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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 01:23 PM
Original message
Ebonics and Harry Reid
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 01:26 PM by Tom Rinaldo
Poor Harry, he must have been too busy representing his constituents in Congress to stay current on the latest politically correct intellectual terminology for identifiable speech patterns among African Americans. Harry Reid should have couched his political observation about Barack Obama by referencing Ebonics. Given the decades long consistent track record of the National Republican Party and Conservative commentators demanding that public debate must ALWAYS employ current politically correct language, Reid should have known better than to say "Negroid". I mean, politically correct language has long been a central Conservative cause, right?

It is simply Reid's bad luck that he was quoted a few months too soon to at least be able to cite U.S. Census forms as supportive documentation for use of the term "Negroid". Even though the Right wing has been loudly leading the attack on the Census Bureau for inclusion of the term "Negro" for weeks now (though I haven't actually fact checked that assertion, it's the only logical assumption to make, right?) no one can expect Reid, as a Boomer Democrat, to be as current in his mastery of politically correct language as are cutting edge conservatives like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.

Oh oh. Wait a minute, I may have to make a correction. On closer reading of my source material, I am not at all certain that Ebonics is the latest politically correct terminology after all. It's a little unclear:

"The term Ebonics (a blend of ebony and phonics) gained recognition in 1996 as a result of the Oakland School Board’s use of the term in its proposal to use African American English in teaching Standard English in the Oakland Schools. The term was coined by Robert Williams in 1973, but it wasn’t until the Ebonics controversy that Ebonics became widely used. Most linguists prefer the term African American English as it aligns the variety with regional, national, and sociocultural varieties of English such as British English, Southern English, Cajun English, and so forth."

My source here is a discussion by the Center for Applied Linguistics of "Dialects", contained under the sub-heading; "African American English".
http://www.cal.org/topics/dialects/aae.html

Here is a little more from them:

"African American EnglishAfrican American English (AAE) is a dialect of American English used by many African Americans in certain settings and circumstances. Like other dialects of English, AAE is a regular, systematic language variety that contrasts with other dialects in terms of its grammar, pronunciation, and vocabulary.

Terms for African American English

The terms used by scholars to refer to the unique language variety of many African Americans reflects the changing terms used to refer to African Americans themselves across the decades. Early studies of AAE in the 1960s used the terms Negro speech, Negro English, or Negro American dialect. Starting around 1970 and continuing throughout the decade, the preferred term was Black English or Black English Vernacular (BEV). In the mid-1980s African-American became the preferred term for black Americans, and by 1991 linguists were using the term African American Vernacular English (AAVE). Today African American English (AAE) is the generally accepted term, although AAVE is still used too."


Who could possibly have thunk it? It seems there is a vast body of scholarly work discussing how Black Americans often speak in ways that set them apart from other identifiable groups of Americans. CAL has actually amassed a bibliography of more than 650 print references related to African American English (or whatever you want to call it). You can check it out at their web site.

This semantic terminology thingee obviously is a perfect subject for endless media coverage, public debate, and even political acrimonious exchanges. It is so much more polite a topic for social discourse than examining whether some Whites are more comfortable accepting Blacks in leadership positions who come closest to looking and sounding like most Whites. Thank heavens for civility, political correctness, and conservative integrity.






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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hi Tom!
If Harry Reid would have used the term "Ebonics",
he'd be under the jail as we speak, deeper than he is now.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No doubt
It was just my playful way of pointing out how we often twist ourselves into pretzels over language. The folks who first coined and used the term Ebonics did not mean it to be disrespectful of anyone. Languauge is a tool to communicate both concepts and emotions, but sometimes it's a clumsy one. Still the actual intent is usually easily figured out even when it is awkward. In Reid's case it seems pretty damn obvious he wasn't intending to make any racial slurs.

I'm curious, how is this thing playing in your congregation Frenchie?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Folks are smarter than allowing themselves to be manipulated based on media
going on a witchhunt, Tom.

The fact is that Barbara Lee is a member of my congregation,
and as you know, Barbara Lee speaks for many...

"Over the years, I have had an opportunity to work with Majority Leader Reid," Rep. Barbara Lee, chairwoman of the caucus, said in a statement.

"Senator Reid's record provides a stark contrast to actions of Republicans to block legislation that would benefit poor and minority communities."

Lee added that she looked forward to Reid serving as majority leader.

"There are too many issues like the economy, job creation and energy for these regrettable comments to distract us from the work that must be done on behalf of the American people," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/11/reid.obama/index.html
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I pretty much figured that
I would have been surprised if it were anything different. Thanks Frenchie.
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johnlal Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Now that we sorted out his language confusion...
how do we explain away his preference for light skin over dark skin?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Simple. It wasn't and isn't his preference.
Obama was running to be elected. There is nothing in the U.S. constitution that denies racists, or those who are in any way sometimes uncomfortable with those of other races, from voting.

Do you honestly believe that there is not some degree of greater prejudice against those African Americans who have dark complexions than against those with relatively lighter complexions? Especially male African Americans? Obviously not since you are willing to assume that Reid has that prejudice. I think that bias is an extremely ugly reality that is fading increasingly rapidly with time but has not yet been fully overcome. Elections sometimes are extremely close. Reid was making an unfortunately accurate, in my opinion, political observation. That doesn't mean he likes it.
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johnlal Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Senator Reid backed Candidate Obama based on how he perceived
other white folks would judge him. In so doing, he stacked Senator Obama against a racial stereotype. Luckily for President Obama, he came out favorably. What if Obama had been darker skinned, or if he had let a slang word slip during the campaign? Would that have lost Senator Reid's support? Could he have decided that Senator Obama was just too black to win?

We have so many gatekeepers in Washington DC. The Senate is overwhelmingly caucasian, and with comments like this it's not hard to see why.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Reid backed Obama because he supported his leadership and thought he could win
There are lots of folks out there who I would love to support for President except that I know they will certainly lose.

I do not expect U.S. Senators to support candidates during primaries who they strongly suspect won't win. This was a private comment made by Reid arguing that racism would NOT be enough to stop Obama from being elected. Reid was correct, it wasn't.

I do not believe that a dark skinned candidate with the amount of experience Obama had who spoke with a noticable "Black dialect" would have won the Presidency in 2008. So go ahead, call me a racist too.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. and being photogenic has to figure into it. Campaign trail photos
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 03:49 PM by SoCalDem
are all over the place.. It's just a fact that the darker a subject is, the more difficult it can be to get a GOOD photo. Anyone who has ever photographed their pets knows how difficult it can be to get a good photo of their darker hued pets, and the lighter colored ones seem to never take a "bad" pic.

Remember the photoshopping of OJ? and all the furor after the fact?

We are NOT yet a colorblind society.. Look at tv & movies.. Try to think of a truly dark-skinned person that has a high visibility job. (there ARE a few, but there are MANY more who are not)

It's always the "lowest common denominator" ...what appeals to the broadest base..what is non-threatening to the scaredy cats....what photographs well..

Every actress has eyes, ears, a nose, a mouth & hair ..but the combination of those basic elements, makes all the difference.. It's the same with candidates.

Harry was wrong in what he said, but he did not say anything that many black people have not said.

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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Stop promoting republican talking points.
There are many other issues we need to be dealing with. This is another fucked up diversion, so PLEASE STOP IT !
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. he said nothing of the sort. only a moron freeper
would compare what Reid said to what Lott said, dearie.
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ChucktownMillie Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. at least admit the double standard
do i think reid is a racist or meant anything racist by his statements? no!

but this board would be positively outraged if this statement had been made by karl rove or someone else on the right.

hillary dropping into a stereotypical southern black man accent. no problem.

bill telling kennedy that not that long ago, obama would have been serving them coffee. no offense meant there.

reids recent comments. his hearts in the right place.


congressman wilson yells liar or the tea party attendess disagree with a policy statement. RACIST RACIST!

at least be consistent with your outrage.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. You obviously weren't reading DU during the primary.

When a lot of Democrats *did* resort to racist tactics trying to derail Obama's campaign. And were rightly castigated for it.

Just post an OP favoring the Clintons, for instance, and you will be mobbed by angry DUers to whom the Clintons became *dead* for that very reason.

Welcome to the Demomcratic Party. Try to spell the name correctly. It just makes Republics (sic) look childish when they insist on misspelling it.


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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Hello.
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Libs are such hypocrites, is the meme.
I know what RWers say on RW message boards about liberals. You RWers like to say that liberals are just as racist as any republican, and that we have a "double standard".

The real issue is, that you RWers are not making the distinction between blatant racism and an isolated case of poorly chosen words.
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johnlal Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. "Poorly Chosen Words" is always the spin on racist comments.
"I spoke inartfully", "Poorly Chosen words", "Call 'em like I see 'em". These defenses are always trotted out after somebody gets caught saying something racist. Trent Lott used the same defense.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You are a RW Troll.
No doubt about it.
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johnlal Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'm not.
I've been on this board since 1993, I'm a registered Democrat, I volunteer as an election official for the Democratic party, and I know racism when I see it.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. .
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 04:04 AM by Quantess
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Michael Steele says there’s no such thing as black dialect, in his blog “What Up?”
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OI812 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I love it.
:D
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Hello.
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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OI812 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Thank you. This place is about the most interesting part of the internet
i have ever seen!!
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You need to get out more.
:P :rofl:

Enjoy it!
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OI812 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Heck, I've only BEEN out for around a year
haha
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Harry Reid was using an outdated word to describe AAVE
I think he was speaking out of ignorance, not hatred.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I completely agree
I just got back from a long road trip this AM and I don't thinnk I was quite awake enough when I wrote this OP, lol. I don't think I used sarcasm deftly enough.

I fully support Reid on this. It was a private political observation and it was spot on accurate. And the fact is there is no obvious consensus about what to call AAVE. I've read others try to use lables like "urban" and "hip hop" also. Reid fumbvled the terminology but that is no mortal sin. Harry Reid is a man who supported the election of America's first African American President, not one who lamented that a strict segregationist wasn't elected President.
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