Good Germans?" Majority of Americans Favor Torture for Detroit Underwear Bomber

[Mari333]

Good Germans?" Majority of Americans Favor Torture for Detroit Underwear Bomber

Posted by Joshua Holland, AlterNet at 12:00 PM on December 31, 2009.



Here's a poll asking Americans if they approve of their government violating its own long-standing laws and treaty commitments in order to commit one of the worst crimes against humanity. Sadly, a majority said 'yes.'

(Via TPM):

Fifty-eight percent (58%) of U.S. voters say waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques should be used to gain information from the terrorist who attempted to bomb an airliner on Christmas Day.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 30% oppose the use of such techniques, and another 12% are not sure.








http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/joshua/144886/










god help us.

[barbtries]

1. that is really sick.

ain't no gawd to help us we got to help ourselves. i'll start with my son, who's asking what? as i react to this post.

but. isn't rasmussen a right wing polling site? whether or not it really reflects the greater population of this country, it's sickening.

[glowing]

2. This is one of the reasons I am tired of being "American".

We are not the best, number one, or some special race. We are just people who happened to be born to parents who live here or travelled here. The "American Dream" is nothing more than a dream. The reality is that we live in one large connected world.. and we should honor and respect one another and help one another achieve together... time for the chest beaters to sit on down.

[LouKneeLib]

3. It's sad....

We are all a product of our environment. However, I always have to laugh like hell when Germany (of all places) is ever portrayed as some sort of moral authority.

[HeresyLives]

8. Where did it say that?

It says a majority of Americans are 'good Germans.' That's a shot, not a compliment.

[LouKneeLib]

26. Exactly

I casually mentioned that I always have a laugh over Germany being portrayed as some moral authority on the world stage. It was simply a touche regarding the "shot" as you described it.

[tblue37]

29. The term "good Germans" refers to the ordinary German citizens, who were not

members of Hitler's brownshirts or SS, who nevrtheless willingly, without pressure, carried out his policies on abusing and ultimately murdering the Jews. The point is that they were the "salt of the earth" types, not the sort of people one expects to be sadistic monsters, and yet they were capable of condoning and even committing terrible atrocities.

The term comes from the title of a book on the subject: Hitler's Good Germans.

Calling Americans "good Germans" is NOT a compliment to either Americans or the "good Germans"!

[LouKneeLib]

60. Duh

The good salt of the earth folks who kept their heads down, wore a smile, and hell maybe even went to a parade. I'm well aware of the term.

My comment was albeit off topic, and more contemporary in nature - I just find it ironic that their are some that would paint present day Germany as some sort of moral authority.

The good Germans of WWII were simply enablers of destruction and dehumanization. That's how the author of the piece intended for the allusion to be used, not in some contemporary sense. I took it there :-)

[Forkboy]

9. It's something in humans, not just Americans.

We may be the most visible face of this thinking because we live here, but humans seem to be humans the world over. Frightened, insecure and easily molded.

What's real estate on the moon going for these days?

[tbyg52]

12. Sad but true. Doesn't make me *feel* any better about "us," though. nt

[Forkboy]

15. I know.

Sorry. :hug:

[tbyg52]

17. A new year's hug for the human condition to you as well.

:hug:

[depakid]

36. Sorry to say- but among western nations- America is rather exceptional in this

as evidenced not only by how easy it was to turn the country into a nation of torturers- and war criminals- but also in the fact that America has built and maintains by far the world's largest (and most expensive) prison system incarcerating more of its citizens per capita AND in raw numbers than China, India or Russia.

The underlying reason of course is irrational fear and in order to overcome it (assuming most Americans would even want to) they first have to acknowledge the extent of their own cowardice- that they're become a people so afraid of their own shadows that they all too willingly dispensed with their highest principles-

And those upheld in the rest of the civilized world under international law.

[tbyg52]

37. >>The underlying reason of course is irrational fear

The underlying reason is powerful interests - irrational fear is the tool they use.

[depakid]

41. That, too

Though for whatever reason(s), Americans over the past several decades have become a lot more susceptible to it than people in other western nations.

[NMMNG]

4. Ugh

People make me sick sometimes.

[Quantess]

5. Personally, I'm not concerned about the POS's state of comfort.

However, torturing him would be gratuitous, unnecessary, and would only worsen international relations.

Edit to add: I doubt many Americans feel too bad about Bernie Madoff getting the crap beat out of him, either.

[tbyg52]

10. >>I doubt many Americans feel too bad about Bernie Madoff getting the crap beat out of him, either.

You're wrong, Dr. Brewster!

I like my justice of the non-vigilante variety. I don't think prison rape is particularly amusing, either.

[Quantess]

21. You and I have similar opinions about justice, then.

Except maybe you felt more grief for Bernie Madoff than I did upon hearing about his beating (I felt indifferent).

But, I would bet money that a good percentage of Americans would say they would like to see Madoff tortured. It's how most Americans are.

[tbyg52]

28. You're right, I put the wrong quote in my subject.

>>Personally, I'm not concerned about the POS's state of comfort.

I'm not concerned about his having a featherbed and champagne, but I am concerned about reasonable human amenities. Decent food and shelter, medical care and pain control, opportunity to get exercise and occupation for the mind. To that extent, I *am* concerned about even a POS's state of comfort. Not for *his* sake, but for mine.

[rantormusing]

40. I don't think what happened to Madoff was part of official policy

If only the other cases of prison abuse were so publicized and condemned.

[izquierdista]

50. It is "official policy"

For by their lack of doing anything to control it, they condone it.

[Forkboy]

6. First order of business: work on the not sures.

Second order of business: Hunker down.

[Unvanguard]

7. Profoundly scary. n/t

[noise]

11. Is this really surprising?

Torture has been sold as necessary to attain crucial life saving intel. The testimony of FBI agent Ali Soufan made the news cycle for a couple of days. Soufan stated that torture didn't work, led to decreased intel sharing between the CIA and FBI (due to Mueller's good decision to keep the FBI out of torture interrogations) and was actually counterproductive (i.e. false confessions leading to wild goose chases, false confessions used to justify politically motivated policies, use of torture increasing terrorist recruiting and putting soldiers at unnecessary risk of retaliation).

We are told that it would be UNFAIR to prosecute anyone involved with the torture program at any level. After all they were acting in good faith to prevent follow up attacks. Of course (as noted above) the good faith rationale doesn't hold up when one examines the facts (as opposed to the fearmongering, super patriot propaganda).

In summary torture is:

1)illegal

2)counterproductive

3)ineffective as a reliable interrogation method

Despite this, citizens still believe the propaganda. IMO this demonstrates how relentless the propaganda has been. The media is content to pretend that uncritical acceptance of state conduct is good journalism. Case in point, the use of the term "enhanced interrogation."

[tbyg52]

14. Not at all, unfortunately. nt

[Solly Mack]

13. Sick puppies.

Sick, sick, sick.

But seriously, if war criminals in government can get away with their crimes, why would people think it a bad thing to do?

It must be OK...we got away with it already...so keep doing it kind of thinking going on

[noise]

18. The Bush administration made the case

that they needed police state tactics to prevent terrorist attacks. They were successful in making this case. That is why we now have counterterrorism policies that violate laws.

Is their premise true? No. But it sure sounds true with wall to wall fearmongering and "intel experts" claiming it is true.

[Solly Mack]

19. Yep....that's narrative they created. Criminal POS.

[noise]

22. And when citizens object to police state tactics

they are reminded that they should shut up because they might hurt CIA morale.

Talk about arrogance.

[Solly Mack]

24. Fuck the CIA....in good faith , of course. All bad/criminal things are magically made better

if done in good faith.

[noise]

30. Or the catchall "incompetence"

It was bad legal advice. Iraq was a mistake. The CIA forgot to share intel with the FBI. The CIA didn't think destroying the tapes was illegal.

Nobody does anything improper. Just a series of blunders.

[Solly Mack]

32. and some idiots actually buy into all that bovine caca

[marmar]

16. Sadly, people are ignorant and reactionary......

It's some deeply depressing shite.

[TexasObserver]

20. In spite of the fact that we know that's not the most effective strategy.

When a person is tortured, they say whatever their torturer wants them to say. That's why the Bush administration never wanted for terror alert material. They could always believe one of the outrageous plots "revealed" by their torturing prisoners.

Would a man who tortures to get information be capable of doing so without providing cues to the prisoner as to the direction he wishes the "confession" to go?

[noise]

23. As Rachel Maddow reported yesterday

The "urgent intel" they wanted was to link al Qaeda to Iraq/Hussein.

[Enrique]

25. they don't want to tie Jack Bauer's hands

he's trying to protect us, and the suits at HQ are always tying his hands!

[tbyg52]

33. That show makes me wonder about the first amendment. - not really, but

they should be ashamed of themselves.

[whistler162]

27. Yea right.... what 5 people plus a gopher where polled?

are you this gullible?

[noise]

31. Two words

Sarah Palin.

[tbyg52]

35. Uh, those numbers don't surprise me a bit, just based on my personal observations. nt

[AzDar]

34. They are un-American idiots.

[walldude]

38. I have an idea.

Why don't we take anyone who thinks torture is a good idea and torture them. If they are right wingers we could torture them into saying that Liberals are the greatest people on earth and that Obama is the greatest president to ever live.

Maybe then they'll get it. Maybe then they will admit that torture does not provide reliable information. Fools.

[rantormusing]

39. It's kind of a sloppy answer,

but i blame television and movies. The messages coming across nowadays is depressing, it isn't all on cable/network news. Not to say that getting ideas from shows and books is wrong, but IMO there is a clear movement advocating pro-force, inhumane messages on the television that is popular

[Vinnie From Indy]

43. You are right!

Americans have become very disconnected and ignorant of their own rights. Part of it is exactly as another poster mentioned. There are interests in this country that use fear to manipulate the masses and attain power. This is nothing new. Instilling fear has been the mainstay of dictators and repressive governments since time began.

Part of the problem, I believe, is that schools seem not place much emphasis on teaching civics and the Constitution anymore. The subject is hardly touched after primary school. It should be a core class in high school and college IMHO.

I have yet to meet an advocate of torture that actually knows anything about the subject.

[rantormusing]

46. That's true

After eighth grade we heard no more about it, until a junior level course in college which was easier than the eighth grade material. Also if more emphasis was placed on reading in school and at home, there would be a better chance of attaining the comprehension skills to read between the lines.

[MisterP]

42. it may be the same process that sold the US on firebomb raids on cities and Hiroshima

H. Bruce Franklin's "War Stars" notes that in September 1939, Roosevelt pleaded with Britain, Germany, France, etc. to refrain from bombing civilians and unfortified cities. Over 1938-42, near-universal condemnation of urban bombing shifted, from top to bottom, to near-universal approval. Franklin blames cult leader Billy Mitchell for selling the bomber as a superweapon destined for a transcendent role in warfare, able to make the troop situation on the ground totally irrelevant. Victory would come quickly by annihilating cities and breaking enemy civilians' morale. As the US Army ground through Italy and the Pacific, it became tied up with their lives: stopping the atrocities would imperil American/British lives.

By 1943 Harper's magazine wrote, "It seems brutal to be talking about burning homes. But we are engaged in a life and death struggle for national survival, and we are therefore justified in taking any action which will save the lives of American soldiers and sailors." Leatherneck in 1945 wrote, "the origin of the plague, the breeding ground around the Tokyo area, must be completely annihilated." Paul V. McNutt favored "the extermination of the Japanese people in toto." Alexander P. de Seversky's book had a terrific picture of what enemy bombers would do to our cities if America doesn't do it to theirs first, since Japan's goal was to "destroy our civilization," so our goal is "to eliminate rather than take over Japan." John Dower's War Without Mercy covers this dark side of a "good war."

[Vinnie From Indy]

48. The concept of Total War is very complicated IMHO

There is no doubt that some of the bombing of JApan and Germany was done NOT to save the lives of troops, but as retribution for previous attacks on Allied cities. Dresden etc.

It is impossible to completely ignore or declare irrelevant the sentiment that if, for example, the war was prolonged long enough for Germany to harness and deploy nuclear weapons during WWII that Total War is not only acceptable, but the moral choice. A Hitler led Germany with nukes at the end of the war would have made the carnage of the previous war years look like child's play.

[phasma ex machina]

44. Germans rank as the largest ethnic group in America.

[shadowknows69]

62. And I'm among them, but I'm damn sure not a "Good German"

[Parker CA]

45. Coming from Rasmussen I'm surprised the percentage isn't higher. NT

[seabeyond]

47. i use to argue, how could germans allow what happened. last decade and surprisingly du

i see how it happens.

[Vinnie From Indy]

52. Two interesting books about Germans and the Holocaust are

Chris Brown's - Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland

and

Daniel Goldhagen's - Hitler's Willing Executioners

The books are somewhat in opposition to each other, but they describe how and why ordinary, educated Germans would participate in killing millions of Jews and others.

In the end, if the ingredients are there, it is not that difficult to get large numbers of people to abandon their ideas of decency and morality.

[seabeyond]

56. interesting. thank you

and we see it here today.

[barbtries]

57. i'm reading ordinary men

it's hard.

[Faryn Balyncd]

49. K & R . Thanks for post.

[BunkerHill24]

51. What a disgrace....

Yeah, of course they hate us for our freedoms :sarcasm:

[Warren DeMontague]

53. I've seen people here on DU suggest that "the rich" should be castrated & have forced abortions

if they try to have more than one child.

So, yes, there are some seriously sick fucks... all over the place.

[mmonk]

54. That's what happens when the government breaks its own

laws and those of humanity. One political party does it and the other political party doesn't do anything to bring justice. The people are scared to death outside of reason by the government and think it is ok because nothing is done and thus it must be fine.

[Generator]

55. Be sure to send your get well soon card to Limbaugh for this

among other things. I'm sure this poll is making him feel better already.

[foxfeet]

58. One would think that a self-inflicted fried dick would be torture enough

especially in a young man, not to mention the failure of his enterprise and the ensuing shit storm of incarceration and trial.

[JDPriestly]

59. I wonder if the majority of Americans favor beating their children too.

It's a much more common release technique for parents in the U.S. than you might realize.

Once my first question has been answered, I would like to know how many of the people who think this guy should be tortured were hit, spanked, verbally abused or beaten as children.

This hijacker will probably become very, very cooperative if he isn't already. Torture would be counterproductive. That's my best guess.

Our whole nation needs anger management training. The amount of violence that exhibits itself in our society is far too great.

[Bluerthanblue]

61. karma's a bitch-

we suffer when we allow/encourage the suffering of others.

I know this is an uncomfortable opinion to hear, but I believe the selfish, manipulative actions our 'nation' and corporate interests have used over the last century, have fueled the desire for people to inflict pain and suffering on the US. Our use of torture in return, will only keep this asinine circle game turning.

Humans may be very intelligent, but we are also inexplicably stupid.