WOW...

[kpete]

Interesting graphic- live expectancy vs. health care spending per person in different countries:



I had not seen this before, kp

edited to add links:
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2009/12/healthcare_spen.html
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/01/healthcare-spending-and-life-expectancy.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/1/4/821836/-Buy-More,-Get-Less,-Die-Sooner

[HughMoran]

1. I like the 'bubble' plot

I've seen this plot done different ways - I like this method the best.

[flvegan]

2. That's not good value for money, there.

[Betsy Ross]

3. k&r n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

4. That doesn't bode well for all the money we will be spending on insurance and health care

with this new bill. In the long run, more will be spent and, if this graph is right, it will make things worse.

[janx]

8. But does the graph portray what the U.S. is like now, or what

it might be like after a final bill is assembled/passed? :shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

10. I don't see that the graph implies that it would make things *worse*

rather it looks as though the correlation between health care spending and life expectancy is positive but far from perfect. In particular, it looks as though *low* spending is associated with reduced life expectancy, but that once spending reaches a certain level, other factors become more important: perhaps the *way* in which the money is used'; perhaps other social and environmental factors in the country; most likely, all of these.

[aikoaiko]

5. What does the size of the bubbles indicate?

:shrug:

[druidity33]

13. and why doesn't Norway have one? nt.

[aikoaiko]

16. I bet it is some kind of measure of variance -- either age or money or a combination

that's my best guess.

[Hamlette]

39. Norway isn't on the "original" Nat'l Geographic graph so my guess is no numbers were avail to make

a bubble (the size of the bubble is the number of doctor visits per person per year, I think. If you look at the line graph, from which the bubble graph was made, the "thick" lines equal more doctor visits per year. Thick lines (more visits) end up being big bubbles.

[Javaman]

43. Norway hates us for our bubbles. nt

[mdmc]

34. +1

[Hamlette]

38. average number of visits to a doctor per year n/t

[tabatha]

6. What does the circle size represent?

[tularetom]

7. OK I get the per capita cost vs, life expectancy but

what is the significance of the size of the circles?

[grantcart]

23. how often people are able to access a doctor - utliization of care

[BrklynLiberal]

41. and the justification for taxing the "Cadillac" health plans is to force people

to choose less costly plans, with bigger copays and larger deductibles..and therefore use their health plan less!!!
They seem to be saying that the less you go to the doctor, the less it will cost....but screw the level of your health..
The Senate plan seems to only benefit the insurance companies and big pharma.

[seabeyond]

9. gonna have to save this one. thanks. nt

[hedgehog]

11. I wonder how much of our health spending is to make up for

problems caused by our life style. For example, any supermarket is full of cheap food that has no taste except salt and sugar. Our domestic meat is fat free from corn fed animals, and has no taste. Our vegetables and fruits are shipped in fresh year round, and aren't as nutritious as they were 60 years ago. Why not pay a little extra for food you can really taste, and end up with fewer heart attacks?

How many companies pay higher rates for health insurance for sick employees, then overwork the employees thus ensuring more stress leading to more sickness?


It's a classic pay me now or pay me later situation.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. No, or little correlation between health care spending and life expectancy.

And you nailed exactly why. There are almost unlimited cultural differences between the US, and any country on that chart. Our life expectancy is pretty good, DESPITE the shit we do to ourselves, that our health care system has to make up for.

Obesity topping the list.

[truedelphi]

12. Having lived in Norway, may I make a comment or two?

It's not only the health insurance (Though I know that having 'health insurance for all' makes one big huge difference.)

Norwegians eat a lot of fish.

They have no chlorine/flouride in their water.

They exercise much more than we do - it is not a big deal to drive into town for market and run into half a dozen neighbors whose ages are 70 and 80+ and they are biking around the market!

Those are significant lifestyle differences compared to what happens here in the USA.

[Fleshdancer]

36. Having lived in Japan, I agree

Healthy food (heavy on the fish), realistic food portions, and daily exercise due to walking everywhere makes a HUGE difference. Plus people are buying fresh food every one to two days instead of stocking up for a whole week or two which usually means less processed crap goes into their cupboards.

I already mentioned this down thread, but the active senior citizens in Japan was an inspiration to me. So happy and independent...that's the way life should be after living for 70+ years.

[JDPriestly]

51. But, Germans and Austrians eat a lot more sausage and pickled

foods than we do -- lots of salt. They also eat lots of baked goodies. But they eat healthier bread.

Europeans eat lots of fat.

[truedelphi]

58. That's a good point.

Maybe it's the beer?

My dad firmly beleived that since in heaven there is no beer, you have to drink it here.

And despite both of his parents dying relatively young, he died (While napping) at the age of ninety.

[targetpractice]

14. Source?

Please provide a link to the source so that we can learn what the size of each circle means.

[kpete]

15. here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/1/4/821836/-Buy-More,-Get-Less,-Die-Sooner

I updated the entry to include the original links and more

peace, kp

[Truth2Tell]

17. circle size = "utilization of care"

based on average number of doctor visits per year

[dorkulon]

25. And ours is nearly the smallest.

:banghead:

[slipslidingaway]

18. knr - saw the other graph at the PNHP site with a link to the National ...

Geographic site.

http://blogs.ngm.com/blog_central/2009/12/the-cost-of-care.html


"The United States spends more on medical care per person than any country, yet life expectancy is shorter than in most other developed nations and many developing ones. Lack of health insurance is a factor in life span and contributes to an estimated 45,000 deaths a year. Why the high cost? The U.S. has a fee-for-service system—paying medical providers piecemeal for appointments, surgery, and the like. That can lead to unneeded treatment that doesn’t reliably improve a patient’s health. Says Gerard Anderson, a professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health who studies health insurance worldwide, “More care does not necessarily mean better care.” —Michelle Andrews

[burrowowl]

19. K&R

[roody]

20. Where is Cuba on this graph?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

21. Posted this chart and some comments regarding "socialized" health care

and was told "more to one of those countries if they are so wonderful.....

I like my country the way it is.....I like my freedom and independence...." by another poster who dislikes me apparently.

Whatever should I do? :evilgrin:

[grantcart]

22. Now that's American exceptionalism

[dysfunctional press]

24. these kind of charts are meaningless...

when you have a nation of morans.

[MilesColtrane]

26. Looks like we're getting bang for the buck.

Unfortunately, the bang is the sound of the coffin lid closing.

[Jamastiene]

27. K&R

We are spending too much for too little. We needed REAL health care reform.

[mopinko]

28. seems deceptively simple.

like, i look at the japan bubble, and i wonder if that isn't up there in part because of women who take care of relatives for free. if post surgical skilled nursing care is part of our costs, maybe that is part of the equation that keeps our costs high.
i wonder what an overlay of the salaries of health care workers would show. not just docs, but nurses, techs, etc. i think that is where a lot of our money goes.

[TexasObserver]

29. We're not getting out money's worth, but health care providers are.

Their investment in congress is paying big dividends.

[chimpymustgo]

30. REAL health care reform NOW. K&R

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

31. To explain this to your neighbors

The analogy that I use:

You go into Bartolotta's (a local expensive restaurant) and you order filet mignon. Out of the kitchen comes a Big Mac, fries and a Coke. When the waiter brings the bill, they're still charging you for the filet. You're paying Bartolotta's prices, but you're getting McDonald's food. That's pretty much how our healthcare system works in this country.

I use this on people all the time and it ALWAYS causes them to stop an think about how they're getting screwed -- even conservatives. Pass it on.

[Time for change]

32. It's much more than interesting

If accurate (everything I've read about this subject suggests that it IS accurate), it clearly shows us to be an extreme outlier. While every other country depicted on the graph shows a rough relationship between health care spending and life expectancy, ours does not. In other words, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on health care for no other purpose than to enrich certain elite interests involved in health care.

When will Americans catch on????

[Greyhound]

33. Once we get that "insurance reform", you'll have to extend your graph

into the $9K - $10K p/person range.

[Fleshdancer]

35. I can believe Japan's placement

Never in my life have I ever seen so many active and vibrant senior citizens than in Japan. Very inspiring actually.

[Goldstein1984]

44. Japan, Okinawa, Korea...

I think it has a lot to do with diet. I've never found healthy food served in health proportions served anywhere like I experience in Japan and Okinawa years ago.

[The Wielding Truth]

37. This should get out to everyone. Fliers on windshields and doors.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. not a good reflection on us/US

[havocmom]

42. Thank you

Might print that out and post around town

[tclambert]

45. Sarah Palin says this graph proves how good and mavericky America is.

Okay, I made that up. Sarah Palin interpreting a graph? Inconceivable!

[rgbecker]

46. USA = Outlier. n/t

[defendandprotect]

47. K&R

[librechik]

48. Gives a whole new meaning to the ideology of "American Exceptionalism"

doesn't it?

How I wish we could turn the clock back to before we turned our backs on the world...(1980?)

[winyanstaz]

49. now doesn't that make us feel special?

my...How nice.

[LuckyLib]

50. And Mexico and the US are two countries who do NOT have public health care.

No surprise there -- we continue to rank at the bottom where health care is concerned, except for the privileged who can afford the best.

[kjones]

52. Ha...at that cost it looks like we should be living until we're 100 n/t

[snake in the grass]

53. Well...

...I guess that's nice when some people live longer, but are the insurance providers in these countries also turning a profit?

[glinda]

55. Our health care system is a F@%$^$% joke. We need to revolt truly.

[live love laugh]

56. So $3 to $4k only buys four more years? That's not a good argument IMHO. nt

[branders seine]

57. oh goody.

now Obama will make us give more money to the corporations who got us nito this mess.