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An MSM story about the killed Afghanistan kids:complete with local's names!!!

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:10 PM
Original message
An MSM story about the killed Afghanistan kids:complete with local's names!!!
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 07:14 PM by maryf
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece

From The Times
December 31, 2009
Western troops accused of executing 10 Afghan civilians, including children
Afghan protesters shout slogans during a protest in Kabul

(/Ahmad Masood/Reuters)

The report into the deaths has provoked demonstrations
Jerome Starkey In Kabul

American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

Western military sources said that the dead were all part of an Afghan terrorist cell responsible for manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs), which have claimed the lives of countless soldiers and civilians.

“This was a joint operation that was conducted against an IED cell that Afghan and US officials had been developing information against for some time,” said a senior Nato insider. But he admitted that “the facts about what actually went down are in dispute”.

The allegations of civilian casualties led to protests in Kabul and Jalalabad, with children as young as 10 chanting “Death to America” and demanding that foreign forces should leave Afghanistan at once.

President Karzai sent a team of investigators to Narang district, in eastern Kunar province, after reports of a massacre first surfaced on Monday.

“The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead,” a statement on President Karzai’s website said.

Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit.

“At around 1 am, three nights ago, some American troops with helicopters left Kabul and landed around 2km away from the village,” he told The Times. “The troops walked from the helicopters to the houses and, according to my investigation, they gathered all the students from two rooms, into one room, and opened fire.” Mr Wafa, a former governor of Helmand province, met President Karzai to discuss his findings yesterday. “I spoke to the local headmaster,” he said. “It’s impossible they were al-Qaeda. They were children, they were civilians, they were innocent. I condemn this attack.”

In a telephone interview last night, the headmaster said that the victims were asleep in three rooms when the troops arrived. “Seven students were in one room,” said Rahman Jan Ehsas. “A student and one guest were in another room, a guest room, and a farmer was asleep with his wife in a third building.

“First the foreign troops entered the guest room and shot two of them. Then they entered another room and handcuffed the seven students. Then they killed them. Abdul Khaliq heard shooting and came outside. When they saw him they shot him as well. He was outside. That’s why his wife wasn’t killed.”

A local elder, Jan Mohammed, said that three boys were killed in one room and five were handcuffed before they were shot. “I saw their school books covered in blood,” he said.

more at link above

cheers to David S.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know who's unreccing this, but I think we need to know
what's being done in our name.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. K & R nt
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. We cannot put this action past Al Qaeda or Taliban posing as American soldiers
I just cannot believe that our guys would do such a barbaric thing.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. lt calley
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Somebody will be a scapegoat!
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 07:24 PM by maryf
sad stuff...
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. What, Mi Lai?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Why not?
This is war. This is what happens in war. This is nothing compared to Fallujah. We did Fallujah. We can do this. Why no one would believe our troops could do this is just incredible.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Clarification?
So do you think this is justified? I think not with your peace sign avatar, but hard to tell?? Peace.
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Hell no it is not justified
I just find it hard to believe US soldiers did this. The more likely scenario is Al Qaeda doing it and placing blame on Americans. Al Qaeda and Taliban have done this kind of thing before to blacken the image of the Coalition forces.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Its war
All is fair in war. That's why I am totally against war. Because stuff like this happens in war. It is not hard to believe that soldiers would do such a thing in this or any war.
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I, like my President, am against dumb wars.
Let us not forget that Mr Obama inherited these wars from the Bush regime. We are currently leaving Iraq as was promised by then candidate Obama. He stated clearly and definitively that we would turn our efforts towards routing Al Qaeda from Af/Pak.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Mr. President has escalated this war...
and initiated the drone program, still have over 100,000 in Iraq...
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. As opposed to the "smart" wars? n/t
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. Youse guys is just to much!

Who cares? It is bloody imperialism, promised or not.

k&r
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Are we using civilian
troops there? It is possible it was contractors. Either way, it is a black eye for this country, a public relations mess for Karzai, and a horrific personal tragedy for the family of the slain. A lose/lose situation all the way around.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. No, this actually BENEFITS Karzai.
Obama has increasingly signaled his intent to go around Karzai. Karzai has responded with ratcheting up anti-US rhetoric.

Believe me, the ONLY person that benefits from this situation is Karzai.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
55. Are you fucking kidding me? I've had soldiers admit to me they've murdered children
What color is the sky in your world?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I read Dahr Jamail's first hand account of Fallujah
I agree this is nothing compared to that.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. "following orders"
and the training is brutal, the propaganda worse...
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Or Xe (formerly Blackwater and a suspected CIA front company).
If things get too calm over there, they'll be the first ones sent home. We can't have the $$$ supply drying up in the middle of their best run ever.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good. Keep both names out there: Xe-Blackwater
I am assuming they chose "Xe" because it was harder to identify, pronounce and spell from pronunciation.
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. IIRC
They changed it citing "Public Relations" or some other corporate buzzwords that translated into "People have figured out we're thugs and murderers." Unfortunately, with the attention span the public has, it seems to have worked.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Imagine soldiers who served 3 or 4 rotations cleaning up after IEDs....
Not hard to imagine at all.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. One word - Fallujah
or maybe think Vietnam. They have done it before - believe me. You don't have a clue what they have done in your name. Ask the elders on this MB and weep.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. weep for a lot of children...nt
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. People said that
when the information about torturing prisoners came out too.
They kept saying it right up until the pictures went public.
Some are *still* saying it.

In that sort of situation, all it takes is one psychopath.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. Really? These guys have been deployed 3 to 5 times now; with extended tours.
1 tour in Vietnam tortured many... what happens when your on your 4th tour. Are you human or just a killing machine? AND who knows how many drugs these guys were on? Instead of treating for PTSD, they prop them up with pills and send them back out into the field.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Never happened...
It's all in the fevered imagination of "locals"....



:sarcasm:
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Nor do the deaths from drones...
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:08 PM by maryf
Such fantasies! :mad: :grr: :nuke:
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. thanks
for posting
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. You are welcome
it was an honor...
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Thanks for this link and article
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:38 PM by maryf
from your site:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan_un

The last two paragraphs say a lot...

"A statement issued Thursday by the Afghan National Security Directorate said the government investigation showed no Afghan forces were involved and "international forces from an unknown address came to the area and without facing any armed resistance, put 10 youth in two rooms and killed them.

"They conducted this operation on their own without informing any security or local authorities of Afghanistan," the statement said."
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. And thanks most for your original article linked here...I'd never have known
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:50 PM by maryf
and others would never have searched so hard to help vindicate your credibility!! I've chosen the last part to paste as its so powerful...{I'm sharing this elsewhere too...}

http://www.davidswanson.org/node/2385

"But here's what we've forgotten: nothing is ever remotely as horrible as war. So, nothing can ever constitute a justification for launching or escalating or continuing a war. Dragging children out of bed and killing them is not a freak blip in the course of a war. It is war reduced to a comprehensible scale. It's less war, not worse war. Everything we are spending our grandchildren's unearned pay on, borrowed from China at great expense, all of it is for the murdering of human beings. And it will remain so for eternity, no matter how many times you chant "Support Duh Troops."

I know many soldiers and mercenaries had few other options, given our failure to invest in any other industries. I know they've been lied to. I know they're scared and tired. But they wouldn't be there if we brought them home. And I support a full investment in their physical and mental and economic recovery. What I don't support is anyone participating in these wars, and that includes every single American who is not putting every spare moment into demanding that Congress stop forking over the money.

It's blood money. It's payment for murder. It cannot be defended. It cannot be permitted. We must stop it now. We must shut down the place it comes from.

Not another dime. Not another dollar. Not another death. Not another thought of revenge."

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Thanks for the new OP that all should read; link here, top of the greatest page
Edited on Sun Jan-03-10 10:37 AM by maryf
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7381479

Still think your essay has more heart than many I've seen, Peace.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. but but but ....
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:08 PM by Warren Stupidity
in another thread I could have sworn that this incident was a figment of the OP's imagination. How could that be? And where are the usual suspects to help us understand how The Times has got it all wrong too?

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. and Main Stream Media to boot
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:15 PM by maryf
The OP in the other thread has always been very credible and hard working... a hero in fact...but some folks will only believe the big media...and when locals' names are used! :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Think they hit
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:22 PM by maryf
when first posted, lots of unrecs it seemed. Hey sister, here's a picture from the article for you! Stop killing us the one sign says...:cry:

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That's a good photo!
We need more of those. I remember carrying similar signs in college only then it was "US out of El Salvador". Twenty five years ago and the game remains the same.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. STOP BOTH OCCUPATIONS NOW
AND NO ONE WILL DIE.

we are the terrorists.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. yep
;(
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is shameful...outragious..and makes me furious..
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Spread the word far and wide
Edited on Sun Jan-03-10 09:42 AM by maryf
Can't be buried...the people have to know about this egregious shit...
and read David Swanson's new OP here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7381479
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. Be sure you trot it back when no evidence backs you up. Pictures
show NOTHING like what is claimed by you or the other OP. UN says NOTHING about executions. Nothing backs that now. But hey, a lie gets around the world twice before the truth gets its shoes on.

"I accused people I never met of mass murder based on no evidence, despite the UN finding nothing of the sort" is hard to say. Practice.
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madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. There was a link to pictures from the funerals in another thread
All the "school boys" have beards, goatees, and look to be in their upper teens at least. Not that those facts change anything else that may have happened but when they keep saying school boys it gives one a completely different image than what the pictures show.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. I teach high school kids
Many 9th graders grow facial hair, and some are more hirsute than others, my husband had a full beard at 12.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. So I guess in your book, if someone came and dragged 10 80 year old women out of bed in the middle
of the night, hand cuffed them, and then murdered them assasination style, that would be alright with you.

I think your missing the big picture here. You know, can't see the forsest from the trees kind of thing.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. They show no cuffs, a guy who coughed up lung blood on his "zip tied" hands
and as you said no kids. But hey, lets just go on faith that the Army killed these people by executing them. But did not shoot in them in the head. I cant remember a gunshot execution where a person was not shot in the head. You know, to be sure they die.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. This is no defense, but
our soldiers are experiencing multiple deployments without time for recovery; they are experiencing post-traumatic stress, which is under-reported and under-treated; they are numbed and hardened by what they see on a daily basis.

It's very easy for me to believe that they could commit such atrocities.

These are war crimes, and our soldiers are as much victims of a pointless was as any other person. We don't realize it, but U.S. citizens who will never be in uniform or anywhere near the wars are traumatized by the war.

A corrupt government; antagonism between the corrupt government and the U.S.; an ineffective Afghanistan military; impossible to tell the enemy from noncombatants; a nation of tribes without a national unity; no clear missions; the fallacy of "winning the hearts and minds" of people you are killing; failing support at home;...

I remember it well. We have walked this way before.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. yes we have...
and many of our soldiers are impressionable, scared kids...
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. My youngest son is one of them.
My oldest son intends to join the Army this spring.

How would old men fight wars without young people who don't know any better to do the dying for them?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. They wouldn't...
so the young men shouldn't fight...my heart goes out to you.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
46. OK: AP (12-14), Latimes (12-17), UKTimes (11 - 17), UN (no ages), RAWA (bearded young men)
*RAWA photos.


Does anyone have the right ages on these students?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. What is the obsession with the ages???
Not just you. Maybe I'll take kids out of the heading. If 8 adult men, say 25, maybe even combatants, were pulled out of their beds and shot, it would be egregiously wrong, and possibly against geneva conventions?; if they were younger than 18 we'd call them kids, no? Why can no one believe they are kids as the principle said?? because they are Afghanis??

This is wrong period, no??
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. You grow a beard and you are an Afghani, you are fair game. Apparently. nt
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. Shooting handcuffed children will do the same for Afghanis that torture did for Iraqis. nr
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
51. Sickening
Hope someone here can tell me when we "win."
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. K&R
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
56. Who did this, and why they did it no longer matters. This will be a recruiting tool of
immense proportions for the anti-American/NATO effort.

Imagine how Americans would react if it were reported that a team of Afghanis had raided a school dormitory in Virginia and murdered a bunch of school boys.

All of the civilian deaths are horrific and unjustifiable even if they are an unintended consequence of war, but they will not register on the scale like this will. Our troops are going to be in for an even rougher row after this.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Maybe we can actually determine it did happen. Seemed to have skipped that step
buy hey accusing the US military of executing cuffed kids is awesome. Even with no evidence. Even though the UN did not mention any thing about execution in its findings online.

But what you said is correct and is the point, it sure stirs the pot. The claims made are inflammatory.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
58. No.Same Accusation same link, no kids in the pics. guys with beards.
that is the same old link the OP used in his initial locked rant. Nothing from the UN investigation backs it up. Lots of pics no cuffs. Standing by for more information from the UN.

NATO and US deny the accusation.

You guys want this one really bad, lots of water carried for your politics if it is true. As of NOW the UN still mentions no executions (no war crime), no pictures show cuffs, and no executions shown. Executions with guns are done with a shot to the head in every one I have ever heard of. You know, to be sure the person is dead,

These guys were not even dead checked. Same phone interview with the guy running a madrassa?

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Of course the US denies the accusation -
would you admit it if this were your handiwork? But good job trying to cast doubt repeatedly. You put a lot of effort into trying to shut down every thread that came out about this story. One might wonder why you would do so.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Lets see if this guy backs off his murder accusation
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 06:25 PM by Pavulon
when it is determined these "kids" were not executed in handcuffs. I put a lot of time and listened to horrible shit while watching members of the US Army and NATO dig up mass graves and for some fucker to make a murder claim like that on no fact. That makes me fucking sick. IF an investigation found someone murdered a prisoner in cuffs the actors should be tried and locked up for life. Here is a fact, you know how many executions I EVER heard of that took place with a gun where the victim was NOT shot in the head. FUCKING 0. You think these guys stood around on foot to wait while a bunch of people in cuffs died. That can take a while. "lets wait in the middle of bad guy country while this guy bleeds out of his liver" yeah.

The shot in the head, the one shown in NONE of the pictures, kills the victim instantly. So you can carry on killing others or not leave a living witness. 1 second vs 5 - 40 minuted to die of a chest wound. The story stinks, the sourcing stinks, and the accusation of mass murder against the US Army with nothing to stand on stinks.

With NOTHING but a shitty times article and a claim the UN backed it (false locked op) this person preaches like the gospel we murdered kids for his fucking politics. "look at this shit, come to my event"

Lets see in a week where this is and what happens if you accuse people of MURDER in a public forum. Wonder if the OP has the balls to back that off.

Casting doubt is the LEAST I can do. OP wants calls made, I made calls. Lets see what gets released over the next 7 days.
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