My 76 year old mother said today that if America put as much effort into Meth as they do smoking..

[Randall Flagg]

That the effort might be better spent. (in reducing usage)

She hasn't had a cigarette in twenty years.

She's a life long Dem.

And the full quote included crack. It happened during a discussion on legalizing pot which she has been for since the 70's.


So, smoking nazi's, which is worse?

[Randall Flagg]

1. Took 30 seconds for the first unrec.

Didn't surprise me.

[TexasObserver]

30. Your uncanny familiarity with DU nuances doesn't surprise me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. Gosh, you call some DUers 'nazis', and you're surprised you get an unrec?

Are you surprised when the sun sets in the west, too?

[Juche]

2. I don't know

Smoking is a huge health issue. It is the biggest cause of cancer and a huge contributor to cardiovascular problems and diabetes.

The adult smoking rate has been cut in half in the last few decades, from about 40% down to 20%. So it is working.

[Randall Flagg]

4. You are absolutely right.

It takes a terrible toll. But it is not nearly as devastating on a wide scale as drugs such as meth and crack. My sister and I were both tobacco smokers but she smoked some other stuff and died at 37 so I guess I do have a dog in the race here.

No doubt, tobacco is not a good thing for the body, but it is a thing that does not cloud the judgment other than making you a slave to it, but there are so many more serious things we could be addressing. With today's current laws, 2nd hand smoke is a terribly easy thing to avoid and the many ongoing PSA's about the evils of tobacco will keep the future generations apprised of the evils of smoking.

Just as the useless "wars" monies could have been spent to cure just about every fucking thing in the world, the monies and energies being put into the wars on smokers (me) might be rethought.

[salvorhardin]

8. Wide scale meth and crack use?

The numbers don't seem to support that claim.

For instance, in 2008, only 0.4% and 0.3% of Americans 12 and older had used crack and meth respectively. That is actually down slightly from 0.6% and 0.5% in 2007. Contrast that with cannabis use which was 10.3% in 2008 and 10.1% in 2007.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2K8NSDUH/tabs/Sect1peTabs1to46.htm#Tab1.1B

If you look at lifetime use, in 2008 just 5% of Americans had used meth at some point in their lifetime, down from 5.3% the previous year
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2K8NSDUH/tabs/Sect1peTabs47to92.htm#Tab1.91B

Crack use saw even lower numbers. In 2007 only 3.4% of Americans had used crack within their lifetime, down from 2007's 3.5%.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2K8NSDUH/tabs/Sect1peTabs1to46.htm#Tab1.14B

Meanwhile, in 2008, some 41% of Americans had used cannabis in their lifetime which was up from 40.6% in 2007.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2K8NSDUH/tabs/Sect1peTabs1to46.htm#Tab1.12B

Despite hyperbolic media reports, the numbers just do not justify the belief that there is an epidemic of meth use. Like the crack epidemic before, it seems to be a moral panic fueled by misreporting, law enforcement agencies and inflated anecdotes.

That's not to say it's not bad where you are. On a wide scale though? Not so much.

[Randall Flagg]

14. I have to go through personal experience.

I have smoked for 40 years. Still Kicking.

My Mom smoked for 30 years and had her hip replaced.

My Grandfather smoked until he died... At 93.

His father did likewise until he died. Of diabetes at 97.

OTOH, my MIL died of emphysema at 70 and smoked.

My god, using today's statistics, humanity should have ceased to exist 60 years after Raleigh brought tobacco to England.

[salvorhardin]

17. Good for you and your genes

But I'm sure you're aware that early death isn't the only negative health effect of tobacco use.

I'm sure you're also aware that the plural of 'anecdote' isn't 'data'.

[Randall Flagg]

18. Anecdote does not mean personal experience.

Or visa versa.

I guess it must suck to have your genes? Getting cancer if a smoker looks at you?

[uppityperson]

27. a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biograp

Anecdote: "a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biographical.

Thank you dictionary.com.

To Randall, what? Try again.

[salvorhardin]

33. Actually it does suck to have my genes

My genetic heritage is part of why I am disabled.

Please do not attribute opinions to me that I never proclaimed though. While I'm in favor of limited smoking bans in public facilities and work places, I am not in favor of wide scale smoking bans. Nor am I happy to see the way in which smokers have come to be demonized by many people. Aside from just being plain ethically wrong, it's not productive. Long term smokers are addicted. Their brains have been permanently altered by nicotine and will always crave it. This makes smoking cessation recidivism rates extraordinarily high. Only about 25% of all people who attempt to quit smoking are able to do so permanently. To blame people and demonize them because they're not able to quite smoking is stupid and wrong. And those who justify dehumanizing smokers because "they didn't have to choose to start smoking" are bigots. Everybody makes stupid choices in their lives even when they're fully informed of the consequences. So it is a petty person indeed who belittles smokers for needing to smoke.

[Juche]

19. Smoking cuts a few years off the end of your life

But humanity isn't going to go extinct from it.

Either way, I am lucky that I am not in an area hard hit by the meth epidemic. So I can't really comment on how bad it is in person.

However I thought there was a meaningful law enforcement effort to combat meth use. Do you mean you want to see more public education, more treatment, more law enforcement, or what exactly?

[salvorhardin]

20. There is no meth epidemic

Please see my post #8 above.

[Randall Flagg]

21. Right.

And there's rainbows and unicorns waiting when we die.



Crystal Meth Statistics

* Over 1.4 million Americans have tired meth this year.
(source: 2006 National Survey on Drug Use and Health)

* Over 12.3 million Americans age 12 and older have tired meth since 2003.
* Meth use is greatest among 35-45 year olds.
* The biggest increase in treatment is among 18-25 year olds.
* Meth treatment admission has outpaced cocaine and herion in 14 US states.
* "Ice" currently sells for $12,000 to $16,000 per pound at the wholesale level.
(source: A&E documentary "Meth in the City" aired 12/17/06)

According to the Oregonian newspaper in November 2006:
The purity of methamphetamine has fallen sharply across the country while its price has increased, suggesting that a crackdown on meth ingredients in Mexico and the United States has dramatically curtailed production of the drug.
METHFIG1.JPG - 15224 Bytes

Meth seized by drug agents in spring 2006 averaged 51 percent pure, down from 77 percent in spring 2005, according to The Oregonian's analysis of federal data. At the same time, prices have more than doubled. A gram of uncut meth cost about $260 this past spring, up from $100 a year before. It was the first significant, sustained decline in purity and increase in price since 1997.

The impact on meth use nationwide cannot yet be calculated. But some treatment providers and meth users in Oregon say people are using meth less frequently and not getting as high when they do. Studies have shown that fewer people use drugs when purity is low and the price is high. Rob Bovett, legal counsel to the Oregon Narcotics Enforcement Association and a national meth activist, said the drop in purity signifies progress against meth producers. "What's happening is clear as day," Bovett said. "They're making less meth."

The setback for the meth trade follows tight restrictions by the United States and Mexico on ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, ingredients in cold medicine that are used to make meth. Starting in 2004, dozens of states began requiring an ID and signature to buy cold remedies with pseudoephedrine. Drug companies responded by introducing cold remedies with phenylephrine, which won't make meth. Seizures of meth labs fell by 59 percent in Oregon and 30 percent nationally from 2004 to 2005. U.S. officials predict further reductions because cold-pill restrictions became law nationwide on Sept. 30.
METHFIG1.JPG - 15224 Bytes

South of the border, Mexican officials took a more direct approach. They slapped stringent quotas on companies that import pseudoephedrine. They barred middlemen from the business and shut down suspicious pharmacies. The results for the chemical and pharmaceutical industries are staggering. North America's imports of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, trade data show, have declined 75 percent since 2004. The projected 850-ton reduction equals half of global trade in the chemicals for 2004, statistics from the International Narcotics Control Board show.

Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine manufacturers overseas have suffered devastating losses in sales. Now there are signs that the reduction in imports also is contributing to a violent struggle among Mexican traffickers, who supply an estimated 80 percent of meth that Americans consume. On July 24, robbers stole 1 ton of pseudoephedrine from a pharmaceutical company warehouse in Mexico City. The thieves left behind four security guards bound, gagged and stabbed to death. The degree of violence was unprecedented for a pseudoephedrine heist. But the motive was powerful: A 25-kilogram barrel of pseudoephedrine, worth $1,500 in the legitimate marketplace, reportedly costs $220,000 on the Mexican black market.

Mexico's top prosecutor for organized crime, Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos, said the sharp drop in imports has made traffickers desperate to acquire pseudoephedrine. "That reduction is the crisis that we see here today," he said. U.S. and Mexican officials are coordinating efforts to curb diversion of meth's essential ingredients.


Christy McCampbell, the State Department's new deputy assistant secretary for counternarcotics, said her first official visit to Mexico focused primarily on meth because of the country's booming production of the drug in recent years. "They've been cooking, cooking, cooking down there," said McCampbell, who learned about meth superlabs as head of California's Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement. But McCampbell said Mexican officials are ready to attack the meth problem. "They are becoming acutely aware of it," McCampbell said, "and they've made every indication that I can see that they want to work with it."

The profound shift in the meth world has been hard to miss, according to police, treatment counselors and users. Oregon State Police Detective John Mogle, a member of the Klamath County Interagency Narcotics Task Force, said dealers increasingly dilute or "step on" their meth with additives. "If you get down to the small user that's buying the eight ball, your percentage is going to be way low, because it's been stepped on so much," Mogle said, using the street term for one-eighth of an ounce. "I think everywhere, the whole state's seeing that."

Mogle said a pound of meth in Klamath County went for $6,000 in early 2005; now it's $11,000 to $13,000. Ounces last year ranged in price from $500 to $600; now they sell for $1,100 to $1,200. Although it is too soon to quantify how meth users are responding to weaker, more expensive meth, there are promising signs. "What we're hearing from clients is that the meth that is around has probably been cut more, and they're not getting as high from it," said Rita Sullivan, executive director of the OnTrack treatment program in Medford. What's more, the drug is hard to come by. Kelli Bradley, 33, of Medford stopped using meth in July 2005 after joining a recovery group. When she relapsed eight months later, she no longer could get as high as she wanted, anytime she wanted.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. And no one is being sent to prison for cigarette posession, either.

Your attempt at drawing some sort of equivalency between the situations is completely idiotic.

The worst thing that generally happens to cigarette smokers is, they have to go outside to light up. Fascism!

[uppityperson]

28. Link?

[Juche]

22. You also said there was no crack epidemic though

But the emergence of crack totally changed life in the ghettos, from what I have heard of people who lived through it.

Besides, it really doesn't matter if only 5% of people have used meth, because not all people are the same. Emotionally troubled people from small towns might have far higher rates of meth usage than 5%. And small towns are supposedly the areas hit by meth.

Demographics and geography play a role in who uses what drugs. So that 5% might be 20-30% in a small, poor, rural city.

[salvorhardin]

37. Absolutely

But there is a perception that both meth and crack use are/were wide spread. They weren't. Again, I'm not denying the negative effects either of these drugs can have on their users or their communities. I am merely trying to counter the myth that crack and meth use were/are of epidemic proportions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Wasn't the crack "epidemic" a myth as well?

White middle class and upper class use cocaine at the same rates as poor blacks. The difference is how it's dealt with as a law enforcement issue.

[salvorhardin]

63. Yes. I said as much elsewhere in my replies on this post.

The whole "crack baby" thing was a myth too as this NY Times article explains (bolding mine):

Cocaine is undoubtedly bad for the fetus. But experts say its effects are less severe than those of alcohol and are comparable to those of tobacco — two legal substances that are used much more often by pregnant women, despite health warnings.

Surveys by the Department of Health and Human Services in 2006 and 2007 found that 5.2 percent of pregnant women reported using any illicit drug, compared with 11.6 percent for alcohol and 16.4 percent for tobacco.

“The argument is not that it’s O.K. to use cocaine in pregnancy, any more than it’s O.K. to smoke cigarettes in pregnancy,” said Dr. Deborah A. Frank, a pediatrician at Boston University. “Neither drug is good for anybody.”

But cocaine use in pregnancy has been treated as a moral issue rather than a health problem, Dr. Frank said. Pregnant women who use illegal drugs commonly lose custody of their children, and during the 1990s many were prosecuted and jailed.

Cocaine slows fetal growth, and exposed infants tend to be born smaller than unexposed ones, with smaller heads. But as these children grow, brain and body size catch up.

At a scientific conference in November, Dr. Lester presented an analysis of a pool of studies of 14 groups of cocaine-exposed children — 4,419 in all, ranging in age from 4 to 13. The analysis failed to show a statistically significant effect on I.Q. or language development. In the largest of the studies, I.Q. scores of exposed children averaged about 4 points lower at age 7 than those of unexposed children.

In tests that measure specific brain functions, there is evidence that cocaine-exposed children are more likely than others to have difficulty with tasks that require visual attention and “executive function” — the brain’s ability to set priorities and pay selective attention, enabling the child to focus on the task at hand.

Cocaine exposure may also increase the frequency of defiant behavior and poor conduct, according to Dr. Lester’s analysis. There is also some evidence that boys may be more vulnerable than girls to behavior problems.

But experts say these findings are quite subtle and hard to generalize. “Just because it is statistically significant doesn’t mean that it is a huge public health impact,” said Dr. Harolyn M. Belcher, a neurodevelopmental pediatrician who is director of research at the Kennedy Krieger Institute’s Family Center in Baltimore.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27coca.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

[Warren DeMontague]

25. And my dad smoked camel unfiltereds for 3 decades.

And he's absolutely fine, except for being dead from lung cancer.

[w8liftinglady]

31. I think it depends where you live...it is RAMPANT here

in Ellis county,Texas...tons of meth labs,parental rights d/c'd,and yes-smoking goes hand in hand with meth.I can spot a meth addict a block away,and I see between 15-20 every day.
http://www.raconline.org/info_guides/meth/methfaq.php#use

[salvorhardin]

32. It does depend on where you live

Since drug use is a social phenomenon it is spread among members of particular social networks*. That's why some places can see extraordinary meth use rates but overall there's no widespread epidemic. As I noted above, only a third of a percent of all Americans 12 years and older used meth in 2008. That still amounts to almost a million people, but it's in no way rampant.

Nor am I at all discounting the harm that meth can do. It is a dangerous drug that can cause serious harm in its regular users. I don't know the addiction rates for meth and I don't have the time to look them up right now, but I suspect they're fairly high. Probably nowhere near as high as for tobacco, which, if I recall correctly, ends up addicting some 35% of all people who try it but definitely much higher than cannabis where only about 10% of all people who try it end up dependent. And of course, the withdrawal symptoms for cannabis are orders of magnitude less severe than for meth or nicotine.

Please don't misconstrue that as a classist statement either. All I'm saying is that drug use spreads person to person since people tend to stay within their own social circle of friends, family and acquaintances. Class does play a role in which illicit drugs are "acceptable" though.

[w8liftinglady]

51. True-as a nurse,I see a lot of suffering caused by substance abuse...this one ..

affects the children SO much more.Kids in meth labs have to be decontaminated before they can be seen in the ER(unless they are obviously ill).A lot of kids have high levels of meth in their bloodstreams due to osmosis.Their diets consist of hamburgers and strawberry soda.They are neglected and act out in many ways due to their total lack of affection.Just because something isn't a problem in your neighborhood,doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Next time you're at the 7-11, see if the guy behind the counter will sell you a pack of marlboros.

4:30 AM on Sunday you can buy a pack of smokes in most states.. can't do that with booze, in a lot of places.

Funny, with all the "wars" on smokers you speak of, the product in question is still legal and readily available, all over the place, probably 24-7.

[Withywindle]

3. Meth has brought a LOT of violent crime into rural areas that never had much of it before.

Like my home town. :(


(Tobacco probably would too if it was illegal. I hope it never will be for that reason alone - I come from a tobacco state.)

Prohibition-type laws make middle-class "reformer" types feel better - but they get more poor people killed.

[Fumesucker]

40. It's not the meth that brought the violent crime..

It's the drug war..

Alcohol is still the most violence inducing drug solely on the basis of psycho-pharmaceutical properties and the language reflects that..

Don't listen to him, it's the liquor talking.

Mean drunk.

Barrroom brawl, bar fight.

Ten feet tall and bulletproof.

[anonymous171]

47. That makes absolutely no sense.

[Fumesucker]

56. You've never heard those terms?

Talk to any cop, they arrest violent drunks all the time..

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Meth brings crime in the form of "drug war".

It's the sellers who cause the violence. Seller A considers the corner of First and Main HIS turf, and HIS private meth store. Seller B wants to make a little more money, so he sets up shop on the same corner. Seller A attempts to pop a cap in the ass of Seller B, misses, and Little Johnny, who is sitting in his room playing a video game gets hit in the head with the stray bullet.

Meanwhile Seller C sees the trouble with A and B and thinks he can move in under their nose while they're fighting each other. Sellers A and B pull out their Mac 10's and let lead fly in the direction of C. Four innocent bystanders are hit by stray bullets.

Supplier Z fronts Seller A $10,000 worth of meth, and Seller C $15,000. Seller B rips off Seller A. Supplier Z wants his mo'fuckin money, and caps Seller A AND Seller B. Seller C moves his business from First and Main to just across the street from the local Jr. high school.

While all this is going on, Redneck Joe goes out back of the Dew Drop Inn with Hillbilly Harry and they get in a fistfight over Linda Sue. Twenty minutes later Joe and Harry are slobbering on each other's shoulder in the DDI talking about that time they went gator huntin', and Linda Sue goes home alone.

Give me a drunk over a meth addict or his connection ANY FUCKING DAY OF THE WEEK.

[jobycom]

5. We'd have people doing meth in bars, casinos, and outside almost every building.

You wouldn't be able to take five consecutive breaths without choking on meth fumes. Your car would fill up with meth at stoplights because meth users would dangle their meth out the window because they apparently can't stand the smell of it and would rather stink up the cars of non meth users.

Damn stuff would be even more places than it is now.

[Randall Flagg]

15. I think you may have missed the point.

She (nor I) want meth or crack legalized, we would rather see the efforts being waged against tobacco at least duplicated against those drugs.

[jobycom]

46. That was my point. The efforts against tobacco aren't doing much, either.

They might be forcing smokers outside, but I'm still choking on cigarette smoke every tenth breath or so. If they handled meth that way, it would be more places, not fewer.

[alp227]

6. Meth = bigger problem

Major contributor to violent criminal behavior, which is FAR worse than getting lung cancer (without harming anyone else very much)

[Zoeisright]

7. Wrong.

More than 440,000 deaths each year are directly caused by cigarette smoking in this country alone. And secondhand smoke kills more than 50,000. And if you think it's fun drowning in your own lungs, which is what dying from lung cancer is like, you need help.

All illegal drug use kills about 17,000. Do the math.

[salvorhardin]

9. No. The numbers don't show that to be the case.

See my post #8 above.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7469825&mesg_id=7469963

[alp227]

11. Still, don't some meth users go out and rob and assault people?

There's probably a study out there that shows so. Does the 17,000 who die from illegal drug use each year exclude their victims of robbery, assault, domestic violence, etc.?

[salvorhardin]

12. Of course

Of course some meth users commit violent crimes. But they're just 0.5% of the population. ~20% of the population smokes. I'd be willing to bet you that there are vastly more violent crimes committed by smokers, than meth users. And for that matter, since ~80% of the population doesn't smoke, I'd also wager that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes are committed by nonsmokers. How much money will you put up?

[Johonny]

38. Yah but are they committing crimes for cigs?

Unlikely. A lot of people smoke thus a lot of people die that were smokers. Many die due to complications cause by smoking. Meth kills you rather fast. It's vastly more destructive to your life. Nearly all smokers can continue to be productive members of society. Few tweekers and crackheads can be productive members of society. The addiction is the fast way into poverty and then death. So there really isn't any comparison to me.

[Fumesucker]

41. Make tobacco illegal on the same scale and level as meth and watch the violence soar..

It's the illegality that drives much of the violence, when was the last time you saw a couple of tobacco dealers shooting up each other's distribution networks?

And alcohol triggers more violence than all the illegal drugs put together, about 65% of American adults drink alcoholic beverages.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121277/drinking-habits-steady-amid-recession.aspx

[Codeine]

10. Utter nonsense.

Tweakers and crackheads are - despite media hysteria - a tiny percentage of the population, and far fewer deaths are attributable to either than smoking.

[slackmaster]

34. The user's health isn't the only issue - Meth users commit a disproportionate amount of crime

The San Diego County Sheriff did a study several years ago in which they drug-tested every person who was booked into San Diego County jails. About 70% of them tested positive for amphetamines. (And about 90% were positive for alcohol.)

[Fumesucker]

43. Well by that metric we should have a war on alcohol..

Even before one on meth..

[slackmaster]

45. I'd rather hang out with drunks or even junkies than meth heads any day

Meth heads tend to get mean. Junkies just rip you off.

[Fumesucker]

54. And drunks of course are always so peaceful..

Mean drunk.

Barrroom brawl.

Bar fight.

Don't listen to him, it's the liquor talking.

Funny how there are so many English phrases to describe violent drunks when they are always so peaceful.

[slackmaster]

55. Most people, even ones who drink a lot, never get mean when they drink

Getting mean while drinking is a sure sign that a person shouldn't drink.

[Fumesucker]

57. Talk to any cop..

Combative drunks are common as dirt.

[slackmaster]

58. Cops see every kind of combative person

Say what you will, meth is a bad drug and meth heads are assholes.

[Fumesucker]

67. Say what you will, alcohol is a bad drug and drunks are assholes..

I have personal reasons for despising drunks and barflies.

[cherokeeprogressive]

62. Ask a cop who they'd RATHER deal with. I wonder what your experience is with meth and its addicts.

Anyone who's been around them as often and as long as I have would trade ten drunks for one single tweaker going through a little meth psychosis.

[vadawg]

65. +10, tweakers are far worse than drunks, both can be violent but the tweaker is a more dangerous

creature, i hate havig to deal with the meth heads...

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. I grew up in L.A. County, and now live in San Bernardino County.

Meth addiction here and where I grew up is rampant. It's easier to find a twenty-something who hasn't tried Coca-Cola here in SB County than it is to find one who hasn't snorted a line or two, poured a little on a bonghit, or mixed some with their Red Bull.

[Fumesucker]

66. I've known a few..

Given that I live in the quasi-rural South it's unlikely I wouldn't. In fact we had a meth lab explode within earshot of our home in the last year, something else that would not happen but for the drug war.

For personal reasons I have no intention of discussing I dislike drunks more than tweakers myself..

And alcohol also can bring on psychosis.

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. What are you saying? That meth labs wouldn't blow up if not for the drug war, or that they wouldn't

exist?

It doesn't matter, because on both counts, you could not be more wrong.

Does it matter to you that there is at least one law enforcement person here on this thread who has stated that he'd MUCH rather be confronted by a drunk than by a tweaker?

[Fumesucker]

76. There are very few moonshine stills these days..

They were ubiquitous during alcohol Prohibition.

Funny how that works.

Illegal stills are quite dangerous, not as much so as a meth lab but they are a definite explosion and fire hazard.

And I'd be willing to bet that the law enforcement officer also drinks alcohol and is hence biased, of course he's going to disparage the ill effects of the drug he and his fellow officers personally enjoy, that's the way humans roll.

I figured out a long time ago that it is basically impossible for most Americans to envision a world without the drug war and to discuss the issues rationally.

The single most common preventable birth defect in America today is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and yet you hear far more about the effect of "drugs" on fetuses than you do alcohol.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/brain/fas.html

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. Yeah, very few moonshine stills... Could it be because I can get my whiskey at the Circle K?

So you've known a few tweakers and have your own personal reasons for hating drunks. I get that. But try living in a county where they have to keep over the counter cold medicine BEHIND the counter because it's used to make meth. Try living in a county where one person was busted for visiting 57 Rite-Aids, CVS's, and Walgreen's in a SINGLE night so as to buy enough cold medicine to make meth without alarming anyone.

How many drunks do you know who wouldn't think twice about taking a purse from a locked car in order to get a few lines? How many drunks do you know who go into county jail to serve sentences with alcohol hidden in their assholes so they can sell shots after lights out? Or trade a newborn baby for enough meth to get them through the night? Those are ALL common occurrences where meth use is epidemic.

Scientists have experimented with monkeys to see if they'd rather have meth than food. The monkeys regularly die of starvation because the meth is more important to them than their next meal.

I'm sorry, you're misguided and flat out wrong in your analysis of the difference between meth addiction and alcoholism.

[slackmaster]

69. Chronic amphetamine abuse can cause permanent behavioral and cognitive changes

Including psychosis.

[Fumesucker]

71. As can alchol abuse..

[HuckleB]

74. Drunks are common, but, as the poster noted, most of them are not combative.

Nor do cops deal with most drunks.

[HuckleB]

75. True.

Does that mean it's time to bring back prohibition?

[HuckleB]

72. Yet crime has been on the wane for 20 some years...

... despite the increase in meth use.

Hmmmmmmm.

[dysfunctional press]

13. "She hasn't had a cigarette in twenty years."..but when's the last time she did meth?

[Blue-Jay]

16. Cool story, bro.

http://push.ca/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/snownews.News+09/cool_5F00_story.jpg

Crack = cigs!

[Warren DeMontague]

23. What's worse? Incorrect apostrophe use.

Way fucking worse than meth and smoking combined.

[uppityperson]

29. My 85 yr old father said today that if Meth producers lobbied as much as tobacco growers do,

meth would be legal.

He hasn't had a cigarette in 28 yrs.

He's a life long Dem.

And the full quote included not comparing apples and oranges since they are bad in different ways and both should be illegal.

"Nazis" does not include an apostrophe, unless it is possessive. "Nazi's smoke", ie the smoke of nazis is one thing, but "smoking nazis" does not need an apostrophe as that "nazis" is simply plural.

[joeybee12]

35. Stop using Nasi's (incorrectly, should be Nazis) to describe people who are sane,

rational, and not addicted like you.

[harkadog]

42. It is a correct term to use

It refers to people like you who are intolerant of other people's lifestyles.

[Codeine]

48. Yeah, because banning smoking in bars

is totally the intellectual, legal, and moral equivalent of six million Jews to the ovens.

Think before you type, man.

[harkadog]

53. I'm sure you know the term "Nazi" or "fascist"

is used generically in modern communications to indicate intolerance and repression of all sorts. In almost all those uses, including everyday on DU in hundreds of posts, there is no equivalence to the activities of the historical Nazi regime. But that is how it used now. But you know that and just wanted to be petty. The term was correct as used by the poster. The anti-smoking nuts are Nazis because they are intolerant and want to repress other peoples lifestyles and choices. They are dangerous people.

[Soylent Brice]

36. i think we should legalize human sacrifice too.

:popcorn:

[ThomWV]

39. We did that a long time ago - ever hear of the National Guard?

[Soylent Brice]

44. indeed. n/t

[devilgrrl]

64. delete

...

[bertman]

49. Randall, if you'd like to get an accurate appraisal of the drug use situation and the

effects of our War on Drugs, I suggest a short, but very informative read: Drugs: America's Holy War by Arthur Benavie, Professor Emeritus of Economics at UNC-Chapel Hill.

Every nation in the world that has decriminalized drug use, even for hard drugs, has seen an immediate decrease in crime (violent and personal property), as well as a reduction of AIDS and other drug-related illnesses.

We have been conditioned to think that the drugs make people violent when, in fact, it's the turf wars that promote the most violence.

Interesting screen name. Why would you want to identify yourself with Satan?

[ismnotwasm]

50. There is some interesting history behind meth

I don't know who old you are, but remember Quaalude's? They went after the manufacturers everywhere and It worked, Quaalude's were, I'll call it controlled-- So they tried the same shit with meth.

Dumbasses. Most of the raw materials for Meth is comes through Mexico now, I used to have a very good summary, but I can't find it, so I'll substitute this;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/interviews/suo.html

I just reread The Stand. Your user name is freaking me out, man.

Which is worse? In lives or quality of lives or the effect on innocent lives?

[Maru Kitteh]

52. Smoking kills way more people, and why trot out your mommy to make your dig?

That's pretty chicken shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. I think that meth might actually be illegal and they send people to prison over it.

That sort of implies that they put more effort into reducing its usage.

[HuckleB]

73. +1

Heck, we can't even purchase pseudoephedrine without a prescription in Oregon, all in the name of fighting meth.