carp fight heats up, Obama takes sides

[ensho]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0106/Michigan-balks-at-Obama-s-stance-in-Asian-carp-fight


Michigan balks at Obama's stance in Asian carp fight

The Obama administration announced Tuesday that it is backing Illinois in a lawsuit over how to stop Asian carp from entering the Great Lakes. Officials in Michigan, who brought the lawsuit, claim that Obama is favoring his home state.


Michigan has reacted angrily to the Obama administration's decision to back Illinois – the president's home state – in a lawsuit about how to stop Asian carp from infesting the Great Lakes.

On Tuesday, US Solicitor General Elena Kagan asked the US Supreme Court to reject Michigan's lawsuit against Illinois. The lawsuit calls for the closure of two Chicago locks on a key commercial canal that connects Lake Michigan to the Mississippi River.

On Wednesday, Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox asked for an immediate meeting with Obama and Michigan congressional leaders to discuss the matter. He said in a public statement he “is extremely disappointed by President Obama's choice to protect the narrow interests of his home state.”

-snip-

Lock closures would be detrimental to the state for many reasons, including commerce, she adds. The channel generates $30 million in annual revenue, according to the American Waterways Operators, a trade association representing the tugboat, towboat, and barge industry. The canal also serves as a transportation channel for safety efforts in downtown Chicago and it redirects sewage that protects the lakeside ecosystem, Madigan adds.

“There are very significant economic, safety and environmental impacts that were not taken into account by Michigan,” she says. “We don’t want the carp in the lake either but shutting down the locks at this point could be incredibly detrimental to the state.”

-snip-

The US Supreme Court is scheduled to address the filings Friday.
----------------------------------


this is a very important issue and bears watching

[TwilightGardener]

1. "Bears" watching.

[ensho]

2. lol thanks

nt

[joeybee12]

3. "We don't want carp in the lake either BUT..."

Tells you a lot about Ill's priorities.

[berni_mccoy]

6. delete.

my bad, I misread the snipped portion.

[joeybee12]

8. Then i question MI's motives...

...these long defenses and then BUT always seem suspect.

[berni_mccoy]

10. No, you were right, I misread it.

[joeybee12]

14. Then I guess I'm back to questioning IL's motives...n/t

[berni_mccoy]

4. delete.

misread the post.

[SidDithers]

9. delete...

I think we agree :)

Sid

[berni_mccoy]

11. Yep, I misread the snipped pieces. After reading the article, I see that.

[bluedawg12]

5. 4ft long, weigh up to 100lbs and jump high when startled

with no food value, no commercial or sport value, no known predators and known to dominate their competition. Something sure needs to be done.

[TwilightGardener]

7. Why can't they have sport-fishing value? Sounds like a real fight

to hook one of these guys. Might be fun.

[MineralMan]

17. They're plankton eaters, so they won't take bait or lures.

[TwilightGardener]

20. Ah. Thanks.

[bluedawg12]

23. I wondered why they can't be ground up for pet food or feed? n/t

[MineralMan]

28. They can, and will be turned into fish meal.

If the population rises enough, they'll be netted and ground up. Asian Carp are actually quite good-eating other than their boniness. They're eaten in Asia, anyhow.

The commercial fishermen in the Great Lakes will certainly go after these if their populations warrant it. Fish meal they will become.

[shireen]

33. i thought they were grazers?

They're tearing up the submerged vegetation along the Delaware Bay coast. I've seen sections of marsh erode away due to destruction of underwater grasses.

[MineralMan]

50. Not these fish. They're plankton eaters.

Some other fish is causing the problem you mention. Perhaps the common carp, which has been in our waters since the 19th century--introduced to be a food fish. Problem was, nobody wanted to eat them. The European immigrants preferred the less bony native fish. In Europe, they were a poverty food.

[elehhhhna]

55. well then we'll import some noodlers from Louisiana.

[MineralMan]

58. There ya go!

[MineralMan]

15. Actually, they do have commercial value. They are eaten

in some places, and there's always the fish meal market. It is true that they are not sport fish, since they're plankton feeders. What their impact will be in a body of water the size of any of the great lakes is still unknown.

[HopeHoops]

22. Send them to McDonald's - they HAVE to be better than the shit they pass off as "fish".

Hell, they'd make a better beef burger than what fast food joints pass off as "hamburger".

[dysfunctional press]

65. as far as fast 'food' goes- burger king has the best fish sandwich...

it used to be called 'the whaler', but now it's just called the 'bk big fish'. same sandwich, different name, as whaling rightfully lost it's favor around the world. (except for you-know-who)

[dugaresa]

18. they are eaten

check out this article.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5542199

[HughMoran]

19. They were talking about making them animal feed

So that might bring some commercial value to 'em.

[TheWraith]

25. They do have some food value. It's just that carp isn't a popular food fish.

And that they're damn hard to catch in any normal way.

[berni_mccoy]

12. Wow, check out this pic

Those are asian carp after being disturbed by boats.

[MineralMan]

16. That reaction is primarily in rivers, where they are crowded in schools.

I doubt you'll see such in any of the Great Lakes. Anyhow, if they congregate in those numbers, they're going to get netted and turned into fish meal.

[TwilightGardener]

21. LOL--that is weird.

[TheWraith]

26. I would say that's the key to controlling them.

Clear out the banks of the river for safety, then send through military patrol boats armed with fully automatic 12 gauge shotguns spraying the jumpers with steel shot. You'd have a lot of dead fish to deal with, but it would seriously depopulate their swarms.

[MineralMan]

31. Useless. It's far easier to net them, then grind them up into

fish meal. Nobody cares what fish is used in fish meal. Commercial fishing for them is already going on in the Mississippi River. There's your control mechanism.

[TheWraith]

39. But the other thing would be fun to watch.

Not to mention you could probably make it cost neutral by getting people to pay for rides on the gunboats. :D

[MineralMan]

48. An utterly useless control method.

It's the kind of thing only someone who was not on the water a lot would think of.

[TheWraith]

60. Perhaps you can fish yourself up a sense of humor. nt

[MineralMan]

62. I have a very good one, thanks. This is not that humorous

a subject. It's a serious issue, and gun nuts won't be of much use.

[shireen]

34. i've seen something similar, except it was spawning behavior. nt

[MineralMan]

13. The sad reality is that, no matter what they do,

These carp are going to end up in the Great Lakes. They're probably already in there, based on the finding of DNA near the lake. If they're not, closing the locks will only be a temporary solution. Eventually, the locks will be opened and the carp will go through.

They could poison the entire river, but the carp would still get through, eventually, and that would destroy all the other fish in the river system.

Lake Michigan and the other great lakes are big places. The impact of these asian carp is really unknown in such large bodies of water. Their jumping habits will probably disappear when they aren't closely confined.

Will they do damage? Probably. Some. But it's unlikely that they'll wipe out the habitat. More likely, in a body of water that size, they will find spots they like and populate those spots. The young of the species is likely to be forage for the predatory fish in the lakes, just as the gobies are now. Everyone was scared of the gobies, but they've served well as forage for trout, bass, pike, and other species, which are thriving wherever the gobies are in high numbers.

Again, it will be impossible to stop the asian carp, in the long run. They WILL get into the lakes. The solution is figuring out how they will affect those lakes and to manage them.

[bluedawg12]

24. I agree they will get into the Great Lakes - you raise good points

So far what we know about them is from rivers and not large open lakes.

I am hoping they could be ground up for feed, pet food or fertilizer?

There is concern that even in small groups, if disturbed by boaters they are large and jump high and weigh a lot so they can cause boaters and skiers injury.

I wonder about the wisdom or impact of poisoning them. Doesn't that affect other parts of the biochain?

[MineralMan]

29. You can't poison the river. That would never be allowed.

They're already being fished commercially in the Mississippi. Some are used for human food. Others are turned into fish meal. They're easy to net.

There is a market in China and other countries for this species as a food fish. Whether it's economical to ship them frozen is a good question.

In any case, all efforts to stop them will fail. Those efforts already have failed with other exotic species, and they will fail again. Time to start figuring out what to do when they do get into the Great Lakes. It will be impossible to keep them out.

[blue_onyx]

32. Why is it impossible to keep them out?

If we close the locks and leave them closed, they will have no route to get into the lakes.

[MineralMan]

37. I can guarantee that they will not close the locks and leave them

closed. Too much money is involved in river transport. Besides, the fish will come in via other lakes. You can't close all the locks. Barge transport of bulk materials saves so much money and uses so much less energy than any other transport method that it will probably be expanded, not stopped. It's green technology of the most valuable kind.

Besides that, the carp are almost certainly already in Lake Michigan. They just haven't found them there yet. As far as I know, they have never actually managed to keep an exotic species out once it is close. By the time they recognize that there may be a problem, it's almost always too late.

[blue_onyx]

42. I hope Michigan continues to fight to close them...

and keep them closed. The lakes have a huge impact on MI's economy so we must protect them. Chicago/Illinois' economy is not more important than Michigan's.

"Besides that, the carp are almost certainly already in Lake Michigan."

That's just an assumption without proof to back it up.

[MineralMan]

44. It is a prediction, not an assumption.

Sometime in late April or early May, some angler will spot the first one in Lake Michigan and report it. It will probably be a dead one. State Departments of Natural Resources, whatever their names, are usually way late with these things, because they can't afford enough field staff, so it's staff in offices who deal with this stuff.

With the bighead and silver carp, they're about a year too late in trying to halt the invasion. That's typical. They've done the same thing here with the zebra mussels. They're in most waters in Minnesota now, but the prevention measures are just being implemented. Too little, too late. Same with the Eurasian Milfoil. The prevention measures are a joke, since the stuff is being spread by waterfowl, not anglers.

Remember my prediction when you hear the news about either a bighead or silver carp being found in Lake Michigan this Spring. Where there's one, there are a thousand.

[blue_onyx]

47. Rather than sitting around making predictions

I would rather close the locks and stop the carp. Even if there are some carp in the lake, closing the locks will keep the problem from getting worse.

Obama is completely wrong. He needs to remember he should be doing what's best for the country, not what's best for Chicago/Illinois.

[MineralMan]

51. Moronic. Some carp is the same as lots of carp.

They breed, you know. They breed fast. The young will make nice forage for the bass, walleyes, and pike, though. If there are some in the lake, next year there will be lots more. The year after that, lots and lots more.

I have nothing to do with this decision. I'm just telling you what is almost certainly the case. Obama's making a decision based on advice from people who know the situation, I'm sure. I'm not alone in believing these two species are already in the Lake. Probably have been for a couple of years already.

You do know that they only jump when disturbed in confined areas, like rivers, right? If, as I expect, they're already in the lake, nobody's seen them yet. Soon enough, they will start showing up, and it will be sports anglers who will find them. They won't catch them, but there will be dead ones here and there, near shore.

Closing the locks will not stop the carp. What it will do, though, is get some people who depend on barge transport to go down the river, net a few, and plant them in Lake Michigan, and there you go.

It's too late, already.

[blue_onyx]

54. Your predictions are "moronic"

If there are carp in the lake, we should close off the source and try to contain, manage, and/or destroy the carp population that is in the lake. Wouldn't managing a carp population in the thousands be better than managing a population in the millions.

All your posts make these assumption:
-that the carp are already in the lake
-that "their jumping habits will probably disappear when they aren't closely confined"
-"it's unlikely that they'll wipe out the habitat."


What are you basing these predictions on? Do you have a scientific degree that makes you knowledgeable on this topic?

[MineralMan]

57. I'm an angler, and a lifelong student of freshwater fish.

Those are my qualifications. I have made a prediction, based on many years of observation of the abject failure of state agencies to control the spread of exotic species. You may not like my prediction, and it's possible that I'm wrong. Time will tell.

If you can find a single instance where the spread of an exotic species in freshwater has been successfully stopped over a long period of time, I'll reconsider. The lamprey is about the best example I can think of, but it has not been eradicated. Its numbers have just been reduced.

The Great Lakes have had introductions of non-native species in the past, specifically to meet the desires of anglers. The Coho (silver) salmon is one of those. The common carp is widespread in the Great Lakes, as well. That's an exotic from Europe, deliberately introduced. The Round Goby, which I've already mentioned, got into the lakes in ballast water. It is causing few problems, and is actually benefiting the species sports anglers are interested in.

What the impact of the bighead and silver carp will be in the Great Lakes remains to be seen. Ten years from now, we'll probably have some idea. It might be major, or it might be minor. I'm guessing that it will be relatively minor, more of a nuisance than a disaster.

We'll find out if I'm correct, sometime down the road.

And you? What are your credentials?

[blue_onyx]

68. So you go fishing...that's your qualifications?

I don't have qualifications. You don't need any special knowledge to know that invasive species can have a massive impact on the environment....which is why people are fighting to keep the carp out of the lakes.

You, on the other hand, are making these predictions on the behaviors of the fish as if you were some expert. How on earth do you know that the carp won't jump in the lake? Seems you are pulling these predictions out of thin air based on nothing.

[MineralMan]

71. You know, you should come have a look at my library.

It's full of books on fish. Most of them are textbooks. The same textbooks the folks who make fishery research their career use and have studied. I've read them all. Some of them more than once. Since I'm an angler, knowledge about fish helps me be a better one.

It's one of my avocations, and I've studied fish, mostly freshwater, since I was 16. I'm 64 now, so you can do the math. A degree is not the only way to gain knowledge.

Ask me a question about a fish and I'll give you the answer. I've even helped folks at the MN DNR to locate a species they wanted a sample of. One Conservation Officer asks me frequently about what forage the pike are eating in a lake I fish frequently. It's something I like to know about. I even study the plankton in the lakes I fish so I know what's going on there.

Seems to me you are assuming that you have any idea what I know about freshwater fish and their environment. You do not.

You are correct. Sometimes, an invasive species has a large impact on the environment. Sometimes it does not. As far as the Great Lakes go, the biggest impact has been overfishing by commercial interests. To counteract that, fisheries people have introduced non-native species into the Lakes to try to correct the problems. I mentioned some in another post. It hasn't worked that well, except for the measures taken to control the sea lamprey, which did work very well, indeed.

Am I an expert on fish? Yeah, pretty much. Do I have an advanced degree in the field? Nope. But, I'll be happy to answer any question you might have about them.

Not all experts hold degrees in the subject of their expertise.

[bluedawg12]

38. They want to poison a 5.7 mile section of a canal.

"It was determined that the most effective option to control the spread of Asian carp is the use of rotenone in a 5.7 mile section of the canal between Lockport and Romeoville (where the electric barrier is located). The rotenone will eradicate Asian carp and other fish, only in that confined section of the canal. The treatment area is an optimal location because there are no tributaries and it is below the confluence of the Cal-Sag Channel and Sanitary and Ship Canal."
http://www.asiancarp.org/rapidresponse/faq.htm

[MineralMan]

41. Rotenone is a short-lived poison. Unless they close the locks

permanently, it will be useless. Besides, my prediction that they're already in Lake Michigan will be proven correct next spring. Watch and see. The first ones will turn up in late April or early May. And, it will probably be a local angler who will spot the first one.

Mark my words.

[bluedawg12]

43. The fish are already in the Great Lakes, the locks and poison won't matter.

They are here. I just wanted some info. on the rationale for the poison and it's possible unintended consequences. Just like the fish were brought here for one reason and messing with nature backfired, adding poison to a sector has it's risks. That's what I was trying to discuss.

[MineralMan]

45. Yup. They're already in there. The news of the first finding of one

in Lake Michigan will come in April or May, when some angler finds a dead one while she/he's fishing. I can almost guarantee it. Then there will be headlines and wailing and gnashing of teeth. The time to have stopped this fish ended when it was first introduced to those "private" ponds near the Mississippi. Dumbasses.

Now, the battle's already over. The carp won.

[bluedawg12]

52. Messing with nature. "Life finds a way" : Jurassic Park.

Reminds of that saying in Jurassic Park when the female dino's reproduced, "Life finds a way." The fish got out of ponds due to massive flooding along the Miss. River. It's more likely than not that the have managed to spread far and wide and our natural resources are just more bodies of water to them, if they could swim past the electric barrier, which was NOT 100% fool proof, then, likely, they have.

Just an FYI for anyone interested, this is the lead researcher on this, from Univ. Notre Dame:
http://biology.nd.edu/people/faculty/lodge

If I recall his interview from NPR, he was cautious but did say there was a chance they were in the Great Lakes already.

[gmoney]

35. Invasive species are the worst.

at some point, they will be all that's left.

[MineralMan]

40. Maybe. Probably not.

We have had many invasive species in our waters. None have proven to be as horrible as first thought. Start with the common carp, a deliberate introduction back in the 19th century. They are in virtually every lake and river in most of the country. While they roil the water a bit, all the other species are still doing fine.

Then there's Eurasian Milfoil, which everyone was certain would be a horrible, horrible thing. Not so. While it can choke some small, shallow lakes, it has the benefit of sheltering the young of our native fish. Those are thriving in the milfoil, as I can attest. I catch more bass in and around milfoil than I ever did around native vegetation.

Then there's the zebra mussel. Now, it does cause problems by clogging things like water intakes, no doubt. That's fixable. It also acts to clear water of overgrowths of algae, and several species of native fish have learned to eat zebra mussels. Bluegills and other sunfish are thriving in lakes where there are zebra mussels. Big ones, too. Anglers are happy. Minnesota's about to figure out that the battle against zebra mussels is over. The mussels won.

There was a big uproar over a species of goby that was accidentally introduced into the Great Lakes. Turns out that it's doing fine there, and serving as forage for all of the predator species, which are growing large and healthy. The fisheries have improved due to the increased forage.

I could go on and on with this, and keep naming exotic species that weren't as bad as expected for the local environments where they've been introduced.

It's good to keep exotic species out of the local environment. But, when they've been introduced, the native species adapt, for the most part. In some cases there have even been benefits, overall.

[flvegan]

56. Seem like a big fish. Do they have any natural predators in those lakes?

[MineralMan]

59. Not as adults. They'll be one of the largest fish in the lake.

Juveniles, however, will, no doubt, be eaten by largemouth and smallmouth bass, northern pike, and walleyes. Those are the top of the food chain predators in the Great Lakes. I'd add Muskellunge, but there aren't enough of those to do much. The new food source may well cause an increase in numbers of those predators, and help control reproduction of the asian carp species.

Salmon and lake trout will eat some juvenile carp, but probably not a lot.

The carp will compete with other plankton eaters in the Great Lakes. These include the Lake Herring, Bloater, and Alewife, along with the fry of many other fish. The Lake Herring, Bloater, and Alewife are important forage fish for predator species, and both have populations that are, and have been falling, due to over-fishing by commercial fishermen. They are turned into fish meal for the most part. Asian carp make excellent fish meal, as well.

Asian Carp fry and fingerlings should be quickly accepted as forage by the predators, most of which will eat anything that swims, including their own young.

[MineralMan]

61. Another note:

The Asian carp are not predators. They eat plankton and sometimes decaying plant life. So, they won't compete directly with other predatory fish. The competition will be with the very young fry of other species and the other plankton eaters in the lake.

It's too bad these two species of carp can't be caught by anglers. If they could, I will guarantee that anglers would avidly fish for these fast, strong species. I fish for common carp quite frequently, as they are also large and excellent sport. Even though they are non-native, I practice catch-and-release with these fish, as they do in Europe, where carp are a major sport fish. Here in the USA, carp fishing is becoming more popular, but is still in its infancy.

So far, my largest carp was 35 pounds, caught in the Mississippi from a dock in downtown St. Paul. For me, they compete with catfish as my favorite large game fish.

[flvegan]

63. Thanks. I noted from your other posts

that they weren't desired by anglers. You're quite the resource on this topic, thanks again.

[MineralMan]

66. No problem. I've been studying freshwater fish since I was about

16, for selfish purposes as an angler. The amount of stuff I have read and still read is enormous. It all helps me with my success on the water. Since I've moved to Minnesota, I've been studying the fish in the upper midwest.

[flvegan]

69. That makes sense.

This is obviously going to be a fairly decent sized issue and will probably garner considerable attention on DU. I'll continue to look for your posts/responses in those future threads. Thanks again.

[dysfunctional press]

64. exactly.

ultimately- there's no stopping them. they WILL become a part of the great lakes ecosystem. it's just a matter of time, and industries that depend on the lakes will have to adapt if it affects them.

[MineralMan]

67. I'm afraid so. A commercial fishery will start up for these

invaders if they're successful in breeding. Fish meal is fish meal. Commercial fishing has affected the fish populations in the Great Lakes more than any other thing, and far more than the several exotic species that have found their way there. Overfishing is a real problem. The Asian Carp? Who knows?

We'll find out.

[blue_onyx]

27. Obama is wrong

The Great Lakes need to be protected. These fish could have a massive impact on the lakes and to be stopped.

[Mugu]

53. Sounds to me like you're just anti-immigrant.

Perhaps a bit of bigotry against brown-scaled creatures.
 
 
 
 
 
Just in case it's needed...



:sarcasm:

[bluedawg12]

30. Here is some info on the poison , also poss. Omega-3 oil from the carp.

http://www.asiancarp.org/rapidresponse/faq.htm

"There are three species of Asian carp that are considered invasive and a threat to the Great Lakes, the bighead, silver and black carp. Silver and bighead carp are filter-feeding fish and consume plant and animal plankton at an alarming rate. Bighead carp can grow to very large sizes of over five feet in length and can weigh 100 pounds or more. Black carp differ in that they consume primarily mollusks, and threaten native mussel and sturgeon populations. They can grow to seven feet in length and 150 pounds...

...Rotenone is a natural substance derived from the roots of several tropical and subtropical plants in the bean family. Use of this toxicant in North America began in the 1930s in ponds and lakes as a tool to sample fish populations or to completely eradicate undesirable fish populations. Rotenone is approved for fishery uses by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA)...read more"

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/jumps-peoria-today-human-food-chain-tomorrow.php

"This nondescript metal building at the end of a long, country road soon will begin to transform the Asian carp, known for destroying the Illinois River’s native-fish ecosystem and causing havoc among boaters, into two valuable commodities. All while helping the environment...The process begins at one end of the building, where the fresh fish are weighed and put into an industrial-sized meat grinder.

From there, the loose-meat mix gets baked fast and hot until it becomes a brown, sawdust-like material. After that, it gets squeezed through a press to extract the Omega-3 oil."

[dembotoz]

36. obama 100 percent wrong on this

they tried electric barriers with very limited success because the stupid corp of engineers won't turn them on at the required voltage and then seems they don't appear to be that reliable..

block off the canal until they figure out how to stop the migration.

time for obama to stop being the illinois politician and be the great lakes president he promised to be.

if they are that damn commercial, lets work that our where the carp are already plentiful instead of some bullshit idea of letting them in the great lakes

[JNelson6563]

46. Unhappy Michigander here.

WTF? Sometimes I think he thinks he's President of Chicago. Only.

[blue_onyx]

49. I know!

He may regret this decision as we approach the 2012 elections.

[1]

70. i have a solution. let's set up an international "save the carp" campaign...

with a commission and hippie protesters and "carp shepherds" in black boats. we'll promote the world idea that carp are not to be touched.

the japanese will be all over this. in short order there will not be a carp anywhere near the great lakes...

[MineralMan]

72. There ya go!

:evilgrin: