Ralph Nader is just as responsible for American deaths in Iraq than George W. Bush.

[trumad]

"things have to get worse before they can get better"...

Yeah Ralph---tell that to the 3000 plus dead American Soldiers in Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's!

George W. Bush destroyed this country and you helped him do it.

Fuck you Nader.

[jpak]

1. +1

:thumbsup:

[Zoeisright]

2. Yep. And the people who have died because stem cell research was crippled.

And the people who died because of poverty, and homelessness, and the people who died because of the chimp's endless wars, etc. etc. etc. etc.

[trumad]

6. And the Patriot Act...

And massive deregulation---

[superduperfarleft]

24. Which the Dems trampled over each other to vote for. n/t

[Moochy]

133. And because of the undie bomber, we've decided to not let certain provisions lapse

Hooray we are safe!!!

[superduperfarleft]

136. Well, if Nader hadn't tried to blow up that plane, none of this would've happened.

Damn him!

[Moochy]

137. He's Omnipresent and 'Omni-Causal'!

:scared:

FUCK NADER!!!!!! AIEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

[we can do it]

3. +1

and his supporters as well

[TexasObserver]

4. "Fuck you Nader" is right.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. O.K. Carlos, whatever

[trumad]

8. Please---

Carlos has nothing on me regarding my disdain of Nader...Carlos was a rank amateur.

[mzmolly]

50. Hey I forgot all about Carlos!

;)

[David Zephyr]

66. Carlos lives on through other posters. He's immortal.

.

[TayTay]

130. George Bush is responsible for his own errors

There were enablers to all Bush did to screw up this country. America has a terrible election system that is not secure and vulnerable to fraud. But that doesn't excuse Bush or make others responsible for decisions Bush made months, if not years, after the election.

George Bush and the Republicans from Reagan on are responsible for their own failures.

[MH1]

187. Tay, you are right BUT the o.p. is also right

because I've heard too many people say (to my face, not on a message board) that "things have to get worse so people wake the f**k up" and "there's not a dime's worth of difference" between Gore and Bush.

Well I beg to differ and you know as well as I do, what I posted a little earlier today - Kerry has been on top of the terrorism issue since way back, and he would have had influence with Gore ...plus Clinton and Gore knew the seriousness of bin Laden ... there is a real likelihood that a) 9/11 wouldn't have even happened or at least b) Gore would NOT have invaded Iraq and pissed on the Geneva Convention. Gore also would have kept FEMA functional and I bet a whole lot of people would have been less bad off after Hurricane Katrina.

And so forth. The list of ways Gore would have been better than Bush is probably even longer than the "Kerry was right" list, and that's a pretty long one.

So the Nader supporters need to own up that they were WRONG. Of course many of them never will. (And those who will, already have, and it is appreciated.)

and for what it's worth, I initially supported Nader ... I thought that Gore should win easily over Bush (Bush was a buffoon, remember?) and it would be great for the Green Party to get the 5% they needed. Ah I was so naive. Anyway I felt completely betrayed when the election drew close and Nader didn't throw his support behind Gore. That's when I started to hear the "not a dime's worth ... yada yada" - if Nader had said it early in the campaign when I started supporting him I missed it ... that is when he lost me forever. It's just INSANE to believe that and anyone that INSANE should not be near the nuclear launch codes. Even if they are supposedly anti-war.

[Moochy]

119. he was an amateur, you are a professional

You know how you can tell the difference? The amateurs get tombstoned.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

21. thanks for that blast from the past

I never use the "lol" stuff, but in your case, this truly did make me laugh aloud. Thank you.

[Ignis]

170. ...

:spray:

Ah, memory lane.

[onehandle]

7. Yep. nt

[WeDidIt]

9. Moreso, IMO

He knew what the fuck he was doing and he knew what the fuck the consequences were.

[trumad]

11. 97,000 Floridians voted for this guy

Gore lost---scratch that---was told he lost by 500.

[HillbillyBob]

23. Gore actually won by about 500 points

though Jeb Bush had a pile of ballots in FtL destroyed the night of the election by having the ballots from our precinct (gay and black pretty much all dem area)
put into truck mounted shredders..Fox noise was there they ran the footage after the supine court handed dickwad the office of pResident. We also got a lot of grief from their goons for darying to speak out about election fraud perpetrated by the bush crime family.

[mdmc]

98. why not blame the 97,000 for not voting for leiberman?

This is a democracy. We have two corporate parties that rep the investment class over the working class. 97,000 Floridians should be blamed for not voting the way you wanted them to.

[SOS]

123. Exactly. Lieberman cost Gore the election, not Nader

Forget Florida.
Lieberman cost Gore TN.
If Gore had carried his home state with Bob Graham (D-FL) as running mate he would have won without FL.
It was Lieberman's fault.
And Lieberman sponsored the Authorization for the Use of Force Against Iraq, not Nader.

[leftynyc]

140. How did Lieberman

cost Gore TN?

[SOS]

152. Clinton/Gore carried TN twice: 1992 and 1996

Both times by comfortable margins.
Lieberman's vicious attacks on Clinton and the hard move to the right heralded by Lieberman caused enough disgust to swing it.

The Southern combo of Clinton and Gore was popular in TN.
Lieberman was not.

[mdmc]

177. yupyup

[Dr.Phool]

211. I blame it all on those Jewish voters in West Palm.

If they all didn't vote for Buchanan........

[ashling]

10. That is fundie logic

things have to get
worse = the Apocalypse
before they can get better = the second coming of Jebus

How about: we need to make things better before they get worse instead of making sure they get worse

also smacks of the Shock Doctrine

[blues90]

12. Just how did Nader help Bush distroy this country?

Why because he ran for president? Are you out of your mind?

[Snotcicles]

16. They sure are. nt

[MUAD_DIB]

57. Here we go again. Nader knew that he couldn't win. He didn't have the numbers.

So he ran anyway: knowing who would benefit. 1+1= ??

[blues90]

59. sort of like Kerry who promised to count ALL votes and then

Ran away . Kept his seat though didn't he , he never took a risk at all.

[MUAD_DIB]

61. I would agree that Kerry should have fought harder than he did.

Gore should have demanded that all the votes in FLA be counted over, but the SCOTUS royally screwed him.


If you wanted a better comparison you could say that Nader was a lot like Joe Liberman (I) Douchebag.

They were both spoilers. Both ruined the chances of the Democrat to win in order to bask in the glow of their own Ego.


So goes politics...

[Raineyb]

164. So what he has every right to run just like any other natural born citizen over 35 years of age.

Your reasoning makes no logical sense whatsoever.

:thumbsdown:

[MUAD_DIB]

178. He has every right to run and help kill the the candidate that had a real chance to win...

then make up excuses about it after the fact.

You Naderites always crack me up, and then you go on about logical sense.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


If Nader was logical he would have stepped down for the good of the country: knowing that he could not possibly win.

But alas. Ego, like his supporter's sense of entitlement to be spoilers, kept him in to the most predictable end.

[Raineyb]

193. He's not a Democrat he doesn't owe them a damn thing.

Just like no voter owes the Democratic party their vote. That you don't understand that seems to me that the person who has the sense of entitlement in this scenario would be you.

But go ahead laugh. I never found ignorance to be terribly funny but as the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

[MUAD_DIB]

197. I love your posturing. Yes, I will laugh at it.

Nader is an egotist, just like his supporters, that didn't give a shit that he was helping Bush gain power.

[Quantess]

13. Why invoke Ralph Nader now?

Has he done something?

[ima_sinnic]

93. we are going to hear this crap all the way to 2012, as a "warning"

many are rumbling about voting 3rd party if Obama and the democrats don't start actually being Democrats and upholding Democratic principles.
Now we will be "reminded" for the next 2 years "what happens" if you don't toe the party line and sacrifice your constitutional right to vote on the basis of principle rather than false campaign promises and fluff that leads to more of the same status quo and further screwing.

[Harry Monroe]

105. How amazing would it be if millions upon millions of Americans simply got "fed up"

And voted for 3rd party candidates? And 3rd party candidates actually won on the Federal and State level!! I would consider this a monumental step forward. Think about it: It would shake the Democratic and Republican establishment to the core and perhaps finally the powers that be would finally realize that the people of this country are supremely pissed off and sick and tired of the status quo and "politics as usual". This would be true revolution at the voting booth. It would send a very powerful message to the two political parties that have a stranglehold and have mired this country and its political process in gridlock for a generation now!! But alas, I don't seeing it happening in my lifetime; people are sheep when it comes to their vote, voting for the "lesser of the two evils". Well, guess what people!! You want change in a big way? Vote the fuckers out and let your vote be a protest against the government and Congress that is no longer working for the American people, but rather for their own interests and the entrenched corporate interests that have bought their own Congressmen and their own government in Washington. Congress no longer works for "We the People" but rather for big business. Fascism is here, ladies and gentlemen, and the only way to break the stranglehold of corporate fascism is to say NO MORE!!!

On edit: You want revolution, there's your revolution!! And without bloodshed!! I'd love to see the assholes in both parties quaking in their boots because the people have simply had enough and have finally had the intelligence and courage to say "FUCK YOU"!

[ima_sinnic]

135. +++1000 that is exactly what they're afraid of & why Nader must be "invoked"

unfortunately, I think the average American voter might be "afraid of Palin" and will vote for the candidate they perceive as having the best chance to beat her, even if that candidate is a kiss-ass, lower-case-"d" fake democrat who has consistently approved investing our tax dollars in their own private corporate payola scams (talking about congresspeople here, before people get their panties twisted over some "hatred" of Obama crap).

bookmark this: the republican candidate in 2012 will be someone equally inane as Palin--some useful idiot who will serve the purpose of scaring voters into voting for Obama for a 2nd term, even if (or, should I say, especially if) Obama has sold us down the river without a paddle. I am withholding a decision about who I'll vote for in 2012--I did reregister as an Independent yesterday--it may or may not be for Obama, depending on whether he comes around to truly fighting for progressive principles and ideals, but so far he hasn't shown much stomach for that--in fact, just the opposite in some cases, and his lack of interest in prosecuting bushco and his administration's continued challenges of court cases upholding habeas corpus are REAL turn-offs. I will not be swayed by "promises" in 2011, after seeing how little "promises" really mean to him.

[G_j]

112. you got it

stay in line!

[Ignis]

168. Because we can't take responsibility for our own fuck-ups.

C'mon...Lieberman as VP on the ticket?
Big Dog being told he wasn't needed on the campaign trail?
Allowing the Brooks Bros. riot to shut down counting?

Still waiting for a :facepalm: emote.

[el_bryanto]

14. This is sure to lead to a productive discussion. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. Ralph Nader is a jackass but the logic used here is worse than Nader

He is not "just as responsible"

That's like saying that Neville Chamberlain was "just as responsible for" the holocaust as Hitler.

Simultaneously cute, offensive and wrong.

Iraq ia a little too serious to be a game piece in a sophistry contest.

[dkf]

I agree 1000%

I curse Nader in the same breath as W.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Wow. Who knew? Nader sent troops to Iraq! I suppose he escalated the war in Afghanistan too?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. really? you seem to know how to tenaciously hold on to useless anger

I mean goddamnit, isn't 11 years enough? Do you plan to ever do anything other than sling feces at a wall, hoping it will somehow change the past?

Whose fault is it NOW when people die in Iraq? Yes, fortunately there were no US deaths in Iraq in the month of December, but more US deaths will surely occur. Whose fault will it be then? Will it be mine and yours for supporting Obama? Will it still be Bush's fault (hint: this is the winning answer)? Will it somehow be Nader's fault in your mind?

I know you won't listen to any advice I might have, which would be to just let it go. But what does it gain you to sit and stew in your own juices after all this time. Do you still rage about the Teapot Dome Scandal et al? Is there a suggested statute of limitations? What can you possibly hope to gain from expending your energy on this sort of thing?



Edited to remove an accusation of OP whining. I don't want to be like that, and I've always respected the OP. Still not a terribly friendly post on my part, but the whining charge went a little to far, and I'm sorry about that, trumad.

[arcadian]

19. HEADLINE: Republicans sweep both House and Senate in 2010 elections!

DU: fuck you Nader

[d_b]

38. wH0a I see dOts

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

22. What about all the Dems who voted for the IWR? n/t

[PizzaDriver]

48. they don't count. dems can't be held responsible for anything. nt

[Forkboy]

101. Hey, trumad....answer this post, please.

[Ignis]

173. I see *crickets* in your future.

...But it's a great question, anyway. :patriot:

[rug]

25. Who's responsible for dead Afghanis?

[stray cat]

26. Then anyone who doesn't vote dem is guilty for anything the GOP does if they win?

in 2010 or 2012 as well?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DerekG]

28. Harry Truman responsible for more deaths than Ralph Nader

Interesting avatar you've got there, fella.

[H2O Man]

29. Respectfully disagree.

There were a number of factors that resulted in Bush taking the White House in 2000. Nader was one of those factors. But that does not make him equally responsible for the deaths in Iraq as Bush.

[dionysus]

30. he had raytheon stock in his portfolio too. fuckign hypocrit

[Pretty Boy Floyd]

31. Two-Minutes Hate from reactionary troglodyte

Don't forget all the venal cowards on both sides of the aisle who made the massacre possible. It was a bi-partisan slaughter in case you bypassed reality and history.

And BTW that legendary Dem Bill Clinton and his cohorts have a few million dead Iraqis on their hands so you might check the entire story of the long-eared and ongoing massacre in detail rather than posting such absurdities as you have.

[superduperfarleft]

104. He can't hear you!!!!

Lalalalala!!!!

[luvspeas]

32. this is the same kind of logic that keeps any real progressive candidate from being viable...

based on your logic, I'd say that you are the reason Dennis Kucinich will never be president.

[Raineyb]

33. This is without a doubt the most asinine post I've seen today.

Although I'll grant you that the day isn't over yet.

Unrec!

[bullwinkle428]

34. The FUCKING SUPREME COURT is far more responsible than Nader

will ever be, with regards to putting that monster into the White House!

[Mojambo]

35. Bullshit. n/t

[madinmaryland]

36. Dude. Hasn't this been hashed to death a thousand times here already.

As much as it is Nader's fault, it is also Mike Bonds fault.

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

37. Or Barry Bonds.

Hope this thread isn't put on the sports forum now.

[madinmaryland]

62. So it was the fucking steroids that bbonds gave * that allowed him to win.

:D

[dionysus]

39. nader is just one of many who have varying degrees of responsibility for it.

[Cerridwen]

40. OMG, Erma, oh Erma, how could you have caused this forced-birther

insanity?

We've got a generation now who were born with semiequality. They don't know how it was before, so they think, this isn't too bad. We're working. We have our attache' cases and our three piece suits. I get very disgusted with the younger generation of women. We had a torch to pass, and they are just sitting there. They don't realize it can be taken away. Things are going to have to get worse before they join in fighting the battle. link

eta: yep, still can't type worth crap.

[tabasco]

41. The utopians will never admit it.

In the final analysis, they just don't give a shit.

They are the comfortable class that does not suffer when the left coalition is broken and the right-wing takes power.

[Xithras]

157. The left-coalition is being sundered by rightwing Democrats. Not the Naderites.

The Democratic leadership has been lurching to the right for the past 20 years, and the Democratic reactionaries are whining that the rest of the "left" isn't lurching right along with them. Leftist Democrats, on the other hand, generally understand why so many people voted for Nader.

The politics of the real American left has been largely unchanged since the 1930's. The only thing that has CHANGED is the commitment of the Democratic Party to support those politics.

When you call your allies a bunch of irrelevant "dreamers" and then walk away from their "coalition", you have no right to be pissed off when they don't "have your back" when push comes to shove. They are also not at fault when that pushing becomes a fight that you lose.

Nader filled a vacuum. The Democratic Party fielded a candidate who didn't appeal to leftists, so those leftists took their votes elsewhere. That's how democracy works. If the Democratic Party wants to keep those votes, it needs to make sure that it's politics and candidates remain firmly on the left wing side of the political aisle.

Judging by the current behaviors of the party, I'd say it's a lesson we haven't learned yet.

[Ignis]

174. + a million or two: "Nader filled a vacuum."

Don't want Nader to take all those oh-so-precious (but only in election years!) Green/progressive votes in general elections?

Then run something other than corporatist, Third-Way candidates! :argh:

[frog92969]

42. Damn! I accidentally recced this piece of shit thread!

Nader was well within his rights granted by our democracy.
bu$h stole the presidency bypassing democracy with the help of his daddy's buddies.
Gore was proven to be the winner afterwards, neither party cared.

Those are the facts your delusions keep you from seeing.

Personally, I prefer democracy, even when it hurts.
If you don't, there are places like Saudi Arabia and North Korea
where you could live without scapegoats like Ralph.

[go west young man]

89. You speak the real truth.

The person writing this thread is as fearful as Republicans are of true democracy. Delusional weak dems are why we lost then. Look att what has happened now with Lieberman. he was Gore's choice for VP. I thought he was a candyass then and I'm 100% sure of it now. I suppose the person behind this thread wouldn't want to address that issue.

[begin_within]

43. Nader is responsible for the actions of Bush?

In my book, people are responsible for their own actions. Bush's decisions and actions are his responsiblity. Trying to pin the Iraq war on Nader, or the 97,000 people in Florida who voted for Nader, or the Supreme Court, or whatever, is pretty farfetched in my opinon. Plenty of people ran for President in 2000. Did those 97,000 votes somehow "belong" to Gore? Those 97,000 people had reasons for choosing Nader instead of any other candidate. Trying to lay blame for the Iraq war on those people or even on Nader is grasping at straws, in my opinion.

[Fading Captain]

44. My God. I've never seen anything so stupid in my life.

LOL
Don't blame the Dems who VOTED for war.
You can damn well bet Nader wouldn't have voted for it.

[stevedeshazer]

45. That's just laughable.

Actually, pathetic.

[Flaneur]

46. Generic comment here.

[PizzaDriver]

47. another contribution to the image of dems as the party that doesn't demand personal responsibility f

for anything. waaaaaaaa! Nader made us lose! i sincerely hope that dems have abandoned the strategy of simply hoping that their competition drops out so they can win.

[Crunchy Frog]

49. -1

[Better Believe It]

51. And he caused 9/11, deregulated Wall Street and tried to destroy the auto industry!

Just look at the damage he caused auto workers and people who bought cars!

Damn seat belts, air bags, safety glass, windshield wipers, horns and headlights!

We could do fine without them and cars would only cost half as much without all those so-called safety features!

Nader the evildoer!

[Ozymanithrax]

52. I have less than 0 respect for Nader, but even I can't accept that...

Bush is responsible for not stopping 9/11 and then taking us into the forever war. Obama is responsible for what happens under his watch, and will be equally fouled by it if he doesn't bring them to an end.

Governor Bush of Florida and the Republican's violated election laws, then got the SCOTUS to hand them the power in what should be called a coup.

[insanity]

53. Bullshit

I don't like Nader at all, but you can't make an argument that running for political office and loosing makes you culpable for the failures of the winner.

Nader was legally eligible to run for office, and it is his right as a citizen to do it. His voters are more to blame than the man is.

Fuck Nader is right though. He is an egotistical bastard.

[seeinfweggos]

54. nader threw the election to cheney and bush by saying gore was no different

does anyone believe president gore would have invaded iraq? abandoned the kyoto agreement on climate change? tortured prisoners? skewed the tax code more to the wealthy, let new orleans drown?

ralph nader is pathetic.

and yes, he has blood on his hands

[Lorien]

72. And BushCo stealing the election had nothing to do with it, right?

:eyes:

[seeinfweggos]

75. of course they did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7408819&mesg_id=7411251

[Kahuna]

84. Nader knew it was close in Florida and BROKE his pledge to not

campaign in close states. But he did anyway, didn't he? Anybody with a brain would know that with bush's brother, the gov of Florida, that was no place to be playing games.

[MUAD_DIB]

55. OMYGOD! OMYGOD! OMYGOD! OMYGOD! OMYGOD! OMYGOD!

You've upset the Naderettes you have!

Watch out. They'll start calling you a joke for bringing them back to the reality of St. Ralph.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. is a shit statement. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

58. Let's make some slight corrections here....

Ralph Nader The DLC is just as responsible for American deaths in Iraq than George W. Bush.

"things have to get worse before they can get better"...

Yeah Ralph Bruce Reed, Al From, Will Marshall, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, John Edwards, and John Kerry (among others) ---tell that to the 3000 plus dead American Soldiers in Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's!

George W. Bush destroyed this country and you helped him do it.

Fuck you Nader DLC.

OK... now it reads far more accurately.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. That's more like it

Sorry, but Nader was RIGHT.

I voted for him in 1996 out of disgust with NAFTA and welfare reform, but I would not vote for him again, because he just pops up every four years instead of trying to build a progressive movement.

But really, I blame all those Dems in Congress who won their elections and voted for every damn thing the Bush administration proposed. Their DLC apologists were on DU saying,"No use voting against X, because it was going to pass anyway."

That was Standard Lame Excuse #547.

OK, now we have a majorities in both houses of Congress and a Democrat in the White House--and the DLCers are still telling us we have to kowtow to the Republicans!

Can't end the wars, have to escalate them, in fact. Have to "reform" health care with a stinking pile of corporate welfare. Can't repeal the Patriot Act, have to extend it. Can't stop extraordinary rendition. Put an advocate of charter schools and more standardized tests in charge of education. Can't call bullshit on the whole concept of a "war on terror." Can't place conditions on the financial institutions that received hundreds of billions of dollars but can force concessions from the auto workers' unions. Can't even issue an executive order to void Don't Ask Don't Tell.

And here I voted for Obama just because I wanted to make sure the Republicans didn't get in.

[stevedeshazer]

69. What you said.

I could not agree more.

[go west young man]

162. Ditto.

[Ignis]

175. "Oh, but that's DIFFERENT. Those guys wear blue shirts!"

No, it's not really different at all. Thanks for spelling it out, though. :thumbsup:

Some people obviously still think that a small-time player should be faulted for losing an election that should have been a landslide. I mean, think back to 1999: Who would have thought that Shrub would ever become Preznit?

[beardown]

63. Congratulations.

The most convoluted and self serving argument of the year has for the first time moved from a Free Republic poster to you.

How's Gore's vice president been working out for getting us out of Iraq and Afghanistan? How's Obama doing on getting us out of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mindless drones who place party above nation are no more desirable in the dem party than the repub party.

[apocalypsehow]

67. "..moved from a Free Republic poster to.." Follow FR pretty closely, do we?

:eyes:

Yesireeee, I'll just bet you do....

[nemo137]

76. You really want to say that?

You really want to use the phrase "place party above nation" in a post defending Nader?

[beardown]

149. So the truth hurts, deal with it

I was attacking the repub tactic of twisting facts and logic past the point where it's an outright lie used to further an ideology. Blaming Clinton for sun spots and Nader for Iraqi deaths are side by side on the same scale.

The fact that you are still going after Nader via my post, instead of responding to the original subject material speaks volumes that you are willing to accept the concept of placing party over nation yourself.

[JackRiddler]

64. At least he isn't bombing Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan...

Oh, sorry. I just noticed that only the American deaths in Iraq count. Of course.

[Kahuna]

87. Indeed. Heaven forbid we should irradicate terrorists. Oops! I forgot,

"progressives" don't believe in terrorists or terrorism.

[Forkboy]

102. How can you blame Nader for Bush? The other week you blamed gays for Bush.

Which one is it?

[unapatriciated]

190. He is an equal opportunity blamer

[PVnRT]

106. I love wingnut talking points

I especially love how they're accepted currency on DU now.

[JackRiddler]

111. Thousands of civilian non-combatants have been killed.

Women and children, wedding parties, people who had the bad luck to look like Osama have been hit.

"Collateral damage" is an inevitability of the bombing approach. The people killed at WTC were also collateral damage, since the point wasn't to kill them in particular, but to meet a goal of warfare.

When you kill thousands of people somewhere, others in that area will decide to get what they think is revenge by killing people at random here. What a shock.

You want to stop terrorism, then stop terrorizing people with bombs from the air.

Stop supporting dictatorships in that region. Stop arming Israel.

Your strategy is not only killing more innocent people than the retail terrorists - it's what gives the terrorists the motivation to strike and support among their own peoples.

[JackRiddler]

127. Oh, and did you mean irrigate or eradicate?

[Moochy]

131. Lets be sure to kill their babies so they don't breed and make more terrists!111

irradicate the humanoid! :eyes: :sarcasm:

[bullwinkle428]

144. Welcome to our board, Rep. Peter King of New York!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

169. No, we don't believe in indiscriminate bombings.

How many hearts and minds do you think we're winning with the death of each Afghani child?

How many each time a wedding is bombed?

[apocalypsehow]

65. Truer words have never been spoken. Kick, Rec.

:thumbsup:

:kick:

[Lorien]

71. Really? then you need to reexamine your concept of "truth".

[apocalypsehow]

74. Sucks to realize that Nader was a co-enabler of the Bush/Cheney nightmare, doesn't it?

Too bad for you. But I'm afraid Nader supporters are going to have own it - because that's just what he did.

[David Zephyr]

68. Oh pulleazze. Give that lie a rest.

The Supreme Court gave the presidency to George Bush.

Al Gore won the votes in Florida. The votes were not counted.

Gore won WITH Nader on the ballot, even with the Butterfly Ballots.

Al Gore said so. Is Gore a liar?

[Lorien]

70. Talk about misdirected anger! Nader has looked out for our interests for decades

as a consumer watchdog. He had every right to run for office, as do all American citizens over the age of 35. BushCo STOLE the office. By misdirecting the blame you remove it from the true criminals.

[Kahuna]

85. Until 2000, when he helped two OILMEN get into the WH. That was a

genuis move. Who would have thought a middle east oil war would follow? Duh.

[stevedeshazer]

73. Trumad,

When you wake up with a hangover tomorrow and read this, remember the advice I gave you before you called me an idiot: Don't Post Drunk.

It just makes you look bad.

Just trying to help.

D P D

Your pal,

stevedeshazer

[Name removed]

77. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

78. He didn't vote for the Iraq War Resolution.

So how is he responsible?

[Chef Eric]

79. Why don't we put the blame on Al Gore instead?

His choice of Joe Lieberman as a running mate was a major motivation for Nader voters. Therefore, the deaths are largely Al Gore's fault.

:wtf:

[Kahuna]

81. Nice try at rewriting history. Nobody knew how big a douche lieberman

was back then.

[ima_sinnic]

91. lieberman was a major turn-off even in 2000

so don't spin your "insightful" crap now

[SOS]

132. "Nobody"?

Informed people knew Lieberman was a catastrophic choice.
Knowing that Lieberman was a dick in 2000 is not "rewriting history".

[superduperfarleft]

138. Well, when one only becomes aware of politics because it was cool to be anti-IWR

I can see how that poster might not know who Lieberman was.

[go west young man]

163. I fucking knew.

Many of us knew but we were told to tow the party line. How's that line these days? Quite a douchey one with Lieberman on the end of it. Yet people on this thread say we should keep trusting the DLC while Obama back tracks on every promise. So I guess when we lose in 2012 it's Naders fault again even though our partys agenda sucked.

[Chef Eric]

186. Nader strongly criticized Lieberman back then. You just weren't paying attention. nt

[Bonobo]

206. I did. It is why I didn't vote for Gore. Therefore it was Gore's fault. nt

[Kahuna]

80. Agreed. nt

[quaker bill]

82. I am no fan of Nader

But I prefer my Bush as fully responsible for this crime, and do not want him to share even a small portion of the blame with anyone.

Nader may have helped let him into the office, and this is quite bad enough, but what Bush did once he got there was Bush and Bush alone.

[Tailormyst]

83. Your post can only be classified as "incredibly stupid".

[ima_sinnic]

86. of course, it's not the fault of people who voted for bush

simply saying something over and over, along with the rest of the mindless chanters, does not make anything true.

First, I didn't know Nader was on the Supreme Court at the time it appointed Bush president.
Second, the reason Gore got fewer votes than he "should have" is that people chose not to vote for him. DUH.
That's the way elections work.
The voters who wanted to vote for Gore, did. Those who wanted to vote for someone else voted for whomever they wanted, or they didn't vote at all.

I'm sure you'd love it in Iran, where people's choices in voting are limited. "Your" candidate would win every time.

[Kahuna]

88. Of course it is. Voting for Nader was a vote for bush as well. nt

Let the howling begin. :rofl:

[ima_sinnic]

92. could you explain that, please? how so? (nt)

[Vickers]

90. Nader is one worthless fuck.

I live in Florida, and know a lot of nitwits who voted for him. He allowed our state to be illegally swung, so I blame that rotten fuck for a lot of the crap wrong in the world right now.

And all of the people I *personally* know who voted for him regret it now.

[freddie mertz]

94. Time for the Hate Break. In fact, Bush is responsible, not Nader.

But to try to explain that to people with small minds and foaming mouths would be a waste of bandwidth.

[KG]

95. ralph makes greatest page, reactionaries shit themselves!

again. pure comedy gold. :rofl:

[Tailormyst]

96. Didn't the same thing happen a few weeks ago?

With Dennis Kucinich?

[Moochy]

118. "Great Success"

[mdmc]

97. YOU LIE!

[Cass]

99. Gore actually won. The USSC appointed Junior.

Why don't you direct your ire to the 5 SC justices who delivered the Oval Office to Junior on a silver platter?

[Forkboy]

100. Do you hold all the thousands of Dems in Florida who voted for Bush responsible also?

If not, you're just talking out of your ass and don't really care about this. If you do, hurray for the first consistency I've seen here over this.

[KG]

103. that would require critical thinking.

and looking at the <0, it seems this old knee-jerk doesn't seem to have the kick it used to have.

[Moochy]

116. If they had unrec's back then those threads would have been sub zero

[DevonRex]

142. I do. I hold any puke who votes for anybody other than a Democrat

in a presidential race responsible for everything bad that happens under the Republican governance they helped put in place.

[go west young man]

166. So hypothetically...according to your post...

if the DLC made Lieberman one of the dems of choice (which they did) all of us "pukes" would be at fault for not voting for that douche? Man your logic is fucked. This puke thinks you may be a bit "pukey" yourself.

[Hippo_Tron]

215. I generally assume that people who vote Republican are ignorant fools

(Aside from people who genuinely benefit financially from doing so)

Whereas I assume that Nader and his supporters were well informed people who either knew or should've known how dangerous George W Bush was. Are my assumptions wrong?

[GreenMetalFlake]

107. Bush/Cheney were illegally installed to carry out PNAC plans

Their 'victory' had zero to do with Nader. Even Gore says so. Let go of the mythology, already.

[Orsino]

108. Elect him to office. THEN blame him for his performance. n/t

[Ron Green]

113. +1

[tuvor]

109. Why does the ~50% voter apathy in 2000 always get a pass when blame for Bush's election comes up?

[anakie]

167. yep

as well as Gore losing both Tennessee and Arkansas. Not that they would have provided enough college votes to win but if Gore couldn't hold his own state, and his refusal to allow Bill Clinton to campaign for him put him in a bad position. IMHO as an outsider (Australian)

Peace

[invictus]

110. Progressives should always vote for whatever shit candidates the Dems put up for President/VP ...

... that is a shit statement.

[Moochy]

114. NaderHateFest 2010.1 I'm not too late!

NOW I NEED SOMEONE TO VALIDATE MY PARKING.

[spoony]

115. ...

Your logic sucks just as much than your grammar.

[blondeatlast]

117. Epic wrong--and yet I loathe Nader. nt

[MadHound]

120. You know, this is getting old, real old.

You're leaving a number of facts in your rush to demonize Nader. I know you've seen them before, because I've I've pointed them out to you over the years, but for the newcomers who don't need to be sucked in by your lies, let me do it one more time.

First of all, it wasn't Nader who decided the election, it was the Supreme Court, so why aren't you blaming them? Oh, yeah, it fits your agenda to blame Nader.

It wasn't Nader who pissed off 200,000 Florida Democrats and 400,000 self described Florida liberals over the issue of off shore drilling in Florida to the point that they decided to either go Green, go Republican, or stay home, no, that was Al Gore who endorsed the new, closer limit for off shore drilling. Gee, you think that if he hadn't done that he would have won the election:eyes: Gore did this, so why aren't you blaming him? Oh, yeah, it fits your agenda to blame Nader.

Gore was also handed the whole votescam scandal on a silver platter, names, dates, places, early in the recount process. Think about it, with this information, Gore could have not only won the election using this information, but could have banished the Bushes to the political wilderness forever, saving us all a lot of grief. But he didn't pull the trigger. Again, Gore failed to do this, so why aren't you blaming him? Oh, yeah, it fits your agenda to blame Nader.

Furthermore, during the recount, the Gore campaign did a half assed job of recounting votes. Instead of going back and actually recounting all the votes, the Gore campaign tried to cherry pick their way to victory. A consortium of newspapers came in after the dust was settled and actually recounted all the votes, like Gore should have done, and found that, VOILA!, Gore actually won in Florida. This was a failure of the Gore campaign, so why aren't you blaming them? Oh, yeah, it fits your agenda to blame Nader.

Finally, even that great Democratic guru and head of the DLC at the time, Al From doesn't blame Gore. In a post election dissection From clearly states that according to the research and testing done by his organization, Nader didn't hurt Gore in Florida, quite the opposite, Nader helped Gore in Florida by taking away more Republican votes than Democratic ones: "The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. When exit pollers asked voters how they would have voted in a two-way race, Bush actually won by a point. That was better than he did with Nader in the race." <http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=179&contentid=2919> So if From isn't blaming Nader for Gore's loss, why are you? Oh, yeah, it fits your agenda to blame Nader.

This whole blame Nader schtick of yours is not only getting old, it's getting transparent. You trot it out every time that there is discontent in the liberal wing of the Democratic party and try to use it to beat those contentious liberals back into submission. Well you know what, shove it, it's not going to work. If the Democratic party wants to retain liberal voters in the party, then it damn well needs to start rewarding liberals with some serious bones, something that they haven't done for the past thirty plus years. The party needs to stop this ever accelerating rightward drift that has been going on for the same amount of time. You cannot continue to simply be the lesser of two evils and still expect liberals to embrace you. We will go elsewhere, and you know whose fault that is? Blame the goddamn Democratic party, that's where the blame lies, for the dissent among liberals and for Gore's failure to become president. So take your agenda and shove it, your little Nader bogey man simply doesn't work anymore.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. +1

[Moochy]

125. +1000

[racaulk]

154. Thank you!

:applause:

[unapatriciated]

192. this post should be an op-I would so knr it

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. And the voters in Tennessee who didn't vote for Gore had NOTHING to do with it

Right?

[trumad]

124. 97,000 Floridians voted for this guy

That made a difference.

[Moochy]

126. WHAT? not THE difference?

You said "a difference." Your fanciful causal chain requires you to be a bit more definitive, and less indefinite in your article selection. dont let the facade slip. He was responsible for everything that Bush and Cheney did.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Once again. Gore did not win his own state.

But that little factoid always seems to be left out of these I hate Nader conversations.

[trumad]

134. OK--- let me ask you this...

If Nader didn't run---would Gore have won?

That factoid is always left out.

Fuck Nader

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. Maybe not

if he can't win his own state.

[trumad]

158. Bullshit.

[madinmaryland]

146. Dude. If Nader had not run, Bushco would still have stolen Florida.

It might have been a little harder, but they would have done it.

How about the Jewish Community that went 90% for Pat Buchanan. :wtf:

Yeah, they were going to steal that election anyway they could. Nader just gave them a bit of cover to do what they planned to all along.

[Moochy]

147. There was no foul play!!!

Nader did it all. He organized the Republican staffer flash mobs to halt the recount and everything!



If you look closely you can see a reflection of Ralph in one of the staffer's glasses, he's wearing his red jumpsuit and black cape with horns.

[bvar22]

160. You are making a HUGE and False assumption.

You are assuming that those who voted for Nader would have cast their vote for the Democratic Party candidate if Nader had not run.

What you FAIL to realize is that those who cast their vote for Nader had had ENOUGH of an Anti-LABOR, Free Trading "Centrist" Democratic Party, and the majority would have cast their vote for another alternative, or stayed home.

The FAILURE in 2000 was a Democratic Party strategic failure of NOT covering The Left.
The SAME strategic FAILURE they are repeating TODAY.


The DLC New Team
Working Class Demoicrats Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

[SOS]

210. If Gore had picked Bob Graham (D-FL)

instead of that albatross Lieberman, he would have won whether Nader ran or not.

[Hippo_Tron]

216. People who vote Republican are generally ill informed (low information voters)

I presume Nader voters to be much better informed and thus people who should know better.

[joeybee12]

128. Nope...not a Nader fan, but who's culpable are all the Senators who

knew Bush was lying, but were cowards and let him get away with it.

[DevonRex]

139. I don't think you can say that here on Nader Underground. Nader is GOD I tells ya!

Fuck you Nader.

:hi:

[johan helge]

217. Nader Underground? That's a good one.

In 2000, BEFORE the election, I could watch Bush on TV, but Nader, that was too much. Nader knew what kind of guy Bush was, and still he helped him.

And the former Nader voters make me sick. Have they learnt anything? Have they taken responsibility for not trying to stop Bush? Of course not. Just silly excuses.

[Moochy]

143. fuck hyperbole

[Wind Dancer]

145. WOW!

Misplaced anger perhaps? :eyes:

Get a grip!!!!

[Rebubula]

148. I Proudly...

...UNREC this piece of silly tripe.

We NEED a 3rd Party....we NEED other options.

You know...the Big Dog could have been a LOT MORE FREAKING helpful for Gore. He basically turned his back on Gore.

[bvar22]

150. WOW... Some people believe Nader is SUPERMAN!

Nader single handedly knocked the wheels off the entire Democratic Party and caused Gore to lose the election in 2000!

I always though Nader was kind of wimpy, but I must be wrong if he could achieve this super human feat.

Is Nader really that STRONG?...
OR
Is the "Centrist" Democratic Party really THAT weak?

The dogma of "Centrism" and "Triangulation" has moved the Democratic Party so far to the RIGHT that it has left a HUGE VACUUM on The Left.
If not Nader, someone else would have filled this vacuum.
Its plain physics.
It is foolish to try and blame Liberals for NOT voting for a Conservative.

Blaming Nader only accomplishes one thing:
It allows the conservative elements of the Democratic Party to avoid facing the glaring weakness of the current Conservative Democratic Party.


If not Nader, then someone else would have filled the vacuum....
Unless you choose to believe that Nader is SUPERMAN !!!

[ima_sinnic]

153. so democracy DOES work--"democrats" need to catch the clue train

if we're screwed over bad enough, "Sarah Palin" isn't going to scare people into voting for the "democrat."

it is a pleasure watching the corporate kiss-ass corrupt fake plastic-smilers writhe and squirm and try to "blame Nader" because people just ain't buying their sheeit.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShamelessHussy]

151. This indicative of our problem in politics today - NO RESPONSIBILITY

Everyone cops-out and points the finger :shakes-head:

[conscious evolution]

155. unrec

Nader had nothing to do with the coup that the USSC helped facilitate.

[CreekDog]

156. I cannot stand Ralph Nader --but you are completely wrong

blame is not a useful tool if you equalize it among the perpetrators and those who were only ancillary to it.

[harkadog]

159. Nader has done more for progressive causes on any given day

than you have in your entire life.

[johan helge]

218. Without Nader, no Bush presidency

And Nader knew what he was doing, he knew what kind of guy Bush was.

So did many of his voters.

But have any of them learnt anything? Have any of them taken the responsibility for helping Bush?

Of course not. Just silly excuses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. wow. what a terribly dishonest argument.

[inna]

165. jesus, what sick tripe.

an incredibly stupid post.

:thumbsdown:

[Romulox]

171. Agressively stupid. Unrec. nt

[Unvanguard]

172. No, he isn't. He was an enabler, not a participant. But, yes, fuck him. n/t

[Ron Green]

176. The Winnah! The shittiest post of the New Year.

Unrec to the 23rd power.

[Nader Supporter]

179. Nader re: corvair and 2000

The fact is that many people were dying and being needlessly
hurt and maimed, the great Ernie Kovacs among them, in
accidents that were caused by the Corvair’s design faults!
This does not indicate small ‘problems’. And detroit didn’t
try to fix things; they didn’t thank Nader… they sent
detectives after him to try to discredit him! They weren’t
interested in innovation; they were building junk and they
knew it. See and read “Unsafe At Any Speed.”
You should be thanking this great American; your anger is
misplaced.
 
…if you look at the dvd of “An Unreasonable Man,” it quite
clearly states that Mr. Nader became interested in auto safety
when a law school friend of his, who had a wife and 4 kids at
the age of 28, was in an accident that caused him to become a
paraplegic. He was a trailblazer with his 1959 article for the
Nation magazine about the designed-in dangers of automobiles.
This was a totally novel topic at the time since these
machines were basically being sold as part of the American
Dream. At that time, he did not single out any particular
vehicle, but instead wrote: “…Almost no feature of the
interior design of our current cars provides safeguards
against injury in the event of collision.” He gave specifics
about “…doors that fly open on impact, inadequately secured
seats, the sharp-edged rear-view mirror, pointed knobs on
instrument panels and doors, flying glass, the overhead
structure–all illustrate the lethal potential of poor design.”

He went on to write about a safer alternative that had been
tested:
“… the car body was strengthened… doors were secured…occupants
were secured… interior knobs, projections, sharp edges and
hard surfaces have been removed and the ceiling shaped to
produce only glancing blows to the head…the driver’s
environment was improved to reduce accident risk by increasing
visibility, simplifying controls and instruments, and lowering
the carbon monoxide of his breathing atmosphere…”

He also wrote about changes that increased pedestrian safety
as well. This was a totally novel topic at the time. In fact,
Henry Ford II put a safety package option in their cars in
1955-56. It had seat belts and a padded dash, etc and was
extremely popular with the public. But then, General Motors
called up Mr. Ford and said that if they didn’t stop it they
would undercut Ford and put them out of business; Ford decided
to drop the safety package! The reason for this was that car
companies did not want the Federal Government to tell them how
to build cars because, they feared, then they would tell them
about mileage and pollution control… that was an easy sell in
Detroit! That meant more to the executives than the lives and
safety of the public. This is all documented in An
Unreasonable Man.


 the car manufacturers could not keep up with the demand for
the safety features; they made the decision not to continue
due to pressure from General Motors and fear of further
government control, rather than caring about the consumer and
the environment. Furthermore, the car makers tried to blame
the accident’s on the “nut behind the wheel,” and tried to
abdicate any responsibility in the midst of all this! The
engineers, who Nader used to interview in secret, admitted
that they knew all along that they were building junk!


… Nader originally gave the story about the problems of U.S.
cars to James Ridgeway at the New Republic who wrote an
article on car design and public safety which, among other
things, stated that this car that was being marketed to the
general public was “…inherently dangerous…” When publisher
Richard Grossman called him up and wanted a book, it was
Ridgeway who said that Nader was the man to write it as he
knew more “… than any other 10 people in the world on the
subject of auto safety…”

This was not a popular subject at the time. He took the idea
of the “nut behind the wheel” and revealed the truth that cars
that were being built were unsafe.

…if you read “Unsafe at any Speed,” one of the things that
stands out is, on page 7, the testimony that dealers of the
Corvair were *never* instructed to tell the public that tire
pressures were crucial to safety. He goes on to write on page
33, “…The car was built and sold as ‘easy handling’, as a
family sedan, ‘as a car that ‘purrs for the girls,…”. Although
other cars were unsafe, it is the marketing of the Corvair
that seems to make it’s safety issues that much more deadly!

Nader cannot be called a politician in the sense that we
typically use the word. When the book first came out, GM sent
detectives to try to discredit him and actually sent hookers
after him to try to get him in a compromising position that
would discredit him. How many “politicians” could stand up to
that? This was proven in a lawsuit that Nader won and what did
he do with his money? He did not “… go to Disneyland…”… he
used it to start his campaign “…for the people…”.

Also, if you see “An Unreasonable Man,” you will see, among
other things, some of the laws Mr. Nader is responsible for
e.g. The Freedom of Information Act, OSHA, The EPA, the clean
air act, the clean water act… he is estimated to have saved
over 500,000 lives just from the National Highway Traffic and
Safety Act that LBJ signed and that Nader was responsible for.
In short, this is one of the greatest friends the American
people have had for the last half century… but the human race
is famous for not knowing who their friends are.

I feel no sympathy for the car companies and the argument that
Nader’s work inhibited innovation or safety is simply not
borne out by the facts; it was, in fact, the greed and
short-sightedness of the auto executives!

In regards to the 2000 election, the short answer is this:
the reality [and you can know this for yourself if you see
http://www.anunreasonableman.com is that
gore threw the race in ‘00 at least 3 times:
1.] when, at the beginning of his campaign, he and lieberman
stopped trying to say things that the people wanted to hear
because their corporate paymasters yanked their leash [see
“crashing the party” by ralph nader]
2.] gore now ADMITS that he didn’t try hard enough to contest
the voting irregularities
3.] if you see michael moore’s FAHRENHEIT 9/11, you can see
with your own eyes Al Gore shouting down the congressional
black caucus’ attempt to question the voting irregularities on
a ‘point of order’ which is like saying that, if i mug you,
you can’t yell for help if we are in a ‘quiet hospital zone’.
Besides, there were a total of six third party candidates, all
of whom got more than the # of votes that gore ‘lost’ by, so
why blame nader?
the dems [or the car companies for that matter] blaming nader
for their losses is like a hooker blaming their v.d. on mother
theresa…!


I mean, the democrats wanted the biggest job in the world and
blamed their mistakes and losses on the man who gave us the
EPA, OSHA, the freedom of information act, and so much more?
it’s just baloney…
and, as far as someone saying :
“Easy to drive, easy to fix. That was the Corvair. Take that,
Ralph Nader!”
…sad to say, it was also easy to die in…

[Nader Supporter]

184. Nader Bio [brief]

Are people even aware of Nader's contributions?

this is from “On The Issues” http://www.ontheissues.org/Nader_Reader.htm

Since 1996, when Nader made his first presidential run, people have considered Nader a political figure. But in fact that is not the focus of his career — his actual focus has been as a consumer advocate and legal activist. His long list of accomplishments include:
1965: Published “Unsafe at Any Speed”, about GM’s Corvair, and started the movement for auto safety which resulted in seat belts & airbags, as well as the establishment of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
1966: Coined the phrase “Corporate Welfare” and started the movement to address the issue.
1971: Founded “Public Citizen” (the formal name for his group nicknamed “Nader’s Raiders”), an umbrella organization of groups working on consumer rights and government corruption. Nader’s organizations are credited with establishing:
The Safe Drinking Water Act
Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
The Consumer Product Safety Commission
1980: Founded Multinational Monitor, a magazine covering multinational corporations
1993: Founded the Appleseed Foundation, a funding organization to assist with local change and activism.
2000: Published “Crashing the Party”, about how the two-party system quashes outside opinions and candidates.

[ima_sinnic]

194. thank you for taking the time to write those informative posts

unfortunately, Nader has been targeted by the powers that be as a scapegoat for the simple-minded to prevent any critical discussion of the one-party system and the great thefts of 2000 and 2004. as you can see, this campaign to make Ralph Nader responsible for the failings of the Democratic Party has been somewhat successful as people too lazy and/or stupid to think for themselves take up the anti-Nader chant. It's much easier to do that than to actually think about anything, or to accept the fact that the 2000 election was a coup and the Democratic Party aka DLC neocon fake "democrats" simply cannot cop to a winning strategy and aided and abetted that coup by not backing Gore in demanding a recount and raising holy hell.

[bik0]

180. In what context did he say that?

Do you have a link? I can't believe that he was advocating - like he WANTS things to get worse.

[bik0]

181. In what context did he say that?

Do you have a link? I can't believe that he was advocating - like he WANTS things to get worse.

[20score]

182. No he's not. And saying something like this shows a distinct lack of

a logical thought process.

[glen123098]

183. All Nader did was run for office.

Its the system thats responsible for Bush. If we had a instant runoff system instead we wouldn't have to blame third parties for idiots like Bush getting elected.

[LooseWilly]

185. It's all democracy's fault!!! How dare anyone challenge the Coke/Pepsi dichotomy??

It can't possibly be the fault of the Democrats for having a sucky candidate & even suckier platform which turned off so many voters that they "voted with their fingers"?

No, it's not the responsibility of the Democrats to run a candidate and platform that will draw voters... the only job of the Democratic party is to be a little bit less Republican than the Republicans. Because it's only D or R... because someone on tv said so...

Talk about rigid & stale thinking...

Piss up a rope.

[MH1]

188. yes you are right, and remember "there's not a dime worth of difference"

:puke:

as I posted upthread I initially supported Nader ... until I realized he is INSANE and doesn't actually give a shit about people in this country.

[punkin87]

189. Not even close!

[era veteran]

191. He should have been pragmatic and dropped out

I feel I could have done much better than shrub but pragmatically I know I could not win. His ego is too large. We would have fucking WON. I will never like or respect him again.

[Raineyb]

195. He didn't have to. When will you get it through your skull that Nader was under

NO obligation to do a damn thing to make things easier for Gore to win. If he'd ran a better campaign it wouldn't have been close enough to steal but that is all on Gore. It is not Nader's fault if what he said resonated with a part of the voting populace because Gore couldn't be bothered to try to appeal to them.

[MH1]

196. "under no obligation" - well, when you put it like that ...

Wow. Just wow.

:wow:

:banghead:

[era veteran]

200. So you got Bush

Get that thru your skull

[ima_sinnic]

203. yeah, we "got Bush" because people voted for Bush, they wrote in names,

they voted 3rd party, they didn't vote at all. For whatever reason, they chose not to vote for Gore, as they are allowed to do under our constitution.

But we really "got Bush" because the Supreme Court appointed him. If you think that if Nader hadn't run, Gore would have somehow magically "won," I have a bridge to sell you.

But don't let anybody's constitutional rights stand in the way of your 11-year-old Nader hate.

Next time, run somebody they want to vote for and we won't "get Bush."

[era veteran]

207. So how did that 8 years of bush work out for you?

Politics, Pollyanna, is a dirty, arcane, tit for tat, bunch of shit. Big people can give it up for the common good. I suggest you read for comprehension, I never said I hated Nader, you did. Piss on that bridge shit. EIGHT YEARS!!!!!!! Useful fools

[Name removed]

223. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

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[Bonobo]

198. How DARE people vote for someone that represents their politics!!!! nt

[Flaneur]

199. What's the point of posting this warmed over horse shit?

[TheKentuckian]

201. Nader is a self-important, irresponsible, and arrogant jackass

but to equate him running for office with telling the lies and issuing the orders is utterly foolish and somewhat contemptible.

How the fuck is SmirkCo not responsible for their own misdeeds and crimes?

How was Nader to know that SmirkCo would win and how can he be accused of the same malice and forethought?

Ease up on the stick there. Nader may well of played a part but it ain't in the same town much less ball park as Bush.

Also, I assure you more Democrats actually flat out voted Bush than Democrats and progressives combined voted for Nader. The frustration may be well placed but it is clearly blown way the hell out or proportion which is now just creating easy scapegoats.

If you want to blame someone for Bush and most certainly for Reagan then there are some millions of Democrats that are far more deserving a good raking over the coals that seem to avoid so much as a cross word.

[ima_sinnic]

202. apparently the game has to be "handicapped" for the Democrat

like when Mom or Dad plays checkers with the 7-year-old kid, they "let" the kid win every now and then, or maybe even all the time--whatever--it's natural not to want to exploit lack of skill in a little kid and to let the kid feel the thrill of winning.

Therefore, from now on, no other candidate except for an officially designated Republican should be allowed to run against a Democrat, because Democrats are too inept and unskilled to actually win on their own--if they're competing with someone else for "liberal" or "progressive" votes, they might lose, because progressive voters might want to vote for someone besides the Democrat OR the Republican, because god knows they're getting harder and harder to distinguish nowadays. Of course, that still does nothing about rigged voting machines, media-controlled primaries and elections, corporate sponsorship of candidates, and other hard-core tactics, and you'd have to make a law that people can't write in names or sit out an election (hey, it could be called mandated voting!)--but at least the playing field would be "fair" so the Democrat could "win." I think the situation in Iran might be kind of like that--maybe we should adopt their system.

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

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[shadesofgray]

204. I once felt that way. No longer do. And if I hadn't stopped feeling that way pre-2008,

one year of Obama's policies would have done it.

[Bonobo]

205. Seriously, this OP makes you sound like a stupid idiot with poor judgment.

I mean, it is a stunningly ignorant comment. Wrong on so many levels that it is shocking.

[LaPera]

208. Complete bullshit....obvious from one who doesn't know jackshit nor

even cares to accurately, or even how to "connect the dots"....just jumping from dot to dot then bullshitting the gullible to justify ones own prejudices, blame, hate and sickness - trumad old man!!

[johan helge]

220. You really impress me

- good, precise arguments, not at all just trying to shout the other guy down!

Nader is not as responsible as Bush, but, of course, he's partly responsible. So are you, if you didn't vote for Gore.

[Marr]

209. Mmm-hmm. Yeah, it's Nader's fault. That makes sense.

:sarcasm:

[johan helge]

212. Perhaps not "just as responsible", but I'm so glad you said this.

Without Nader, the Bush catastrophe would not have happened. And many earlier Nader voters shamelessly try to confuse this simple fact.

And now, just a decade later, "Naderite attitudes" dominate DU, many liberals won't contribute in the fight against the Repubs. They can and should show their disappointment in the primaries, but not in the elections.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7354478&mesg_id=7354478

[Meldread]

213. It's been a decade - get over it already.

Like every American, Nader, Buchanan, and anyone else who wanted to or wants to run for President has that right. Likewise, each American has a right to vote for whomever they want. It's up to each party and candidate to gain the support of voters and win the election.

It's called democracy. If you want a one party state I suggest looking into buying a home in China.

[johan helge]

219. The shamelessness of the Naderites

is endless.

Gore and his supporters desperately tried to fight the fire. But the Naderites tried to make people stop fighting the fire.

The fire became a catastrophe, and all they do now is trying to blame the people who actually tried to stop the fire. The audacity of shamelessness.

[Hippo_Tron]

214. No he's not, but his actions were irresponsible

George W Bush is far more responsible for everything George W Bush did than anybody else, that's the bottom line.

What Nader did was still irresponsible. This isn't the 1950's where if the Republicans win there is a good competent man in the White House that we simply disagree with. The Republicans are batshit crazy far right wingers in this day and age and their nominee in 2000 wasn't fit to be dog catcher let alone President.

It is irresponsible for anybody who is cognizant of the fact that Bush was not fit to hold office (and I presume Nader was aware of that fact) to do anything that might enable that person to come to power. If the left in Weimar Germany hadn't irresponsibly decided to fight amongst themselves, they might've been spared Hitler.

[Prometheus Bound]

225. This OP is a good reason never to post when stinking drunk.