No soldiers were killed in Iraq in December - the first month since 2003

[malaise]

with no combat deaths - according to BBC International.
Of course Iraqis continue to die.

[proteus_lives]

1. Killed by US soldiers?

Or by other Iraqis?

[malaise]

2. That'a a moot point to me

Over one million Iraqis are stone cold dead.

[Don Caballero]

6. Inflated and false numbers

Those numbers have been proven to be lies. The official count is somewhere closer to 10,000 Iraqi dead.

[malaise]

7. Sorry

I'll stick with those numbers from a credible source

[KG]

8. there is no 'official count'

nice try tho.

[G_j]

9. official?

:rofl:

[spanone]

11. here's my link, where's yours?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[malaise]

17. +1,000

Thanks :hi:

[polly7]

12. The prestigious British polling firm, Opinion Research Business, estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis h

Death Counter Explanation Page
What Just Foreign Policy’s Iraqi Death Estimator Is and Is Not

Since researchers at Johns Hopkins estimated that 601,000 violent Iraqi deaths were attributable to the U.S.-led invasion as of July 2006, it necessarily does not include Iraqis who have been killed since then. We would like to update this number both to provide a more relevant day-to-day estimate of the Iraqi dead and to emphasize that the human tragedy mounts each day this brutal war continues.

This daily estimate is a rough estimate. It is not scientific; for that, another study must be conducted. However, absent such a study, we think this constitutes a best estimate of violent Iraqi deaths that is certainly more reliable than widely cited numbers that, often for political reasons, ignore the findings of scientifically sound demographic studies.

In September 2007, a new scientific poll of Iraqis confirmed that the number dead is likely to be over a million. The prestigious British polling firm, Opinion Research Business, estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis had been killed violently since the U.S. invasion.

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/deathcount/explanation

[Don Caballero]

14. These numbers are based on poll statistics not facts

They poll households and figure out death tolls based on the polls. Not scientific at all.

[polly7]

19. Really? The Lancet is fairly respectable, I trust their numbers,

working with Iraqi physicians who have a pretty good idea of how many dead and dying they see, and villagers who bury their dead without even making it to hospital. Take into account also those who are so unrecognizeable and tossed into ditches, or piles of rubble and never recovered. I can't think of any reason to inflate the number of dead. "We don't do body counts" - that's always bothered me, that human beings in the ME aren't even given numbers let alone names and faces when they're killed horribly.

[spanone]

24. so what do you base your 'facts' on?

[malaise]

21. Some people hate facts

:hi:

[polly7]

15. Why would anyone inflate the numbers? nt.

[G_j]

16. waiting

for a link

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. And 10,000 is okay!

:sarcasm:

[Flaneur]

38. Please post a source for your numbers.

[Flaneur]

39. You are full of shit.

Iraq Body Count puts the civilian death toll at nearly 4,500 for last year alone. That's not including dead soldiers or other fighters. And that's for a year that is much more peaceful than any since we invaded.

Why are you even on this board?

[polly7]

3. The Iraqi people weren't killing each other pre-invasion,

so it is a moot point. Sunni married Shia, they lived as neighbours, it was considered classless to inquire about one's sect ....... divide and conquer. 'Terrorists' weren't in Iraq until Bush let them in. Another gift that keeps on giving.

[malaise]

5. Precisely

:hi:

[Statistical]

28. The iraqis certainly did kill each other before the invasion.

Hundreds of thousands died under Saddam reign. Did you think he personally killed everyone in his country?

So lets no pretend Iraq was a Middle East paradise.

Or do you not consider the Kurds "real people"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq

[polly7]

29. Wrong.

Ordinary Iraqi citizens were not killing one another.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

"Thursday, April 26, 2007

The Great Wall of Segregation...

…Which is the wall the current Iraqi government is building (with the support and guidance of the Americans). It's a wall that is intended to separate and isolate what is now considered the largest 'Sunni' area in Baghdad- let no one say the Americans are not building anything. According to plans the Iraqi puppets and Americans cooked up, it will 'protect' A'adhamiya, a residential/mercantile area that the current Iraqi government and their death squads couldn't empty of Sunnis.


The wall, of course, will protect no one. I sometimes wonder if this is how the concentration camps began in Europe. The Nazi government probably said, "Oh look- we're just going to protect the Jews with this little wall here- it will be difficult for people to get into their special area to hurt them!" And yet, it will also be difficult to get out.


The Wall is the latest effort to further break Iraqi society apart. Promoting and supporting civil war isn't enough, apparently- Iraqis have generally proven to be more tenacious and tolerant than their mullahs, ayatollahs, and Vichy leaders. It's time for America to physically divide and conquer- like Berlin before the wall came down or Palestine today. This way, they can continue chasing Sunnis out of "Shia areas" and Shia out of "Sunni areas".

I always hear the Iraqi pro-war crowd interviewed on television from foreign capitals (they can only appear on television from the safety of foreign capitals because I defy anyone to be publicly pro-war in Iraq). They refuse to believe that their religiously inclined, sectarian political parties fueled this whole Sunni/Shia conflict. They refuse to acknowledge that this situation is a direct result of the war and occupation. They go on and on about Iraq's history and how Sunnis and Shia were always in conflict and I hate that. I hate that a handful of expats who haven't been to the country in decades pretend to know more about it than people actually living there.

I remember Baghdad before the war- one could live anywhere. We didn't know what our neighbors were- we didn't care. No one asked about religion or sect. No one bothered with what was considered a trivial topic: are you Sunni or Shia? You only asked something like that if you were uncouth and backward. Our lives revolve around it now. Our existence depends on hiding it or highlighting it- depending on the group of masked men who stop you or raid your home in the middle of the night."

[malaise]

32. Good post

History is being revised by the hour.

[Statistical]

35. Still doesn't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi WERE KILLED under Saddam rule.

Saddam didn't personally kill thousands of people so IRAQI PEOPLE killed IRAQI people.

Also the treatment of Kurds by everyday Iraqi people is downright horrible. They were forced out of their homes in the valley region and forced north and there was no opposition to that tactic by the govt. Sunni and Shia were more than happy to move into the nice homes seized from the Kurdish minority.

Later they were exterminated wholesale including by use of chemical weapons. For last 30 years the Sunni and Shia both treated Kurds like a class of sub-humans.

So knock off the rainbows and unicorn fantasy of a happy and peaceful Iraq under Saddam.

[polly7]

36. Right. His conscripted army did the dirty deeds.

Like all armies do. Those chemical weapons leftover from the Iran, Iraq war? Yes, that was despicable and a war crime and should have been tried ....... but Rummy shook his hand later, so don't pretend it was any big human disaster to those with interests in Iraq at the time.

Knock off the propaganda used to continue the death, mutilation and homelessness for millions of Iraqi people who at one time DID live together peacefully. All that supposed hate between the Sunni and Shia barbed-wired away from each other, sometimes even splitting up families, fermenting a civil war used to 'justify' the continued occupation for 'humane reasons' is about as weak as were the mushroom clouds and yellow-cake. Like I said ....... divide and conquer. If you believe this wasn't all planned ........ well.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KharmaTrain]

10. The New Forgotten War...

A year ago the roles were reversed. Thank goodness things have stayed "under control" and that US troops are moving ahead with getting out of Iraq within the next year. I expect a residual force to remain...but a token one and feel comfident the worst of this horror is behind us. The dark feeling is that we rarely get much information about or from inside Iraq these days to sense the mood of the people...but the fact that no U.S. soldiers died last month is a positive for all involved.

Yes, Iraqis continue to die as do Afghans and Yemenis and Pakistanis and Palestinians and Israelis...the entire region remains a flashpoint and pawns of geopolitical economics. Here's hoping we're moving closer to understanding the root problems...then maybe, just maybe, some real progress can be made. Most important is I am glad we have this President and SOS Clinton rather than previous regime dealing with these issures.

:hi:

[malaise]

22. I don't know what to believe anymore

Life continues to be very hard for Iraqis

[KharmaTrain]

27. It Has For 30 Plus Years...

Combine the invasion with the embargo and the war vs. Iran and those people have suffered at many hands. There used to be a young woman blogger in Baghdad (name slips my demented memory right now) who gave a human and inside look at what was going on. It'd break your heart to read of the hardships she endured but fortunately she was able to escape to Syria. Sadly there's still a lot of stupidity and intolerance in this country that uses Iraqis and "A-rabs" as the new whipping boy.

[polly7]

31. The blog was called Baghdad Burning.

It was very poignant and heartbreaking. I often wonder where she is now.

[malaise]

33. I remember her well

I cried more than a few times reading Baghdad Burning.

[polly7]

37. I did too. I sent her an email just before her last entry.

Never got one back, but thanked her for her bravery and all the hours of torment she must have gone through losing friends, neighbours and watching her country destroyed. She was amazing.

[polly7]

13. IRAQ: Death Toll 'Above Highest Estimates'

IRAQ: Death Toll 'Above Highest Estimates'
By Ahmed Ali and Dahr Jamail*

BAQUBA, Jun 2 (IPS) - The real number of the dead is far higher than even the highest declared in death tolls, many Iraqis say.

A study by doctors from the Johns Hopkins School of Health in conjunction with Iraqi doctors from al-Mustanceriya University in Baghdad, published in the British medical journal The Lancet in October 2006, estimated the number of excess deaths as a result of the occupation at above 655,000.

Just Foreign Policy, an independent organisation "dedicated to reforming U.S. foreign policy" offered an updated total of 1,213,716 at the time of this writing.

On Sep. 14, 2007, Opinion Research Business (ORB), an independent polling agency located in London, produced a figure of 1,220,580 deaths as a result of the invasion.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42618

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. And deaths in Afghanistan are approaching record numbers

We traded one killing zone for another.

[malaise]

23. Not really

The death toll in Pakistan increases daily and next will be Yemen.
Kill, kill, kill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I am thinking about our troops

I believe you must be referring to civilians.

[malaise]

26. You're right

It's a mess for all of them - troops and civilians.

[Mari333]

30. they doubled in Afghanistan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7371826

[malaise]

34. No suprise

Stop the wars!