand up for what we want at all times, there is absolutely no reason for ordinary citizens to compromise when we don't need to pass legislation. If we don't stand up for our ideals then the people will think that what they are being handed is the best they can get, we need to constantly remind people that there is something better and they need to fight for it.

[defendandprotect]

92. Lieberman & Nelson demanded NO public option and NO 55/Medicare . . . and we folded!!!

NOT really believable . . .

An orchestrated farce, more likely -- !!

[Bjorn Against]

93. You're right, this was no compromise at all

Single payer is what we were seeking, the public option was the compromise. Instead the Democrats decided to throw away any compromise and give Lieberman and Nelson what they wanted.

[Hannah Bell]

32. LOL. "The only way out of this mess is compromise, compromise, compromise."

[BeFree]

45. well

If you have a better plan, we're all ears. I guess that your plan would be to make war? Beat them over the head? Make them bend to our will by shear force? What? How do we dig ourselves out?

[sabrina 1]

52. I haven't seen compromise, I've seen capitulation.

For compromise to work, it has to come from both sides. Since our side lost everything we wanted and since that's been pretty much the case ever since the DLC infiltrated the Dem. Party. All this party has done is to capitulate. And even that is not a good word for it. That would mean they believed in some of the things the party platform says they stand for.

The more I think about it, the word 'cooperate' fits better. Dems cooperate with Corporate Interests which includes the MIC and the Private Health Insurance industry represented by the Republican Party and the DLC warmongers, every time .

However, I do like your idea of dumping their notices. To make sure the symbolism isn't lost on anyone, I would dump them in Boston Harbor. I think the people who stood up to an Empire over the grievances they had back then, and after not having them addressed, would do no less.

[BeFree]

60. yes, well

Obama is the new kid on the block with a lot to prove to the old pols in DC.
He carries a host of baggage which is from the prog/lib side. Well, the prog/lib side is damn near powerless in DC, eh? So all he can do is to stake a left claim and then compromise. He did it with the HCR and he got something solid.

War? What can he do? The whole system is arrayed against much drawdown.

The reality is that DC is full of freepers. Freeps who have consolidated power for years and years. It's gonna take a lot of cooperation to get the change we need. Of course, any help we peeps can give him from right off the streets can't hurt.

[sabrina 1]

73. I'm not following your logic. Are you saying that to get rid of

freepers in DC we have to cooperate with them to help them continue with their agenda even when we have a majority? Because if so, that makes absolutely zero sense to me.

As for Obama 'getting something solid', the Private Insurance Industry definitely got something solid, they got to keep control of our Health Care system, despite their corrupt, failed record, and with zero competition they were handed millions of new customers who now have a virtual gun to their heads to pay up, or have the IRS after them, now a collection agency agency for Private Insurance. If I were a Private Ins. CEO I would be drinking champagne right now. But as a citizen, not so much. You may be right about Obama though, he did say he got 95% of what HE wanted so he seems to be in line with Big Pharma. As he said, since the campaign his 'thinking has evolved'.

As far as 'what could he do'? Well, if he had no plans on at least doing something to 'change' things he should not have told us he could do the job. We all know it is a tough job and he knew what needed to be done. So what you are saying is we just elect people for show, we don't expect them to do the heavy lifting that a president always has to do? We should be satisfied that at least 'he's not Bush' so we can be screwn in a more pleasant way?

He could have started with his cabinet choices, such as the Goldman Sachs lobbyists who are his economic team. And he could have appointed a new Sec. of Defense, rather than keeping the man who was involved in Iran Contra and who betrayed Jimmy Carter eg. His choice of COS was a devastating mistake, at least for the people. So, when you surround yourself with status quo Wall St lobbyists and old Cold War operatives, of course you won't get anything done that remotely resembles change.

[BeFree]

89. We have a majority?

No. We. Don't. Democrats may have a paper majority, but prog/dems do not.
DC is mainly freepers. Bushco freepers, still. 8 years they've squatted there.

Why people do not realize the real extent of opposition to US in DC is confounding.

The president is just a small part of DC and it takes years to get over and around all those who want to keep the status quo. Reality.

Surely he has made some bad decisions. Duh. But if started making changes already he'd look like a fool to most of the M$M and DC beltway.

But go on your merry way thinking that by electing him that was all you had to do, and poof! everything is rosy. That's not reality.

[sabrina 1]

95. The president has immense power within his party

Face it, this is the bill Obama wanted, he said himself now that his thinking has evolved. You might want to talk to Obama about the reality of DC because it was he claimed he could change it.

And yes, many people reluctantly voted for rightwing Democrats having been informed that the 'worst Democrat is better than the best Republican' by their own party and we had to have 'a 'majority' in order to get things done'. Now, you're confirming what many of us knew at the time. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were among those who believed that we should support Blue Dogs and DLCers because the majority was so important. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.

What you're saying is that the leadership of the Dem. Party lied to us that we needed to support fake Democrats because at least then we'd have a majority. If working so hard and sometimes against our own better instincts to get that majority was a waste of time, then we were lied to, weren't we? Not that I'm surprised, I was one of those who did not agree that electing DLCers and Blue Dogs would do any good.

And now that you agree I'm sure you'll understand when from now on, we go with our better instincts and refuse to support anyone just because they have a 'D' after their name.

I hear nothing but excuses from Democrats going back nearly ten years now. First it's 'we're a minority so we have to vote with Republicans on war etc'. Then when we got a majority in 2006, it was 'we don't have a big enough majority and we don't have the WH' (funny how much power Bush had while Obama, according to you has none) and now it's 'we really, really don't have a majority so that's why we can't things done'.

You're basically making a case for people not to vote at all because it's all so hopeless anyhow. I disagree. I know the president can influence even the most reluctant members of his party. HE JUST DID THAT. Except it was to bring them along with his For Profit Health Care program. He had to twist their arms, but he did it. So stop with the excuses. He uses his power to get what HE wants done. He's not helpless as you would like to believe. He's just not on our side on too many important issues.

[BeFree]

100. Back to reality...

..Bush had power because of 9/11. And he greatly misused it. The comparison with Obama and his level on a similar time line has to take in that reality.

Obama used his power, and a dem majority in the congress, to pass a bill that is historic. Fine, disagree about if it was good enough, but see that he did use it to get it done. 60-39. Partisan all the way.

I support someone with D's after their names because there is NO other choice. Yes, restrictive, but that's reality. Plain and simple.

As for the rest of the majority gig, it is the lib/progs that don't have a majority. Quit confusing the two, please. I do feel that given time and the proper pressure, Obama will get more prog/lib stands made into law. Hell, he'd better or we are doomed, and for at least the next three years, he's all we got. Piss and moan all you want but be real. What it is, is what it is.

[sabrina 1]

106. Bush had power because an easily frightened

population including Democrats fell for his mis-use of it. Democrats eg, supported his invasion of Afghanistan, calling it a just war. It was never about 9/11 yet people went along with the lie.

And while I agree with you that Bush used 9/11 to get the Neocon's stated agenda in place, he also managed to get far too many Democrats to go along. For example, 12 Senate Democrats voted for the historically abhorrent MCI and essentially helped him to suspend Habeas Corpus. And when his AG, Gonzales made the ridiculous claim that we had no right to Habeas Corpus, only a few Democrats tried to do anything about it and all ended up agreeing not to impeach him.

Iow, I said a president has immense power within his party. Bush was able to get Democrats to cross over and vote for his most blatant anti-Democratic agenda when they did not have to. Contrast that with something as important as Health Care reform and as you pointed out, not a single Republican did what Democrats have done. And before you point out how wrong it is to put partisanship before the good of the country, I know that. But it would not have been partisanship for those 12 Senators to vote against a law that supported basically giving the powers of a king to a US president.

So, explain why Democrats feel the need to 'go along' when something is so clearly wrong. This is not what we voted for.

As for Obama and this bill. It is a terrible bill and one that if Bush had tried to push it through would have caused the same people on the left now trying to sell it as 'historical' to have apoplexy and rightly so.

He used his power for the wrong things. He made no attempt to use it to get a bill that was at least Democratic or to limit the powers of the failed Private Insurance industry. Because as I said, he is clearly now on their side. He could, eg, have used what Bush used when all else failed, reconciliation to get at least a PO in the bill. The fact it was never even considered and that his COS told the 'left' to get lost, without a word of rebuke from Obama, told me all I need to know about whose side this administration is on. You have to be blind to ignore the cabinet choices, the willingness to dump people like Van Jones to satisfy the worst of the rightwing among other things.

He's just a politician and a very ambitious one so no surprise to me anymore to see another one forget who put them in power. I prefer to recognize facts rather than blindly support politicians as I did in the past, especially when they are so obvious.

[defendandprotect]

127. Right -- Why has no one pulled Lieberman's Chairmanship??????

Great post !!

[loudsue]

96. Beating them over the head is a good place to start. War is the

alternative. But they are KILLING our fellow Americans, by not allowing REAL health care reform. In wars, people die. So far, all the dying has been our side. All the killing has been their side.

[defendandprotect]

91. White flag surrender to corporate/fascism . . .??? I don't think so . ..

[dotymed]

117. revolt, revolt, revolt..

compromise only makes you bleed from the "bad parts" while revolution means fuck the corporate line and masters...I'm taking mine too...how's it feel?

[frazzled]

8. Well, the sad thing is ...

I don't see any of the so-called idealists here laying down their lives on the bloody battlefields of Fredericksburg to fight for the equality of all.

I don't see anyone hanging from the gallows in the wake of the Haymarket massacre, martyrs to the cause of labor.

I don't see anyone braving the hoses and dogs at the Edmund Pettus bridge, vowing to overcome at any cost for so that justice can be done.

All I see is a bunch of whiners sitting at their keyboards who don't want to be forced to buy insurance from a corporation, even as they ignore the 30 million poor and middle-income people who will be able to face the day knowing that if their child gets cancer or their husband is in a car accident, that they can get the care they need for the first time.

And you're making a resolution to crash a Michele Bachmann campaign event and thumb your nose at Tim Pawlenty?

Give me a break. I am one of those realists you despise who got tear-gassed as young student in the streets of New York, protesting the war in Vietnam; I was a realist who went door to door for weeks on end in New Hampshire in 2000 for Al Gore, and who returned there in 2004 to stand for hours in subzero temperatures to prevent the reelection of Bush. I marched in the streets with 50,000 others in 2003 to register my extreme opposition to the impending invasion of Iraq. I spent 8 years of the time I lived in Minneapolis volunteering to tutor Hmong and Hispanic and African-American and white kids from poor families who were failing in school. I went to Grant Park in Chicago earlier this year with my signs to attend a rally in support of a Public Option.

But here we are, and I am the "realist" and you are the noble "idealist." Don't fool yourself. It's good if you step away from the computer and get out into the real world. But it's not going to be like the Civil War, or Cesar Chavez, or Jane Addams, or Martin Luther King. It will be one little step towards a goal--a goal that a lot of us "realists" have been working to achieve for decades. The only difference between us is that we see progress in every step. You apparently believe that your actions will sudden make lots of ponies appear on your doorsteps overnight.

It took 100 years between the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights Act to achieve even the beginnings of real institutional equality in this country (and even then, it was just the beginning). Each step along the way was a step. But you've got to take the first step first. There is no "magical realism."

[Bjorn Against]

11. I have stepped away from my computer many times...

All you have to do is look at my journal to see that I practice what I preach, there are many pictures from actions I have taken and that is not even close to the extent of my work. I am confident that I will exceed my resolution of participating in a hundred protests next year, because as long as I don't slow down from what I have been doing I will easily have more than that. I have been in the real world, and I put myself on the line every single week so don't try and tell me that I need to step away from the computer and get out more because I am already a lot but I will be out even more in the future.

Don't call us whiners and imply we want ponies.

[frazzled]

13. Don't you tell me that my realism doesn't accomplish as much as your whatever

My resolution for this year? To fight like hell to get this health care reform bill passed, and then continue to fight, as I have done my entire life, for the next steps: to achieve improvements to it. That is the way that all true political activists have achieved their goals. How dare you insult those of us you call "realists." We are no less committed to progressive ideals than the rest of you. If you want to spend your time attending Michelle Bachmann events, more power to you. I would prefer to take steps that improve the real lives of real people in any way, small or large, I can. We may disagree on the means to the ends, but we will not be told we are not true progressives.

[Bjorn Against]

18. I never said you were not a true progressive...

My post may or may not be about you, I don't know enough about you to make that determination. I can say my post was not aimed at all people who consider themselves realists, it is aimed at those who call themselves "realists" while ignoring the realities of the problems their policies have created and insisting that everyone else has to accept their version of reality. If that description does not fit you then this post is not about you, if the description does fit you then I make no apologies if you were offended because quite frankly I am offended by the implication that those of us who disagree with these "realists" are completely ignoring reality.

[frazzled]

20. Each side seems to think the other believes they have the only true answer

And yet we are all working for the same goals. It's the tactics we are disagreeing about. And all we're accomplishing is tearing the movement apart. Which, I think, is a recipe for total failure.

It's definitely working both ways: those who believe the pace of change is too slow think those who are choosing to see the compromises made for small steps forward are sellouts, in league with the "corporatists."
Those who believe that achieving something is better than nothing at all think those who require perfection are naive idealists who are ruining any chance for change altogether.

There's a lot of hyperbole on all sides. But you can't put everyone into the same pigeonhole: we disagree on things. That doesn't make some of us blind Obama idolaters and "centrists" and others of us Stalinists ready to make a pact with Hitler (in the guise of Grover Norquist.)

What has to happen is for us to listen to each other with more respect. You're right ... we don't know enough about each other. It hurts to be called a "corporatist" or "Rahm Emmanuel" (not that there's anything wrong with that) when you have been working for true progressive goals. I'm sure it hurts the other side to be labeled the equivalent of teabaggers, with their purity tests when their idealism is a necessary component of goading the system.

One side is right to want more, the other side is right to be patient in making incremental steps forward. What's wrong is to fight in public, and to destroy each other in the process. That will only result in Republicans gleefully gaining control of everything again.

Insert Rodney King plea here.

[BeFree]

14. Thanks, frazzled

...for that dose of reality.

But it hurts, doesn't it, to get lumped, once again, into a pile of supposed know nothings? Especially when it comes from friends?

[carolinayellowdog]

17. Very sad indeed

"All I see is a bunch of whiners"

Whining can be heard, but not seen. When used metaphorically to describe political discourse, it's nothing but a meme to dismiss opponents as children.

[Jamastiene]

26. It is propaganda to dehumanize the enemy.

We are seen as the enemy because we threaten to fight back against bloating already bloated yuppie stock portfolios with mandated purchases of a product.

[Jamastiene]

24. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

You act like you have a monopoly on suffering. You also proclaim to know everything about your enemy. You do not know what suffering we may have endured and some of us who are poor are fully aware that you do not care, so quit pretending that you do.

The blackwhite campaign is an epic fail when you try to use it on enlightened liberals who know and understand what it is.

Spare us the martyrdom bit. There are no winners in the oppression Olympics.

You go on living in your insulated yuppie "reality" far removed from what the poor and middle class are really suffering through right now. Maybe one of your rich heroes will offer you a ride on their new yachts, bought and paid for by the suffering of the poor and middle class. We will continue to pay more than any other industrialized nation for health care and get less than half the real health care help we need here in the US...all thanks to your insulated. snobby. yuppie attitude. Enjoy your champaign.

[NMMNG]

28. I just want to know when the chocolate rations will be raised

:shrug:

[Jamastiene]

29. Me too.

I get a little cranky without enough chocolate. :P

[FrenchieCat]

33. Thank you frazzled, for your contributions....

from another one of them no good realist who marched twice in S.F. against the War in Iraq, and have done my share of contributing, calling, knocking on doors, and writing. :thumbsup:

[Hannah Bell]

34. Haymarket was over 100 years ago, that's why they're not there. duh.

You don't see what anyone does because you're talking over a computer.

The poster has made his resolutions. How about you?

[jpak]

46. Couldn't have said it better myself

"lots of ponies"

Ouch!

:thumbsup:

[Adelante]

50. Frazzled

:thumbsup:

[juno jones]

72. Stop dragging 30 million poor people into this.

What have the poor done to you to deserve such philanthropy? We are always talked in front of, never heard, and by gods, we never are allowed a place at the table. One thing we don't like is middle class/ upperclass using us as a blackmail bargaining chip to shape their own agendas.

As one of those 30 million who realistically sees the medical system that I must live with, and what will be meted to me after this bill, if nothing is changed, all I can say is thanks, no thanks. Poor Little Nell and Tiny Tim will still die of cancer due to being turned down by Aetna and reliance on bottom tier community clinics. Like they are now. Except now mom and dad will have to pay the for the CEO of Aetna's pony before they can get treatment for their kid. Same as it ever was. Sorry if you think that's whining, it's reality. Poverty has a knack of bringing it all home.

And if you think the working people, the same ones emboldened and made hopeful by the mention of Public Option, the ones who talk confidentaially to each other that they know it's 'socialist' but they would really like Canada's health care system, will swarm enmasse to keep dems in power once those mandates go thru, you gotta be smoking pony, that's all I can say.

Realism dictated that the will of the people, not the screeching of corporations would be followed. That opportunity for realism was lost. Reality will ensue.

[SergeStorms]

113. Bravo.........

Just wanted to give you a little positive reinforcement for saying exactly what I was thinking. :hi:

[inna]

101. delete

[Goldstein1984]

10. Here's what I resolve to do

I still firmly believe that the masses are not yet angry enough to produce the kind of crowds necessary to create fear among the economic and ruling elite. As the mainstream Democrats are currently demonstrating, they're more than happy to label the Cindy Sheehans of the world as Left Wing Teabaggers.

I believe that only one thing will frighten TPTB--an economic impact--hurting the bottom line.

I've divested my retirement savings from stocks.
I've moved all savings from our bank to our credit union.
We cut Christmas spending by 90% this year.
We're not buying any durable goods.
We're not eating out.
We're patronizing small, locally owned businesses.
All of our charitable contributions have been diverted from "helping" organizations to radical organizations without any party loyalty.
I am available for general strikes and targeted boycotts.

I had the day off, and I spent a good part of it sitting in a coffee shop reading, but I was also watching and listening. I got a haircut and listened to the conversations while I waited. I came home and watched some news on MSNBC.

I have the distinct impression that, wherever it is this country and this planet are going, the majority of people where I live like it or just couldn't care less.

It is the system that is broken. The system is too far gone to be fixed by working within the system. If we're not talking about stepping outside the system to fix or replace the system, then I have books I'd rather be reading.

[Bjorn Against]

12. Thanks Goldstein, that is a very good start

Your post is my favorite on this thread so far because you are the first person to actually commit yourself to making change, the more people we have like you the easier our job will be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You know I know that the first step is to educate people

it is striking to me how concepts such as POLITICAL elites and RULING elites are understood in places Americans like to scorn, yet in the US they are not.

Me. I have committed myself to educating people into these basic concepts, and why TRUSTING political elites will lead to no change. They have no reason to fear us, when there is no consciousness.

It is also incredible to see how many people BELIEVE they are part of that elite, when all they are... well useful idiots to use an old term.

There are signs under the surface that perhaps the people, that amorphous mass, might be waking up. There are also signs that there are cracks in the ruling elites... (See Pentagon Papers II, that is the leak of the internal memo reported tonight by Richard Engle and how Afthani policy ain't working). So we shall see.

There are also other signs that fear ain't working. All I heard flying back after this last incident, was gripes from people over the added visible security. So the fear is not working any longer. Even that passes.

So these are signs... not that at this point I expect the American people to actually get it. If they want change they can believe in. direct pressure needs to be put on.

Oh and if another mass strike is called for... I am there, like every other one that has so far failed.

[Imagevision]

16. can't educate people, the government won't allow it - it interfere's with the agenda

[Malikshah]

19. The Realist school in Foreign Policy (as opposed to the Moralist, etc.) is akin

to the Libertarian Party--

They wish to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear that is they lack of compassion, empathy, knowledge of history, and common sense.

Libertarian's are just too scared to call themselves Republicans.

Realists (in the FP definition which is applicable in other areas) are just to scared to admit that they just do not care about other people.

Admitting one's failings is the first step to addressing them.

[lildreamer316]

21. I thought I wasn't supposed to buy into that 'create your own reality' stuff?

Funny how those who heap disdain upon that idea and call it 'woo' will probably chime in to agree that you are right on this.

I happen to think you have a point about demanding change and not accepting their 'reality'. Count me in. Call me woo. I don't really care.

[Vidar]

22. Wonderful post. Recommended.

[Jamastiene]

23. The "reality" meme is just psychological warfare used on civilians in a noncombat role.

It is part of the rapid dominance doctrine. Any methodology can be used to crush all opposition even in a noncombat setting. It is used to try to scare you into giving up and not fighting any more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe

"Shock and awe, technically known as rapid dominance, is a military doctrine based on the use of overwhelming power, dominant battlefield awareness, dominant maneuvers, and spectacular displays of force to paralyze an adversary's perception of the battlefield and destroy its will to fight."

Once you understand what they are doing and why, it almost makes you immune to their propaganda. The trick is making sure everyone who really believes in the Democratic platform as it was written before this perversion of it was implemented knows what overwhelming bullshit distortions of reality (psychological warfare: rapid dominance) is being used against us.

Also, see blackwhite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Newspeak_words#Blackwhite
"“ ...this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink. ”

—Orwell, 1984

The word is an example of both Newspeak and doublethink. It represents the active process of rewriting the past, control of the past being a vital aspect of the Party's control over the present."


K&R

[Hannah Bell]

36. +100. Which is, I imagine, why there is a contingent of folks repeating it over & over.

The "old" Democratic line went more like this:

"Some people see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not?"

[Starry Messenger]

63. Great work in this thread, Jama!

:thumbsup: I'll be bookmarking.

[nashville_brook]

64. word.

:evilgrin:

you are so right.

[sabrina 1]

108. Good post, you should make it an OP

None of these tactics would work if people were aware of them. They depend on a population that is not informed.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

25. Definitely keep fighting, all we're saying is fight smart and find constructive ways for change.

[cali]

27. bzzzt. I'm a realist. I was against the war in Iraq from the get go

I'm a realist. I've been working for marriage equality for over a decade and a half. (and in my state, we've finally got it.)

But I'm a realist and I know the health care legislation is a done deal. I intend to work on the state level to see it implemented as well as is possible to benefit those who need it most.


You don't have a clue about what it means to be a realist.

[Autonomy]

111. thanks for saving me the trouble of replying Cali

unrec to the OP. We all get our *doses* don't we?

[Hannah Bell]

30. +100. Politicians don't fear disgruntled individuals. They fear organized individuals.

The most important thing people can do in these times = organize.

[democrank]

35. K & R

Here`s my New Year`s resolution:

No real change, no contribution. No real change, no vote.

[DisgustedInMN]

37. I'll likely be seeing you on the front lines..

.. of this war on "reality." The last time I felt the sort of anger over being fucked over by the DC political machine that I am feeling now. my friends were coming home in body bags from Viet Nam. I thought Obama might actually be what he said so we could avoid the civil distress on the streets. It appears I was wrong.

[Bjorn Against]

42. Awesome, and welcome to DU from a fellow Minnesotan

If you are in the Twin Cities area then we have some great activists working on these issues already, if you want to get involved at any time let me know and I can let you know what is going on.

[voc]

38. Realist checking in...

Two questions come to mind... ok three

Will this Bill cover 30 million Americans or not?
Will it get rid of the pre-existing condition discrimination or not?

If yes to both, then the most important question,
Who in the hell are you fighting?

Because I suggest no one knows who is the "real enemy".

BTW, Progressive really is a pita term.
Seems we can't agree on what what they will "allow" us to call ourselves.lol

[Dr.Phool]

40. Will this bill clean out the bank accounts of 30 million?

You betcha!

[juno jones]

75. You obviously have never had to deal with bottom tier health care.

Open wide, turn yer head and koff.....

You'll get used to it, and don't say you weren't warned. :evilgrin:

[Gman]

39. Ummm.... No

What realists are you talking to that told you all these things? Huh? Realists, rightly so are telling you the truths if we're going to have any kind of health care reform. Where did you hear or read of "realists" telling you about all these other things? Not on DU, that I've ever seen and I've been here from the beginning.

Very nice rant, though. K&R for that.

[Skittles]

56. being told this is real health care reform is garbage enough

[bos1]

41. You're spewing more BS than an exploding septic tank.

I didn't get past the line
'It was the “realists” who told us that if we did not go to war with Iraq Saddam Hussein would attack us with Weapons of Mass Destruction'.

That is BS. That is not the way it went down at all.

Fail.

[winyanstaz]

68. my Goodness..where the heck was your head ?

The only fail is your grasp of reality.
The rest of the planet all remember it perfectly well.

[bos1]

94. Wrong. The entire thing was a quite overtly irrational, and in fact, the "reality based" public was

scorned by the architects of the war. So this OP is ironically using the same tactics as the architects of the invasion of Iraq, by dismissing reality as inconvenient to his argument.

Which goes to show how the Obama-haters here are the mirror image of the neocons in their thinking. (on edit, see post #48 for details of this fact)

[Bjorn Against]

97. Yes it was irrational, but they pretended they had a stranglehold on reality

And I am not "dismissing reality as inconvenient to my argument", I am pointing out that just because someone says something is reality does not mean it is reality. I am saying that we can work to create a better world and we do not have to accept the crap that is handed to us.

You refer to us as "Obama-haters" when I never even mentioned Obama in my post much less say that I hated him, that is the same type of tactic the Bush supporters used when anyone tried to criticize him. You want to see a mirror image of the neocons, then go look in the mirror.

[maryf]

43. The more people we can get out there to be involved

in changing this world the faster that change is going to come....Hear, hear, K&R

[cognoscere]

44. Over the years, I've found that

people who start a sentence with, "The reality is..." are either deluded or lying. In most cases, they are Republicans.

[Faryn Balyncd]

47. K and R

[SteppingRazor]

48. One small point of contention. It wasn't "the realists" who said Saddam had WMDs...

it was the murky mirror image of our own idealism. The people who bought into that looked at the world as they wanted it to be, not the way it truly was. So, they weren't realists. Far from it. It's just that the conservative version of idealism is a world in which everything is black and white. There is good and evil, and there are no shades of gray. but in the conservative version, idealism means violent struggle against perceived evil. In the liberal version, it means striving for that perfect good. Either way, there's little room for shades of gray. The difference is not in whether the conservatives who believed Saddam had WMD and liberals who demand no compromise in health-care reform are realists or idealists. They are both idealists. The difference is in the consequences of their idealism.

Indeed, look at the theme reiterated throughout the OP:
"We are not going to accept the current reality, instead we are going to work to create a new reality in which ordinary citizens take precedence over corporate interests."

"help forge a new reality"

etc.


This theme reminds me of nothing so much as the words of that anonymous Bush administration official, largely believed to be Karl Rove, who said to Ron Suskind in the early days of the Bush administration:
"The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

[rtassi]

51. I guess I believe in the ability to change reality because I already see it as fluid,

each persons of course being slightly different than anybody else's. Unique conditions, environments, belief systems, geography's etc. playing into the mix. I don't see the effectiveness of different realities projected through force of will attempting to become the new "collective" reality reaching a suitable solution for mankind, as long as anger and hate are connected to it. Personal change, that is to say, a complete overhaul of ones awareness of the connection to each other and the planet seems like a faster, smoother, more achievable approach ... eliminating possibly in a shorter amount of time, conflicts brought about through a seemingly never ending struggle for power. Synthesis, as apposed to compromise also makes sense to me...

[kctim]

53. You fail to realize

that most people do not share your dire views of what is reality.

[EFerrari]

58. Maybe you could back that up in some way? And K&R.

[kctim]

76. .

Most people have not seen their friends and family ACCESS to basic health care, which is why the majority of Americans are satisfied with their current plans.
Most Americans are TIRED of the wars.
Most Americans have not been laid off or lost their homes.
We have seen what some people believe COULD be the reality of climate change, but nothing that convinces most people the Mayans were right.
The majority of Americans are not gay hardly give the issue a second thought.
The civil liberties that are being stripped away have not affected 99% of the population. More people worry about the 2nd Amendment than they do about this.
There is no consensus about what exactly constitutes torture. Most say they are against torture but also agree that all should be done to keep them safe.

Peoples reality is based on their personal beliefs and views of the issue. That is why 'some' people have so-called proof that President Obama is going to take away their 2nd Amendment rights and why others have so-called proof of illegal wars even though Speaker Pelosi hasn't seen it.

The only reality is that we each make our own.

[EFerrari]

79. But that's not really true. There is shared reality

and that is how we operate relationally and at the public level.

The unemployment rate in the black community is close to 30%. Among black youth, 50%, I just heard that this morning on Amy's show.

Most Americans probably know someone who has been laid off or who has lost their home. Foreclosures are still going up, not down.

I don't know many Americans who don't worry about the cost of health care. No one in my circle, that's for sure.

I don't know about climate change or attitudes about it among Americans. Equal rights for gay folk is building and will continue to build.

If I have some time tonight, maybe I'll go fish for some actual numbers on these issues because now I'm curious. :)

[kctim]

88. Good point

"...is how we operate relationally and at the public level"

Gives a good cause for some thought.


Knowing someone who has been laid off or who has lost their home is not going to make most people want to "create a better reality" as the OP calls for. It takes a person directly affected to want that.

I agree that most people worry about paying their insurance premiums, but I don't think enough believe it would that much cheaper or any more effective if govt did it for them. I also don't believe enough Americans are willing to give that freedom to choose up, quite yet. Soon though, I am sure.

Climate change attitudes are based on how much more it will cost the individual and how much of a lifestyle change that is asked.

Yes, gay rights will continue to build, but that does not mean the majority see their plight as a reality they must face and fight for them.

[nashville_brook]

65. you fail to persuade.

[kctim]

78. I'm done trying to persuade anybody

I just state my opinions and it will be election results which prove me right or wrong.

[NorthCarolina]

54. Thanks for a great posting. K&R

:applause:

[Skittles]

55. PREACH IT BJORN AGAINST

I am particularly tired of being told I have to accept this garbage by so-called progressive DUers :thumbsdown:

[scentopine]

57. Realists, centrists, pragmatists -

They live in a ideological DMZ, unencumbered by empathy or core principals. Constantly taking advantage of the weighted average of public sentiment to appear as winners, willing to compromise anything and everything, unable to shape and stick to a vision, driven by political expediency, constantly shifting allegiances, prone to making grandiose promises with no intention of following through, no guilt for breaking promises or hurting/damaging their constituents, assign privilege as a function of wealth, a fear of labels like democrat, republican, conservative, liberal, etc.

Old school republicans and democrats wear their ideology on their sleeves where you can see it and agree or disagree. With centrists/realists its just whack-a-mole.

The main problem with centrists is that they don't lead, they follow. Our entrenched right wing media establishes the political direction of the country and the centrists just follow in the slip stream. When centrist policy overlaps with democratic values, the democrats cheer. When centrist policy overlaps with republican values, republicans cheer (more or less depending on the party in power).

But in both cases centrists always cheer. It's brilliant. As long as centrists can closely follow average public opinion (as shaped by our media), they win. Centrists simply follow the money without wasting all that energy defining a clear agenda and sticking to it.

[noiretextatique]

105. +100: this is our political reality

lack of vision, courage, and leadership. i pledge to educate people about this reality in the new year. in fact, i pledge to talk to one person every single day about this reality.

[Echo In Light]

59. It's weird how the types alluded to by the OP rely on Projection to the nth degree

Projection, according to Carl Jung, occurs when a person sees in another qualities they themselves possess. This phenomenon goes on daily in most relationships and encounters.

Whenever a person is convinced that the awful qualities seen in another person have nothing to do with him or herself, a projection is mostly likely being engaged. This does not mean, however, that these qualities are not present. It merely means that they probably exist, to some extent, in the person observing them.

[Kermitt Gribble]

61. I reject your reality

and substitute my own! - Sorry couldn't resist :)

Excellent post, Bjorn Against! As Hannah Bell said in this thread, "Politicians don't fear disgruntled individuals. They fear organized individuals" - I believe organization is our only hope to combat the corporatist take over of our govt. We need to massively increase and strengthen union membership to include all fields of labor and give the working class a unified voice. We're also going to have to show the teabagger-types that we have common ground on this one issue (we will never agree on any other issues, but this one is crucial to all of our survival).

K&R!

[Enthusiast]

85. I like the union membership deal.

That would help. But I seriously doubt the strictly controlled teabagger types are in favor of collective bargaining.

[Starry Messenger]

66. Most of the so-called "realists" are living in a fantasy world.

Good refocusing of the lens, Bjorn.

[freddie mertz]

71. K & R. Nice job Bjorn!

[juno jones]

77. K&R! n/t

[20score]

80. Well said. K&R

The attacks by these "Realists" are almost as bad as the healthcare bill itself.

Thanks for posting.

[defendandprotect]

84. Bravo -- !! Bravo -- !!

Those of us who have been voting for the "leser of evils" have to try something new --

we should get together as a voting bloc on this and develop a plan B --

[bvar22]

86. K&R...Hi Minnesota.

I moved from Minneapolis to The Woods of Central Arkansas in 2006.
I miss the activism of Minnesota, and would LOVE to join you for a Bachmann protest.

My resolution for 2010 are to keep doing what I've always done, fight for:

*Medicare for anyone who wants it.

*Immediate withdrawal of ALL military forces and "contractors" from the Middle East.

*Immediate reduction of Military Spending by at least 50%

*The immediate break-up (Trust Busting) of everything "Too Big to Fail".

*Fair Competition Legislation that lets Mom&Pop (small locally owned businesses and farms) compete with Big Box and Factory Farms on a level playing field.

*An end to "Free Trade" (Race to the Bottom)

*Organized LABOR and local co-ops.

*An end to the two-tiered Judicial System

*Prosecution of rich American War Criminals and War Profiteers. (Oh yes they did!)

*An END to "Corporate Personhood"

*Strictly Enforced Publicly Financed Elections (severe penalties for criminals)

*Transparent and Verifiable elections (Why isn't this a front burner issue with the Democratic Party?)

*Re-Regulation with strict oversight of Banking/Investment, Transportation, Communications, Trade, Energy, Utilities. There should be NO Public Money for private Prisons, armed Private Police, armed Defense Contractors, private intelligence agencies, OR Private For Profit Health Insurance Corporations.

*Immediate Civil Rights and Equal Protection for ALL. (No Exceptions)

*Free Quality Universal Education to everyone who wants it.

*Strong Social Safety Net and Consumer Protections.

*An end to The Patriot Act and a return to The Constitution.(especially Habeus and privacy protections)

*A refutation of the "Unitary Executive", and legislation to ensure it NEVER happens again.

*An END to Republican/Corporate influence INSIDE The Democratic Party !
(NO! They DON"T deserve a seat at the table or a place in the Tent)

I don't really care which Political Personality occupies the White House.
When they move TOWARD the above goals, I WILL applaud and support them.
When they move AWAY, I WILL oppose them.
I have found precious little to applaud this year.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Odin2005]

98. Corporate Capitulationism is NOT "pragmatic".

[spin]

99. K&R ... great post.

Obviously we need to remind those we elect to represent us that they serve us not big corporations or big money.

Until they get the message, we will continue to be pissed on.

[midnight]

102. K&R no. 146

[librechik]

107. We'd better get our own media, then, cuz that's how the neocons turn their lies into reality

And it better be a lot of media, too.

Sorry. It's not going to happen.

There has to be another way...

[clear eye]

122. When our actions have too much impact to ignore

we will get media. Not necessary to give up before we start.

[mother earth]

109. I wish I could join you in all those efforts, Bjorn Against.

I applaud you. I'm not sure what I will resolve to do in the year ahead, all I know is that I am sickened by the turn of events, and the direction I once felt hopeful about. Some are in survival mode.

I do believe more people than we realize are disgusted, but coupled with disinformation and a palpable effort to stir up hate and fear, what do we have? It does not bode well, nor does it bode well for those in gov't who have some modicum of honesty and integrity left, they are subject to the same frustrations we all feel, mostly of being outnumbered and left with no tactics to fight or represent us.

To build up this country, it will take a village ;)....not much of one that isn't beholding to the corporate $$$. That's the equation that needs to be removed, that's the change that has to happen before we can actually make progress.

But I do agree the fight must never die, or we do too. A founding fathers revival is what's needed, and where are the John Adams or Jeffersons or Thomas Paynes? There are a few, let's hope the pendulum swings and the outrage grows, along with the realization that everything is at stake, because it certainly is.

[AllyCat]

112. I'm with you!

[quaker bill]

114. As a realist

I told no one any of the things you list. I was sure Saddam had no WMD before the war and posted it here. I have always opposed "free trade" for all the reasons that have materialized since. I always knew that PNAC was a disaster in the making. There is not an issue here that I have not spoken or acted against.

Further I never stated "you can't have a public option" as I do not believe that to be true. What I have been saying is, as a realist, "you're not going to get one".

I am absolutely sure that you could have single payer and just as sure that it will not happen soon.

[carla]

115. I apologize in advance,

but the people of America have become the sheep of American fascism. I commend your call to engage
"the realists", but how do you think anyone (but you) will do much after 8+ years of taking it in the bum? Sorry, the fight may be the good fight, but most of the sheep are not going to look up.

[dotymed]

116. NO SHIT

reality is a construct. I've spent my life in construction. It's time to REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH and construct a new reality...

[Hippo_Tron]

120. Strictly speaking, realists didn't suppor the Iraq War

Both Realists (capital R) and realists (lowercase r). Using the military to democratize Iraq was an extremely unrealistic proposition.

[TheKentuckian]

123. Yeah, but some realist need to step up and admit they were wrong

at one point like 7% supposedly supported going into Iraq.

I recall substantial mouth open ears shut support all around. It was really probably more tha 10% but many ate it up. I consider myself a realist, I was right on Part D, Iraq, Shrub, deregulation, free trade, and Reagan and I think this bill might just suck akin to that stuff aka BAD.

How are you talking about building off of something that is wrong in it's actual structure? Why would you want to do that? The reform requires wholesale reform before it leaves Congress.

[avaistheone1]

121. Great post.

Sorry I am too late to kick and to recommend.

[johnaries]

130. Whoa! The "Realists" were AGAINST the war in Iraq

because we knew there were no WMD's because we followed the UN investigations.

The Realists were against "Free Trade" and supported Fair Trade, because we recognized that Free Trade meant a lowering of a higher economic system in order to meet a lower economic system.

It is obvious that you have no clue what a "Realist" is.

Which is been our main point, all along.

Stop using knee-jerk reactions, and use your freaking brain, man! THAT is what "being a Realist" is all about. Use your fucking head.

And STOP using RW talking points.

[Bjorn Against]

131. Can you please tell me how my post was "RW talking points"?

Unless you think the right-wing suddenly opposes the wars, wants single-payer health care, supports gay marriage, wants to restore our civil liberties and opposes torture then I really don't understand where you find RW talking points in my post.

And I do understand what "realism" is, and many "realists" did indeed support the Iraq War and "free trade". Here is a link that explains realism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_in_International_relations

[johnaries]

132. The very fact that you had to link to Wikipedia

proves how clueless you are.

Sad.

We can improve the world and ourselves. But it cannot be done overnight, or by the wave of a magic wand.

It takes time.

[Bjorn Against]

133. Don't like that one here is another....

http://www.iep.utm.edu/polreal/

I never said anything about a magic wand, but all you seem to have is personal attacks.