Ok, I understand that using "gay" as a term of derision is poor form

[MrScorpio]

It goes with the "F" word and also any implication that anyone whose sexuality is in doubt impugns their character (Especially people that we can't stand... Like Republicans).

Unfortunately, a few DUers still make these types of gaffes. And when they do happen, shit starts getting out of hand and a piss fest occurs.

When that happens it appears to me that it's nothing more than the kind of flame festing that's a frequent problem on a lot of internet message boards.

So, I figure that there's two ways to try to fix this:

1. More piss fests where everyone gets offended and nothing is accomplished.

Or a better way:

2. Respectful education... But only if everyone involved are willing to be honest brokers.

Yeah, some of us still have a way to go with that.

But, I hope that we're all willing to try.

[boston bean]

1. What's so fuckin difficult for people to realize that when they

use gay slurs and stereotypes to describe and insult an enemy, they are basically telling the fuckin world that they are a homophobe?!?

edit to add:

AND A BIGOT!

[MrScorpio]

9. Perhaps there's more than one assumption?

Perhaps, they're ignorant that the term is homophobic without actually being homophobic themselves.

Is offense taking and flame festiing the best way to fix that problem? Especially against someone who would rather be your ally than an enemy.

Or, is there a better way?

People who do that are wrong... Are you willing to forgive with them the benefit of the doubt and an effort to help them understand and change?

What's more important, taking offense or changing minds for the better?

[boston bean]

12. Perhaps, I just did educate the ignorant POS. How would you have liked me to put it? nt

[MrScorpio]

19. I doubt that people who are referred to as an "ignorant POS" are willing to be receptive

You're angry, I understand.

I think that is you tried a non-angry approach... You'd come at the OP from a different angle

[boston bean]

22. I also take offense to your "poor form" characterization

Which is nothing but an excuse for bigoted behavior.

You want to make excuses or soft pedal for that poster, be my guest.

But do not expect me to join or agree with you.

edit sp

[MrScorpio]

25. As long as we're both honest, it's fine with me if either you agree or not

That's not the point.

I'm just approaching this person from a different angle... BTW, I have a feeling that I'm going to see results

[Forkboy]

2. #2 is pretty hard when the person who says such things tells those he upset to laugh at themselves.

[Bucky]

15. Agreed. The question is.... is it better to react emotionally or to try and effect change

Changing someone's heart and mind, from thinking sexual slurs are an acceptable way of belittling Republicans to finding appropriate ways to demean the humanity of those who think and act different than us.

Or maybe... and I'm just throwing this out there... maybe the whole culture of calling all Republicans whores, nazis, thugs, and idiots is simply conducive to encouraging people to seek out any and every possible hook to hang our hate on. One reason not to start brush fires is that when the wind shifts, you might just put your own house in danger.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

6. I'm in favor of gay people (or straight) being "queeny" or not "queeny" without a snarky commentary

from anyone about it, or calling it "queeny" in the first friggin' place.

[boston bean]

7. your observations are purely homophobic and bigoted.

What the fuck business is it of yours if Christie is a homosexual?

And what the hell does it matter? What makes it so important to you?

[blondeatlast]

10. "my acquaintances who happen to be gay" Keep talking, you might

even believe it yourself someday.

[Ptah]

11. Quoting noamnety,

make an attempt to recognize (without being defensive) why this is offensive to so many here
take it as a learning experience

[Bucky]

16. Perfectly said. Thank you.

But for the record: Ron Christie is a knucklehead.

[Ptah]

24. I wish I had said it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7442586&mesg_id=7442697

I was quoting DUer noamnety

[MrScorpio]

23. If you offend people with your post rather than get people to agree with you

Is it truly "Brilliant"?

Feedback is very important

[tblue]

26. With utmost respect: Is wondering if someone is gay offensive?

I don't see it that way in the least, but I'm not gay, and I try not to be insensitive to anyone. So, with all due deference, I ask any gay readers this:

Do you feel that wondering or asking if someone is gay is an insult to either the subject person and/or the gay community? I don't see it as any kind of insult, any more than asking if someone is "tall" or "from Chicago." (But who am I? I'm asking you.)

If the question was whether a person is "black" or "Jewish" or "disabled" or "short," (I am myself -- or am related to people -- in those categories), should we as a liberal community take equal offense? I'd say no. There's nothing inherently concerning necessarily attached to those attributes. What could be insulting is wondering aloud or in writing if someone is something undesirable. (I won't even begin to give examples.) However, being gay does NOT fall in that category.

So what's the verdict?

Am I missing some point?

Is this entire question something you care to comment on or is this a straight person's hangup?

[Neecy]

28. Your user name seems oddly familiar, dusmcj

Haven't you dropped by the GLBT forum on occasion to spread your pearls of wisdom? Or stir up shit? I've seen you somewhere...trying to remember where...

[Ptah]

4. I think this reply was along the lines of what you are suggesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7442586&mesg_id=7442697


noamnety Mon Jan-11-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message

26. suggestions for the OP

request that the mods delete this entirely
make an attempt to recognize (without being defensive) why this is offensive to so many here
take it as a learning experience

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bucky]

8. Is it a piss fest or a flame fest? You can't have it both ways, Scorpio.

But mutually excluding phrases aside, well said.

I'll say the lion's share of the blame goes to the offending party, the mook who says "I hate Republican X, he's so loathsome he must be a closet case." But it takes two to tango (or, to go with your analogy above, it takes two to set piss on fire). It may have to fall on the more enlightened parties to respond with grace under fire (or under pee) and tell the mook politely "that sort of hate language is off limits and is offensive to those of us who want to respect all our differences."

Only say so in a much less lame ass way that what I've just posted. I wonder if we, as a community, have the discipline to fight ignorant prejudice with gentle redirection rather than escalating. That's one hell of a challenge.

[MrScorpio]

14. I never said that it was easy

A lot of times, worthy efforts are very difficult

[KG]

13. i'm pissing on the flames.

whoa! hot!

[FreeState]

17. I've been here for years and years at some point you stop making excuses

DU has been around for many years now. In the first couple years yes it was a teaching moment - but not now. I believe the board admin has said as much as well.

See Skinners comments to the GLBT community and DU in this old thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1324374

[Nikki Stone1]

18. Forgot about Skinner's thread--Good catch.

+1

[blondeatlast]

21. I forgot about that--thank you. And good for our Admins. nt

[blondeatlast]

20. Not in this case. Everyday I see my brothers and sisters mocked,

hated, and hurt and there's little to nothing I can do about it.

But if tearing a hater a new one on a message board makes me00\\--or anyone else--fell a little bit better, I'm going to.

[treestar]

27. How do I get 12-14 year olds in my life to quit using it as a generalized

pejorative?

[MrScorpio]

29. I love this approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVxjr6-UAkA

[treestar]

31. One of my favorite people

"That's so 12 year old boy" :rofl:

[hlthe2b]

30. That is a problem I've observed as well...

I don't have kids, but just from overhearing conversations from time to time, I have noticed they use terms referring to the gay community as general perjoratives... I also don't watch much tv... Is it propagated there as well?

[treestar]

32. They barely seem to be thinking of the gay community

It's just their word for "weird" or "undesirable"

[TokenQueer]

33. I dig ya, MrScorpio, but I gotta call 'bullshit.'

Any straight person tossing around terms like queeny and mincing, then using the tired 'my best friends are gay' line as a shield for their bigotry, is not interested in a honest brokering of ideas.