Republicans ten times worse than Democrats, therefore we must constantly support any Democrat?

[Political Heretic]

First of all, I don't agree that there is a vast spectrum of difference between Republicans and Democrats in national politics. I think that spectrum of difference is far more narrow. On specific issues there are opposites and differences. But in terms of maintaining the basic same conditions for the majority of Americans, the difference is much smaller.

What's more, in at least modern times both parties treat working class Americans as second class citizens. Regardless of the "degree" to which they do this, the fact that it is a reality at all is a problem.

Right now many (probably most) people here seem to assume that we must simply accept a system in which the needs of poor and working class individuals and families are always prioritized beneath the wants and whims of the financial elite. This is the standard trickle-down theory, and there have been just as many democrats espousing it in modern days as there were Reagan conservatives in times past.

And Trickle-down theory goes beyond just economics to the whole of social policy. The basically unquestioned assumption is that the whims of the financial elite must be catered to and prioritized. Republicans believe this is true because the poor get what they deserve, and no investment should ever be made in the working class. Democrats believe this is true because its just how the system works and the system should never, ever be questioned - thus in order to even be able to throw a few crumbs from the table of the masters, the wants and whims of this nations first class citizens must be catered to.

That's the society we live in: two thirds of America continues to prop up a government that does not represent them, treats them like second class citizens, and demands that they be content to lick off the ground whatever crumbs of policy fall from the table of the glutinous feast being enjoyed by a first class minority.

Now that's just the way it is.

The question is, which is better - to continue to prop up this system in institutionalized inequality forever, by constantly supporting the same status quo when neither party is willing to prioritize the needs of the working class, or treat the majority of people in this country like first class citizens? The argument being that quite literally nothing else is possible. There is not hope. No possibility for anything better than the system we have right now, and thus all we can do is hope for small, marginal incremental temporary benefits given one year then lost the next. Thus our only choice is to support the lesser of two evils in a dismally failed, utterly unjust system of exploitation.

OR,

We can stop.

I don't know what happens if we stop, if we say "enough." But I have a feeling we'd be in for a season of darkness before any sunlight. It is true, that if there was revolt within the ranks of the broad spectrum of people that refer to themselves as being in some way "on the left" the possibility exists that for a time Republicans could use that as an opportunity to regain power.

But I want to remind you of a little truth - in this maintained political status quo, Republicans will already regain power at some point, as people vasilate back and forth between the "lesser of who cares." People shouldn't be thinking about what happens in the first year of upheaval when republicans use the turmoil as a chance to grab some power. People should be thinking about what happens when Republican once again fail at leading - as they always, inevitably do - only this time, there is something different ready to stand in opposition to it.

Even if things don't turn out like that wishful scenario, one reality remains: endlessly perpetuating this broken system under the argument that "at least one side is better than the other" is a hopeless, dreary, dismally grey world to live in where we accept being treated like second class citizens, accept trickle-down (read: piss on) economic and social theory, where we except that our "representative government" tells us - you wait until we've served your "betters" and then, if there's any scrape we manage to benevolently get in bargaining we will throw them to you.

I'd rather fight that ridiculous failed system and risk losing than simply succumb to its dismal status quo.

[tblue]

1. Agree. But I didn't realize it until

we won super majorities and the WH. Obviously, sadly, it's still not enough. And it's not because of just Joe Lieberman. I never ever was a purist. I'd scoff af Kucinich voters. Now, for the first time in my life, I'd consider voting outside the box, with the party behaving this way. I feel the party's left me.

[Raine]

3. I didn't realize it either

till the last few weeks, I don't think I've ever been so disallusioned and hopeless. I know I'll never vote for a reTHUGlican but I also refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll take it on a case by case basis from now on, I'm done being a "yellow dog Democrat".

[Jamastiene]

2. This may be the closest to revolution we'll ever have.

For many of us:

We cannot tell a discernible difference between the parties.

We see that nothing is going to change for the better no matter who wins elections.

We have finally reached a point where we have nothing.

We realize that we have nothing, so we have nothing left to lose.

We are under pressure from the status quo in the party to not buck their system.

As we stick to our values, they pressure us more and more to stop bucking their system.

The fact that so many of us have had enough and are sticking to our values right now must threaten their status quo. Otherwise, they wouldn't be threatening us with Republican rule.

They just don't realize that we see through it all now and the threat of Republican rule doesn't really matter now. As long as the Democratic Party helps the Republican Party move the country further right, the threat of Republicans in power is like threatening us with more of the same. So what? Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. :shrug:

We need to support the real liberals, who DO stick up for our values in the party during primaries.

[shadowknows69]

4. K+R great piece PH.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

5. The question is why is it a narrow difference the only message removing our support from them has...

ever sent is move right as the country by its voting record is conservative. The fact that people might agree with Liberals on most issues the message Democrats have listened to is the voting pattern and the nation swings right in a heartbeat. So sure on that basis they have little hard evidence to say the country prefers a progressive agenda and 2010 if polls stay constant will only reinforce that. They listen to how we vote even more than what we say and our polling says more status quo please. This is why it's all marketing we have to promote our agenda make it sell to the public and Congress then it passes, but expecting it to pass because it's a good idea on its own doesn't work. It's clearly the red states where things are falling apart and even though it is hard that is where we need to get our point of view out the hardest and the strongest.

[quaker bill]

6. If you cannot tell the difference

then you are not paying attention. Nothing new and "different" will arise. If something "different" was going to arise, it would have done so long ago. Surrendering power to republicans is not an answer. Now, it is true that every time I think I have seen the worst republicans can offer, they one up it. However, their failures only help by keeping their voters home, it does not change the social dynamic. There was no mass protest over torture, instead we got "24". If torture was not enough to offend the sensibilities and cause mass action, what on earth will be?

However, every time we let the republicans go to their extreme, it does successfully redefine the left more toward the center. The lowest bar that removes the pain of republican rule is redefined as sufficient. You propose a Naderite model and this model fails miserably. If you want to win, then you back people who are doing the stuff that is most like what you want. Make it very easy for them to raise funds and be re-elected. Others will notice this and follow on.

If you want an amoeba to move in a direction, you place the shock behind it and the food in the direction you want it to go. It is truly just that simple. Placing the shock alone (republican rule in this case) only gets the amoeba to move away from it in any direction that seems to ease the pain. There is no reason to believe that the direction it will move will be the one you desire. Positive stimulus is always more effective in getting to a desired outcome, this is just a basic principle of behaviorism.

[WeDidIt]

7. Whatever you say, Ralph.

George loved you for this in 2000.

[tbyg52]

14. a) Mad as I was at Nader at the time, he did *not* cause Gore's "defeat" in 2000

and b) they *are* just the two wings of the corporate party, it's become glaringly evident.

[LWolf]

8. Agreed.

I, also, would rather fight that ridiculous failed system and risk losing than simply succumb to its dismal status quo.

[opihimoimoi]

9. The diff between Parties is VAST...the PUBS are EVIL Fear Mongers who lie cheat and steal...BULLIES

[Laelth]

10. Hear, hear. I want to see Democrats acting like Democrats.

If elected Democrats won't support the working class, the working class will abandon the Party. Then the Republicans will take over, and perhaps the next crowd of Democrats will do more for those who elected them.

:dem:

-Laelth

[rubberducky]

11. This is why we have primaries(sp?) .

[Yuugal]

12. K&R

Good stuff. My personal solution is to never stay home on election day because that is just what the Rahm-scammers want. They don't care if the dems lose power because they are rich and will make more money that way. So I will vote the bottom end of the ticket to encourage new progressive growth and wherever I see a DLC loser I will actively vote against him, even if that means voting for Pat Robertson.

The reason our party stands for nothing is we were fooled into thinking just voting for any old D was good enough when voting for a DLC-er is actually worse for us than voting for a repuke. The DLCer will always vote his republican values on the big stuff and will prevent a real dem from taking his spot whereas a repuke in that spot is an opportunity to provide real choice next go around.

This strategy has worked for the neocons and it could work for us too. My neocon friends think nothing of voting dem to spite their own party when it buries it's head in the sand and doesn't listen to them. Sure enough, the next election the repukes put up the most foul neocon they can find just to appease this group. Thats how people like Palin and Huckleberry get ahead while moderate repukes are driven out.

As a party we need to stop growing more weeds than vegetables. I always hear on DU from people who claim that their state, county, town, etc will never vote for a progressive but that is ignoring the fact that places like Kansas used to be solidly dem and could be again if we gave them a real dem to vote for instead of just a second string conservadem who resembles their previous fuckup in every way except the letter in front of his name.

You are correct that we will see some darkness before the dawn but I think it is pretty goddamn dark anyway even with our super majority of sellouts.

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. +1

:thumbsup:

[BzaDem]

15. You talk as if there were actually some alternative.

There isn't. The idea that 3rd party candidates are viable is a coping mechanism. Nothing more.

Our system structurally prevents 3rd parties from getting anywhere. For a President to win, he has to win an absolute majority of the winner-take-all electoral votes. Even in Congress, if 20% of EVERY single district goes to a 3rd party, that 3rd party will get NO seats in Congress. Our system is completely different than those of many other countries (where major parties have to make coalitions with minor parties, and minor parties get seats in parliament).

This is not something that can just be "fought" by voting 3rd party. It may be therapeutic, it may make you feel better, but it does not at all help the goals of 3rd parties (and will continue to not help year after year and decade after decade). The only way to change this is to change the Constitution.

Even you admit that there is a difference between Republicans and Democrats (though you say it is small). Voting for the more liberal candidate in a primary does help sometimes, but one should vote for the best candidate available once the general election comes around. Just because you don't like the two choices available doesn't mean there is somehow a 3rd choice that is ever going to get anywhere.

[Political Heretic]

16. There is an alternative, and no it isn't some 3rd party entering into the system.

You went automatically to the third party conclusion, not me.

What I wrote in a related thread:

When I talk about rejecting this national political system, its not because I am naive enough to believe that a glorious peoples revolution is just around the corner. It's not that I think that we're on the verge of a massive, nation-wide movement to end this corporatocacy and reinstate a truly representative democracy. I'm not necessarily optimistic about that.

What I want though, is for people to stop making excuses for this failed national system, and both the parties that comprise it. Yes, I know this is Democratic Underground and I realy appreciate that so far I still get to post here. I used to be a Democrat when I first started reading here so long ago, but I'm not anymore. And yet I still care about the people - many good, amazing people who identify as Democrats. I feel that the system has failed, but there are countless ordinary Americans identifying as Democrats who are full of passionate commitment to social and economic justice. That's why I still want to participate in this community.

What I want is for people to accept that this system has failed, and put their hope and efforts into other places besides Washington politics and party politics. Maybe for some that will mean speaking out and trying to organize real movements. That's wonderful. But in other cases I think it just means refocusing from the national stage to the community stage.

In cities and municipalities, in counties and states - this is where real battles are being fought and won - yes won! - but those who put the needs of poor and working class individuals and families first. National politics is not going to save us, especially not in this system which has failed. But grassroots efforts absolutely make a difference. My best friend hasn't paid an once of attention to the last six months of health care wrangling in Washington. But as program coordinator for the Community Housing Alliance of Cincinnati, she has busted her ass to get people into safe housing and off the streets, to organize and lobby city hall and state government to change polices to put the needs of the poor first - and she's won tangible victories that have translated into substantive change for real people, and changed policy in Cincinnati.

Progressive have desired living wage law at the federal level for ages, but also dismiss that desire as nothing but a pipe dream - something that will never happen in that failed system. And yet today over one hundred and twenty cities and municipalities have passed living wage laws all over this country, with more votes on the horizon. And a lot of people who can't do anything of impact the failed system in Washington have pour time and energy into these efforts and seen victory.

Washington corporatism and its influence that has poisoned both parties will not get us where we need to be. It has killed the national political system. It has failed ordinary Americans and appears to beyond hope of saving from the inside. I think we should consider focusing on our own communities, our own neighborhoods and schools, our own counties and our own states - places where we can walk up to elective officials and look them right in the eye - because I believe that grassroots level is where change happens. And I believe if there is ever to be any hope of saving our failed national poltical system, it won't come from the top-down, or by just reelecting the same Democrats over and over. I believe it will come from the bottom up, as we pour our energy into our communities and watch the fruits of our labor grow and expand.

[IndianaGreen]

17. We should disregard the letter after a person's name and only vote for those that will fight for us

and stop worrying about how many seats there are in Congress.