Something you all should know about the attorney on that Christmas day flight....

[TwixVoy]

He has ties to Alex Jones (in fact if you search Youtube you can find a video interview of him on the Alex Jones show) and was involved in the "9/11 was an inside job" movement.

I'm not saying it's not possible it WAS an inside job, and not saying that he has an agenda in this situation..... but just something to keep in mind when considering his statements.

Here is a link of his interview with Alex Jones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM2yiohmPEI

Watch the whole thing... Alex Jones has too big of a mouth at one point in the interview and lets it be known this guy was in the "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy group.

Be aware you will have to look over in the video list on the right to watch parts 2 and 3 of the interview.

If you find this information important please kick and recommend this thread. A lot of DUers are apparently not aware of this guys connection to government conspiracy groups.

[Ian David]

1. If true, then that would seriously discredit The Man In The Suit story.

Be nice if you had a link or something.

[TwixVoy]

3. Link is here

Here is a link of his interview with Alex Jones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM2yiohmPEI

Watch the whole thing... Alex Jones has too big of a mouth at one point in the interview and lets it be known this guy was in the "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy group.

Be aware you will have to look over in the video list on the right to watch parts 2 and 3 of the interview.

[Ian David]

5. Thanks. This is important. It means the Man In A Suit Theory can be dismissed out of hand...

... along with the Invisible Jewish Elves and Robot Planes From The Future theories.

Alex Jones is a charlatan, a kook, and a right-wing thug.

[leveymg]

30. This no more discredits him than one should believe his story because he was interviewed on CNN

Classic case of discrediting the messenger because of the medium in which he appears, which is the error in argumentation of guilt by association.

He's been interviewed by many media, and he is generally regarded as sober and credible. Until I see some proof to the contrary, this is no reason to dismiss his account out of hand.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Haven't believed him since I first read his story

This makes sense. Alex Jones is a nitwit and his tin foil hat is too tight.

[TexasObserver]

4. He joined DU (allegedly him), and he's a member here now.

Why don't you go talk to him?

He posted to one of my posts in LBN not two hours ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4203918&mesg_id=4207329

I don't know anything about the guy.

(edited to add "allegedly him" in the subject line)

[snagglepuss]

6. How do you know it's the actual person and not someone

impersonating him?:shrug:

[TexasObserver]

7. I don't, but he has a website already. Why don't you go ask him?

I'm not interested in questioning him. I'll read everything that comes out and decide for myself who and what I believe. Whoever he is, he's posted 24 times here, and the only one I've read is the one he posted to me a couple of hours ago in LBN. That means there are 23 other posts of his out there, so they should provide some insight. I'm not compelled to either believe him or disbelieve him. At this point, I assume everyone is telling some truth and everyone is telling some untruth.

I never assume anyone is who they say they are on the internets. Today's revelations at DU prove how wrong many can be about who or what a person really is on the internet.

[snagglepuss]

9. The only thing that interests me at this point is to see the CCTV videos from

Schinpol which will determine whether Haskell is honest.

[TexasObserver]

11. Yes, actual video will tell the tale.

Practically all I know of this guy is what I've read here, or on his link (allegedly him).

People see what they expect to see, and that explains why many eyewitness reports are wrong about many things.

[Michigan-Arizona]

16. His law office is in Taylor, Michigan

I grew up about a mile from where he has his law office.

[jberryhill]

17. Michigan, not Texas /nt

[leveymg]

32. The FBI interview reports of the airline manager and airport security are also important,

assuming Haskell's account is accurate.

[tkmorris]

10. "Today's revelations at DU prove how wrong many can be about who

or what a person really is on the internet."

This intrigues me. What did I miss today on DU?

[TexasObserver]

12. There were some revelations on a thread.

A very long thread about a recently tombstoned former DUer. Turns out she had a sister who posted some enlightening things. I'm sure you can find it.

[struggle4progress]

8. I had been wondering why PrisonPlanet was so hot on this story!

[TexasObserver]

13. How does one know what Alex Jones is saying without listening to him?

I never understand any posts that talk about what Alex Jones and prison planet are saying, because I can never understand why anyone would ever listen to or read such nonsense.

[struggle4progress]

14. I read fast, and in a day on the web I can skim hundreds of pages when deciding what to post.

For blatantly ideological site, I may get a feel for the POV in less time than it took for the page to load. I sometimes have fifty or sixty pages open at a time when thinking about a story. Knowing something about the enemy is part of the fight: if you ignore them completely, the troglodytes will sneak out of their caves at night and bash in your head with rocks while you sleep

[TexasObserver]

18. I don't pay much attention to the lunatic fringe because they're the lunatic fringe.

If reading them helps you feel you're doing something, go for it.

[struggle4progress]

20. I think I'll mostly agree with that. And here's the little tidbit this thread gives us on Haskell:

he's helping wingnut kooks push their conspiracy theories. Citing -- in a metaphorical manner only, of course -- the old Texas frontier slogan Ride with outlaws, hang with outlaws, I'd say we're pretty close with a verdict here for Mr. Haskell

[TexasObserver]

22. I'll wait until I can sift through and see what I think.

I don't find his story logically faulty. It's entirely possible someone was helping the perp on the other end, whether because it was their job, or they were just being friendly, or they were involved. The facts could stand as alleged and still not mean anything significant.

As for the incident after the landing, the ID of the man who had been on the flight, I'm more inclined to believe Haskell than the official story, at this point. Again, I find it logical that a second person involved could have been on the flight.

I don't ever believe anyone's story early in an event's outfall. Stories are controlled by those who have reason to control it, and that means information that comes out early can be very wrong.

[struggle4progress]

23. I don't find his story plausible, but your POV is fair enough. And here are two links I posted

in another thread on the second arrest:

... Earlier this week, Chief Customs and Border Patrol Officer Ron Smith said a second person handcuffed was from a different flight. However, Thursday night Smith confirmed that a passenger from flight 253 was handcuffed, but wasn't arrested or detained. Smith said another report, which he didn't access earlier, shows that a passenger from flight 253 "did have a canine alert to his carry on baggage in the baggage area" of the Customs and Border Patrol facility. That person was handcuffed and "escorted to an interview room where he was interviewed and searched," according to Smith. Nothing was found during the search and Smith said the man was given an explanation for why he was searched and then allowed to leave the facility with other passengers from flight 253. Smith said the passenger wouldn't be identified because he was not arrested or detained ...
Posted: Friday, 01 January 2010 12:37PM
Feds: Second Person Handcuffed After Airline Terror Attack
http://www.wwj.com/Feds--Second-Person-Handcuffed-After-Airline-Terro/6017131

... Ronald G. Smith, chief U.S. Customs and Border Protection officer in the Detroit area, sent an email to The Detroit News late Thursday apologizing that the information on the passenger -- which was reported to federal investigators by a pair of Taylor attorneys who were passengers on the flight -- was not made available earlier ... In previous interviews Smith said the Haskells' account was a composite of two events that occurred at the airport around the time passengers got off Flight 253 ...
• A man from another flight -- Northwest Flight 249, also from Amsterdam -- was arrested at the jetway as he got off his flight and would have been led handcuffed through the area where the Flight 253 passengers were gathered, Smith said. The name of the man was not released, Smith added, because he was arrested on suspicion of immigration violations, not on a criminal matter.
• A sniffer dog reacted to agricultural or food products inside the bag of a third man ... Smith said. He was questioned and may have had some items confiscated but was not arrested, Smith said ...
Last Updated: January 01. 2010 4:37PM
Customs official confirms report of 2nd man held from Flight 253
Jennifer Chambers and Paul Egan / The Detroit News
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7374509&mesg_id=7376192

I'm not sure my four-paragraph-limit excerpts capture the stories entirely, so you may want to click the links for more detail

[TexasObserver]

25. I read both of those in full earlier tonight.

They could either be an official clearly up something that was confused earlier, or making up new parts, to fit the new developments.

I don't automatically believe what the government says about events such as this. There are legitimate reasons to want to hold back information found in the investigation. If there is a second guy in custody they think is involved, he's being questioned somewhere.

[leveymg]

31. Haskell refers to events BEFORE Flt. 253 departed Amsterdam. This stuff is about after it landed

How is this relevant?

[Turborama]

33. In both of his half hour long interviews with Jones he talks about events before and after

the failed attack.

[struggle4progress]

34. Haskell has made claims about both Amsterdam and Detroit. Regarding Amsterdam, he claims

he saw SharpDresser tell TicketClerk that UnderwearBomber had no passport; that story seems unlikely because (1) the airline would have a financial disincentive for transporting an undocumented passenger whom they would immediately have to transport back; (2) both the Nigerian and Dutch authorities say that UnderwearBomber produced a valid passport in their countries during his Ghana-Nigeria-Netherlands-US trip; and (3) Haskell's account is not corroborated by anyone, including his wife who was with him at the time. Regarding Detroit, he (and at least one other passenger) say that a third person OrangeMan was taken in handcuffs from the baggage area; this is true, though Haskell wants to make much of the fact that an official spokesperson seems to have originally confused that detention with the arrest of a passenger from another flight; the official spokesperson later agreed that a second passenger on the flight had been detained briefly, but for other reasons, before being released. Haskell packaged the alleged passport incident in Amsterdam (for which he is the only "witness") together with the confusion about the baggage area detention, as evidence of a government conspiracy that he has since been peddling in rightwing venues

[leveymg]

35. If the sharpdressed man part is true, it casts doubt on the official accounts. Let's see the CCTV

before we call him a liar and a right-wing conspiracy nut.

[struggle4progress]

36. The silliness of the suggestion, and its huff-n-puff nature, should be apparent:

(1) the man alleges a conspiracy between airline employees, airport officials, Dutch counter-intelligence, and American anti-terrorist specialists;
(2a) if hours of time-stamped video, showing his story false, became available, the expected conspiracy-theory retort will be that the video has been faked and/or edited as part of the alleged conspiracy;
(2b) if video of the ticket desk does not exist, then obviously it cannot be released, and the expected conspiracy-theory retort will be that authorities have destroyed or suppressed the video to continue the alleged conspiracy
(2c) if the Dutch, understandably, do not want to broadcast to the entire world the location of security cameras at Luchthaven Schiphol (and hence do not want to confirm or deny in public the existence of video showing the ticket desk), the expected conspiracy-theory retort will be that authorities have destroyed or suppressed the video to continue the alleged conspiracy;
(3) in conclusion: unless video were released that supported his story, the conspiracy-theorists will continue to howl about the alleged conspiracy

:zzz:

[leveymg]

38. You're reading WAY too much into his statements (and mine).

He says that the sharpdressed man talked the ticket counter clerk into having her manager decide whether to ticket the "Sudanese refugee" (Nigerian bomber). Haskell never saw the sharpdressed man again, and doesn't claim to know what happened to him or why they're withholding the CCTV footage. I haven't heard him speculate about why they're downplaying his startling account - I doubt he's used the word "conspiracy" to explain the motives of the four groups you rattled off. But, one can hardly blame him for drawing damning conclusions and reading something sinister into these events.

The longer the authorities hang onto the tape -- probably because they're trying to find the sharpdressed man before the tabloids do -- the more doubt will be cast on the official account. The guy may just be some well-intended do-gooder type trying to help someone who claims he's a poor Sudanese refugee who can't get onto the plane in time. Or, maybe not.

It's no secret that there are cameras all over the ticketing area where faces can be recorded from the front and both profiles, as well as behind the screens in the self-ticketing kiosks. They released the image below after 9/11 at Dulles Airport of a couple of the Flt. 77 hijackers - why not Amsterdam?

[struggle4progress]

40. No thanks: I don't want to play Huff-n-Puff

:hi:

[leveymg]

41. What do you call the game you have been playing?

:-) B-) :evilgrin: :toast: I'll buy the first round.

[Turborama]

43. He's saying this happened in the departure lounge (a.k.a. boarding gate) not 'the ticketing area'.

I do a lot of international flying and I can't remember seeing departure lounges/boarding gates covered with cameras. I do seem to remember cameras are in place at the entrance to the departure lounge, where you also have to go through another security check, after showing your boarding pass and passport. But, once you're in the departure lounge I don't remember being monitored by cameras while waiting to board.

So, according to Haskell's conspiracy theory, this "Indian guy" would have been allowed into the departure lounge with no boarding pass (remember, he wasn't on the flight) and the bomber got into the departure lounge but at the very last minute wasn't going to show the passport he had used to a) get through immigration b) check in and pick up his boarding pass and c) to get into the departure lounge.

Why would the terrorists have some "Indian guy" go through with the scene Haskell describes? It would have been a huge unnecessary gamble that could have jeopardized the whole mission right at the very last minute where passports are just glanced at and aren't even scanned.


BTW The picture you've provided is from an ATM.

[struggle4progress]

37. I will note further that any video is quite unlikely to contain audio, so Haskell's claims cannot be

proved by video, even if there were video apparently showing UnderpantsBomber and SomebodyElse together at the ticket counter

Kurt and Lori Haskell: We talked with a fellow Flight 253 passenger, but he saw something different
By Aaron Foley | MLive.com
January 02, 2010, 8:38PM
... Here's what Taylor said: "After we landed in Detroit I saw an older looking teenager who was African and looked NEARLY IDENTICAL to the terrorist bomber. Since he was a minor, and travelling alone, he was accompanied by an airport employee at all times. Kurt, this could have been the guy you saw in Amsterdam before we boarded" ...
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/01/kurt_and_lori_haskell_we_talke.html

So perhaps airport security video exists, showing UnderpantsBomber or someone who looks like UnderpantsBomber together with SomebodyElse, but since audio will be absent there will be no way to confirm the conversation that Haskell claims

[leveymg]

39. It's possible Haskell may have confused the two young Africans. But, why haven't the authorities

made that determination? That would be a rational explanation. If that were the case, and there was such a plausible explanation for mistaken identity, why haven't the authorities just reviewed the tapes -- released part of them showing the second African being led back into the manager's office -- and come out and said so?

[Subdivisions]

15. He was on CNN before he was on Jones' show. Isn't that

enough to discredit him before he even did the Jones show?

[TexasObserver]

19. I don't believe him or disbelieve him based upon his interviews.

Time will tell. Eye witness testimony is often wrong. People see what they think they're seeing, whether it's true or not.

[Turborama]

21. Haskell also went back to Alex Jones for another half hour interview the following day

As I pointed out a couple of days ago here (includes links to both interviews): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=277864&mesg_id=277975

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4203918&mesg_id=4205323

And here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4204158&mesg_id=4205268

He also says in the second 1/2 hour interview that he's going back on Sunday. He's clearly a big fan of Jones and his work.

[TexasObserver]

24. This is fair impeachment of the witness by revealing his biases.

I'll say again that I don't know if this guy is right about what he has claimed, but I don't rule out a witness simply because they have political leanings I don't like.

But eyewitness testimony is very suspect. It's often wrong, because people see what they think they're seeing, and that is controlled by who they are and their biases. A racist person will see things that are not there, and would swear to you that the man on the elevator was eyeballing their purse. If Haskell is predisposed to align events so that they prove a conspiracy, he will tend to see that in the world around him.

Time will tell.

[Turborama]

26. No-one on here *knows* if he's right

But the fact that he's a 911 conspiracy theorist and Infowars fan greatly diminishes his credibility on this matter. I'm agreeing with your main point, btw.

But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that he's right and some "Indian guy" (who wasn't on the flight but managed to get into the departure lounge) did say those things and the scene played out as he described. So what? It would mean that the planners for this attack were even more sophisticated (or stupid) than we thought, that's all. This is where the Alex Jones-iness comes into play. To make this a conspiracy theory worth taking to Alex Jones, he lets Jones imply that the whole thing was an inside job and the "Indian guy" was some kind of CIA handler.

Personally, I think that if they were that sophisticated and could get the terrorist through immigration (and the Indian guy into the departure lounge) but for some reason didn't want him to show the same passport to the flight crew at the departure lounge, they would have made sure he had 2 passports - one fake one real. Having an "Indian guy" go through with the scene Haskell describes would have been a huge gamble that could have jeopardized the whole mission right at the very last minute (hence the "or stupid" comment).

[Turborama]

27. Haskell's been interviewed by Andrew Brietbart, too

Instead of adding a live link, here's the Google search results: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=Andrew+Breitbart+kurt+haskell&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

It seems like freepers are huge fans of his story, too. Check out the second link "What do you think of Kurt Haskell's story?" here: http://www.google.com/search?q=free+republic+kurt+haskell&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

[struggle4progress]

42. Breitbart as guest host on the Dennis Miller show. That's pretty clear context.

[Turborama]

28. Haskell interviewed by an Alex Jones/Glenn BecKKK wannabe

Jack Blood interviews Kurt Haskell (part 1 of 5): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US47O1b7wgw

[BeFree]

29. Right

GWB had nothing to do with 9/11, or anything bad. So anyone attacking his government is not to be trusted. Got it. Thanks.

[Turborama]

44. Why won't Haskell release a diagram!?!

What we need is a diagram of the departure lounge drawn by Haskell that includes a) the security gate where everyone has to show their passports and boarding passes b) a stick man of himself exactly where he was in relation to what he says was going on c) where the camera was d) where all the other passengers were in relation to the incident he describes (in a departure lounge that was so crowded he and his wife had to sit on the floor).

Why won't Haskell release a diagram so we can all get a better picture of what he says went on?