i'm on the verge of giving up on job hunting.

[Lerkfish]

I"m not receiving unemployment, either.
last december, I was laid off. I took a job with a company that ended up being untenable, paychecks were bouncing, people's medical insurance was not paid by the company so their doctors refused to treat them....and they have sinced been sued by the state for refusing to pay the state the employee taxes that were being witheld from our paychecks.... in other words, a real piece of work place to work, so I had to quit before the cobra from being laid off ran out.

unemployment refused to put me on the rolls because I quit, even though it was the smartest thing for me to do.

that's just the background in order to point out that even though I"m unemployed, I know for sure I don't show up on any unemployment statistics put out by the govt.


ok, so why am I on the verge of giving up? I"m 50. The only industry that is hiring people doing what I do is run and owned by people usually 35 or less. Their staff's average age is usually around 25.
I rarely get a chance to interview.

I've thought about dying my grey hair, but honestly, you can tell I"m 50 regardless.

anyways, the last straw was last week. From my WORK and resume, they invited me to interview.

I showed up and waited in the reception area. One guy (about 30) walks in and contemptously (but in a whisper) asks the receptionist "who's THAT guy waiting for?". The receptionist tells him I'm the interviewee.

The guy says nothing to me and walks back to his office. The receptionist takes me back and yes, you guessed it, that was the guy interviewing me. I was a bizarre interview. Instead of like a normal interview, where they spend some time chatting or asking about your philosophy about work, etc. Instead, it was immediately grilling me on the most complicated programming techniques. It was an obvious "gotcha" exercise, trying to trip me up rather than find out what I know.. he even used a term I was unfamiliar with, and when pressed to explain what he meant, it was clear he was using terminolgy particular to his OWN COMPANY, which of course I would not recognize. There were other clues....
I came with a portfolio booklet and a DVD with flash animations on it. At some times, when grilling me, I offered to show him examples on either one and he just said, "oh, we don't need to do that, just answer the question".
At one point, he says "well, I could ask you if you had any questions for me about the company, but that's probably a waste of our time".
Then, after only fifteen minutes, he says "well, I'll see you out" and he gives me the bum's rush out the door. It was all over so quickly, and THEY INVITED ME TO INTERVIEW, and I had driven quite a ways ( 2 hours) in a snow storm to get there.

At first I tried to go back over what I said to see if I made mistakes, but honestly, the interview was engineered against me the moment he saw me in the reception area.

This is not the first time this has happened over the last several months. but usually they are more diplomatic about it.
I had a very depressing drive home in the snow storm and realized this industry is never going to hire me.

so, I"m giving up for now. I'm going to concentrate on redoing my website, yet again, in the hopes of appearing more attractive to the youngsters...but I am giving up essentially.I"ve won international and national design awards, even a pulitzer, and this is what happens to me.

I understand how the elderly eskimos felt who were pushed out on ice floes to die


sorry for boring everyone, but I wanted to point out that I"m a non-statistic but I am real. The unemployment numbers are larger than any statistic will tell you.

[Tunkamerica]

1. Well, you wouldn't have enjoyed working with that guy anyway.

My dad had the same problem. He's several years older than you and in the computer field as well. It took him almost 2 years and he had to settle for a much lesser job but he did eventually find something. He also had the disadvantage of being overweight which he feels hindered his search quite a bit.

[Journeyman]

2. Where are you located, Lerkfish? . . .

[Lerkfish]

11. ohio

;)

[CitizenLeft]

47. I'm in Ohio too. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Happened to me too. Age discrimination seems particularly prevalent in the IT industry, which is what you're in, right? Been there. I was on a help desk - a lead analyst, no less - for 6 years. I got interviewed at a large call center by two little 25-year-old half-wit twits with zero people skills who were almost as bad as you described. It's infuriating, and yes, depressing. Whether or not you decide to give up, you have my support and prayers. Don't let the bastards get you down.

[Lerkfish]

49. thanks, its related .... I'm a graphic designer and web/flash animator

but these companies are IT related.

thanks for the good thoughts, though.

[CitizenLeft]

61. you're most welcome. Hang in there.

Though I've no doubt I'm nowhere in your league, I tried creating a web design company myself back in 2004. That was just when the do-it-yourself websites started sprouting up - like Intuit, the newest - only $4.99 a month. Sheesh. I got more than a few nibbles, but nobody wants to pay for expertise and talent any more, they want the cheap and easy way, even though I was waaay underpriced. It was disheartening. But you have more skills than I - I was only mediocre with Flash, and self-taught at that - maybe you'll be able to get a position with one of the established design firms. Sounds like you have awesome skills - I hope you don't give up. :hug:

[Matariki]

87. Have you thought about looking for work over the interweb?

I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head, but when I was freelancing I remember seeing sites where you could post your portfolio and bid on jobs, etc. The only thing that would matter would be your portfolio and skills - not your age. btw, I'm in the same age group and about to look for a new job. I keep hearing stories like yours and it's not encouraging.

[CoffeeCat]

103. Lerkfish----please look at this company--may be an opportunity!

Lerkfish--This company is near me, and I know that they are growing by leaps and bounds. They
recently had a job posting in my field, and I researched them a bit.

http://www.qagraphics.com/

If you look in "About Us" you'll see "Careers". In their career area, they specifically
say that they are always looking for graphic designers, web designer flash developers and
animators/modelers.

This is a "green" company. They customize visual front ends/graphical interfaces to corporate energy systems.
I think this company has great long-term prospects. They are constantly announcing that their offices
are expanding. More companies are "going green" and getting into using energy more efficiently--so I see
this as a very promising business.

I know it would mean a move--but it can't hurt to send them a resume and see what happens.

Best of luck to ya!

[mod mom]

204. I'm in Ohio too & my husband told me today 40% of architects in Ohio are unemployed.

The firm he works for has gone from ~ 120 to 50. He is still employed but had a major pay cut as did everyone who is left.

I really hope Obama & the Democrats realize how many people are having their lives ruined over the job situation. They need to act swiftly to get folks back to work.

So sorry to hear about the asshole who interviewed you. Maybe soon the tables will be turned on ho,.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. Some of those young twits seem more interested in having people

to hang around with than in finding someone to get the job done.

I had that experience years ago when I applied for a copyediting job at a weekly rag. The average age of the staff was under 30, and the atmosphere was dorm lounge.

[CitizenLeft]

66. yep, that's probably part of it.

They had very little respect for my experience, even though the company I had worked for was on the leading edge of call center technology and was a much larger and influential entity. Jerks. Even though it was good money, I'm glad I didn't get that job - I would've hated it. I'm very happy in my job now, though terribly underpaid. Still... I'm happier. :)

[SharonAnn]

156. I get a kick out of the young IT people who think they know everything.

They have to learn the "old lessons" the hard way.

Some just don't believe that any previous experience could be relevant to the "new" stuff.

I find it all the time since I started programming mainframes in 1966, was a data base administrator as early as 1973, developed on-line transaction based applications in 1976, etc.

My question with any programming language is "how does this one work?" You use the programming language that's best suited for the application.

And, believe it or not, there's a lot of basic foundation in the "old ways" and sometimes the new ways just take pieces from several of the "old ways".

And some of the newbies are more interested in the technology than getting something done that works.

End of rant.

[CitizenLeft]

189. good rant - you're absolutely right!

This generation is building off of what the pioneers developed when WE were kids. No respect for what came before.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

191. I can relate to that,

I love the firm I work for but our support staff, including and especially HR is useless.

I have to fight for virtually everyone I want to hire, because if HR had their way everyone who comes in the door would either be:

1. A potential wealthy husband,
2. An unmarried sorority bimbo they want to go clubbing with,
3. A flamboyant gay dude they want to keep as a pet,

And unfortunately they usually get their way since virtually all the support hiring is done entirely through HR with no management involvement.

These millennial types want to apply high school clique rules in the office, and unfortunately they tend to get away with it.

When I hired a forty-something married woman about a year ago you would have thought I had just hired Charles Manson by their reaction.

[wickerwoman]

193. Or people that are easy to boss around.

I used to sit in on hiring meetings. I was desperate to get some people with actual experience instead of more super-passive recent grads. I shared a department with a 28 year old guy who, because he was responsible for day-to-day productivity, had the final say on hires. And he *would not* even look at anyone over 25 because he didn't want to have to argue with anyone who knew better than him. He would only hire 20-21 year old kids that he knew would never stand up to him (and who also had no experience, often very little talent and who had absolutely no initiative whatsoever. The few who did show enthusiasm or initiative had it crushed out of them almost instantly.)

Meanwhile the same company would brag about how young the managers were in stockholder updates but it never occurred to anyone that having your three main middle managers at 25, 28 and 32 and none of them willing to work with anyone older or more experienced than them, meant a serious, serious skill deficit in a lot of areas and an ungodly amount of pressure put on inexperienced people promoted too soon.

[YOY]

3. I believe in you Lerk.

Don't give up. This world is full of assholes.

I (in my 35 year old way) was in your shoes a few years ago. The contemptuous whispers still happened even though I was in the age range you think makes things easier and I had a few interviews that were over before they began. One so very rudely so that I had no problem thanking the guy for "wasting my fucking time in his quest for a subject matter expert with 10 more years experience for a 35K salary position."

Of course I didn't get the position...but there wasn't jack I could have done to get it...and this guy was a jackass that nobody would want to work for in the first place. THe end result being a boost in my self esteem...a needed one.

There is always next time.

[niyad]

4. wish I could offer some help--but will think good thoughts for you finding a great job, soon.

believe me, we all know that the "official" unemployment figures are so much bs--

[Warpy]

5. Unfortunately, you're going to have to do what a lot of people have done

and that means take on a patchwork of low paid, dead end, part time jobs just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. It sucks for everybody. It sucks especially for those of us over 50.

Eventually, something in your field might open up at a smaller company where the head of HR isn't some brash young idiot who thinks he's always going to be 30 years old. Or you might do freelancing and consulting, depending on what your field is.

It's just going to suck for a very long time.

You'll get your revenge when you're 70 and living on social security and listening to that punk whine about how nobody wants him any more.

[Tansy_Gold]

37. Warpy's correct, and if you're able to freelance/self-employ, DO IT.

Being self-employed is one of the best tax-shelters there is.



TG

[TheWatcher]

85. Assuming there IS Social Security by then.

[Warpy]

94. The doomsday rhetoric hasn't changed since the late 1930s

but social security keeps on going.

It would be a real help to get it out of the general fund, but they'd have to raise taxes on the sainted rich to do that.

[polly7]

6. Sorry you had to interview with a creep.

It sounds like you have more talent than two 30 year olds combined, someone will see it and be grateful. Hang in there. :thumbsup:

[truedelphi]

7. I am posting the following notice on a bulletin board near my home

"It has come to my attention that several decent hard working older job seekers have been denied the right to even receive an application from some of the employers in this area.

"This could be the makings of a Class Action Suit. If you or anyone you know has been denied employment or denied the right to apply at ________, pls call 555 555 5555.

Thank you."

You might make up such a flyer and fax it to this man. Sort of a "heads up" kinda thing!

[MindPilot]

8. Do you have the opportunity to appeal the unemployment decision?

don't know what state you are in, but here in California if you quit with good cause, it doesn't disqualify you from receiving unemployment. Bouncing paychecks is a pretty damn good reason to quit.

[AlecBGreen]

9. sorry Lerk

hang in there :hug:

[ima_sinnic]

10. I read your post with a mounting sense of outrage

how can people be so fucking cruel and inhuman--and why WOULDN'T he want the best person, rather than the "youngest"?

the guy was obviously an a-hole, and as noted upthread, you would not have liked working for him. This was just not meant to be.
please don't give up. My brother (age 55) is in the same field & has managed to carve out a small niche as a Web developer, but I know he has had some dry spells--but there are people everywhere (myself included) who work for themselves, and that number is growing as more and more become unemployed, and they need web sites (is that what you do? sorry if I misunderstand here). Somehow you need to figure out how to make yourself known to them, it may take some creative thinking (sorry if that sounds lame, this is not my field at all).

[undeterred]

12. Age discrimination is against the law

and its stupid on the part of the employer. I am experiencing it also, but I can't afford to give up.

[Lerkfish]

13. I really can't afford to give up, either.

the really stupid part is this was a contract position, not even a permanent hire.

[undeterred]

21. I had an experience something like that with a recruiter.

They're mostly twenty-something guys and they can't imagine that they're ever going to be 50. There was a young guy who kept in touch and kept trying to submit me for positions until he met me in person. Within seconds I think he decided that I wasn't going to be as marketable for him as a young white male.

[matt819]

72. You've probably thought of this

After a number of false starts, after seven years I decided (and found the money) to redo our website. We looked at four developers in the region (New England) and settled on one about an hour from where we live. As far as I can tell, this group is a "virtual" company. There are a few full-time people who work out of their homes. The owner drums up business, another person rides herd on the process, and then there's a project manager assigned to our site. I'm not sure, but I think the other folks - graphic design, e-commerce integration, coding, SEO - are all subs, though my guess is that they do much of their work for this company. At least one of the other companies that provided a proposal has a similar sort of arrangement, and I know that the developer I've used for the past several years does the same, at least with the graphic design component.

Granted, there must be thousands of these sorts of operations, some good, some great, and some utterly appalling, and trying to figure out who's who can be overwhelming. But this might be the way to go. (Think about it - if 100 DUers were to provide the names of 4 legitimate companies in 100 different regions, that's one heck of a start.) With a good website that quickly and clearly demonstrates your skills, you might even be able to avoid the experience you describe, since you will have demonstrated your expertise online before you meet anyone. In this regard, a friend of mine who owns a couple of businesses is also in the market for a new web developer. She may meet with the company I'm using, but at the moment she's considering a developer in Florida. That developer might be fat, skinny, old, young, male, female (or all of the above). It doesn't matter. But she likes their portfolio, they seem to be on the same design wavelength, and the price is right. As a result, they may come to an agreement without face-to-face contact.

As the subject line observes, you've probably already thought of this, but I thought I'd weigh in. Believe me, in my mid-fifties, I'm relieved that I'm running my own business (even in this economy) rather than having to confront the realites of the job market.

Good luck.

[blues90]

78. There is no way to prove age discrimination. nt

[undeterred]

95. I'm sure there have been age discrimination suits

which succeeded. But its pretty difficult to prove anything about why you don't get your foot in the door unless you had complete knowledge of who applied and who was selected. Even then, it would have to be a habitual pattern.

[Tesha]

88. It's very hard to prove, though.

When Mr. Tesha was laid-off from his previous position, the statistical
information that his ex-employer was required by law to provide to him
made it clear that they were dumping all the expensive older employees.
But our attorney advised us that any legal action would be difficult,
unlikely to succeed, and would certainly imperil the "go away quietly"
money that his ex-employer was offering.

The system is rigged and there's nothing you/we can do about it until
we have a government that works for the people instead of the corporations.

Tesha

[katkat]

154. Tesha

When my last employer laid me off, the age documentation showed they dumped the older employees without exception, like they sliced off the top of the age pyramid. I had to sign a won't sue document to get the fairly minor layoff package. Plus who has the money for an attorney for years of suing.

[dysfunctional press]

14. my 51 year-old wife just landed a design job in chicago.

she starts tomorrow, after her last position went away in september, after a two-year stint.
i don't know where you are located- but are there any temp agencies for creative types you can sign up with?
my wife had 3 interviews in december, one of which turned into her new job- and she got them all through temp services.

[CitizenLeft]

50. good idea.

I was out there for 5 months. Try Robert Half/Accountemps, they're very good, and actually FOLLOW UP when you don't find an assignment, rare in a temp agency - most just ignore you after you sign all their damn forms. It actually took me 5 months to get my FIRST assignment through them, but it turned out to be my last - I was hired full-time after 6 months of temping. Mind you, I also had 16 years of accounting experience, and that's where I landed, not in IT/help desk - but they also temp IT people. Try it, you never know where it might take you.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

15. Very disheartening. Sounds like it's their loss.

:hug:

[Christa]

16. Dear Lerkfish

My husband is in the same position and it is n uphill battle just to try and stay positive.

Do you attend attend any job clubs in your area? My husband attend a couple a week and although he still has not find a job, at least he gets out of the house and communicates with other people. It helps to keep him sane.

We live in such difficult times

:pals:

Try not to let these JERKS get to you.

:hug:

[Lerkfish]

19. thanks for the kind note... i guess I'm just venting but it seems impossible

I'll try to find a group like that, its a good idea.

[KoKo]

138. Lerkfish...Temping if you can do it...

Our small business has used temp agencies for our website. We had several really young guys who just couldn't understand what the 50 something partners in the business needed to do with the website..(too much geek speak for the non-technicals). After several tries we found someone we can use who's around 50 who is better at communicating. We can't pay steady but call him up when we have a problem. I think he gets other jobs through the agency. Also the temp agency we use is small and local..not one of the well known national. Maybe there's something like that where you are in Ohio. Lot's of struggling start ups and consulting firms (made up of 50 & 60 year olds tossed out from the big companies) are out there. If your area of Ohio has a Business Journal (Google it) you can find some small companies mentioned that you might even give a call on your own or show up at their door with your business card.

I'm in NC and we have "Triangle Business Journal" but I believe they are part of a loose network around the country in other states.

Anyway, you might have already tried this route...I'm just passing it along in case you haven't. Plus, it seems you can communicate since you've been around here and that's important for the older not so tech savvy folks who are struggling to try to get a presence on the web to promote their business but can't afford to pay full time. They have to find a person they can work with who understands what they need but only on a part time basis...because we are struggling, too.

[Waiting For Everyman]

17. What about an age discrimination lawsuit?

At your skill-level, it might be worthwhile to check into. Google-search a firm in your locale which specializes in such things though, don't consult with a "generic" law firm. It sounds to me like you have what might be a good case. If it could be done on contingency, you have nothing to lose.

[Lerkfish]

23. its damn hard to prove it I think that's why the gotcha questions

i think that was their "out".

[Catshrink]

26. but those questions were unreasonable

How were you to know their proprietary aps? The interviewer wasn't smart enough to realize that, you are.

[Lerkfish]

27. I agree with you, but I don't bring a tape recorder to an interview

with a jerk like this, all he has to do is lie.

[tango-tee]

115. You were treated disgracefully.

While I try not to wish bad things upon anyone, in this case I hope that some day that little snot-nosed twerp of an interviewer is on the receiving end of exactly such a raw deal as he gave you.

As a 55 year old female, I was only able to get a new job in my field through sheer coincidence, lots of luck and knowing many people in the field. I'm in aircraft maintenance, the Big Boss of the company I worked for at the time had a screaming fit right there in the hangar, called me an asshole at 3 p.m., by 3:05 I had grabbed my purse and left, never to return. Better to leave than smacking him with a wrench, I thought. Since I quit on my own, there were no unemployment benefits forthcoming. I can certainly understand that there are times when hanging on to a job for the hell of it can't be done for your own sanity, and in your case, financial security.

But so many posters on this thread have great ideas. I do wish you the very best of luck - and let us know how things are turning out!

[femrap]

82. Karma will get that

little snit.

I wish I had your skills.

[Odin2005]

18. Damn, that sucks! :(

:( :hug:

[Catshrink]

20. I'm sorry you had that experience.

I agree with the other posts that you working for that twit would have been hell. This sounds like a clear case of age discrimination -- the little punk didn't hide his prejudices very well and that may come back to haunt him. How about setting him up? Do you know someone about your age who could pull off an interview? Make up a resume similar to yours, send your friend off to do it, and if he has a similar experience, bingo! How far do you want to go? Find someone younger, similar resume, and see how the interview goes. Find out who the punk hires for the job. This could be actionable. It may not improve your situation but making the guy's life hell might be kind of fun.

[Saturday]

22. Sorry Lerk. But I just wanted you to know....

that my son is under employed (but at least he has a job to pay the bills). He is looking for another job also. He's only 34 and doesn't even get the courtesy of a reply from companies. There are so many people of all ages out there looking that sometimes being 30ish doesn't help. I wish you the best.

[defendandprotect]

24. Used to be that even if you "quit" after 5 weeks or so you could get unemployment/????

Think that was how it went .... ???

I know Repugs have changed everything over decades of their destructive policies --

And, agree, unemployment is huge in America -- 15 years ago, or more we certainly had

16% unemployment and it's only gotten worse. This is all hidden from the public intentionally.

I remember that one of my first ideas when I was trying to be actively involved in politics

was to get the unemployed united. Turned out some others had had the same idea at the time.

You know, just go talk with people on the unemployment lines -- and get them together.

It was pretty much political dynamite, evidently.

Everyone is entitled to a good job -- we have to push Obama/Dems harder on creating them --

and NOT thru corporations for some trickle down crap jobs which provide a way for the

corporations to earn money rather than creating jobs! We've seen that before!

Noticed you said you drove 2 hours in snow storm -- wow!

Is the only hope something out of your area?


I hope you soon have some good news -- best wishes!

[Lerkfish]

25. so far, the only jobs seem to be a long drive

I was all set up to get an efficiency apt. and come home on the weekends.

[defendandprotect]

41. Do you have family where you are now . . . ?

And I just noticed someone commenting on having to "interview with a creep" ---

Even in best times job hunting was always depressing ---

and someone as insensitive and purposefully difficult as the guy you interviewed

with is so much worse -- and so much harder on you.

Byron Dorgan was commenting the other day that this is the most serious recession

since the Great Depression. What he was communicating, IMO, was that this is a

depression -- and I agree.

Best wishes --

[Lerkfish]

43. yes, I have a family here.

a wife and a miracle child we had at 40. so its not just me.
I would relocate in a hearbeat for a permanent job, but all I'm getting to interview for are temp jobs.

[defendandprotect]

92. GOP has destroyed so much . ..

there was a time when temp jobs sometimes offered bigger opportunities --

Imagine the whole temp industry now could be just exploitation?

Wishing for a happy ending here --

[Karmadillo]

28. Did you appeal your unemployment compensation denial? If you didn't,

are you still within the deadline for filing?

[Lerkfish]

46. the problem was it was an interstate issue.

the job that laid me off was in Ohio, the check bouncing job was in california, but I had to move back to ohio to file.

[Fire1]

29. File a complaint with EEOC for age discrimination. It doesn't

cost you anything, you never know what will come of it and you won't feel so helpless. I would relay that incident, and any others if there are any, exactly as you described it in your post. DON'T GIVE UP!!!!

[Lerkfish]

44. all I have though is my interpretation... I know I'm right, but its not quantifiable.

[Fire1]

67. The fact that you are qualified and may even be more

qualified than the person they actually hired, is proof in and of itself. The fact that they requested an interview and the noted attitude change may be all you need. It never hurts to discuss the situation with an EEOC representative to see if you have a case. Repercussions of filing, should that be the case, is also illegal and should be discussed, as well. The bottom line, at this point, seems to be that you really don't have anything to lose.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. You owe it to the other interviewees who were given the same unfair treatment.

A pattern of behavior by a prospective employer IS quantifiable.

[sharesunited]

60. I do believe that such a complaint is a public record and will subject the petitioner to blacklist.

A background check by any employer would quickly disclose the action and could label you as a trouble maker.

[Fire1]

64. I would discuss that with an EEOC official and hear their

response to that. If that's the case, there is no point in having such a commission and if a person can't get hired withOUT their involvement, what's the difference? He's not getting hired anyway!

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. What a jerk that guy was! *hugs*

[XemaSab]

31. The census doesn't pay shit

but they're hiring. :P

[katkat]

158. census

I went in to take the census test. I have my fingers crossed.

What they told me is that at some point they may call you, depending on your test score, if you are a veteran, etc. Basically they put criteria into "the computer" and names pop out. Can take months.

To my surprise, the people there were quite interesting. I was expecting a deadly boring environment, but one benefit of all the downsizing is that bright interesting folks wind up with you down at the bottom :-)

[Jimbo S]

196. I had that experience.

Took the test in 1989 when the economy was decent. The room had quite a number people unable to use common sense. Just being honest.

Took the test again a couple of months ago and I'd say the overall IQ of the group was significantly higher.

[XemaSab]

221. When did you take the test?

You can call them and get your score, and if you don't like your score you can retake it. :)

[democraticinsurgent]

32. Lerkfish Consulting

If you're up for it, that is.

I'm not too far from your shoes. Marketing professional, Mid 50's, laid off in mid 08, couldn't get any interviews. So i started my own company, which I have done before.

It's really not easy by any stretch, but it's possible, especially in the marketing/online realm. All you need is one or two good clients or a series of projects to at least make it halfway worthwhile.

Recommendation: look into BNI and other local networking groups, jump fully into social networking, put yourself out there and see who you can meet.There IS work out there, but it takes a lot of persistence to get it.

[Lerkfish]

52. LOL! sounds like a good name.

:)

[Learning Nomad]

33. Hang in there Bud, I got rehired at 52 for a great job in Sept.

Thought that I was unemployable as well.

[Lerkfish]

42. thanks, that's encouraging...

sorry for being so discouraged.

[RebelOne]

124. I was also rehired at 57 at a job that I love.

I am now going on 71 and I'm still here. I don't plan to retire for another couple of years. I would be bored if I didn't work. Plus, I don't have enough savings built up yet.

[madrchsod]

34. i know how you feel....

i guess i got lucky and retired at 62 so i could draw social security.


the worse thing you can do is give up trying to find a job

[lapfog_1]

35. Same boat, same story.

I have an extensive kernel programming background, numerous published papers and 3 patents, founded my own company and sold it to a major player in the computer backup and storage field. My patents were all in an area called "de-duplication" ( a truly awful marketing jargon term ). I recently had a contract at IBM (they wanted me as an FTE but there was a hiring freeze). The contract was terminated 13 months ago as of now (they terminated all of their contractors). Since then, I've had just a few interviews (I'm over 50), one of the interviews was at a "leader" in the field of de-duplication (a field that *I* founded). When I sold my company in 2003, I signed a non-compete agreement so this was my first foray into the field again.

First round of interviews went well, they were all with the executive team. But, before they could make me an offer, they hired a new engineering manager, and she wanted to interview me as well. Most of my experience has been with Linux and Unix kernel stuff, all written in "C". She thought it was all written in C++. She wanted to know what C++ experience I had (none). Then she had me interview with a kid from her newly inherited department. He wanted me to write code on the white board to solve some made up computer science exercise (you have 10,000 values to sort, but any one of them, or all of them, can change value at any time - shared memory with another process or something, write code that sorts them and keeps them sorted with the minimum amount of time, and, no, you can't know which value changed). I have no idea of the point of the exercise, I couldn't do it. Now, I've written numerous device drivers, and one complete file system (my own invention) and a Hierarchical Storage Management system (HSM - later used as the model for the standard for the field, and helped design many many other file systems (XFS from SGI, GFS, etc). I implemented the very first RAID-5 storage array in the world (my paper on that is published in the Journal of the ACM, I funded the UC Berkeley team that came up with the concept. I founded my own company in the area of de-duplication and successfully sold the technology and the patents to a major player (who I hope sues the pants off of these idiots) for $12.5 million (but I only got a small fraction - long story).

And I can't ever get an interview with anyone. Worse, when I do, some 25 year old fresh out from India is "flunking" me because of some bullshit trick computer science question (I also taught Computer Science for 5 years as an undergrad... the only undergrad at my University to ever have the title "Instructor" - because without the PhD they couldn't call me "professor").

And, I was Chief Scientist at NASA for almost 10 years specializing in large scale computer storage systems.

Now, I can't even get an interview.

I tried to tell the de-dup company to "google" me and see my patents, my published code, my authored peer reviewed articles, or the IEEE standards committees that I've served on. Or to call any number of "legends" in the computer field and see if they know me. Quite a few of them do, starting with Van Jacobson (of the reduced TCP/IP stack fame) who briefly worked for me under contract to NASA, Dennis Ritchie who corresponded with me after my paper on RAID was published... and who made me a nervous wreck by sitting in the front row when I gave a lecture on the topic. Mike Muuss, the inventor of "ping", who I knew until he passed away in a car accident now 10 years ago, Terry Slaterly, the inventor of "ttcp" who was Mike's pal when they were early proponents of porting Unix to supercomputers, and I've met many many more, including Seymour Cray (also died in a car accident) who answered the phone late on night at Cray Research (the company I worked for at the time had serial number 7 of the Cray-1s) and I chatted with him about the inclusion of various instructions in the Cray microcode (I was doing a nearly completely Boolean Chess move generator in the Cray-1's vector instruction set and had it down to about 40 or 50 assembly language vector instructions (to generate a complete set of moves for one side - aka a "ply") except for one instruction which was not vectorized. So I wanted to know "why". He was very kind and talked with me for more than 30 minutes.

All this, and I have to write code on the white board to solve a bullshit problem that nobody will ever need to solve in the real world, so that I can work for someone that believes that the majority of the Linux kernel is written in C++. Sheesh.

Fuck it all.

Oh, I haven't collected one dime of unemployment, even though I was "riffed" from my IBM contract, because in this bullshit state you have to be a resident for 1 year before collecting, and I moved here to work for IBM and was with them for about 8 months.

[Lerkfish]

40. sounds very familiar... I was one of the first artists to introduce computer graphics

into journalism... back when the macplus didn't even have a hard drive. I've been using illustrator for over 20 years. When I say that to these young guys they try to say it hasn't existed that long, and I have to correct them that in fact it has. I think its because they were in diapers when it was first available.

anways, hugs to you too. This situation truly blows.

[kevinbgoode]

71. Ah...so you were working in journalism...a tough field now.

...but not impossible. And this might be a good opportunity for you to open that door for checking into teaching possibilities. A lot of j-schools often seek people in the graphic design area, especially with an emphasis in publications, both online and traditional.

I actually envy you - I was in the writing end for years...and still struggle with the most basic of graphics...haha.

[Lerkfish]

74. well, there are no more jobs in journalism, so the industry I have left is web design

and software companies.

[FBaggins]

132. Hey Lerkfish! Please read

Posting this here because it looks like your most recent post. Saw one other person point it out, but didn't see any replies so I wanted to make sure that you got it.

You MAY still be eligible for unemployment benefits. You need to look in to claiming "good cause". If their paychecks bounce and they aren't paying the agreed-upon benefits, then they've broken your employment contract and you have good cause.

It will be a pain in the butt, and you'll have to go to a hearing with proof if/when the employer challenges your unemployment benefit claims, but it sounds like you would win.

Best of luck!

[Lerkfish]

151. thanks!

but I've already done that. I even pointed out that the company ordered me to produce knowingly false claims on their web page.... the problem is that UE is so empty they are being more picky about who they give it to, I guess.

[lapfog_1]

73. Back in 1985

I did a stint as group manager for a CAD company (architecture). We had texture mapping and fractal algorithms for creating realistic trees, grass, shrubs, etc. We had a linked catalog of steelcase furniture where you could design your new office, outfit it with furniture and stuff, texture map actual fabric sample and wood grain pattern onto the furniture in accordance with what was available in the catalog, and then take a virtual walk around your new building, including the views of the surrounding landscape and other buildings from, say, your new corner office window. All that and a seasonal adjusted "shadow map" of what your new building would shade and what views would be blocked by erecting your building. Plus a complete HVAC design (automated) and fire protection design (also automated).
After you decided what furniture you wanted in what office, our software would create the order forms and place the order at exactly the right time for delivery (including schedule slippage) so you could move right in. Office equipment too.

In 1985.

For about $120,000 (including a very nice pen plotter for creating blueprint drawings).

Of course, in 1986 or so, someone could buy Autocad and a $10,000 PC with "professional graphics card (640 x 480 and 256 colors)" and we were out of business in a year.

At one point I had about 15 people working in my group, many of them graphics programmers and system programmers. When they asked me to select a third group for layoffs (another 4 people), I gave them just one name.

[katkat]

160. lap

That's another problem with being an older job seeker, a lot of your references are no longer on the planet.

[lapfog_1]

178. Yup, that's true.

Found out that my former boss passed away a couple of years ago from cancer. He was only 58 years old.

Makes me think that I should join them.

[katkat]

186. don't join them

Then the bastards win. Besides, if you're not living in a cardboard box, there is still joy in life.

[lapfog_1]

190. It's getting close to cardboard box...

I have a small room at my sister's house (which I don't have to pay for since I helped her buy this place back when I had money and she didn't). But, I can't go anywhere (no money for gas), I can't do anything (except post here at DU and listen to internet radio), and I eat only what groceries that my sister can afford (and, recently, she is not doing well either).

Pretty soon, it will be "will program for food" on a cardboard sign by freeway.

I no longer care if the "bastards win" (for me, they've won already).

No, there isn't much joy in my life.

[katkat]

218. lap

Do you have a bike? Or is there some place you could do volunteer work that's within walking distance? You will feel better if you can help someone else.

[lildreamer316]

167. Jesus Christ. Are you SERIOUS?

"I was Chief Scientist at NASA for almost 10 years .."

I cannot F-n BELIEVE no one is giving you a job, and they are treating you this way. Along with Lerkfish too; of course.

The best minds of this country are going to waste. Such utter bullshit.

I am so sorry.

[lapfog_1]

181. I became too specialized

and didn't keep up with more current skill sets (java, Ruby on rails, XML, .NET, etc).

I'm an old(er) kernel hacker, and there just isn't that much kernel work being done anymore.

Plus, I'm pretty sure they look at my resume and think "This guy will leave in less than 6 months if something in his field turns up, plus there isn't any way for us to afford him" (my last salary was over $150K a year, I'm now applying for $60K a year jobs).

And they have a point, I probably would.

[tabatha]

219. Somewhat hesitant to say this....

but with your obvious aptitude and abilities, would it not be possible to learn web technology. All the stuff is online. PHP and MySQL are good combos as well.

When it seemed that our company would go south, I started learning web design, and actually found a few part time jobs, some of which I still do. I know another person who taught herself, and ended getting a high-paying job.

Thankfully, we seem to be struggling along, but it all depends on others giving us orders. It is a month to month survival.

But, I may be speaking out of line.

[lapfog_1]

222. Oh, I've taught myself some php and some javascript

and some other stuff. But doing small projects at home isn't the same as doing a commercial project. Plus, it's hard to get that into a resume. Job experience wise, it doesn't help much.

[truedelphi]

198. Gawd, what an awful story. But that is how the USA is set up.

I didn't think such nonsense extended itself to someone with such illustrious history though.

I thought experiences like yours TRUMPED the usual job search and interview protocols.

I am sorry that that is not the case.

[Pooka Fey]

203. Your story scared the crap out of me. Thank you

for sharing your experiences. :hug:

[etherealtruth]

36. I don't think most people realize that this (currently) is the experience ....

... of "older" workers.

I won't quit my job despite it being the worst work environment I have ever encountered (unlike your experience our paychecks don't "bounce" and our health insurance premiums are paid) because I know that I will face the exact situation you are facing. I returned to the workforce ~ 4 years ago after being a "stay-at-home" for over a decade .... at 44 it was incredibly hard .... I have no doubt that it just keeps getting harder.

Have faith .... sooner or later someone is going to recognize your worth.

[goldcanyonaz]

38. This has been going on forever it's only being brought into the forefront now.

[etherealtruth]

45. Sadly true ... it is unfortunate that experience and maturity are not valued more. n/t

[inna]

39. no words, just HUGS.... and thank you so much for sharing your story...

:cry:


:hug: :grouphug: :yourock:

[kevinbgoode]

48. If this was a company of any size, they have a human resources department

and I believe it would be "thoughtful" for you to write a letter to their HR people about your interviewing experience. Frame it as a "thank you" for the invitation for an interview, and then make your points. Make sure you also point out that a). you are well aware that your credentials are generally far superior to younger candidates who have not worked long enough to rack up the achievements you've done; b) the interviewer openly showed a dismissive attitude toward you BEFORE you had the interview (in the reception area); c). the interviewer declined to finish the interview, review your portfolio examples and asked questions unrelated to the job description. Make sure you point out that the interviewer felt it was pointless to inquire if YOU had any questions about their company; d.) and point out that YES, you DO have some questions about the company - like is it common procedure to violate at will their own written hiring practices and policies? Is it common practice to show poor manners to an invited guest to an interview?

You should be unafraid of pointing out that yes, you need a job - and you were willing to give them a try by driving two hours in a snowstorm for a 15 minutes interview that was obviously irrelevant to the job description. Since the company engaged in a pre-screening which resulted in the extension of an invitation to interview, was their interest in hiring so insincere that they would alienate an applicant?

It seems to me that you have little to lose in airing your thoughts on this matter. You are an accomplished professional who is still expected to be an active part of the workforce, and this level of disrespect is simply not acceptable.

As far as your unemployment goes, you should immediately demand an appeal of benefits, based on the fact the state is suing the previous employer for failure to pay benefits and has already established a track record of negligance and no credibility. It should be easy enough for the unemployment board to check into this company's unscrupulous behavior.

Finally, I think - since you are at the point of giving up - that you make an appointment with your state representative, just so you can air some grievances and ask why the state's enforcement of age discrimination laws is so weak (most are). With your credentials, you never know who that rep might have in his network and what doors might be opened, and you have some legit complaints about policies AND the unemployment situation - and at this point have nothing to lose. I would follow that up with a call to the Area Agency on Aging - while you are just hitting the AARP membership age, they might be able to help steer you toward opportunities with companies which like hiring more mature employees.

It might be a good idea to secure an AARP membership - obviously, this isn't an expense you can incur right now, but you might be able to do a quick search online and find some listings for the companies most willing to hire mature staff.

Now I don't think this is going to make much money for you, but you should indeed try this -- I don't know how many degrees you have, but you obviously have a wealth of professional experience and recognition for your work. Look at every community college and university in the area for possible adjunct positions - they can often work into full time. And sometimes they hire people with only the bachelor's degree, if their professional experience is so strong that it easily makes up for lack of advanced academic credentials. Moreover, you can usually get free tuition for a couple of classes for yourself, and use those to work toward an advanced degree OR to sharpen skills. It seems like with your wealth of experience, you'd have a lot of information to pass on to young people just starting out on a career path.

My last advice would be to look around (ask the local unemployment office) and ask if there is a Private Industry Council in your metro area. If so, make an appointment and take your resume/portfolio and talk with them about your situation. There is always a chance they might have a lead or some suggestions.

The important thing is to keep trying creative angles, and don't be afraid to say something if you think you are getting poor treatment. This is a lousy economy for everyone - including that pissant little interviewer jerk who likely violated every policy publicized by his company - and a little heat on that situation will at least stop his butt from every pulling that stunt again. In the meantime, work on something positive and don't be embarassed about your situation - every time you take a step to discover more information to help yourself, you are helping others who are in the same boat.

And if you are real frustrated - you've already shown you are articulate here - contact your local newspaper (or a larger one) and offer to write a feature story about credentialed older professionals struggling in this economy, using yourself and others as an example.

The best of luck to you. . .and don't believe you are in this alone. Any of us could be in the same situation.

[Lerkfish]

51. thank you for your thoughtful suggestions

I will follow up some of those for sure.

thanks.

[DemReadingDU]

99. I'm in Ohio, happened to me too

Dozens of us appx 50-55 years were laid off, except for 1 token 29 year old, so they could say it wasn't age discrimination. It truly sucks. I doubt in this economy there are many traditional-type jobs, but lots of good suggestions for you in this thread to pursue alternative paths. Best of luck.

[Coyote_Bandit]

53. Don't let the bastards get you down

:hug:

I'm late 40's, long-term employed and own a resume that is intimidating. I'm very well educated (3 graduate degrees and 2 professional licenses), have a history of holding responsible high level professional positions and appear to have the ability to work successfully in my own office. In reality I have not followed a traditional career path and have repeatedly found it necessary to make lateral moves and change either careers and/or industries. I've also re-located for professional reasons several times which has had an adverse impact on my ability to network. Add to that the fact that some of my previous employers are no longer in business and as a result portions of my work experience is unverifiable. I have determined that I am unemployable for anything but menial positions whih do not pay a living wage. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I do not qualify for any kind of benefits or assistance whatsoever. I've cut m living expenses to the bone and am depleting my savings. Right now I'm just trying to buy some time while I re-invent myself yet again. I do whatever I can to bring in a few $$$ as an independent contractor. I've done considerable work on a non-fiction book and am seeking representation. I've become active in some community groups to widen my circle of acquaintences. I've taken every opportunity that has presented itself to travel with and/or visit family when the expense was minimal. I've learned new skills - both professional and personal. Last fall I enrolled in a metal facrication/fine jewelry program at our local tech school. I can give a positive account and recite things I have accomplished during this period of extended unemployment. I hope to be able to finish my tech schol program. With a little luck I may be able earn a bit of $$$ working in the jewelry industry - or by fabricating and selling my own art jewelry pieces. Or my metal fabrication and casting skills may enable me to get an entry level position in a dental lab - and perhaps eventually the ability to do such work independently. I believe in myself and in my abilities. I do not believe in corporate Amerikkka and am seeking to re-invent myself in such a manner that I will be a less risk in future economic downturns.

Best wishes to you.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

101. Fabrication!

Cool! Coyote Bandit, you should read ORNAMENT. Do you? They have gorgeous handmade jewelry and lampworked beads and such. Don't know how the market is holding up for that kind of jewelry.
Lapidary Journal also has handmade jewelry.

I have a BA in Biology, and a Juris Doctor. Neither of those have ever gotten me a job. Nobody calls me "Doctor", either. :wtf:

I took GIA Diamond Grading and Colored Stone Grading courses, and enjoyed them. I had a couple of really bad retail jobs selling crummy stuff mislabeled as "fine jewelry". We called it Fish Gravel in GIA classes!! Never got a job selling the good stuff but I can spot it!

[Coyote_Bandit]

206. I'm not familiar with Ornament

I'll have to check it out. I was however recently gifted with nearly 50 years of back issues of Lapidary Journal.

In addition to my metal working skills I also am a glassworker doing both warm glass (fused, slumped, enamelled, cast, etc but not including blown glass) and stained glass. I have done some lampworking but frankly it is not a skill I care to invest the time and effort to develop. I hope to produce some unique mixed media pieces.

My tech school program does include a gemology component which is taught by a former GIA instructor. We get the grading and identification skills but not the GIA credentials. Of course, our costs are also much less than GIA. What you call fish gravel we call leaverite - as in leave her right there.

I have a BA, an MA, an MBA, and a JD. All acquired over a period of 20+ years. While I don't regret any of my educational accomplishments I must say that my education is a tremendous detriment in getting a job.

[gateley]

54. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm in the same boat --

I know people aren't considering me because of my age (56). When I was young I had no problem getting good jobs, being recruited from other companies, etc., but those days are no more. It's so hard. :hug:

I've given up, too.

[goldcanyonaz]

55. Have you looked online to see if anyone else has had the same experience with this company?

[necso]

56. You can often tell

that it's going south even when it's not so obvious. For example, in the past when I applied for grunt positions, if I got a lot of questions about my leadership experience from the group manager (or the like), then (as I eventually came to realize) there was simply no chance of being hired.

Now, when I was younger (after attaining a modest amount of experience), I had a very good ratio of job offers to interviews (better than half), even when the job wasn't a particularly good match. But as I got older, I seem to hit a point where no matter what the job was, I didn't get any offers, even when the match was very good. Indeed, I got the persistent feeling that I was being interviewed simply to "fill out" (or "sweeten") the "candidate" pool (resource-squandering bastids).

And it came to the point where the only interviews I got were for jobs where they essentially had to interview you, like for government jobs where you ranked highest after testing (although I got skipped once there too -- after being number one on both tests).

I was doing some tech work (while trying to land a full-time job) at this office one time, and people were talking about choosing a new hire, and the person making the choice said (in paraphrase) "I would never hire anyone who could do my job better than me." ...

But I think there's also been a real change over time in how "horse-flesh" is chosen. (Although this may open up opportunities for those with better judgement in such matters. Not that I expect anything much to come of this opportunity; in many ways, we live in the new dark ages.)

Keep pluggin', you may get lucky.

[uponit7771]

57. do you search dice? Are you open to contracting in another area? TIA

[rockymountaindem]

59. This makes me wonder who the hell actually gets hired for anything

I've written about my experience from the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm 23. My young friends and I have trouble finding employment (except for those who are engineers) because most places ask if you have experience. Of course for us, the answer is that we don't really have much because we've just gotten out of school. If you don't have the kind of experience they're looking for, you can't get the job. Of course, if you never get the jobs you don't get experience.

The main way of getting experience is by way of internships. These of course don't usually pay a salary, and in many cases require you to pay your own cost of living if they are located somewhere far from home. Therefore it is difficult for many people in normal circumstances to take internships because they need to get some kind of McJob over the summer or during school to pay for necessities, rent and tuition. Then, they graduate without experience and can't get jobs. Once when I explained this situation to an older individual (probably in his 40s) he told me the old "you young people expect everything to be handed to you". I replied that I didn't think getting paid for one's labor was too much to ask. But of course what do I know?

For example, I applied for a job recently and had a very frustrating experience. The job was a part-time job that would have required me to mostly work from home as an editorial assistant to an academic peer-review journal (I am currently in graduate school, so this is right up my alley). My whole experience was quite the opposite of yours. I had a strong recommendation from the former editor of the journal, who is currently my adviser and program director. He was responsible for getting the current editor his job, so I thought this might be the time the phrase "it's not what you know but who you know" that started working my way. So, recommendation in hand, A+ writing sample and decent resume in my bag I went to the interview. I found out that the editor was an alum of the same university of mine, which was good. We ended up having a great chat for about 40 minutes. Everything went great.

I am no expert in anything, but this job seemed relatively simple. All it seemed to entail was managing a database of article submitted by people for publication, browsing through them and then e-mailing academics in the field to see if they would be willing to submit a review. I think the bulk of the job would have been writing professors and saying "would you read this and write a review we could send to the author?" and keeping track of who did what. Not rocket science.

Obviously this whole story is rolling around to me not getting the job, which sucked royal. I didn't get it, I was told, because someone else applied who had three years of editorial experience at another journal at a better university. I was pretty surprised that would matter because this job really wasn't an editing job. It just involved keeping track of the process and finding relevant experts to review articles. I couldn't figure out why experience would really matter. Just teach me how to do the database stuff and I would have been off. Furthermore, if this person is really so experienced, they're going to be off looking for full-time work ASAP (hopefully I'll still get this job somewhere down the road). So I don't know why they wouldn't hire me. I'm 2 years away from getting my doctorate and not going anywhere until then.

So to get back to my point, I don't see how anybody ever gets hired. You are "too old" and have "too much experience" whereas people my age don't have enough experience and can't get on anywhere unless they are engineers or majored in business (and even then, one of my friends with an MA in business currently works at a call center dealing with insurance policies). I guess if you're not between 30 and 40 (maybe 45) you're SOL.

Have I mentioned that this whole era really sucks?

[etherealtruth]

63. In this economy .... the answer is very few

I think you are right .... the optimum age is between 30 and 40 .... you've had a chance to gain experience yet aren't considered "old" .

It really sucks, I am just as sorry for your experience as I am for older unemployed workers.

[XemaSab]

68. My suspicion about why bosses prefer young people

is some of those young people are in fact stupid enough to go for the unpaid internships, or the $8.75 an hour. Older, more experienced workers don't put up with that shit.

[rockymountaindem]

76. All they need is this tacit collusion throughout the economy

that all entry level jobs will now be done by unpaid college interns, and then suddenly that is the only kind of career-oriented work available for 18-24 year old individuals. It's not as if we can look at internships and say "forget it, I'm going to take a paid position elsewhere". Once all those positions start becoming internships, which they generally are in a lot of fields, there's no choice. We're stuck. It's like after one airline started charging for checked bags, everybody did it. Now if you want to go anywhere that isn't serviced by Southwest, you're going to be paying for checked bags because that's the way it's done. Same with these internships.

I've decided I'm not going to work for free anymore. Maybe that will end up hurting me, we'll see. The sad thing is that when I tell people that, including my peers, they look at me like I just said "I'm going to the barricades".

[Berry Cool]

102. I sympathize with you.

I went through all that crap when I was young and inexperienced and the unemployment rate was high. I, too, could not afford to take unpaid internships, and as a result it was much harder to find work in my field after I graduated. It took four years of underemployment in marketing research before I could do it, and even then, that job alone didn't help; publishing my own newsletter on the side as a labor of love, I think, did.

Of course, the irony of it all is that now I'm on the other side of the fence--unemployed again, and this time overqualified and with "too much" experience and "too old," and thus cannot get a job.

Hang in there and keep trying...someday you'll be lucky enough to be like me, and feel as if history is repeating itself from the other end.

Depressing, ain't it??

[Luciferous]

105. I've had similar experiences

I'm 28 but I've been a stay at home mom since I was 19. I graduated with a Bachelors in criminal justice last April and still haven't found a job. I've had maybe 12 interviews in the past year, but the job always goes to someone with experience. I also had an interviewer ask me about internships, but I have a toddler and we live on a single income. I don't exactly have the time or money to do an unpaid internship.

There is also a LOT of competition for the jobs that are available. I applied for an entry level federal position with the IRS where they had 500 positions open across the country. There were over 12,000 qualified applicants! And a lot of them were extremely overqualified for the positions... some of the people who got hired had PHDs, others were lawyers. I have a feeling that these people aren't going to stick around once the economy picks up, so they will have to do the whole hiring/training process over once all these overqualified people who took $30,000 pay cuts jump ship.

For now, I'm thinking I might go to graduate school, but I'm worried about putting myself even further into debt and then still not being able to find a job. I went to college with the mistaken impression that getting a degree would help me start a career, but the reality is that a degree is just not good enough anymore...

Anyway, sorry for the rant! I just wanted to let you know that you are definitely not alone...

[wordpix]

145. even teachers are getting cut, which means large classes will get larger

Great for education and children---give a teacher 30 kids/class instead of 25, that will really help them out. :sarcasm:

[sendero]

62. I'm sorry to hear that..

... I'm in my mid 50's and consider myself lucky to still have a programming job. Lucky for me I can perform as well as and better than most of those 30 year olds, but often you don't even get the chance.

Software dev has always been riddled with age discrimination. Lots of companies don't really interview over 40, much less 50. I think for some- they figure if you were any good, you'd have moved on to management by now. I've been in a supervisory role in about half the jobs I've had, I choose to stick to the technical work for a number of reasons.

Also, many employers actually want pure geeks, single, no relationships, nothing to do outside work. They hope to get 80 hours of work for 40s' pay.

My wife has been out of work for over a year now, as has my ex wife. My wife does the things necessary to comply with the unemployment regulations, but we both know it will take a lucky miracle for her to find a job in this environment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. I have a lot of friends in your situation

Some hung on till they were able to collect Social Security and are now surviving with a combination of part-time jobs and low-income senior housing.

One friend used up her savings, her 401k, and sold her house and some family heirlooms during her five years of unemployment before Social Security.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm self-employed, and business is down.

[kevinbgoode]

69. Here are a few links that might be of some interest

and don't be discouraged if they run into a dead-end for you - treat this as a journey and an adventure in which you are going to make yourself an expert on the employment situation for people like you. And every lead always has the potential of unfolding into another lead - information is power.

http://www.seniors4hire.org/

http://seniorjobbank.org/ --- there is another link on this site for mature workers.

http://www.aarp.org/money/work/best_employers/best_employers_list_2009/

Several states have established groups or initiatives specifically geared toward employing the older worker. New York, California, Washington...even Arkansas has an initiative going on. It shouldn't matter if you are a professional or not - one of the more difficult things when you are without income for a prolonged period of time is that it becomes impossible to maintain paying dues for professional memberships in "networking" organizations - and it is perfectly good to assert that you have special needs right now. One of the most crippling things in this situation is the feeling of suddenly being a "failure" simply because you don't have a job - and that is not the case at all. Your situation has changed. . .yes. . .but pushing yourself to make this work for you is the goal right now, with the ultimate goal finding a good job based as closely as possible on your skills and experience.

[The River]

70. Even Worse for Over 60

2009 was a disaster for me. My job disappeared in May. My "industry"
is comatose for the next 2 or 3 years minimum. UI ends in a few months.

I'm preparing by developing recipes for Kibble Stew, Raman w/ Roadkill,
Algae Soup and getting my old van fixed up. As soon as spring arrives
I can go camp out by the river (hence my name) till SS starts in late 2012.
I can guide fishing trips on weekends for gas and grocery money.
I was going to do that after retirement anyhow so its a lose-win situation.

I hope something breaks for you soon.
Not everyone can live like Huck Finn.

[kayakjohnny]

75. God damn, but you're one articulate writer.

I wish the best for you.

But look into writing too.

I really felt this post.

And btw, I'm 52.

It was NOT a boring post.

Oh, and you're real alright.

[butterfly77]

77. You got that right.,...

I know many who have been looking and working on and off since 2003 and if they are late 40's or early 50's they are singing the same song.

The media wants to report about it now because many who have never been out of work are now looking and seeing what everyone else has been talking about for years now. Maybe they are worried for themselves or they now have to help out family members..

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

79. Lerkfish, you will have to create your own job

Look up all your local restaurants, stores, boutiques, etc. and find out which ones don't have websites of their own. Design prototypes for them and then show them to them and show how much they are missing by not having a web presence.

Offer your services at a reasonable price on craigslist.

Lots of artists would love to have their own sites to show and sell their art, but are not web saavy. Believe me, lots of them are older retired types. Go to art festivals and pass out your card about how you can consult and set up their websites for them.

Older musicians - same thing. They spent all their time on their music and didn't learn the web and marketing stuff.

There really are huge untapped markets out there - you just have to reach out to them.

Now, go gettem tiger!

[tonysam]

83. Oh, sure. If nobody is buying, self-employment is an exercise

in futility.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

86. advertising on Craigslist is free and LOTS of people need web designers

If Lerkfish makes his fees reasonable, I don't see any reason why he couldn't develop his own business.

I also mentioned a way that he could develop his business by figuring out in advance who needs his services.

Why discourage one of the only options out there now?

Just recently I had a fence put up by someone I found on Craigslist. He was someone who newly went into business - I liked his post and I liked his website. How do you think business is generated nowadays?

We're all on our own, especially after the age of fifty.

[cbdo2007]

89. I'm with you - there are endless possibilities out there for this guy....

but whenever self-employment is mentioned there is a bunch of people who'll come out of the woodwork here at DU and use their OWN fear of trying something new as someone else's excuse to just sit and complain rather than to be out there creating something and moving forward with their skills and ideas.

I am in the web design business myself and I know MANY people who have done exactly what you describe and are doing just fine for themselves. Sure it takes a lot of time and work to get going but the rewards are so much greater when you've worked hard to get there. I know guys who are 50+ who've created their own websites that compete with some of the biggest websites out there and they do it all from their own basement.

I'll never just stand by when someone says they might just give up...because every single item and business and resource out there was created by people who didn't give up and there are a million different directions the world is going to go in from here.

[tonysam]

162. If nobody has money to buy anything, self-employment is idiocy

You ALWAYS hear this crap from Republicans that you can always start your own business. Well, sure, anybody can, but the problem is getting anyone to buy your services and be able to survive on it.

A lot of us CAN'T do it; we don't have spouses supporting us.

[cbdo2007]

168. There are businesses operating and starting up around all of us

every single day. While it is true that many people have less than they use to have, the statement/idea that "nobody has money to buy anything" is just ridiculous, especially for internet businesses out there. There are businesses in my community that have opened in the past 6 months that are thriving. Obviously someone is buying a whole lot of somethings from these people.

I work in a small business myself of just 3 people and we're doing just fine. We had a slight dip last year but are showing big rebounds already this year.

Geez, just ask the DU mods/owners/people how business is these days. All they did was create a forum for people to get on and discuss/complain about stuff and I'm quite sure they're doing just fine. Then again...maybe all of their spouses are supporting them while they sit around playing on the computer all day.....hmmmm :)

[diane in sf]

112. If potential clients don't have money you can always swap goods and services,

I've traded body work for hair cutting and traded graphic design and training for sewing, body work, cleaning and more.

[tonysam]

163. Swapping doesn't pay the bills

A lot of us don't have houses we can sell or working spouses or relatives to sponge off of.

[diane in sf]

224. I've been a renter all my adult life, self-supporting and single, you will need some services

and you may be able to trade for them. My grandfather was a doctor during the depression, people used to give him food when they had no money to pay.

[renate]

113. excellent advice

These days, if a business doesn't have a website, people just move on to the next business that does. It's unfortunate (except for people like Lerkfish!) but true, at least for younger consumers.

[treestar]

139. Also go to lawyers and propose improvements

Also a very unweb savvy lot.

[road2000]

80. Everyone over 50 who's lost a job has my sympathies.

I was part of a ten percent layoff ("involuntary separation") at the end of October. I just turned 60. With 40 years in advertising and marketing management, journalism, PR, etc., numerous national creative awards and measurable successes for the company, a spotless history and top officers eager to provide references, I have submitted dozens of resumes in my area (Cincinnati), and have not had one interview. Most don't even bother to send an FO e-mail.

This was not the case eight years ago when I got this job, and I am convinced age has everything to do with it. I have encountered on-line applications that illegally ask for date of birth; others more sneakily ask for graduation dates or other material that will reveal the applicant's age.

As a single mother with a mortgage and a 25-year-old in grad school, I can't afford to give up. (Thank God my son has a scholarship.) Severance will run out soon, and within a few months, the company will not be forced to pay 65 percent of my COBRA. I have several serious health issues (none prohibiting the ability to work), and they are costly. While I'm banking the unemployment against the future, it will not suffice for long. A majority of the 125 people laid off seem to have been older people in middle management, like me, but the company will not release a list of names. A very few under 30 appear to have been laid off as window dressing.

This is where I find myself after a lifetime of solid work in which I took pride. I am highly qualified for the jobs I apply for, in some cases a perfect match, but have not received so much as a phone call. It's odd, too, since most of my professional successes have come in these last eight years.

So, yes, I think it's age. Good luck to you, Lerkfish, and to all the greyheads in our position. It sucks.

[cbdo2007]

81. Find a big website out there that sucks and create a new competitor to them.

I know many people who have created their own startup websites and do well with them. Sure you won't make any money the first year or so but it doesn't sound like you'll be making any money during that time anyway. So just start programming all day on something and you'll have a good competing website in no time.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

84. Someday that thirty year old will be in your shoes,

maybe sooner if the economy doesn't improve. He's a total jerk, just shake him off.

Here's wishing you the very best. You sound like a very talented person. Remember the cream ALWAYS rises to the top. :yourock:

[Yavin4]

90. Lerkfish, Here's My Advice To You

First, know that there are some real assholes out there, and just because the assholes are hiring, that doesn't make them any less of an asshole. The guy you interviewed with is a jerk, and he won't be in the IT industry for long. He'll move on to some field in 3 years.

Second, what you need to do is make and build relationships with people in your field. You should volunteer. Teach. Work with the elderly helping them to navigate the web. Work with religious organizations. IOW, use your talents and skills to build RELATIONSHIPS with people who will need them.

The more RELATIONSHIPS that you build, the more opportunities you will create for yourself.

[chemenger]

91. Have you tried posting on the LinkedIn site?

Not your typical job posting site.

[IDemo]

93. If it's any encouragement

At the age of 51, I was laid off from a major hi-tech company last January after working there for several years (electronics tech). I was beginning to think the call centers (there are a ton of them around here) or Target were going to be my only choices when out of the blue I was hired by another tech company. Same type of work, better benefits. I was lucky to get a great reference from a former boss of mine. I just heard from a fellow tech who was laid off at the same time and has tried everything from computer repair to gold panning to stay afloat. I'm hopeful he will be picked up in our group as well since they are going to be hiring someone to help me with the workload.

A third tech who was also laid off at the same time has found a better paying job with a medical equipment outfit, and he is 60.

Best of luck to you, Lerkfish!

[Goldstein1984]

96. Not Boring: It's the story of present day America

My son was a machinist, and a good one. He was laid off during the downturn. His job is now in China, and he's taken a lower paying and less challenging job just because it was all he could find. It took him a year to find that work. I a couple more months he's joining the Army for the opportunities and benefits it offers.

We're told the official unemployment rate is 10%, and the "actual" unemployment rate is probably 17%. I believe that we are being lied to.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. It is also because you are a man.

80% of the jobs lost since 2007 were held by men.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103979497

You're no more relevant in the real world than you are at DU.

If you expect to work, look for jobs that involve cold, rain, danger or literal actual shit. Then at least you'll only be competing with other men.

[XemaSab]

104. I'd LOVE to have a job that involves cold, rain, danger or literal actual shit.

I miss my old job as a biologist every day, and I am a woman.

Pisser is that a lot of THOSE jobs aren't hiring either. :(

(And yes, I have slipped and fallen in a large, messy cow pie at 9 AM, and had to work all day covered in shit. Good times.)

[GoCubsGo]

128. Tell me about it...

Actually, there are lots of Fed jobs for biologists being advertised at the moment. Unfortunately, they are all temporary, entry-level positions.

[LiberalEsto]

133. A lot of women with part time jobs aren't counted

The stats don't show the real extent of the unemployment problem. In my case, I'm female and worked on a part time, per diem basis. My hours shrank and then disappeared, although I still technically have a job. I just haven't earned anything from them in 15 months.

A lot of women work in child care and don't earn enough to live on. These jobs are getting harder to find, because when parents lose their own jobs, or their income gets smaller, they pull the kids out of day care and private schools.

Others who used to make a living as supermarket clerks have had their hours drastically cut back to a) get the company out of having to pay benefits and b)get rid of older workers who might earn a bit more. So women - as well as men - are losing lots of work hours, even though they may still officially have a job.

[Born_A_Truman]

100. With your background and talent...

could you possibly teach at a community college or tech school?

[Luciferous]

106. I'm sorry you've had such a hard time

but it sounds like that guy would have been a total ass to work for, so maybe you lucked out at that one!

Best of luck to you with your job search!

[Triana]

107. You wouldn't wanna work for that punk anyway

ageist twat.

Pfft.

[windbreeze]

108. As he casts his bread upon the water....it shall return sevenfold....

I know that doesn't help you...and I'm truly sorry you are in such a position....I can only wish you luck...with your talent, there has to be something, and you would not have liked working with that snot...Take care...try not to get too disheartened...wb

[flyarm]

109. I am so saddened to hear of you going through this Lerkfish..but never give up!!

i will keep you in my thoughts ...

Keep fighting..keep trying..don't ever give up..

fly

[David Zephyr]

110. What a shitty thing we put human beings through for employment.

Lerkfish, I read your OP twice. The entire job search process is so dehumanizing, but you are a very bright bulb and even in the midst of all this shit, you have a lot that employers want.

The biggest strike against job candidates is that they are not working somewhere else. Employers, for whatever reason, tend to employ people that are already working.

I have friends (I'm in your age group) who finally took very low paying jobs, but kept on looking. Once they were employed, guess what? They were able to find work at better pay and more along the lines of what they wanted because when they interviewed, they were already working.

I posted here the other day that it is worker between 50 and 65 who are at the greatest jeopardy now.

Always remember this: you are not you job. What we do for a buck does not define who we are. You are who many of us already know you to be and like, by the way.

Don't give up on yourself just because the system is shit. You are worth it. I know. :)

[scubadude]

140. I'm in roughly the same boat as Lerkfish,

but I have found that most of the jobs that are lower paying aren't hiring folks like us because they think we will bolt once things improve.

It's my experience that for the high paying jobs that we are qualified for they are looking for young people with huge skill sets and for the low paying jobs we are considered overqualified.

In my hunt it seems like I can't win, yet every day I put in as many applications as I can to jobs I am qualified for. Somethings gotta give sooner or later...

Best of luck Lerkfish, and the same to all unemployed DU'ers,

Scuba

[JCMach1]

111. I used to get that interviewing in higher ed... People hire folks who look like them

I was always too young in their eyes.

I am a good deal older now so that has lessened.

In academia jobs are few and far between. I have done cross country drives only to find a situation much like you described.

In the end I took the jobs I could get and kept the resumes flowing. Eventually, it worked out... eventually. However, I had to become an economic expatriate to do it.

[Greyhound]

114. All too common.

So sorry.

There's a lot of us in this boat.
:fistbump:

[DesertDiamond]

116. Lerkfish, you've obviously got a lot to offer. Thought of going into business for yourself?

[democrank]

117. My heart goes out to you, Lerkfish.

You`re right. The unemployment figures are much larger than we`re being told.

[Ghost in the Machine]

118. Freelance Creative/Graphic Designer for Web Agency (East Tennessee Area)

Freelance Creative/Graphic Designer for Web Agency (East Tennessee Area)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009-12-14, 9:34PM EST
Reply to: [e-mail]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A new web design/internet marketing agency in East Tennessee is looking for a graphic designer for part-time/on-call work.

We are looking to officially launch in February, but want to prescreen all candidates prior to start-up. This will be an on-call basis with only part-time work. (Full-time positions may be available in the future and any long term associates will get first consideration.)

We are looking for someone to produce the graphics for websites, newsletter templates, logos, and marketing material. Everything you produce will be on the web at one point or another, so you must be well versed in the guidelines for image size/format for faster uploading. Flash design/programming and user-interface experience would be a definite plus.

These jobs would be on a contract basis so you must have your own hardware and software. Adobe users will get preference due to the ease of integration into our process. Show us that your the best and we will make it work regardless of the tools you have at your disposal.

If you are interested, please send a resume along with a link to your online portfolio. If you are not online, please do not reply. We are a tech-centric company and will consider only the savviest creatives.

Put "CPC Designer" in the subject line of your email to be considered. Professionals attitudes only please.

http://knoxville.craigslist.org/crg/1510537591.html

You could check craigslist in your area of Ohio, too..

http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/us/oh

Good luck to you

Ghost

[coyote]

119. This is downright depressing....

I am in the IT industry and am turning 40 in about 3 weeks time. I thank my lucky stars every day that I have a job...even though I am literally earning the same salary as I was back in 1999.

I got extremely specialized in the software I learned. However, it appears to not have helped me because all because the jobs have dried up in the EU and USA. However, if you go to the job boards in India....you think we were in the middle of the 2000 IT boom. That´s where all my "specialized" software work has gone.

There have been some very good advice given already so I cannot add much. If you are willing to compete with the world for some graphic design jobs....there are sites like rentacoder.com that has plenty of graphic design listing. You probably will not earn much, but it might keep you busy and sane...while keeping your skills up.

I am sorry for your situation.

[border_town]

120. I hear you!

I am going thru the same thing in regards to not getting
interviews.  I was laid off in Nov and started to send out and
apply for jobs right away.  I have yet to be called for an
interview.   I had 11 years in my field and have applied for
jobs I clearly qualify for.  What are these employers looking
for?  It is very frustrating and plays on your self esteem. 

[geckosfeet]

121. I had several extremely rude interviews. The interviewer is simply extremely dismissive

and intolerant, unable to make an effort to conduct an interview in a civil manner. Typically this type of interviewer has more ego than sense and has been reared on eye candy and immediate gratification. Believe me, you are better off not having to work in that environment.

Keep at it. I had about 30 interviews before I finally landed something (then got two offers withing a week). Contract to start with but later going full time. Not glamorous work but I really like it, it is stable and workplace is fun. Yes most people are younger than me but they are fun and seem to "accept me". On the other hand, I try to be sensitive and understanding and not call attention to the fact that I am 15 - 20 years older than some of these folks. Some of them are genuinely spooked by it and you do all us "older workers" a favor by letting them know there is nothing to be afraid of.

It's hard to hear, but keep plugging, keep your head up and make sure you understand what it is that you have to offer. Bring yourself to an interview - let it all hang out (well - almost all of it). The interviewer knows his or her specific work environment up and down but any reasonable interviewer will not expect you to know anything about it beyond common industry practices.

Good luck!

[katkat]

164. rude

gecko, yes, that adds to it. I have been treated extremely rudely by young interviewers(not by older ones, I guess they know about HR), although I have always behaved in a professional manner. I've been told "You're too old" or "I don't know why you even bothered to apply for this job" (my resume is excellent and my experience was pertinent) or "You wouldn't fit in here."

[Paper Roses]

122. I don't know if reading this makes me feel better or worse.

I have great sympathy for your situation. I know others in my area whose situation is similar.
I have been out of work for a year. The great company I worked for upped and moved to Alabama. Everything is less expensive for them there. All of us were laid off, one at a time.

I have collected unemployment for a year and it will completely run out soon. I'm in trouble and I know it.

Considering I'm in my late 60's, my possibilities are so narrow that it is frightening.
I also have to consider my skill level. We old timers have had to play catch-up with modern technology. Graduating from college in 1964 has no relevance to today's job market. Add to that a slight problem with back and feet, I have to eliminate jobs that keep me on my feet all day.
(see Morton's Neuroma) The back problem is aggravated if I stay on a hard desk chair, I need to be able to be doing a lot of things that require up and down just to keep this body out of pain.

As you know, the job site listings are now so slim that, unless you are in the Medical field, everything looks the same. I recognize the text of so many of the listings. Week after week. Same companies. Looking for ..., now hiring..., ya-da,ya-da, ya-da. Same companies, same wording. Telemarketing. Nope!

I have to keep looking. Have had no interviews in a while. No-one even answers my replies to ads. To make it worse and you all know this, it is very uncomfortable to write a cover letter to a company about which you know nothing. "Please reply with cover letter and resume to.... What the heck are we supposed to say? How do we really know if we are interested.

Or, for most of us old timers, there are those little paragraphs that state: Must be familiar with Microsoft Office, Photoshop, Excel, ad infinitum. In many cases, second language helpful.

I don't expect much any more. It is discouraging. I envy your skills. To those of us with far fewer skills or far greater years, frightening.

You seem to have great spirit. Keep up the search.

[katkat]

165. Paper Roses

You can learn Office, Photoshop, Excel. If you have them on your computer, practice and use the help files. Or your local adult ed or senior center is likely to have low cost classes.

As to the company info, google them, read about them, then write a customized cover letter that points out how your skills match what they're looking for.

You can do this. I know it.

[rosesaylavee]

123. I am there too...

I am in the same position of sorts but unfortunately don't have a specific skill like programming. I am just a mid-level manager type and apparently a dime a dozen. Same age and have taken a job that is the most task oriented and non-thinking I have had since high school summer work. My supervisor is maybe mid 20s and not a 'people' person. I am one of the first people he has ever had to manage and after he got over his obvious anger and disgust at having to manage anyone and realized I wasn't his 'mom', we get along fine. But as someone said up thread, the office atmosphere is pretty much college dorm like and am grateful I can do my work in my home office. AND crazily I am grateful to have found this despite that it pays less than half of what I was getting at my last job as it is so bad in this job market too.

Is there something you can do free lance? Have you looked at Craigslist? I have had some luck with that to bump up my salary take home... there is a programming section there that may interest you. And if it can done virtually, you have access to programming needs in more than one market.

So sorry you are going thru this. You are a brilliant person and I always enjoy your posts here - please keep trying.

[NikolaC]

125. I'm So Sorry That You Are Going Through That

Your post was not boring, I believe that it definitely struck a chord with many here. It sucks that idiots, like the one who interviewed you, can get away with such blatantly discriminatory behavior because they know that they can. Maybe you were better off not having to work for that jackass.

I had a similar type of interview about 8 months ago for an A/P position at a small consulting firm in Arlington. I have had several years of experience doing full cycle Accounts Payable (A/P) and JEs. I could not believe my luck in landing an interview since I had been sending out my resume for a year and had only seen a handful of recruiters at temp agencies. Well, I was 38 at the time, I am also black and overweight. The only people I saw working there were young and white. It did not matter to me at the time though because I went into the interview with confidence and smiling. The interviewer gave me the once over, asked me about my take on Office 2007, especially Excel, and told me that he hated it when I said that it was okay and I was getting familiar with the changes. He asked me very little about my experience, but did ask a lot of accounting questions that had nothing to do with A/P. I was so nervous and discouraged by his demeanor and attitude that I answered some questions that I knew the answers to incorrectly and that was that. I had become a nervous wreck, my confidence was out the window at that point since the interview had deteriorated so quickly and the guy was such a jerk. I kicked myself for a week after that interview.

After that debacle, I was able to land two low paying A/P assignments through a temp agency back to back filling in for people on maternity leave and got really good reviews from the controllers of both Accounting departments. However, when my son was having a hard time towards the end of the summer, I had to turn down an assignment. My husband's employer told him that he was getting a sizable bonus at the end of July so I thought that it would be okay to turn down the one assignment and be there for my son. Well, it is now the new year and the bonus never materialized (but that is another story). I have since called them back to let them know that I am available to work again but I have heard nothing back from them. My last interview with a recruiter about a month ago went great on the phone, but he was less than enthused when he met me. He didn't even have me do their testing. He did call a few weeks later about a three day job stocking shelves overnight at a retail store, but I could not take the assignment because of the location, the fact that we only have one car right now and I would be getting home after my husband needed to get to work. I have not heard from him since.

All along I have been sending out my resume with no luck and, last week, I was so discouraged that I decided to give up as well. I feel like I am unemployable and have several things going against me in this job market. I don't have a college degree (only a certificate for Bookkeeping and Canadian Payroll), was a stay-at-home mom for three years (from 2005-2008), am pushing 40 and overweight (which is a negative with some companies). I feel that my only chance now is to go back to school and hope that getting a degree in Accounting will help. In the meantime, I will try to get a job in retail or fast food. I have all but given up on finding a job doing A/P or bookkeeping since there is so much competition now from people who have degrees.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do. I really hope that things get better for you.

[dugaresa]

126. Do not get discouraged! I had an interview just like that when I was 22 years old

the interviewer was rude, dismissive and I remember leaving the room thinking that it was the equivalent of having someone beat me with a 2x4 for 30 minutes. They only wanted candidates straight out of college but according to everyone I knew that interviewed with them, they were cruel about our lack of experience.

Turns out this particular employer used this method of "interviewing" all the time to "winnow out the best", well to my great joy they were driven out of business eventually. I can tell you it probably had something to do with their hiring only jerks.

[cap]

127. Guys, It's time to start registering your complaints with the EEOC

and maybe, if we think they care, the AARP. Regardless of whether these complaints are legally actionable, they can start to document a pattern that overtime will form the basis for new legislation and rules.

Even if the complaint doesn't fall within the exact rules of discrimination or time filing requirements, etc. it is important to take that first step so that this situation is on the record with a paper trail. Even if you have some "round heels" and were not the perfect person.

Right now, we have a tiger in the DOL who will back us if she can. She needs evidence and she needs a bit of a push.

Right now, many corporations are running scared of hiring H1Bs. That's why they are sending work out of the country to their overseas subsidiary. They know what's coming.

Rosa Parks was not the first African American to refuse to sit at the back of the bus. After many documented efforts by African Americans to claim their proper place, she was the right person at the right time and the right place for a movement to begin.

When EFCA comes up for consideration, I hope every man Jack here is ringing up their congress critter.

[grace0418]

129. I'm so sorry lerkfish. I was laid off last December too. Had I looked for a full-time

job, I wouldn't have found any either. Are there any big placement agencies where you live (aquent, Creative Circle, etc)? The reason I ask is because I immediately signed up for about 7 different agencies in Chicago and I see freelance opportunities constantly, but almost without fail they are for web design. I am a real dinosaur, I'm a print designer, so I can't go after any of them. And literally the only full-time jobs I've seen have been for web design or motion graphics.

Luckily I've found plenty of work on my own and through friends who've introduced me to clients. I haven't actually gotten any work from an agency, but I'm sure I would've by now if I knew web design. The good part is that you apply for agency work mostly online once you've had your initial meeting with your rep. The client rarely sees you until your rep has presented you to them and they've already had a chance to assess your portfolio. I'm almost forty, and while I probably look fairly arty, I have lots of gray hair and I'm definitely not keeping up with the latest hip trends. So yeah, I feel your pain when I go to interviews. But it's very different when I know they've had a chance to really see my work before they see me. Plus I think people expect a person my age to be leading my own company. I don't really let on that I am a company of one (who has a network of other freelancer friends to help out when needed) unless absolutely necessary. Somehow that's more acceptable to them.

I know freelance doesn't work for a lot of people especially if they need benefits, but so far it's working well for me. And I've gotten to the point with two of my clients where they've offered me full-time work if I want it. For one, I'd have to move to LA, not something I can do right now. And for the other I'd have to work insanely long hours in a dark, depressing office. I like working freelance for them out of my house, however the daily reality of that job would kill me pretty fast I think. But freelance could be the key for you if you can handle it. Some freelance income is better than no income, and can definitely lead to a job offer once you dazzle them, which I'm sure you would.

Anyway, you've probably already tried these avenues but I thought I'd mention it anyway. PM me your info if you'd like me to send job leads your way, I actually don't know a lot of web designers and I'd love to see your work. You don't have to live in the same city as your client any more. My biggest client is in LA, and we do everything over email, phone and online.

Lastly, :hug:

[LiberalEsto]

130. I'm a 57-year-old female ex-journalist

and don't qualify for unemployment either. My part time per diem hours at the PR company kept gradually shrinking away until there was nothing. Technically I'm still employed by them; they just haven't had any work for me in 15 months. If my husband didn't have a decent job (knock on wood), I'd be screwed.

With 31,000 reporters and editors losing their jobs last year in the U.S., I can't find freelance work either, because writers with up-to-date computer skills and fresh contacts are getting all the assignments.

I wonder if I'll ever find another job. Ironically, my 26-year-old daughter has started bitching that we baby boomers are hogging all the good jobs, instead of stepping aside so her generation can find work.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, Lerk. That interview really sucked.

Is there any chance you can relocate? We live outside Washington DC and there seem to be more IT jobs here than elsewhere in the U.S.

[wordpix]

144. I'm a writer in DC area, too, and pay, if you get a job, is almost nothing BUT I.T. is good biz here

[1776Forever]

131. Don't know if this is something you might like to check out but here is a link.........

http://www.freelancedesigners.com/dir/flash/OH_columbus.html

[Lerkfish]

134. thanks, I've bookmarked it

[leveymg]

141. I'm also 50-something, was in your position last year. Got hired as a freelancer. Hang in there.

I know what you're going through. I also have had those awkward interviews. But, a part-time freelance gig has worked out really well.

As my wife said at our low-point, "This too, will pass." She was right. Don't give up and work like hell on whatever you can get. It will work out. :hi: :thumbsup: :fistbump:

[snooper2]

135. 12/07 Web / User Interface Designer

http://jobsearch.monster.com/Search.aspx?brd=1&q=web%20designer&cy=us&where=Columbus%2C%20OH&rad=20&rad_units=miles&qlt=1299611&qln=970012&lid=561&re=130

Columbus Ohio
12/07 Web / User Interface Designer
Revolutions, Inc. develops and manages successful and rapidly growing retail internet companies. Our flagship website, SpinLife.com, is the largest internet retailer of Home Medical Equipment. Revolutions owns and operates ten ecommerce websites with plans to launch additional sites in 2010. Our company is dynamic, flexible and offers a great opportunity for learning and growth. Our latest opportu
RetailInternet ServicesHealthcare Services Revolutions, Inc... Columbus, OH, 43... 0-2 map salary action

12/23 Web Designer
The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company (NYSE: SMG) is the world's largest marketer of branded consumer lawn and garden
products, with a full range of products for professional horticulture as well. Scotts Miracle-Gro has helped to grow the nearly $7 billion global consumer lawn and garden market through product innovation, industry-leading advertising efforts and its trusted brands. Scotts is an EEO Emplo
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12/18 Visual Web Designer / User Interfa...
**Only W2 Candidates** ** Client : Insurance Client Profile : Visual Web Designer / User Interface Location: Columbus OH Duration : 3-6 months Requires - Requires 3-8 years experience Expert skills with visual design tools (Adobe CS) Solid knowledge of HTML and CSS, ability to produce prototypes Bachelors Degree or equivalent combination of training and experience in visual design, visual communic
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12/14 Web Designer - E-commerce
Express is sexy, original style in a fun, high-energy environment. Express is young and independent, but with a three decade history of success. And with more than 20,000 associates, more than 580 stores, and more than $1.8 billion in annual sales, Express is one of the ten largest specialty brands in the country. And we're growing bigger and better every season. Scope The Ecommerce Graphic Design
Retail Express Columbus/Zanesvi... 5-10 map action

01/08 User Interface Designer, HTML, Visu...
Skills : User Interface Designer, HTML, Visual Web Design, Sitemaps, Wireframes Complete Description: Must have User Interface Designing Experience The User Interface Designer will work closely with visual designers, user researchers, business leads and application developers to design and develop user experience documentation including sitemaps, wireframes, task flows, interaction designs, use ca
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01/06 Graphic Designer
Based in Columbus, Ohio our innovative team of creative consultants, specialize in services that include the development and implementation of advertising, engagement marketing efforts, company collateral and promotional materials, special event production, as well as assistance with brand management, imaging and public/media relations activities. Offering full-service advertising, marketing and c
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12/28 Sr. Level User Experience (UX) Desi...
Dedicated Technologies, Inc. (DTI) is an award-winning regional IT consulting firm based in Columbus, Ohio. We are growing, and we are seeking outstanding people to grow with us! We now have an opening for Sr. Level User Experience (UX) Designer and at this time, we cannot work with any subcontractors or subcontracting firms. Why work for DTI? Because our business model allows us to hire the best p
Computer/IT Services Dedicated Techno... Columbus, OH, 43... 0-2 map action

11/24 Technical Designer
Express is sexy, original style in a fun, high-energy environment. Express is young and independent, but with a three decade history of success. And with more than 20,000 associates, more than 580 stores, and more than $1.8 billion in annual sales, Express is one of the ten largest specialty brands in the country. And we're growing bigger and better every season. Role Statement: The Technical Desi
Retail Express Columbus, OH, 43... 0-2 map action

01/09 Graphic Designer
Columbus-based design agency has an immediate need for graphic designer. Strong design eye and concepting skills required. Must be proficient in AdobeCS3. Experience in print and web preferred. Agency experience required. Freelance opportunity. All applicants applying for U.S. job openings must be authorized to work in the United States. All applicants applying for Canadian job openings must be au
Computer Software The Creative Gro... COLUMBUS, OH, 43... 2-5 map salary action

01/08 User Interface Designer Developer
TEKsystems in Columbus,Ohio is looking for a member of an User Experience team with a large Columbus based company. The User Interface Designer will work closely with visual designers, user researchers, business leads and application developers to design and develop user experience documentation including sitemaps, wireframes, task flows, interaction designs, use cases, flow charts and navigation m
Computer Software TEKsystems Columbus, OH, 43... 2-5 map action

01/10 User Experience Designer
User Experience Designer - Columbus, OH. Execute & manage different levels of User Centered Design (UCD) engagements, processes & resources for web & multimedia projects; specifically, front-end design, prototype dvlpmt, expert usability (heuristic) reviews, web analytics, contextual interviews & usability testing facilitation/analysis. Bachelor's or equiv in Graphic Design, Human Factors, Tech/Vi
Banking JP Morgan Chae Columbus, 43220 5-10 map action

12/31 Instructional Designer & Curriculum...
The Curriculum Developer will identify and develop customized content for a wide range of Pacer teams by working directly with Business Process Owners and their teams. In this role, you will work directly with internal teams to understand the requirements and create documentation detailing program functions, business processes, data collection and output requirements. The process of developing mat
Travel, Transportation and Tourism Pacer Internatio... Dublin, OH, 4301... 10-20 map action



Cincinati
http://jobsearch.monster.com/Search.aspx?brd=1&q=web%20designer&cy=us&where=Cleveland%2C%20OH&rad=20&rad_units=miles&qlt=1314995&qln=983045&lid=560&re=130#brd=1&q=web%20designer&cy=us&where=Cincinnati%2C%20OH&rad=20&rad_units=miles&qlt=1291620&qln=955431&lid=559&re=95&pg=1&dv=1

01/04 LAMP Web Designer/Developer
Web Designer/Programmer Dimension & Scope: The Web Designer/Programmer will design and develop web pages using graphics software applications, techniques and tools. This will include working with customers to analyze business needs and translate them visually through web design (look and feel); working closely with team on system performance optimization; providing programming expertise to develop
Computer/IT ServicesComputer HardwareComputer Software Partner Technolo... Cincinnati, OH, ... 2-5 map action

01/06 Senior Designer
Our Cincinnati-based client is seeking two senior designers responsible for managing jobs and leading internal and external client meetings. The Senior Designer represents the design function to present and defend the work and address changes requested by clients. The Senior Designer fully understands the function of each cycle of business, such as sales, proposal development, concept development,
Computer/IT Services Kforce Professio... Cincinnati, OH 0-2 map action

12/18 Graphic Designer - Business to Busi...
Energetic full-service advertising agency, with an excellent reputation for creative and client service, has an exciting opportunity for a graphic designer. The ideal candidate will be passionate, self-motivated, and have the ability to think strategically and work productively to produce print and web-ready electronic layouts by completing design and mechanical requirements using computer softwar
Advertising and PR Services Stimulus Cincinnati, OH, ... 2-5 map salary action

12/17 Creative New Media Specialist - Gra...
job ID: 6479 Position Title: Creative New Media Specialist - Graphic Designer Working Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Employment Status: Full-Time Regular Required Experience: 5 years Required Education: Bachelors Degree Required Travel: 0 Job Summary: Reporting to the Director, Global Corporate Communications, the Creative/Web Specialist provides creative design support for external and internal commu Kendle Internati... Cincinnati, OH, ... 2-5 map action

01/06 Instructional Designer
Kforce Consulting is seeking an Instructional Designer for a contract position in Cincinnati, OH. This position is responsible for the development and implementation of eLearning training courses and curricula for customers and employees. It will include the creation of on-line learning modules for customers and employees, creation of training materials for use by customers, both internal and exte
Computer/IT Services Kforce Professio... Mason, OH 10-20 map action

12/22 Graphics Designer
Ancra International LLC, a leading supplier of Cargo Management products for the Heavy Duty/Fleet Trucking industry is looking for an experienced, full-time, Graphics Designer to work in our Erlanger, KY office. The position entails working with our Heavy Duty Cargo, Motorsports, International and Consumer Products divisions to develop collateral sales materials and support the graphic requirement
Manufacturing - Other Ancra Internatio... Erlanger, KY 10-20 map action

12/02 User Interface Designer III
The companies of American Modern Insurance Group are nationally recognized leaders in specialty insurance, and currently serve more than 1.3 million policyholders throughout the country. Based in Cincinnati, Ohio, American Modern Insurance Group is rated A+ (Superior) by the A.M. Best Company, an independent analyst of the insurance industry. The company is licensed in all 50 states, and offers in
Insurance The Midland Comp... Amelia, OH, 4510... 10-20 map action

01/06 Application Designer I
The companies of American Modern Insurance Group are nationally recognized leaders in specialty insurance, and currently serve more than 1.3 million policyholders throughout the country. Based in Cincinnati, Ohio, American Modern's parent, American Modern is rated A+ (Superior) by the A.M. Best Company, an independent analyst of the insurance industry. The company is licensed in all 50 states, and
Insurance The Midland Comp... Cincinnati, OH, ... 10-20 map action

12/10 SR.ERP ANALYST/PeopleSoft Financial...
Project Management Support the design, development, and implementation of new and enhanced application requests. Identify the appropriate resources needed to complete small, medium and medium-large projects. Communicate between internal and external parties on project related issues and developments. Participate in developing and managing project plans. Ability to determine the scope and complexit
Healthcare Services Cincinnati Child... Cincinnati, OH, ... 0-2 map salary action

12/11 .net Developer
Atos Origin is a global information technology services company. Our business is turning client vision into results through the application of consulting, systems integration and managed operations. Atos Origin is one of the few companies in the world that can provide all the 'design, build, and operate' elements of a business solution. The company’s annual revenues are in of excess $7.3 billion a
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Akron
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01/04 Freelance Graphic Designer
Freelance Graphic Designer Job Description Location: Akron, Ohio Lunar Cow is a nationally focused design firm that solves business problems creatively and strengthens brand communication for our clients over the Web, in print and through multimedia design. Our company provides consultation, design and advertising/marketing services to a broad range of clients with an emphasis in destination marke
Advertising and PR Services Lunar Cow Design Akron, OH, 44308 0-2 map salary action

12/18 Graphic Designer
Job Purpose: Assistant in various graphic areas, with responsibilities in areas of catalog design and production, product design, and various advertising mediums Duties: * Catalog design, layout, and production * Ad layout in various formats * New product design, artwork and concept development * Maintains quality service by following organization standards. * Maintains technical knowledge by atte
Manufacturing - Other P. Graham Dunn Dalton, OH, 4461... 20+ map action

[Lerkfish]

150. thanks, believe it or not I've already applied for most of those jobs.

I am on careerbuilder and monster daily. in the last couple of months I've sent out resumes to 647 companies. I know because I keep records. in the last year, I've applied to over 1,400 jobs.

on an interesting note...the Scott's lawn job, btw, is perpetually open. I've applied to it 6 times in the last 9 months. Been turned down every time even though they keep posting it.

There's also a job for Ektron electronics that is always open in California. I believe that one and any jobs with Cyber Coders are datamining for spam mail, and not real positions.

I appreciate you taking the time to do the search, I really do.. but I'm already doing that, that is why this is so disheartening.

[katkat]

166. posts of non-existent jobs

Years ago I asked HR where I worked about why there was a tiny ad in the local paper for a job with that company. I mean it was something like Job opening at BigCompany, call xxx-xxxx completely devoid of information, and I was told it was to satisfy some government job regulation about a position. They had no intention of interviewing for it even if anyone had even seen it.

[femrap]

136. Hi fellow Ohioan....

Just started my week reading this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34769831/ns/business-careers//

We're on our own. Keep at it...you are not alone.

My unemployment runs out in 12 weeks. Maybe the Temp Agencies can help.

I'm going to have to come up with something very creative to generate $$.

Good luck.

[LibertyLover]

137. I understand what you are saying -

my husband is in a similar situation. He quit work 7 years ago so that he could take care of our little girl. At that point he was 47. He planned to go back to work when she started school full time, which she did 2 years ago. He started looking for a job close to the house and with hours that would mean we wouldn't have to put her in after-school care or at least not for very long. He can't find anything. He's gone on interviews and sent resumes and still nothing. The jobs he's capable of doing all want people to be available to work all shifts. Added to that, he'll be 55 in April and employers didn't want to hire him because of that. One even told him that while he couldn't tell my husband that he was too old for them, that was the reason he wouldn't be hired. He too doesn't show up in any of the statistics because he quit his job and never went on unemployment. The only good thing is that he was home with our daughter during her introduction to the US (she's adopted from China) and really helped her learn English. When he turns 55 he'll be able to go to our county's Office on Aging and see about getting help finding a job. I really hope that works out for him. Good luck to you in your hunt for a job.

[NoFederales]

142. Unemployment numbers are indeed greater than what is being

reported.... How many professionals are out there that can no longer practice their job skills? This is a taboo topic. I've spoken to numerous city, county, State, and Federal offices about this, and in particular, money for retraining in another field. If you already have a post-secondary degree, there is no money beyond the high interest private lender for you. No credits, no deductions, no low interest monies for retraining.

In Missouri, whatever monies were generated for reeducation goes to tech schools and community colleges "to set up programs" for the 'young'. Federal monies go to States who use them on secondary school teens who qualify by being at risk, knocked up, emancipated, child of military personnel, and so on. These are redundancies, programs already exist for these sorts of things--where are the creative new changes we were asked to believe in?

I cannot find work. I earned my grey whiskers and hair; my experience on the resume speaks volumes about skills and attitude; my work ethic far outstrips the mediocre displays of most of the whippersnappers I witness in various job performances. I never would have believed that someone wanting to work could be so denied....

I, too, am real, but we are in the throes of Idiocracy and you cannot beat the Stupidity with rational appeals.

Good luck to us all.

NoFederales

[wordpix]

143. Part of problem is health care

I'm over 50 with lots of accomplishments but I'm not getting interviews. I had a phone interview with one woman who sounded about 25---she gave me the bum's rush, too, and it was over in 5 min.

This is a society that doesn't value decades of years of hard work and experience that a college degree (which I also have) alone cannot buy. Part of the problem, I think, is health care. If you're over 50, employers assume your health is in decline and it will cost them more to hire you. That is not necessarily so. I keep myself in good shape and don't have any health problems. I worked with both a young woman and young man in their 20's who had lots of health problems and each missed days and days of work, causing the boss to have to hire temps. Also, young women get pregnant and stay home near the end of their pregnancies, and both men and women stay home to care for babies nowadays. This costs employers, too.

But stereotyping always works, right?

I've started my own company to get by. So far, I like being my own boss but constantly must beat the bushes for clients, and with my small income, it's hard to make ends meet.

[DisgustedInMN]

146. I know exactly where you ...

... are coming from Lerkfish. It's not just the tech industry that discriminates against us 50 somethings, it's across the board from what I'm experiencing. I'm a highly skilled Journeyman carpenter and Master cabinet maker and haven't had so much as an interview in almost 2 years. To say I'm disheartened, is putting it mildly. Hope things look up for you my friend, hell I hope they look up for all of us...

... but I'm not holding my breath.

[David Zephyr]

147. KIcking this up in solidarity with Lerkfish.

I came back to your OP this morning. Third time now.

I am angry. My dearest friend spent 7 months everyday at the unemployment offices for eight hours here in Los Angeles. Finally, he took a lower paying job just to get something. Now, he's had something better for over a year.

A girl I grew up with who now lives in Cambridge and graduated in the top 1% of her class at UCLA has been unemployed for two years now (she's 58) and her husband (59) just got layed off (he's an electronics engineer). They still have a child in 10th grade and are draining their life savings (what's left after the crash).

Reading this thread just pisses me off.

Americans need jobs, not wars!

We need to mind our own business and put our own people back to work today!

[radhika]

148. Happened to me too here is California

I was an independent consultant in Healthcare IT, working through my own 1-person corp. Project to project. Definitely over 50. At a certain point, couldn't even get meetings, and attempts to work through contract brokers got me zip. Like our writer, the attitudes of the young aggressive too-hip execs was dismissive and smug.

Starting years ago, in my field, most of the new projects were being staffed through job shops offshore who seemed to only response to resumes from youngsters. The few I spoke with on phone basically asked if I was willing to work six or seven 18 hour days a week as a project manager.Under - their words - intense pressure. I am no longer in IT -or even corporate healthcare. DUH. I have been devoting a ton of time to progressive politics, starting with the impeachment movement, on to single payer and obama's campaign (don't ask how I feel about that). For my greatly reduced income (with benefits) I teach part-time in Adult Ed. That could be leaving soon too, but that's another story.

[davidwparker]

149. I am sorry that happened to you. Is moving an option for you? n/t

[Lerkfish]

153. absolutely, for a permanent position

I cannot justify moving my family for a 3 month temp job or even a 9 month temp job, and that is all that I seem to get any responses on.

[rox63]

157. Try looking in the New England area

We weren't hit as bad by the recession as some other parts of the country. Also, perhaps try for IT jobs in non-IT industries, like health care. The race towards electronic medicalo records is heating up the need for IT professionals in health care.

[katkat]

152. been there, done that

Yeah, they don't even bother to hide the age discrimination, because what recourse do you have?

I take a slight amount of satisfaction in then having seen a couple of those companies turn out products with problems I would have caught, but it's not as satisfying as having a job.

[rox63]

155. I'm in my mid-40's, and training to get into a field other than IT

I'm nearly done retraining to go into health care, as a respiratory therapist. I have 20+ years of experience in IT, but it was getting me nowhere. So many of those jobs are going overseas, or to recent grads who make a lot less than I was making. It's never too late to reinvent yourself. I have several classmates who are in their 50's, and they are pushing ahead with retraining.

I'm sorry you've had to go through these humiliating experiences. You are in a particularly depressed area of the country (economically speaking), so I'm sure that doesn't help either. You may want to investigate opportunities where you can work remotely for a company in another part of the country. To support myself while I'm in school, I'm working part-time for a small (about 30 employees) software company. About half of their employees live in other parts of the country. I was originally hired as a temp over the summer, to replace someone who was going out on maternity leave. But they were pleased with my work, and they asked if I could stay on part-time when school started up again in the fall. So I am still there, working about 25 hours a week, while I finish my degree.

It may seem hopeless at times, but please don't give up hope. I know I've been incredibly fortunate, and I know things can turn around.

[swilton]

159. I know how you feel

I'm older than you are and I retired from the government - as a government retiree, I could have worked for a contractor. But I have had enough of the manufactured intelligence in order to get the information we want to receive.

My older son at 23 has no job and when franchises hire him, they give him less than 20 hours/work/week and only $7.50 an hour. There is nothing else to do but join the military which is what younger son did to support his new baby.

There are no local jobs and no local business - only work for big corporations or big government to support the empire or go out on the streets.

I have been seeing how food co-ops work and I was thinking about trying to start a sewing co-op.

[raccoon]

161. I'm sorry that happened to you. He sounds like a real asshole.

:hug:

[SteveM]

169. Man, that's rough. I'm 61 and retired whether I agree to it or not...

I've only scraped up some repair jobs and meal ticket trade-outs for transporting recyclables for a restaurant. I think the new de facto retirement age is 50. Employers/bosses are rather open about "getting younger people" on the payrolls; now they aren't even doing that.

I worry about holding together a thin IRA and my health, since I have no insurance. I've learned to get by on less; after monthly bills and home taxes of $5,300/yr, I manage on about $250/mo. This still drains my even-thinner savings. A lot of home cooking! Two deer in the freezer!

In about a year I'll have to decide whether or not to start drawing SS at the minimum age (and minimum benefits). Ah, ice floes: wasn't that where the Frankenstein monster ended up? Can't get no respect.

[Larkspur]

170. I'm a 48 year old IT worker and feel your pain

I was laid off in November 2008 and my duties given to an already overworked H-1B visa contractor from India. He screwed up the environment I once managed, so they hired me back on a temp basis to fix the enviornment. My contract will end next month. Sytems decided to fly in an L-1 visa employee from India to do my duties as well as what the H-1B visa contractor from India did. The contractor is voluntarily returning to India and will leave the company end of next month.

There's not much out there for us older IT workers.

Even though you are not getting unemployment compensation, you can use your state's department of labor tools to look for a job.

The other thing, contact your US Rep and senator and let them know your situation and what they can do to help you.

[tranche]

171. You mentioned working on your Web site. Do you have it up now?

I'm in the industry. Web development consultant. Rebranding myself now and looking at putting in a sales strategy at the end of the month. I can't promise anything because it's tough out there even for myself and my partner, but I'm always up for seeing people's work. By the way, I'm 34 and that kid should be ashamed of himself for that sort of behavior. It should reflect badly on his company. I was at a Christmas party and talked to 3 50+ guys in the tech sphere and they tell the same story (and they live in Silicon Valley)!

[Lerkfish]

173. I sent you a PM with the link

thanks

[Ignis]

172. Man, Lerky, that sucks.

I wish I had some brilliant advice to offer, but in this "jobless recovery," I can only offer you this:

:hug:

Hang in there.

[Lerkfish]

174. I accept hugs.

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. I Can Empathize With You

I am a small businessperson who hasn't realized anything that resembles a real profit in nearly two years. Just today my only salesman e-mailed me that he had a relapse of his depression that will probably require hospitalization.


Hang in there.


You are valuable and you are not alone.

[Ignis]

215. Now if only they were legal tender for all debts.

I'd be debt-free! :D

[RedCloud]

176. Best wishes lerkfish.

Sometimes it's a gang you hang out with for life and tough when they break it up. Where I work almost all are around my age and it's almost like young people feel they don't have the experience to work here, but I encourage them to at least apply. Hopefully others can get you back in the groove where you feel wanted.

Sometimes it best just to be the competitor of the guy that jerked you around. Most likely they treat their clients the same way.

[loveslife]

177. 55 and almost 2 years unemployed

Hi Lerkfish,

I understand the feeling completely. I just turned 55 and it's almost been 2 years unemeployed for me now. I've done 3d visualization for the AEC industry and absolutely loved my work. Jobs are far and few to apply for in that industry now as it too has gone down the tubes. I've tried too numerous variations on possible 3d positions but with my age as well as being female in this type of work and most of the work going overseas, I'm starting to feel SOL about finding something with a company. So far trying to do freelance has been pretty slim also since again most of that is going overseas. I do hope something comes up for you and your family.
Best wishes.

[Born_A_Truman]

179. Have you checked out this site?

http://www.odesk.com:80/jobs/?clear_button=1

[Eric Condon]

180. I love how so many people can't get hired because they're "too old"

and the rest of us can't get hired because we don't have any "experience."

I wish businesses would just come right out and say that the "quality" they want in employees is really just "being friends with/related to someone who works there."

[dembotoz]

183. that is the truth.....nepotism is alive and well.

[udbcrzy2]

182. Have you thought of a teaching position?

With your experience you could teach the class. You might check out the tech schools and
community colleges. It's hard to find teaching degrees with this type of experience and
they are willing to hire people who have the knowledge to teach this type of class. Even
if it were only part-time it would beat a blank. Good luck.

[tonysam]

213. No jobs to be had at any level. n/t

[JDPriestly]

184. Lerkfish, I "retired early," and know how you feel..

This is the price we pay for all those low prices on things made in Macao and China and the Philippines and all the outsourced service representative jobs now being filled by under 30-somethings all over the world.

[gorfle]

185. Some advice.

Based on your description, it sounds like the guy made up his mind the minute he saw you.

Now this is harsh, but it is the reality, and you should pay attention to that. Your appearance cost you the job.

You should do what you can to alter your appearance to make yourself more appealing. It sucks that you have to do this, but too often in this world first impressions are based on looks. In the "nerd fields" we often get cut some slack because nerds aren't expected to be svelte track stars. The fact that you're blowing it based on looks even in a nerd field probably says something.

As to fixing this, control what you can control.

First, clothes. Go to your local mid-to-high end men's store - the kind with assistants to help you shop. Tell them you are interviewing for jobs and you have no fashion sense and need help choosing clothes. This is what I do, because I have no fashion sense. These folks will pick out an ensemble for you to wear.

Second, physical appearance. If you think age is doing you in and you are gray, dye that hair. I've fought my weight my whole life, but if you're unemployed you have time to kill so try to work out and get in better shape.

Third: Hygiene. Before your interview, get a professional haircut in a conservative style. If you don't know what this is, tell the stylist that you are interviewing for job and you want a conservative-styled haircut. If you have a beard, it should be trimmed. Trim your ears and eyebrows and nose hair. As I approach 40 my ears and nose and eyebrows grow bushier than my head! The hair stylist will do your eyebrows and ears if you ask. For your nose you can use tiny scissors or they make a nice electric jobbie that does your nose and ears and can't cut you. It goes without saying, but bathe, and wear a hip, modern cologne. Go to the mall and ask the young girl at the counter what 20-something guys are wearing these days - she will tell you.

Another thing to try: If you can, arrange a telephone interview first before meeting in person. If you've already sold yourself and made a good technical impression, people may be willing to overlook your physical appearance when it comes to the in-person interview.

Like I said, it is absolutely stupid to go through these gyrations for a job based on intellect, but that is the way of this fucked-up world. It sounds like you are getting sunk just on first-sight impressions, so you need to work on that.

[Lerkfish]

187. good advice

but again, I'm doing all that, except dying the grey. I'm wearing shoes that originally cost 160 dollars a few years back, a tailored crisp suit and tie, etc.
the sight difference was all ageism, IMHO. However, you do give good advice that others should also follow.

[LiberalEsto]

194. Please go to Dice.com

This is a really good website for IT jobs.

My husband got laid off 2 days before Christmas in 2008, and found a decent job in just a few weeks through Dice. He kept getting calls from recruiters for months afterward. He's an Oracle DBA. And he's 53.

Good luck - we're all pulling for you!

[katkat]

188. please don't wear a cologne

Some of us have asthma or migraines or just hate strong perfumes. I would have serious reservations about hiring someone who came to the interview wearing cologne, because i know I'd be miserable working near them.

[gorfle]

195. One stink vs. another.

I believe a cologne is appropriate for a job interview. The worst thing you would want is to have B.O.

Moreover, wearing cologne or perfume is customary - most people do and thus it is to be expected.

I would advise against strong colognes or perfumes.

[prolesunited]

208. If you've bathed and use deodarant

you are NOT going to have BO.

As someone with allergies/asthma, I agree with the no perfume/cologne route.

And the worst smell is someone trying to mask BO with scent.

[raccoon]

227. IMO, the worst smell is someone trying to mask the smell of smoke with scent.

Almost makes me gag.

[katkat]

217. no stink

A deodorant suppresses odor. Also, a bath or shower removes odor for some time. Cologne just mixes with odor.

Most people do not wear cologne or perfume, at least the people I'm around.

Back in Elizabethan times, when people bathed every few months, they used to douse themselves in perfume or cologne. Trust me, this is not a good plan.

[gorfle]

226. I believe you are in a minority. n/t

[tonysam]

214. Oh, please. Enough with the insulting crap.

Coloring your hair isn't going to hide your age. This recruiter probably already had somebody picked out.

In fact, I don't know why the OP is even obsessing over this. The person can't prove age discrimination, and he needs to move on to the next job interview.

[gorfle]

225. You need to re-read the OP.

The original poster said:

"I showed up and waited in the reception area. One guy (about 30) walks in and contemptously (but in a whisper) asks the receptionist "who's THAT guy waiting for?". The receptionist tells him I'm the interviewee."

It's pretty clear from the account that this was not a dismissive attitude because he already had someone picked out, but rather because he was shocked/revolted by what he saw or, possibly, smelled.

Coloring your hair isn't going to hide your age.

But it will help.

In fact, I don't know why the OP is even obsessing over this.

I imagine it's because the OP has been trying to find a new job for over a year without success.

[Lerkfish]

228. from this you assume i smell?

what a piece of work you are.

once again, jerk, I was dressed in a very tailored professional suit. I was nicely groomed. I did NOT smell, and even if I did, the guy did not walk close enough to me to know (it was a large reception area)

stop being such an asshole, ok?

[DaveJ]

192. At least they asked you technical questions

I can never even get to the point where anyone asks me technical questions. I'm usually weeded out by a liberal arts major who just doesn't like me in general. No wonder the economy's a mess when people aren't being hired based on their abilities.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

197. Totally dicky and unprofessional behavior on the part of the guy interviewing

you.

I was just laid off on Friday, and am trying my best not to get down (the place is sinking faster than the Titanic). That guy probably would have been a prick to work for. If that's how they treat someone they are interviewing, imagine how they must treat actual employees. Sorry to hear about your situation. Let's keep our chins up as best we can. We're not alone.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

199. The Census are wanting people

http://2010.census.gov/2010censusjobs/

[Rosa Luxemburg]

200. also substitute teaching and IAs

[Pooka Fey]

201. Thank you for sharing your story and good luck to you, Lerkfish.

:hug:

[david_vincent]

202. Please read, Lerkfish

I work in higher education and my advice is to quit what you've been doing and look at colleges. You should try applying at small colleges (possibly religious schools) that have been slow to catch on with website development, blogging, online academic services, etc. and are now trying to catch up. You'll find that most colleges will absolutely not discriminate against anyone for any reason, including your age -- the best candidate gets the job, period. That goes double for public schools, including community colleges, who know perfectly well that they'll get nailed hard for discriminating.

BTW, I once had an interview in which I drove a long way to an industrial area, was kept waiting past the appointed time, and when I was ushered in, the guy said to me simply, "I don't have any questions for you. Do you have any questions for me?" And that was it. And that was for a job selling refrigerators and microwaves !! The company went bust about a year later, to my amusement.

[Lerkfish]

205. good suggestion... unfortunately I've already applied to several

but I do believe what I will do is save all these suggestions, take a breather and revamp my website and presentation, and then start again.

[tonysam]

212. Public schools? Forget it. Age discrimination is RAMPANT

in public school districts.

[texastoast]

207. B.U.M.M.E.R.

Have you registered here?

I've heard good things about this place. It must be good. My firm has it blocked. Have you tried it? Lemme know.

http://www.linkedin.com/

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

210. I recommend Linked In.

[texastoast]

211. Sorry. It was a big thread

But obviously, great minds think alike. :hi:

[HughMoran]

223. I still get calls from headhunters that have found me there

Good advice.

[radhika]

209. Same here in California in Healthcare IT

Basically 2003 was the turning point for many of us, definitely for me.

I had my own consulting corp, a masters in public health and many years working and/or consulting in the industry. Then after some time off to travel (I know, I did the no-no) I couldn't get a contract or paying gig ANYWHERE. Must have reformatted the old resume a zillion ways, made the calls and visits. Kept reducing the 'salary requirement' to OPEN. Finally, got the point. I'm too old, too experienced, not nearly reptilian enough and alas made too much money at times. That plus the offshore job-shoppers who often subcontracted on big projects - after getting exclusives with clients - wanted someone who'd work 18 hours a day, 6-7 days a week UNDER INTENSE PRESSURE (their words).

I now teach part-time, am an activist and writer and walked away from my debts guilt free. Of course, retirement is a box under a bridge...but that is a future dilemma.

[lib2DaBone]

216. Good luck to you Lerkfish. The same Identical situation happened to me...

I am 9 years older. Some of the 20-somethings interviewing me are downright rude and creepy.

Like you, I would expect a manager to chat a bit... talk about company goals and experience, etc.

Not anymore.. I guess it isn't done that way. Mature discourse and fact finding do not seem to be high on the 'new' hiring agenda. As you mentioned, these kids seem more interested in hiring buddies they can hang with, rather than perform a work function.

I consider my self to be a "young" 55+. I jog every morning, I have a blackberry (although I don't text and drive), I keep up with Facebook and Twitter trends. I even know what a Chai Latte is... lol , but to no avail..

Some of the situations I have experienced during my last 3 months of job searching.. would qualify as an episode of "Twilight Zone".. or maybe the" Adams Family". It is VERY strange out there.

Hang in there.. it's not you who needs to change.. that is for sure.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

220. So sorry to hear that.

My first career sort of disappeared in 1994 and I let my license lapse. My BA in biology was not any good for helping me get a job nor was my Juris Doctor. I spent 12 years in college earning three degrees. Thought it would make me employable. Ha! Typing in high school did more to get me a job than 9 years of busting ass in college getting heavy duty degrees.

I had some sucky temp jobs and finally stopped looking in 2001. My last job was a temp job that lasted a whole nine days in the summer of 2001.

I decided to let them go to hell. I have a renthouse for income. If they don't appreciate all us well educated baby boomers, that's too bad. It's criminal the way our society tells us to train for certain jobs, and then the jobs are not there (example:Sputnik, NASA and scientists and engineers).