Can you be feminine & a feminist? (MSN front page)

[underpants]

http://www.msn.com/

Are You a Feminist or a Feminine-ist?

Being a strong, powerful woman doesn't mean you have to be tough, overworked and unattractive. Karen Salmansohn explains how power and success come from being in touch with your feminine, sexy and loving side.

http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articleoprahmatch.aspx?cp-documentid=22663614>1=32023

I see too many women these days rushing around trying to do it all, but meanwhile they're not being it all! They're not being their fullest, best feminine selves. Instead, they're being tougher than they'd like to be as well as more exhausted, strident and irritable, thereby feeling unattractive inside and out. All while suffering from guilt over the stuff they did not manage to squeeze into their over-booked schedules. I know this firsthand because I've personally experienced this over-emphasis on doing, doing, doing so I might become my most powerful writer-girl self. Which is why my firsthand knowledge is an unmanicured hand and a lot of the time I feel exhausted, emotionally depleted, and not my most sexy or feminine self and therefore not my most powerful self either.

The irony? Whenever I do take the time to tap into "feminine-ism" — this energy of simply being by indulging in a meditative and self-nurturing manicure, a facial or a hot bubble bath — that's when I feel my most powerful.

As a card-carrying "feminine-ist," I am here to tell you that feeling sexy is what helps me to be my most powerful and successful self, and being powerful and successful also helps me feel sexy! As "feminine-ists," we definitely don't need to make the choice between feminine or powerful and successful. We should and must try to embrace both choices simultaneously.

With the word "feminism," it might have been embarrassing for a man to say he was a supporter because it might sound like he was admitting to supporting of a group of controlling, snarky women. But with new pro-sexiness, pro-sweetness, pro-balance words like "feminine-ist" and "feminine-ism," what's not for a man to love?

:eyes: Yes because being a "feminist" (or some semantic relative of it) is ALL about makin' your man happy :sarcasm:

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. She trying to sell more of her self help books

29 books so far


She's not my cup of tea but she is jungian in her advice, which I like.
I think people do get hung up on semantics sometimes and not action and
interpersonal reflection which I think is what she is suggesting.

[phasma ex machina]

27. "29 books so far" Ergo her exhaustion.

[Ichingcarpenter]

30. She drinks a lot of coffee and admits it...photo of her

Google her and her interviews. She relatively young
but makes a living out her 'self help' books.

She is a Pop author and has found her niche.
She is not deep to say the least.



I see through her.... but to me
she fills her niche
on the swallow stream
of human consciousness. She at least knows
the art of promotion, which I don't


She does have a sense of humor
in her writings, but not my type, but I know where
it is coming from, having a daughter
about the same age who read a couple of her books
and introduced me to her writings.

Now my daughter is on a higher learning curve
reading about JUNG

Hey, at least my daughter talks to me about

STUFF


I think she a Doctor Phyllis,
I mean Phil......

[phasma ex machina]

35. "drinks a lot of coffee" "not deep"

Sounds a little too much like me. LOL.

[Demeter]

2. Excuse Me

:puke:

Now, you were saying?

As to not being one's "fullest, best feminine selves", does society reward you for that, with pay, or honors, or even marriage?

Being one's "fullest, best feminine self" is the prerogative of a kept woman, or one who needn't exert effort to see that she gets her daily bread. Most women would rather see their children have food and shoes, medical care and education, assuming first that these women can keep their own body and soul together. Then comes politics, to make sure that women and children keep those necessities. Having a partner in this is ideal, but unrealistic these days, given that so many men are into either psychopathism or addiction as a career choice, neither of which is conducive to strong family life.

Any woman whose focus is on such narcissistic goals needs a good hefty dose of real, honest to goddess feminism, and a boot in the booty.

[Hekate]

57. This is where Hekate chimes in to say Demeter's right. Been there...

... done that. Persephone has so much yet to learn.

That woman is absurd, but I'm sure her books sell.

Hekate

[flor-de-jasmim]

3. Thought the question was resolved a couple of decades ago. Hmmm, guess not.

[Captain Hilts]

4. This is so insulting. But so long as women say, "I'm not a feminst, but..."

we will be subjected to this shit.

Feminism has been so demonized. Do you ever hear black Americans say "I'm not in favor of civil rights, but...." No, and rightfully so you do not.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. yup

[Captain Hilts]

5. Underpants, it's been a rough week to have your Nom de 'Net. nt

[underpants]

7. Yes but we can withstand the pressure

stress-tested over time

[Le Taz Hot]

6. Oh, shit!

I "unrecced" by mistake! Somebody counter that for me, will ya?

She sounds like Camille Paglia -- the non-feminist feminist who the MSM always seems to drag out to represent all feminists. I want to puke every time I see her.

[lukasahero]

8. Rec'd for you

Although I have mixed feelings about rec'ing this - I want to rec the discussion but kick the original writer in the teeth. :evilgrin:

I wish people like her would just shut the fuck up and stop acting like they speak for all women. (I suppose that's so very unfeminine of me, though, and I must, as such, be wholly unhappy and not living up to my full potential - bite me.)

Feminine and sexy are not interchangeable words (from a woman who finds men incredibly sexy.)

Emotional strength, strength of character, endurance, the ability to fight fiercely to protect those one loves: these are all qualities of the feminine. Manicures and sexy lingerie are the shallowest of all definitions of feminine and it's an insult to what women have endured through the ages for this woman to imply that this is from where we draw our strength.

[Mari333]

9. what a stupid shallow article

Is it posed to 7th graders? are people really this dumb?
of course, what should I expect from the MSM, whose own anchors look like Barbie Dolls and bad drag queens.

Thank God I am old. I do not think I could bear being young again and having all that social role playing thrown at me.

[Karenina]

10. I just clicked the MSNBC link

and got two long-haired, blonde, "hottest babes" on the left side. That social role-play WAS thrown at me from the time of the"Breck Girls." The idea that women can define themselves is ALWAYS under attack. It is about unleashing the knot that unleashes POWER.

[Mari333]

12. I would prefer they just be honest

and say "we do hope all you ladies out there continue to prostitute yourselves and buy our products."

so much easier, and truthful.

[Gwendolyn]

15. The hottest babe vid is about reality stars and three are portrayed as being pigs.

I'm not getting from the commentary that these women are anything to emulate and periodically the female commentator openly oogles her male counterpart. Underneath the vid is a story about the man who broke the hula hoop record. We're not exactly in the serious news section here.

[Echo In Light]

11. Femin-m&m-inisticismesque, even

[omega minimo]

74. ow

:rofl: :rofl:

[varelse]

97. You're making me nostalgic for the old school DUzy awards

:cry:

[RadiationTherapy]

13. This article should be about being sexy and independent.

The author (intentionally?) is using an undefinable, 'flame war' word in order to rile up more readers. Since 'feminine' is undefinable and 'sexy' is what she meant, I can only assume it is flamebait (the article, not the OP who shared it.)

[juno jones]

14. When I was a kid

My most hated stories were the ones about the tomboys coming of age...all of a sudden, she gave up climbing trees, wore dresses and the boy next door looked at her differently, etc etc.

Personally, I wear, say and do whatever I want, am somewhat sturdier than the feminine ideal and I get along just fine. I always have a man around and the ones I got say they like women like me.

Stereotyping does none of us any favors, but I suppose it's easier than original thought, at least to some.

[bemildred]

16. You can be any damn thing you want. And you don't need "help" from anyone else. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Jesus Fuck I hate articles like this.

Insulting claptrap. :puke:

[noamnety]

18. BARF

"Whenever I do take the time to tap into "feminine-ism" — this energy of simply being by indulging in a meditative and self-nurturing manicure, a facial or a hot bubble bath — that's when I feel my most powerful."

[Echo In Light]

20. Translation: It's okay. You're not actually vapid & superficial. Ignorance = strength

[noamnety]

29. It reminds me of every "chick flick" I've ever seen

where the mandatory "I'm empowered" scene for the formerly abused/neglected/not-found-herself-until-this-moment woman is a montage of her trying on expensive outfits and posing.

[omega minimo]

19. Another Rush Limbaugh victim

[dugaresa]

23. exactly what I was thinking

[omega minimo]

24. jinx!

:toast:

[Sparkly]

21. Why do I get the feeling she dots her i's with hearts?

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

22. lol. embracing that feminine that she is. nt

[Solly Mack]

25. Claptrap

[seabeyond]

26. and the bottom line in her article is worth is in attractiveness.

that is what her feminine and all of herself is about.... attractiveness. that is it.

all of this, being a woman, really is not so hard. kinda comes naturally.

[EFerrari]

28. LOL.

[DefenseLawyer]

31. Maude Lebowski was a feminist

and she found sex to be a natural, zesty enterprise.

[seabeyond]

33. when did we decide feminism = hate sex? women who are in their own are more apt to

be comforted with sex.

another way to attack feminism.

[DefenseLawyer]

43. Whoa, take it easy there pilgrim

It's a line from a movie.

[seabeyond]

46. ok. so. a meme that feminist doesnt like sex. and culturally promoted.

i am not suppose to call bullshit cause it is a line in a movie?

[DefenseLawyer]

47. You are free to be bitter about anything you want.

You are free to be pretentious and use the word "meme" whenever possible. Knock yourself out. Actually Maude Lebowski was herself debunking the "male myth" that feminists hate sex. Then again she isn't a real person. But hey, feel free to call for a boycott. You are most definitely saving the world from fictional characters in cult films. And not a moment too soon!

[seabeyond]

48. ah, so now i call bullshit on feminists dont like sex and i am "bitter"

do tell me.... since you know me so well, what i am "bitter" about

people use certain words with females to put them in their place and then grin like it is not obvious. but the stupid, pretty damn obvious since it is used all the fuckin time

so my bitterness

that you accuse me of

just what bitterness is this, pray tell.

[DefenseLawyer]

50. First of all

I wasn't making any comment about feminism at all. I was making fun of the entire discussion by making a somewhat obscure reference to a movie character in a comedic film that touched upon the issue of feminism v. feminine in a line in the film. And, as I said, in her own words the character debunked the "male myth that feminists hate sex". You obviously have not seen the film and did not appreciate the reference. Instead you immediately assumed that I was making some point (which I wasn't) and attacking you (which I most certainly wasn't) and responded in what you must admit was a most angry, albeit uninformed, tone. Until you just made reference to your gender I had no idea if you were male or female. I thought your reaction was, as Walter Sobchak might say "over the line", but I wouldn't assume any ability or desire to put you in your place, whatever place that might be. Pick your battles, my friend. This isn't one.

[omega minimo]

55. "making fun of the entire discussion by making a somewhat obscure reference to a movie character"

There's these things called "quote marks"

[DefenseLawyer]

69. Good grief

You need to get out more. Pick fewer fights and watch more movies.

[omega minimo]

70. You don't understand the use of quote marks? It's very simple and does make a difference.

:wow: you created the problem by not using them. Now you're still oblivious to the trouble you caused? Blaming others?

[DefenseLawyer]

79. If it were me

and I saw some nonsensical reference to "Maude Lebowski" and I had no worldly idea who that was or what the reference could possibly mean, (and if I cared at all- which is doubtful) I would google "Maude Lebowski" and perhaps even "Maude Lebowski a natural zesty enterprise" and discover that it is a character in a movie with a rather large cult following and the line is associated with the character's statement that "It's a male myth about feminists that we hate sex" and I would either laugh or say "what an idiot". What I wouldn't do is start attacking someone for something he didn't say or even imply and pick a fight where none existed because I didn't know what he was talking about. Buy hey it's a "Free Country" (note the liberal use of quotation marks). I really meant no offense, I don't think that feminists hate sex (neither did Maude) or love sex or need sex or anything. Honestly I have no opinion on the subject whatsoever.

[seabeyond]

81. my first post was a statement on feminism = hate sex. to have a thread on feminism

and use only that quote, implying ONE feminist likes sex, anyway... with the consistent meme feminist dont like sex, was questionable to say the least.

from their your "settle down pilgrim", was certainly condescending. a discussion that feminism doesnt = hate sex would have served well.

third post of yours states i am bitter.

a personal attack that you are clueless about, with the attempt to what, push a button of vulnerability or insecurity?

justify at will.

you can decide all you want i am bitter, angry, tone?.... when really you dont know squat as i sit in my home and type on my computer. they are guesses, projection?, whatever, but not a reality. just something you type on your computer in what i am guessing, your home.

do you get, how i know nothing about you, and i cannot tell you what you think, feel or experience, what your history is, who you are.

but you readily do it with me. now, how bright is that.

[omega minimo]

83. So it's the fault of readers of your quote without quote marks for not Googling to find out what you

might have meant................

A DefenseLawyer who takes NoResponsibility. :crazy:


"What I wouldn't do is start attacking someone for something he didn't say or even imply and pick a fight where none existed because I didn't know what he was talking about."

You did say something, or appear to, because you don't know how to use "quotes."

Then you did EXACTLY what you are saying you would not do, to seabeyond. Attacked, projected, picked a fight.

Why don't you just admit you made a mistake, caused the confusion, blamed others for it and learned from the whole mess? Accept that not everyone shares your "obscure" cultural references or should go out of their way to sort out your meaning for you.

[omega minimo]

54. Perhaps you're "bitter" about how obvious his stupid strawman was

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

60. *sigh*.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

66. lol

:hi:

[omega minimo]

53. What a load of horse hockey. Loaded it up and used some non-excuse to drop it

on whoever got in your way. SOS. :boring:

[Gwendolyn]

49. And a fantastische movie it is! One great line after another from start to finish.

I love John Goodman with a passion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED4VL7W6VdQ

:D

[omega minimo]

52. There's these things called "quote marks"

[fishwax]

80. I don't get how anyone could interpret your post to be arguing that feminists hate sex

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

82. why would anyone have to say that any woman thought sex was good?

why would we have to clarify that at least one feminist likes sex?

[omega minimo]

85. Lush Windbag can take a lot of credit. "Feminazis" and all his tripe.

[fishwax]

86. that seems to me to be a counterpoint to that suggestion

The way I read it, the article in the OP suggested that feminism and sexiness were incompatible, and the reference to the Big Lebowski was simply offering a lighthearted counter to that. Perhaps I missed something, but that's how it seemed to me :shrug:

[omega minimo]

95. Not everyone is familiar with the same cultural references, assumed by the poster, who doesn't

understand how to use "quote marks."

Rather than make clear it's a quote from somewhere, he expects others to Google his intent. :shrug:

[omega minimo]

84. the other poster's catapult was loaded and the shot landed on SB

:shrug:

[fishwax]

88. well, I'm speaking only to this post about The Big Lebowski

I'm not defending any of the other comments in the subthread.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

94. OIC. Well that post presented the two as if mutually exclusive.

[fishwax]

102. I read it as just the opposite

It was demonstrating that they aren't mutually exclusive by providing a specific example. That seemed to me to be the poster's intention. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Gwendolyn]

32. This lady is the stand-up comic of self-help. I guess people don't realize that.

You're supposed to read this tongue-in-cheek stuff and laugh.

She also likes to make up new word-isms (like do-it instead of die-t.) A lot of that is supposed to be for chuckles too. That's what her schtick is, on top of the pop culture, self-help thing.

[seabeyond]

34. sexism, objectification, making women less... none of it matters. you are there to tell us silly

women to lighten up... how foolish we are.

well, thank you gwen, in all your wisdom.

[Gwendolyn]

36. Can't see you, so this is worthless if posted at me. Why not speak to the crowd at large?

[seabeyond]

38. Why not speak to the crowd at large?... but, i did. nt

[Gwendolyn]

39. Hee hee... because you know I have you on ignore, now you're going to post at me night and day.

Cause it's the only way you can ever make a point. When no one responds to it. Have fun silly one. :hi:

[seabeyond]

40. posting blind gwen? like that is a new concept for you. ignore me already..... nt

[omega minimo]

51. You can't have seabeyond on Ignore -- you're replying to her post.

:crazy:

[Gwendolyn]

37. Delete... saying it once was enough.

[ismnotwasm]

41. Oh for fucks sake

Being "Feminine" is relative and mostly a social construct. Feminism is an applied philosophy, ideology, way of life and a profound and valuable form of social activism

As an ardent feminist, the least of my concerns is when I choose to shave my legs before I wear a skirt or the fact I wear lip gloss and earrings. Should I have feminist guilt because I love bath bombs? Should I feel unattractive because you couldn't drag me into some place to get a manicure or a pedicure, or that I 'do' my own hair? (waste of fucking money but I'm certainly not going to condemn someone else for it) Worse, should I feel guilty because I love my body, all parts of it (oh yes I do) and I'm not a damaged and insecure person that needs this particular dumb fuck to tell me how to feel good about all of my self? That feminism taught me how to do that before I was 25 years old?

What an asshole.

I'm far more concerned with inequities in pay, reproductive rights, human rights, and the destructive objectification of the female body. The constant selling the female body as a commodity or using it simply to sell something else.

Jesus Christ on a stick I get sick of people parsing this shit.

My husband is well aware he's married to a feminist and had been for nearly 20 years. He likes it. Big burly guy like that. Surprise, surprise he's as secure in his own "masculinity" as I am in my feminism. Go figure.

[seabeyond]

42. so right on. a continue flow of bullshit on what women are suppose to be

per others definition.

[varelse]

98. Recommended

...damn it!

well I would if I could :thumbsup:

[seabeyond]

99. she is good, isnt she. lol. nt

[LeftinOH]

44. Was this article reprinted from a 1970 issue of Cosmopolitan?

[REP]

56. Aren't my boobs and vag feminine enough? Do I have to put doilies on 'em?

[Luminous Animal]

61. Oh, I love this!

[liberal_at_heart]

65. lol. I love it. +1

[LeftyMom]

58. I must be one of those "controlling, snarky" feminists then.

I'd sooner replace my breakfast cereal with broken glass than get my nails done, because I actually use my hands to do work.

[seabeyond]

59. lmao.... lol. i hear ya

hubby does the bubble baths and massage, i jump in for the sport. what does that say.... i wonder

[liberal_at_heart]

62. There is a problem with that

No one is saying women can't be feminine. The problem is is that if you're not feminine then society rejects you. That is what goes against feminist values.

[seabeyond]

63. point. i hadnt even thought about that

but true enough.

[Darth_Kitten]

64. Oh, God(dess), YES!!!!! Just look at me, babe.

:evilgrin:

[omega minimo]

67. Females are feminine by definition. Males can be feminists, too. Not everyone wants to be Barbie.

[seabeyond]

68. god forbid, too much work. lol. bully for those that want to be.

but those of us that dont want to be, really dont want to be. there is not the "envious" that is projected at women. i am more than content with the choices i have made.

[omega minimo]

71. All women are beautiful. Perhaps the innate feminine is part of it.

Men are beautiful too........

At the gym this week, a class of middled aged/older women finished, walking the locker room in towels or nothing, stripped down to basics, many with short hair, various levels of fitness, invigorated from water aerobics, no one preening, everyone with a different shape, different style when they dressed.

They were all beautiful and feminine, the female form as it survives the trials of this life. Not one was a Barbie.

[seabeyond]

72. see, and i was thinking accessories.

purse, shoes matching, make up in place, put together. matching car, lol.

barbie is about body. silly me... lol.

[omega minimo]

73. Good point.

I was noticing how the little patches of flub here or dimples there or age or sag or anything detracted from their female beauty. More to the point, no one is shaped The Same, no single standard. Think that's what I meant about Barbie, the generic stamped out "perfect" female hourglass.

You're right, all the "right" clothes and accessories are the veneer that goes over the form, eh?

[ismnotwasm]

92. No one is shaped the same, true

But I always find that there really isn't that much difference in bodies. Naked is naked, and naked is pretty damn vulnerable no matter what shape one is in. So my thing is, to appreciate what allows me to experience the world, appreciate my body and care for it. One thing I love about working with mostly women is when we talk about our bodies we might complain about this or that, but generally the women I work with don't buy into the existence of perfect form bullshit at all. Thank God.

More people should be naked more often perhaps, so we quite judging the covered outsides so much.

Even having to bring up barbie in the same sentence with the "Perfect" feminine form is troubling, don't you think? Nothing perfect about her. (I fucking hate barbie anyway, but not as much as I fucking hate BRATS dolls)

[omega minimo]

96. You're right. It's convenient shorthand

from experience in California, where there are so many plastic, fake blondes that all look exactly the same. They even rove in packs. It's the cloning aspect that I think of when I say "Barbie:" cliche, cloned, plastic, assembly line beauty for the cameras and the tacky film industry.

[krabigirl]

75. She gets it completely wrong.

Yes, I do think women need to connect with our femininity more often, but that comes from within. It has nothing to do with getting a manicure. She enjoys the manicure because she is able to sit still and relax and be introspective.

[Gwendolyn]

77. I think that's what she meant, in a self-helpy kind of way. She's big on meditation...

as a way of empowering oneself. Also, this is an article that was written for Oprah magazine. I think she was attempting to appeal to the kind of woman who feels she really hasn't benefited all that much from the concept of feminism. In the sense that she has been told she must do it all... work like a dog all week, take care of children and a home, all on her own, in order to prove she's worthy. Everyone here has projected their own schtick onto the words, but it was essentially written for Oprah readers who probably appreciate it.

[Pithlet]

87. I think the point is that there's really nothing wrong with getting a manicure.

She has a point that feminism has really gotten a bad rap, because it has. I think her piece was really a clunky way of saying that. I kind of took it as a tongue in cheek call to arms to rescue its reputation. I'm not sure I agree with the knee jerk reaction it's getting. For one thing, I think it's possible to be a girlie girl "barbie doll" who loves manicures and fashion and still be a feminist. I'm the type that rarely goes out of the house without makeup on myself. I've always been a weird nerd/barbie hybrid, so I guess I can see both sides.

[Gwendolyn]

91. I'm gonna go ahead and agree with you completely. You articulated it very well! n/t

[omega minimo]

76. Fucking Clueless

"Almost from the introduction of the word "feminism" into our world, the definition has become corroded to mean something less than complimentary than its original intent. Somewhere along the line, to be a feminist started to mean a woman who's basically unattractive both in looks and spirit. I find this negative connotation to be shameful and highly unhelpful. Women could truly benefit from finding a more inspiring word than "feminism" to stand by, as well as stand for, when seeking to become our most powerful and successful selves. We don't have to make a choice between feminine or powerful and successful. We can be all those things.

"With this in mind, I'd like to put forth that starting today, the word "feminism" be updated to become the new word "feminine-ism." My goal is to inspire women to embrace being their fullest potential selves — feminine, sexy, warm, loving — everything the word "feminine" stands for, alongside strong qualities like powerful and successful."

[27inCali]

78. feminism is about a woman's freedom to choose

either to be effeminate or not.

if a woman wants to take on a pretty stereotypical role and it makes her happy -that too is feminism.

it's about the freedom to be who you want to be with no limitations on either side.

[Sparkly]

89. A quote from a 1906 book

"I'm sure you're smiling now just for the joy of knowing that you have at last found something that is going to make you a new woman; not the mannish new woman about whom we have heard so much, nor the new woman with all the sweetness crushed out; but the sweet, pure, healthy, wholesome and fascinating woman with more of love and sympathy -- the dainty woman whom everyone loves."

(From "My Lady Beautiful" by Alice M. Long, 1906.)

From a great little book of terrible excerpts called "Advice from the Attic."

The more things change....

[Gwendolyn]

90. Well, except that this one also wrote a book for men on how to find the clitoris...

and what to do with it. Also "How to Get Ahead in Business Without a Penis," and how to get rid of the shitty men in your life. "You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince, but no need to kiss pigs/dogs/jackases."

So there is a slight difference and a little bit of change...

[JerseygirlCT]

93. Boy that's dopey

And it certainly seems the author hasn't the slightest clue about what feminism means.

[burning rain]

100. I didn't know Andrea Tantaros used a pen name.

.

[varelse]

101. GAH

I made the mistake of googling that name :puke:

[mzmolly]

103. What a stupid f*cking question from the author of this piece.

I thought we were beyond such nonsense.