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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:42 AM
Original message
Why do men use prostitutes?
Very interesting article from the Guardian. Made me wonder if any any DUers would be brave enough to talk about their experiences with prostitution, on either side of the transaction. (That leaves me out of the discussion as anything but an interested observer.) Have you used a prostitute? Or been a prostitute? Or known someone who used prostitutes or was one? Do the men in this article sound familiar?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

...


The men didn't fall into obvious stereotypes. They were aged between 18 and 70 years old; they were white, black, Asian, eastern European; most were employed and many were ­educated beyond school level. In the main they were presentable, polite, with average-to-good social skills. Many were husbands and boyfriends; just over half were either married or in a relationship with a woman.

Research published in 2005 found that the numbers of men who pay for sex had doubled in a decade. The ­authors attributed this rise to "a greater acceptability of commercial sexual contact", yet many of our ­interviewees told us that they felt ­intense guilt and shame about paying for sex. "I'm not satisfied in my mind" was how one described his feelings after paying for sex. Another told me that he felt "disappointed – what a waste of money", "lonely still" and "guilty about my relationship with my wife". In fact, many of the men were a mass of contradictions. Despite finding their experiences "unfulfilling, empty, terrible", they continued to visit prostitutes.

I interviewed 12 of the men, and found it a fascinating experience. One told me about his experience of childhood cruelty and neglect and linked this to his inability to form close ­relationships with anyone, particularly women. Alex admitted sex with ­prostitutes made him feel empty, but he had no idea how to get to know women "through the usual routes". When I asked him about his feelings ­towards the women he buys he said that on the one hand, he wants ­prostitutes to get to know and like him and, on the other, he is "not under ­delusions" that the encounters are anything like a real relationship.

"I want my ideal prostitute not to behave like one," he said, "to role-play to be a pretend girlfriend, a casual date, not business-like or mechanical. To a third person it looks like we're in love."

...

...Darren was young, good-looking and bright; I asked him how often he thought the women he paid enjoyed the sex. "I don't want them to get any pleasure," he told me. "I am paying for it and it is her job to give me pleasure. If she enjoys it I would feel cheated." I asked if he felt prostitutes were different to other women. "The fact that they're prepared to do that job where others won't, even when they're skint, means there's some capability inside them that permits them to do it and not be disgusted," he said. He seemed full of a festering, potentially explosive misogyny.

When asked what would end ­prostitution, one interviewee laughed and said, "Kill all the girls." Paul told me that it would take "all the men to be locked up". But most of them told the researchers that they would be ­easily deterred if the current laws were implemented. Fines, public ­exposure, employers being informed, being issued with an Asbo or the risk of a criminal record would stop most of the men from continuing to pay for sex. Discovering the women were ­trafficked, pimped or otherwise coerced would appear not to be so ­effective. Almost half said they ­believed that most women in prostitution are victims of pimps ("the pimp does the ­psychological raping of the woman," explained one). But they still continued to visit them.

An upcoming new law will make it illegal for men to pay for sex with a trafficked or pimped woman – and a punter's ignorance of a woman's ­circumstances will be no defence. Critics have suggested that this is ­unfair, that a man can't possibly know whether a woman is being exploited. Our interviews challenged this ­notion. The men knew, to some extent, about abuse and coercion in prostitution – they weren't operating under the ­convenient illusion that women enter the trade because they love sex. More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked.

...
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. ask Paul Simon
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The late senator from Illinois used prostitutes?
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
66. !
:rofl:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. It's often said that men don't pay prostitutes for sex
They pay prostitutes to go away after sex.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Bingo..
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 10:55 AM by SoCalDem
Many men don't want the relationship part, because it requires them to GIVE...of themselves. They prefer to get out the wallet.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I guess by "give" you mean lots of talking.*shudders* . nt
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Probably:)
and recognizing that a relationship also means that she will want to know that you are doing and where you are :)
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Uh,huh. There are lots of different kinds of people.
Some guys don't like to be on a leash. Women who are determined to be involved with such a guy, would do well to learn that letting him sleep with other women will gain them a lot of loyalty and adoration. Though, women who are that strong and that smart are not common. A guy who finds one better be smart enough to keep her happy. I much prefer my partner to a ball-and-chain. Time for me to go do the dishes. She hates doing dishes, so I try to make sure she doesn't have to do them.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. "...letting him sleep with other women will gain them..."
STDs & lots of tears.. she needs to find a different man :) not ALL men are "hound-dogs":)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. She probably has a few other men on the side.
That's how those things usually work.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. If so, I'm even more glad I am now an "old woman"
Dating must be even more stressful & sad now, than I remember it:(
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Perhaps...
or perhaps there just are more people willing to be honest about the fact that they do not intend to be monogamous. It's good that at least some are honest about it.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #60
217. Monogamy with the right partner is like winning a pass for unlimited massages
with frequent happy endings. :)

DH and I have been married for almost 20 years and we are even more affectionate now than we were as newlyweds. I have no need to wonder how committed my partner is, or how much he loves me. I will never have to feel like I am alone in the world, or on my own.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
82. Several counties in Nevada have legal prostitution
It is highly regulated and the women who word as legal prostitutes are examined and cultured weekly for the presence of STD's. Condoms are strictly required for any activity during which body fluids will be exchanged. In the years since prostitution was legalized there has never been one case of a legal prostitute in Nevada converting to HIV status. Not all men are hound-dogs but a safe, regulated industry to meet the needs of those who are seems a good idea.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #82
229. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
135. Like I said, there are lots of different kinds of people.
She isn't the jealous type. The kind of guy she wants, she gets. I don't fight about her with dumb shit, most of the time she gets what she wants. I go out of my way to make her life easier and enjoyable, I figure that is fair since she has done the same for me. She says she feels cherished.
I know lots of married people who are more typical, and unhappy. I also know quite a few guys who cheat. Women actually cheat a lot more often than guys. But women are a lot better at concealing it.
My spouse wouldn't have to conceal it. It wouldn't bother me as long as she wasn't seeing shit heads.

Most people are jealous, it's probably either an evolutionary thing or a Judeo-christian thing, or both. I follow my own path.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Yes indeed!
Before my first marriage in 1970, my wife made it abundantly clear to me when we started dating that as much as she liked me, she was promiscuous and wasn’t about to put a leash on herself for me. She said she’d always tell me what she was doing, and that if I really wanted to be her primary I’d have to be able to deal with that. I accepted the challenge, and it was one of the best things I ever did. I ended up really liking some of the men she had relationships with.

Although the marriage only lasted 7 years, I learned more about myself and the nature of love than I ever dreamed possible. Although we both still had issues to deal with, sexual jealousy wasn’t one of them, and hasn’t been since then. That has sure taken a lot of the “sturm und drang” out of my subsequent relationships.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #139
162. That makes sense.
There are things I could currently get divorced over. But sex is not one of them.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #135
219. I don't believe that.
Women actually cheat a lot more often than guys.


If you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn up for sale…

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. No. Sex and love are two different things.
Wanting one does not mean one wants the other, or at least from the same person.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Never said they did
:)
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. I wish every post with "They think", "They prefer", "They want"
could be auto-deleted.

I've never known a place in which people express so much liberty in expressing the views, feelings and motivations of others.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:17 PM
Original message
:)
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
122. I admit.
It's fun telling you what women think.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. It is interesting that you replied to her for doing it....
but say nothing to the many guys doing it.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. The title of the OP is "why do men use prostitutes?"
The men posting aren't engaging in wholesale speculation.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
251. or maybe they just want sex.
why people think sex and relationships have to go together is beyond me.
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's what Frank Sinatra always said nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Bingo n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. correct. they see these human beings as no more than a plastic doll.
this little joke a man will often say leaves them feeling oh what? entitled, superior what? hire a prostitute so person goes away after sex. i mean there is certainly a pat on the back to men, with this cute little joke

really

how cute is it. or merely pathetic.

people are things to be used.....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. These threads are so depressing.
I'm so glad to know that all these 'experts' can only speak for themselves... and their attempts to protray their attitudes as universal is merely an attempt to seek validation... but sometimes it is very hard to keep that in mind.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
178. Yeah, and people who hire plumbers see them as no more than a toolbox.
really

how cute is it. or merely pathetic.

people are things to be used.....
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #178
218. When families are destroyed by contaminated channel-locks, your point will be valid.
When plumbers are debased by society and called dirty, your point will be valid.

When plumbers are frequently murdered because the pervs who murder them believe they won't be missed... your point will be valid

When "plumber" becomes a word widely used in popular culture to insult men and imply they are mindless objects only used for sex.... your point will be valid.

I could probably do 50 of these but it's almost time to go home and I'll just have to assume you're bright enough to get the point.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #218
223. Thank you. (nt)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #218
225. That's the kind of circular reasoning that keeps marijuana illegal.
Why is it shunned by society? Because it destroys lives.
Why does it destroy lives? Because it is shunned by society.

(As an aside, when single people hire prostitutes, no family is destroyed.)
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #225
237. Is it also circular reasoning to ask why many prostitutes get abused or even murdered?
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #237
259. Do you sincerely believe that it being illegal DOESN'T make such things more likely to happen? -nt
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #218
236. Well done, Maru Kitteh. Well done.
:applause:
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
231. You're projecting that's what every man who uses prostitutes says
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 09:38 PM by ProudToBeBlueInRhody
Broad brush, requires little thought.....
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
74. While it's funny to say that, the sad fact of the matter is...
... you won't get a discount rate if you tell her she can hang around and talk afterwards.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
112. Quite true and not acknowledged often.
In fact, I'd say there are far more customers who tend to try and extend the time and conversation than workers.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. "You gotta lot of talent, but you fail to see: you paid for yours; got mine for free."
Jungle Bros.

Do you propose continuing or revising the current prohibitionist schemes?

I am struck by the rather large number of women who hang around "stage left," at rock concerts, in Hollywood, at arenas, at pro golf events, etc., who play groupie. Are they also making a prostitute's exchange? Money, prestige, gossip fodder in return for a quick poke? As one business woman said to me at a club in Austin: "I can't get enough of musicians, the stinkier the better."
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
172. Where were these groupies when I was playing?
Knew I should have played guitar instead of keyboards.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. Rick Wakeman, is that you?
:hide:
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #174
269. I love Wakeman! A true genius talent.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #172
221. Or drums! (nt)
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. LOL! Good luck getting a guy on DU to admit to using a prostitute!
smh
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Between 1967 and 1970 I fucked every prostitute in Pleiku Provence, Viet Nam
At an average cost of about $3.75 a crack - no pun intended.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. Damn! That's pretty cost effective.
I would expect you sometimes miss the good old days.
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
79. Oh, please, you expect us to believe that?
It's obvious that pun was fully intended. ;-)
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
104. My dad was in Vietnam (Army infantry) same time as you. Some serious questions:
1. Though you consider a pun like "$3.75 a crack - no pun intended" funny, that wasn't a lot of money for a valued service even in 1969-70. Did you ever offer to pay more? Or were the women you fucked worth only $3.75 to you in both real and monetary terms?
2. You obviously were a much younger guy then, so if you didn't offer to pay more (though you had the money to do so for a valuable service), how did you think about those women, honestly?
3. Did you at that time, or do you now, feel you exploited those you paid $3.75 for a fuck? Or did you feel you were raising their standard of living? Helping them out? Doing them a favor? Something else?

I promise you: I'm not slapping you around. I really am interested, because I pay the Calabrian guy who trims my hedges in 90+ degree summer heat CHF 50 per hour. His hedge trimming is a skill I don't have and which my garden wouldn't reflect without his services, and my money is something he wouldn't have if it were not for him having a skill I value and respect. Exploitation and disrespect are not part of this equation. In retrospect, and honest analysis, were exploitation and/or disrespect any part of you screwing every prostitute in Pleiku Provence?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #104
119. In 1969, US minimum wage was about $1.50
I don't know what enlisted pay was in those days, but today it's about comparable to minimum wage.

Is 2 1/2 hours pay exploitive? Would she have been better off if men had refused her services? I dunno.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
138. I dunno, either. That's why I asked.
Given the variety of views on sex work, I think it's a valid question.

And, for the record, I fully support sex work between adults where there is full, informed consent and choice. However, if personal starvation or the starvation of one's family is the other "choice," I don't think that's a genuine choice to begin with.

But I'd like to hear all perspectives.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #138
147. It sounds like I'm exactly in line with your thinking on this.
I can see why some women get depressed by certain men's responses here. Some seem so defensive about prostitution in theory that they refuse to look at prostitution in practice in most of the world, where the prostitutes are not in the profession of their own free will, but because they were captured or sold or otherwise coerced. That's a reality of prostitution that just takes all the fun out of it for some men. They'd much rather think about the elemental needs driving the consumer side of the commerce.

On the other side, you have people who would rather the subject of prostitution never rear its ugly head in a forum for progressives. I don't understand why not. It seems a ripe area to consider questions of freedom, capitalism and human rights.
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #147
265. That's true, but remember that what you're talking about is not prostitution.
It's sex slavery. Everyone agrees this is wrong. It is also not the same as prostitution in and of itself. Yes, they often go hand in hand, and that is largely due to the illegality of prostitution to begin with. But prostitution in the classic sense is by definition NOT sex slavery, because there is payment involved.

In general, I hate questions like the one posed in the OP. "Why do men use prostitutes? Why do men cheat? Why do powerful men cheat?" Blah blah blah. It doesn't matter if it's Bill Clinton or your next door neighbor, PEOPLE all cheat for the same reason - because monogamy isn't natural. If it was, then no one would be tempted to cheat.

Monogamy is a gesture, kind of like celibacy in the priesthood. It can be a beautiful thing if people love each other and they mean it. Hell, I do it. But I'm fully aware that there's nothing natural about it.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #104
120. Excellent questions.
Thank you for treating this subject respectfully and intelligently. I appreciate it.

:toast:
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #104
156. I think it has to with the situation.
My dad is a combat Vietnam Vet and he's admitted to me that he used drugs and bought hookers. So did a lot of guys who it never would even occurred to in the states.

He said when you feel like you could be killed at any moment, it doesn't matter anymore. He also said that soldiers had a love/hate relationship with Vietnamese civilians. He said it's depressing in retrospect because it wasn't fun, it was release of pressure and you couldn't even do it by yourself. Another soldier had to be in the room or on the another side of the curtain in case she stabbed you or there were guys hiding in the other room.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
179. No pun was intended
In fact that was quite a bit to pay for the places I was at. Generally speaking the price - which grew enormously as the years passed - but actually I used their services less and less too, the price was $2. And no, of course I never offered to pay more. I don't offer to pay more when I find a sale at a store either. So when I said it averaged out to about $3.75 a crack maybe it would have pleased you more if I had found a more artful way to say it - but that was about the average cost.

Didn't feel like I was exploiting anyone at all. I thought I was providing work for someone in their chosen profession.

I promises you you are not capable of slapping me around and I really don't care how you treat your hired help. I was relating what I did almost 40 years ago as not much more than a teenager - and doing so with a fair degree of accuracy. That is all I intended.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #104
238. The dollar was very valuable compared to Vietnamese currency, the country was very disrupted by war,
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 10:26 PM by Hekate
... a lot of Vietnamese were very poor, women in dire straits would look on the money as a good thing, or being used as a permanent mistress as a good exchange.... And no doubt some young girls were being trafficked.

It's a commonality of wartime in any time zone. It certainly happened in postwar Europe for awhile.

And as someone else pointed out, the minimum wage in the US itself was only $1.50 an hour (although I distinctly remember being paid $1.35/hour to be a sales clerk the same years). I'm sure military men were not paid by the hour, either.

Hekate

Edited to add: A lot of teenaged Americans died there, and youngsters just out of their teens. Some were taking comfort where they could, some had become brutalized... Many bad things happened in Vietnam, as in all wars, both to the soldiers and to the civilians.

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #104
241. seems like prices
would be driven by local economic conditions much like any other transaction.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #104
279. CHF 50 / hour?
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 02:55 AM by Cessna Invesco Palin
Just to be clear, so that my head doesn't explode, we are talking about Swiss francs here, right? That's more than I make in the US as a senior engineer. Shit, that's way more than I'd make in Switzerland in the same position. Where the hell do I sign up? I'm pretty good with gardening and I like being outside.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #279
281. Yes.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:15 AM by Heidi
He used to charge CHF 35 per hour when he was employed by a local botanical garden and doing landscape gardening on his own time; when he started his own landscape gardening business, his price went up to CHF 50 per hour. (But you have to remember, he has to pay for his whole family's mandatory health insurance out of that and the Swiss equivalent of Social Security, as well liability insurance and other related business expenses.)

ETA: We have no complaints whatsoever about paying this guy for his time, expertise -- and perhaps more importantly, his demeanor while he's working. A good example is his patience with our cat, my mother-in-law's three cats and my sister-in-law's two cats, all of whom congregate around Francesco when he's trying to work. :)
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #281
282. OK, I'd definitely charge more for cats in an engineering position.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:35 AM by Cessna Invesco Palin
Have you ever seen kittehs try to write code?

Oh wait - that's Perl.

Or maybe prrl.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #282
283. My little brother is a mechanical engineer!
Here's a video he and I very much enjoy. :D
An Engineer's Guide to Cats
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #283
285. Priceless. Thank you. n/t
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Glorfindel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
136. If I remember correctly, they cost about $5.00 in Nha Trang
I guess that's the rate difference between rural and urban areas (I was there Dec 66 to Dec 67). :hi:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #136
180. You could have caught exactly the same diseases in Pleiku for two bucks.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
36. I have
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:40 AM by Recursion
I don't think it's particularly shameful. It was a respectful, professional transaction legal in the jurisdiction I was in. I don't like the phrase "using a prostitute", personally, but it seems pretty well embedded in the language.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
61. How should one put it?
Pay for a prostitute, maybe? Or buy her services?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. I would say "hire"
I mean, I don't "use an electrician".
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I guess it would depend what you paid one.
;-)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. There is no comparison between an electrician and a prostitute.
There is no other 'job' for which you can hire another person which requires the level of... whatever it is... that acting as a prostitute does.

"Use" is by far the most appropriate word, IMO.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
98. self delete
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 01:19 PM by closeupready
self delete
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. I used 'use' because it was the title of the Guardian article.
I am sincere in saying that I don't hold prostitution to be inherently wrong or evil. It's the trafficking that goes on behind the market that seems evil to me. But the basic transaction, as I said several times in this thread, seems unproblematic to me if it's mutually consensual.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Okay, I see.
n/t
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #103
109. It's like drugs: so many of the problems come from the illegality NT
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. It's also like capitalism.
So many of the problems do come from the fact that money is involved.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #116
266. That makes sense. And, again, the solution is socialism.
i.e., the goods should be shared freely.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
252. a surgeon is far more intimate
than a prostitute.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #252
261. Butbutbutbut only SEX is icky! Blood & gore ISN'T!
:crazy:
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
154. "Contract" would work. My favorite is "institute."
Institute the prostitute. :)

--imm
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OswegoAtheist Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
190. I used a prostitute twice in Japan
It was back when I was young and stupid. The first girl was a Filipino from the bars outside of Gate 2 St. near Kadena; my friends at the time were spending their paychecks there, and I finally went along with them one night. Long story short, it ended up being more of a "fitting in" thing than a sex thing.

The second time was in Tokyo with a Japanese girl. It cost me about a grand to find a Japanese prostitute who did the Girlfriend Experience with American GIs overnight. She made me dinner, bathed me, etc.

I say "used" in the subject because I realize now that was exactly what I did in the most horrible sense of the word. If I knew then what I know now, I never would have hired them.

Oswego "although it was a very good dinner" Atheist
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #190
200. "Used"? You mean you paid with a bad check?
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 06:09 PM by lumberjack_jeff
Are you really confident that the woman you gave about a months salary to was exploited? Shouldn't she be the judge of that?

You might regret it, but your story gives me no compelling reason why you should feel guilt.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #190
213. Thank you for this post. (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
257. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
260. I live in a place where it's legal, and I went when I was single, therefore no problem admitting it.
Now I'm married and don't, for the exact same reason I don't boink the neighbor. Any other question?
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. The have to perform and they can't talk back else they loose customers
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
75. I believe Eliot Spitzer's talked back.
He wanted to go condomless and she flat out told him no. It was a business transaction and that particular customer turned out not to be right.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #75
177. Now that reminds me, once again, about those black socks...
skinny, hairless, pale white legs and black socks...now THERE'S an image!
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. In general, to relieve sexual energy.
Not rocket science.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. You can do that without using a prostitute.
:think:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. But why would you if one were available?
Presuming of course that the expense was not overly burdomsom.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. That's why I asked the questioner if he was still a virgin - someone who hasn't had intercourse
can't possibly understand why masturbation is simply no substitute whatsoever for intercourse.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Cute.
:hi:

My actual guess about you is that you're very, very young. If you're my age, you could grow up a little.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. I've always kind of been partial to calling myself up on the phone and asking myself out.
Well, one thing about it, you're always around! Yeah, I know. Yeah, you ask yourself out, you know. Some class joint somewhere. The Burrito King or something. You know... Well, I ain't cheap, you know. Take yourself out for a couple of drinks maybe, you know. Then you'll be... some provocative conversation on the way home. And park in front of the house, you know, and you... Oh yeah, you´re smooth with it... you know, you put a little nice music on. Maybe you put on like... you know... like shopping music, something that's not too interruptive, you know. And then, you know, and eh... slide over real nice, you know, say, 'Oh, I think you have something in your eye'. Eh-heh-heh. Well, maybe it's not that romantic with you, but Christ, I... you know! It ain't... you know... Take myself up to the porch, and take myself inside. Oh, maybe... I make a little something, a brandy snifter or something. Would you like to listen to some of my back records. I got something here... Well, usually about 2.30 in the morning you've ended up taking advantage of yourself and... there ain't no way around that, you know. Yeah, making the scene with a magazine, there ain't no way around... I'll confess, you know, I'm no different, you know. I'm not weird about it or anything. I don't tie myself up first, I just... you know. I just kind of... spend a little time with myself.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
242. LOL -- But do you still respect yourself in the morning?
:rofl:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. Stuff like this, perhaps?
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:54 AM by redqueen
An upcoming new law will make it illegal for men to pay for sex with a trafficked or pimped woman – and a punter's ignorance of a woman's ­circumstances will be no defence. Critics have suggested that this is ­unfair, that a man can't possibly know whether a woman is being exploited. Our interviews challenged this ­notion. The men knew, to some extent, about abuse and coercion in prostitution – they weren't operating under the ­convenient illusion that women enter the trade because they love sex. More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked.

More than one third said they thought the prostitutes they visited had been trafficked to London from another country, and a small number said they suspected that they had ­encountered a trafficking victim based on the woman's inability to speak the local language or on how young or vulnerable they appeared. "I could tell she was new to the country," said one man. "To be new in a country and be a prostitute – it can't be a choice . . . She looked troubled."

Another said that he had "seen women with bruises, cuts and eastern European accents in locations where lots of trafficked women and girls are". One man suspected that an African woman he had met was ­trafficked ­because "she was frightened and ­nervous. She told me she had been tricked. I had sex with her and she seemed fine with the sex. She asked me to help her, but I said there was little I could do. She might have been lying to me."



:shrug:
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Yes.
Thank you. :toast:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
245. This is why so much of the transaction seems to be NOT between consenting adults, but exploitation
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 10:24 PM by Hekate
... at least to me, reading about the interviews.

"She asked me to help her... She might have been lying to me."

Shit.

Hekate

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. First, the question was, why do men use prostitutes, not, is masturbation preferable
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:21 AM by closeupready
to using prostitutes.

Second, I presume you have lost your virginity, correct? If so, do you enjoy sexual intercourse? And if so, how can you say that masturbation is even in the same ballpark as actual intercourse? :crazy: :D
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Sexual intercourse with a prostitute is in the same ballpark as SI with someone who is actually
interested in you? I honestly don't know. I've had sex with women I wasn't fully interested in, but that's not quite in the same ballpark as sex with women I am interested in.

Masturbation will do in a pinch. Try it sometime. ;-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. *shrug* I'm with Dan Savage on this
There are misogynistic creeps who pay for sex, and misogynistic creeps who don't. And non-misogynistic non-creeps who do and don't too.

Prostitution will continue to be exploitative for as long as it's illegal. How many trafficked sex workers are there in the legal brothels in Nevada, for instance?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. I don't find anything inherently wrong with prostitution that is mutually consensual.
In theory, prostitution is not an inherently bad or evil idea. In practice it's another matter.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. Precisely. (nt)
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:56 AM by redqueen
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
94. Isn't "prostitution" by definition consensual?
Whether the participants motivations are good, or the transaction fair, is a different question.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #94
107. Not when the prostitute has been captured and traded like a piece of meat
Not when she's underage. Theoretically it's consensual, but practically it often isn't purely.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #107
123. That's slavery.
It's like calling carjacking a transaction.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. You're beginning to sound a little naive.
People buy stolen goods all the time, knowing they're buying stolen goods. They're not techically stealing because they're paying for it. But they know that what they're doing by paying for it is encouraging theft.

That's the comparison to make, not "carjacking."
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dustbunnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #107
146. Those are examples of kidnapping and rape, not prostitution. n/t
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. How much of the world's prostitution is made possible through kidnapping or slavery?
Do you know?
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dustbunnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. Lots of it I presume.

Even in places where prostitution is legal, there will always be room for the kind made possible through slavery and kidnapping simply because those involved can offer a cheaper "product" and of course, keep all the profit for themselves. Making prostitution legal hasn't changed that. There is info and numbers on that available out there. I had some of it bookmarked after another discussion like this, but cleaned it out a few months ago. Basically the gist of it was that even in the netherlands, and nevada, illegal slave prostitution flourishes because of those two reasons. It makes perfect business sense for organized crime gangs.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #149
206. That is not prostitution.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #206
224. You think the lines are so firmly drawn
between prostitution in which the services are rendered by willing and unwilling servants? Do you think the johns who buy those services aren't expecting the same services?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #94
108. No.
And I honestly can't believe you're asking that question, even.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #108
126. It's a transaction.
Whether the circumstances which led the participants there are fair, just, or understandable is a different question.

I've never heard of a non-consensual transaction. Exploitive and unfair? Perhaps. Non-consensual? No.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. Read this part again:
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #126
131. Was slavery consensual?
Not getting into slavery, but the actual day-to-day reality of slavery? By your definition it is. In fact, coerced consent is not real consent, much as it might look like it.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. No, it wasn't.
Did purchasing cotton socks in 1850 fit the definition of theft?

The cotton was harvested by slaves, and the yarn was woven by exploited children. Those facts don't make the retail transaction non-consensual.

The concept of consent when money changes hands is unambiguous.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #133
142. It's totally ambiguous.
It's one of the conditions of modern life to try to know as much about our transactions so we make choices that don't encourage evil. Some would argue that spending a dime at WalMart encourages evil (like the labor practices and environmental degradation in China). If you don't want to think about that, that's your choice, but it doesn't absolve you of your real guilt in making exploitation of humans and the environment possible--and profitable for those who exploit directly.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. It's certainly less ambiguous than when the terms of the transaction are hidden.
Or, as one DU'er put it some time ago; "I think it's rape when a man tells you he loves you just to get in your pants."
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #145
148. You're not going to argue that prostitution is never a form of rape, are you?
Can we agree that exploiting underage girls is essentially wrong, if not evil--and that means whether you're profiting from monetarily or sexually? I think that's probably not controversial between us, right? Or do you think a 13-year-old prostitute consents to the transaction?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #148
168. Kids can't enter enforcable contracts.
For purposes of the discussion, "13 year old prostitute" is analagous to "13 year old car salesman". Neither could give informed consent to carry out their end of the transaction. In a sense, arguably, there is no such thing.

So yes, sex with kids is wrong. Transactions with them is also wrong. :eyes:

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. So you concede that consent in prostitution (where there are a lot of kids at work)
(unlike car sales) is a gray area. That's all I want to know.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. child rape != prostitution
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 04:13 PM by lumberjack_jeff
It's not a gray area at all. Kids can't consent to sex, paid or otherwise.

Saying that prostitution isn't necessarily consensual is like saying that the industry of auto sales isn't necessarily consensual by using the carjacker as an example.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #170
182. Does every underaged prostitute automatically become a consenting adult on her 18th birthday?
Legally, of course, they all do. We all do. But morally, is the legal difference sufficient to make a real difference in a person's ability to consent to sell his or her body to a stranger? In other words, what is the difference in the quality of a person's consent the day before her 18th birthday as compared to the day after?

It may seem like I'm asking a hair-splitting kind of question here, but I'm trying to get at the heart of the moral issue that your previous posts on that transaction seem to gloss over, and I'm trying to be true to reality rather than merely hypothetical. I think this transaction is more problematic on a very fundamental level, because gender politics and capitalist economics--not to mention legality--are both involved. When you say that the transaction is at heart mutually consensual, it seems to me you're ignoring the conditions that make prostitution a "choice" for a profession. Does the prostitute consent to each trick she turns? I'm sure there are many times when prostitutes are eager to turn tricks because they mean money--usually. But how many times does it also mean getting battered, or getting caught, or getting stiffed? How much of her consent is due to needing money to pay her pimp or to buy drugs?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:47 PM
Original message
Yes. People, male or female, become consenting adults at age 18.
Whether the transactions they then decide to make are legal doesn't change the consensual nature.

Having sex to avoid a beating is not prostitution, it's rape.

I reject the idea that bad decisions are necessarily non-consensual.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
193. Again, you seem to have a naive idea about prostitution.
It's not a sales position.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. I'm not naive about circumstances which compel some people to choose it as a job.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 06:02 PM by lumberjack_jeff
But for the most part, it is a choice, even if among limited options.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. Only if your definition of "sex" means exclusively the orgasm part.
Certainly the notion of being with an actual person, the experience of being in contact with something bigger than your own hand, is part of sex too. This is why blow up dolls and New Jersey robots are all doomed to failure outside a tiny niche market segment. The mind is and remains the most important sex organ. (I was gonna say "the biggest sex organ" but I didn't want anyone spamming up this thread with inappropriate pictures)
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #80
97. There may be an orientation
that needs a living human body for sex, regardless of the depth or feeling for the person, the human being who has the body they're having sex with. Personally, I prefer having sex with a person I have feelings for who has feelings for me. I'm not knocking sex with someone one doesn't have feelings for. I don't think it's inherently bad. But I think what some of you men arguing that there's "no comparison" between sex with a partner (paid-for or not) and masturbation aren't taking into consideration that for some men, sex with a partner you don't care about really is the same as or not as good as masturbation. Because, as you say, the brain is the most important sex organ. It's not necessarily what you do with that other organ that's going to determine the qualithy of the sex.

In fact, many of those people who think it's what you do with that other organ--where it goes when you're discharging your sexual energy--are said to be thinking with their penises. And that's not a compliment.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #97
191. BurtWorm puts it pretty well, I think.
It's good to know that not all men are pigs!
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #191
202. What a nice thing to have said about you!
Thank you so much!

:blush:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #202
208. Yup. I know how you feel. It gives me a warm feeling inside...
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 08:14 PM by lumberjack_jeff
... whenever someone uses my example to observe with surprise that it would appear that not all redheads are Scut Farkus.

Not a pig like every other man in the world?! Why Thank You So Much!!! I'm glad I had the opportunity to prove myself!

... "Proving myself" by not, for instance, pointing out how broadly embraced that stereotype is among people who simultaneously consider themselves virtuously free of bigotry.

Doing that would earn a guy a ticket right back to the sty.

"How nice!!!"
:spank:
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
84. Only if your definition of "sex" means exclusively the orgasm part.
Certainly the notion of being with an actual person, the experience of being in contact with something bigger than your own hand, is part of sex too. This is why blow up dolls and New Jersey robots are all doomed to failure outside a tiny niche market segment. The mind is and remains the most important sex organ. (I was gonna say "the biggest sex organ" but I didn't want anyone spamming up this thread with inappropriate pictures)
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. The kind of people who have no respect for women as human beings.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I would agree if you are talking about the guys who don't pay
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:21 AM by ThomWV
But the one's that pay - the pay itself is a show of respect. How does your employer show respect your labor? He pays you.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. sorry but I still consider it disrespectful of other human beings.
every hooker I have known hates herself. every one of them had been abused significantly as a child.
you cannot be a prostitute unless you loathe yourself.
taking advantage of that is disrespectful, to me.
anyway, namaste. peace.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Your remark is very judgemental.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 11:31 AM by Behind the Aegis
"you cannot be a prostitute unless you loathe yourself."

Really?

Also, what about women who use prostitutes? Gay men? Lesbians (yes, it happens)?

Edit: subject change
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Im merely speaking of many women I have known in my life
when I worked at womens shelters and at crisis lines. and worked with many women who had sold their bodies to men. they had all been abused as children. they loathed themselves, and they loathed the men who bought them.
I think the same would be true of anyone who allowed perfect strangers to use them.
Many women, in time, through therapy, learned to love themselves, and stopped the profession.
hey, I am not against the legalization of it. But thats just my personal take on it from firsthand experience while trying to help women back when i worked in crisis shelters for women and their children.
shalom.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. You are speaking to a certain population of sex workers.
However, in doing so, you have generalized what it is to be a prostitute. I have known a number of sex workers, mostly men, but more than a few women, and only a slim minority were sexually abused. I even knew of a few who did it "for kicks." I have also known some who are similar to the ones you've met. I still believe it is judgmental to declare no one is a prostitute unless s/he loathes her/himself. If anything, our puritanical society is to blame for the feelings toward prostitutes and prostitution.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. And extremely disrespectful
of sex workers who very often provide valuable, compassionate services to those able to pay for them.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
227. They aren't "sex workers." They are prostitutes.
Let's quit sugarcoating a human rights violation.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #227
254. if I want to be paid for sex
that isn't a human rights violation.

I get decide what violates me and what doesn't.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
41. There are all kinds of prostitutes. Why bash in particular those who sell sex? (nt)
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. that is true...
We have a few in Congress right now.
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sagetea Donating Member (471 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
93. Hmm, I worked in a brothel in Nevada
However I was not a "working girl" I was a bartender.
I will tell you that it is about 50/50 with the abuse, and college students that worked there to pay their tuition.
I realize that our ladies were safe, happy, and healthy and not trying to survive the street a huge difference, btw. They get weekly check ups, food and believe it or not respect from the townspeople, (it was a small town in north east Nevada and the taxes from the house has kept the town from dieing out.)They donated money to the schools and a ton of other town activities. I grew close to several of the ladies even to this day we still talk. As a matter of fact, I met my husband of 17 yrs. there.
But...every working girl has their own story, I heard many, some were incredibly profound, some were incredibly sad, and some were just ordinary. One was even, in her own words, carrying on with family traditions, her grandmother and mother were both prostitutes.

The house I worked at also did drug testing on the ladies,it was busy as hell, but they had a great time and it really was fun working there. Oh and most of the girls were lesbian outside of their job.

I guess there is a difference between a street hooker or a brothel hooker.

Ho
sage
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #93
111. Now that is a useful post!
Thank you!

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #93
121. There is a big difference
I live in northern Nevada and several counties here have legal prostitution. It is safe and regulated, not one case ever of a legal prostitute converting to HIV+ status and they work in a secure environment. The counties tend to be small and the revenue from the brothels keeps them going. Also a lot of philanthropy from some of the houses.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #121
262. These posts have too much reality. The Morality Patrol will decree their nonexistence shortly. -nt
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
192. Good point, very good point!
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
253. The prostitutes I have known enjoy it.
One of my best friends a number of years ago was a prostitute, as were several of her friends.
They specialized in domination kink, though, and got into hooking through their interest in their kink.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
239. Even the ones who pay.
I've known enough prostitutes in my life to know the damage done. Sex for money is not just another job.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I disagree.
There's not data or studies of which I'm aware that show this is true, or even likely.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
70. .
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #70
90. I am ignoring the author of that thread, so I can't see it.
By the way, I apologize for flaming you earlier - not interested in trading insults, so we can both either stop, or I'm putting you on ignore, as well. Cheers.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. I apologize as well.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 01:16 PM by BurtWorm
Thanks for saying that. Cheers to you.


PS: This was what in that other thread:

"When asked what would end ­prostitution, one interviewee laughed and said, "Kill all the girls.""

"Discovering the women were ­trafficked, pimped or otherwise coerced would appear not to be so ­effective" in stopping prostitution.

"More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked."

"More than one third said they thought the prostitutes they visited had been trafficked to London from another country"

"many believed men would "need" to rape if they could not pay for sex on demand."

"Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."


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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #90
140. Aww, how cute!
You put me on ignore after our disagreements about PETA. No surprise we'd be on opposite sides of women's rights issues, too. :hi:

(I've never had it confirmed when I've been put on ignore - kind of feel honored.)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
54. +1
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
163. Put down your broad stereotyping brush.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #163
263. +1
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
232. How about a person with a misplaced need for intimacy?
Maybe someone who themself feels unloved and unworthy?
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. hmmmmmm, none of the usual suspects have showed up howling about
"why didn't you say SOME men??? i'm a man, i don't do that. you must hate men."

i guess they must only question women who dare to post such things....

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
71. It's implied in the question. And it;s also a question, not a statement.
"Why do men use prostitutes?" Is really obviously asking "Why do the men, those who use prostitutes, use prostitutes?"

To ask "Why do SOME men use prostitutes?" Would seem redundant unless you defined the "some" as a different subset than "all men who use prositutes". Like just left handed men or men who are married or otherwise in a relationship.

Finally, 'using a prostitute' is perhaps not in the same category as other potential slurs. If you say "men are abusive jerks" one could easily conclude that you hate men. Whereas if you say 'men use prostitutes' does not lead to the same conclusion.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
102. nice spin
i stand by my theory.

so when a woman posts "why do men rape" she means all men are rapists

but when a man posts "why do men use prostitutes" he means only the men who do so, not all men...

is that it?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #102
167. spin?
You compare using prostitutes to rape. "Why do men jaywalk?" or "why do men drive over the speed limit?" are simply not gonna raise the same objections as "Why do men murder?" The negative implications are not the same. Not even close.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
132. Funny, I see all the usual suspects on this thread
:crazy:

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
243. the Op makes it clear its not an attack piece
It is also not lazy in accusation or other.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
31. Because sometimes we just want relationship-free sex.
Is that so wrong?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
73. I don't think so.
The problems with prostitution arise from the question of consent and coercion--not to get into the public health issues.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
195. No, but why not just buy a fancy plastic vag.?
Or masturbate? Most women would never get horny enough to just find a dick with which to screw! Hands and vibrators!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #195
244. the joy of sex goes far beyond the physical stimulation
i would imagine that having sex with another person, paid or not, can far more easily allow the full sensation of fantasy occur.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. Because they want to have sex, I assume NT
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. Are you honestly equating a blow up doll with a person.
That is unbelievably shallow.

But you knew that.

The fact is that you don't like anyone who uses other people. That, in itself, is admirable. However, your assumption that everyone who sees a prostitute is only using her as one would a sex aid, is ludicrous and asinine. I am of the opinion that all the vermin who pimp or traffic anyone, especially children, get exactly what they deserve assuming that they deserve to be locked up FOREVER.

But a financial arrangement between 2 consenting adults?
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
40. Convenience.
It's efficient and economical.

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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
47. Paying a prostitute seems to bring out the same feelings that women experience after an abortion
"unfulfilling, empty, terrible"
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. That seems like an inapt comparison.
I'm not sure if you meant to equate the two kinds of experiences. They're obviously entirely different. People say the same sorts of things after watching America's Funniest Home Videos or eating at Olive Garden after all.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
203. you are correct i'm not comparing both experience
agree many people don't express their feelings only use repetitive language
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
52. If you don't read the linked article, please at least read this part:
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 12:11 PM by redqueen
An upcoming new law will make it illegal for men to pay for sex with a trafficked or pimped woman – and a punter's ignorance of a woman's ­circumstances will be no defence. Critics have suggested that this is ­unfair, that a man can't possibly know whether a woman is being exploited. Our interviews challenged this ­notion. The men knew, to some extent, about abuse and coercion in prostitution – they weren't operating under the ­convenient illusion that women enter the trade because they love sex. More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked.

More than one third said they thought the prostitutes they visited had been trafficked to London from another country, and a small number said they suspected that they had ­encountered a trafficking victim based on the woman's inability to speak the local language or on how young or vulnerable they appeared. "I could tell she was new to the country," said one man. "To be new in a country and be a prostitute – it can't be a choice . . . She looked troubled."

Another said that he had "seen women with bruises, cuts and eastern European accents in locations where lots of trafficked women and girls are". One man suspected that an African woman he had met was ­trafficked ­because "she was frightened and ­nervous. She told me she had been tricked. I had sex with her and she seemed fine with the sex. She asked me to help her, but I said there was little I could do. She might have been lying to me."

One of the most interesting findings was that many believed men would "need" to rape if they could not pay for sex on demand. One told me, "Sometimes you might rape someone: you can go to a prostitute instead." Another put it like this: "A desperate man who wants sex so bad, he needs sex to be relieved. He might rape." I concluded from this that it's not feminists such as Andrea Dworkin and myself who are responsible for the idea that all men are potential rapists – it's sometimes men themselves.





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
59. Another perspective
But first, a joke.

Q: what's the difference between a mistress, a hooker and a wife?
A: A mistress says, "It's over already?" A hooker says, "It's over already!" A wife says, "Beige. We should paint the ceiling beige."

Now, the other perspective:

I’ve been married twice over the last 25 years. In the first case my wife of 20 years relieved me of about $200K more than she was entitled to in the division of assets, and then hit me up for half my salary for five years for support even though she was employable and there were no children. My second wife (of five years) took half the value of the house I paid for in cash, even though she had kept her own house throughout the marriage. She then left me holding the bag for most of the line of credit that was secured by the house.

I went from being a millionaire in 2001 to broke today, and never once touched a hooker or used drugs.

Now, lest I come off sounding bitter, my first wife gave me a lot more emotional connection than a hooker would have, and I have yet to hear of a hooker at any price that would have equalled my second wife in bed. So on balance (and given all the inner work I’ve done in the last couple of years) I’m not unhappy with where I’ve ended up. It was expensive, but what price should we put on experience?

From my point of view, prostitution seems an honest and honourable transaction. It’s also a hell of a lot less expensive than marriage (or at least divorce). I’d still never visit one, because having an emotional and spiritual connection with my partner is more important to me than sex, but I can sure sympathize with men who do. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper to send a hooker home than it is to send a wife home.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #59
220. How wrong is THAT?
Everyone knows you should never paint a ceiling beige!
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WT Fuheck Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
62. pretty much the same reason they masturbate.
it's just higher-ticket wanking
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. There was an intellectual up thread who claimed there's no comparison.
He wouldn't answer if he thought bestiality was more like it.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
63. So many quotes, so little space...
"When asked what would end ­prostitution, one interviewee laughed and said, "Kill all the girls.""

"Discovering the women were ­trafficked, pimped or otherwise coerced would appear not to be so ­effective" in stopping prostitution.

"More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked."

"More than one third said they thought the prostitutes they visited had been trafficked to London from another country"

"many believed men would "need" to rape if they could not pay for sex on demand."

"Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."

Yeah, there's a whole lot of respect going on there. But of course, it's more complicated than that. Men have needs you know!
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
65. Because they can
and they don't care
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
69. Married men pay for discretion.
Tiger probably wouldn't have been caught if he just paid for prostitutes instead of hooking up with party girls. You'll never hear about the 100's of prostitutes he's probably had in Dubai, for example.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
77. Don't expect the challenging of stereotypes from this article.
One of the most interesting findings was that many believed men would "need" to rape if they could not pay for sex on demand. One told me, "Sometimes you might rape someone: you can go to a prostitute instead." Another put it like this: "A desperate man who wants sex so bad, he needs sex to be relieved. He might rape." I concluded from this that it's not feminists such as Andrea Dworkin and myself who are responsible for the idea that all men are potential rapists – it's sometimes men themselves.

Half of the interviewees had bought sex outside of the UK, mostly in Amsterdam, and visiting an area where prostitution is legal or openly advertised had given them a renewed dedication to buying sex when they returned to the UK. Almost half said that they first paid for sex when they were below the age of 21. "Dad took me and my older brother," said David. "He paid. Maybe he wanted to make sure we weren't gay. We went to a brothel. Dad didn't do it, and I don't think he told my mum."

Another man paid for sex during a stag trip to Thailand with eight of his friends. He was disappointed. "It was a Russian girl, it wasn't the escort experience. She didn't want to talk, just lay on the bed and wanted to do the act only."

Many men seemed to want a real relationship with a woman and were disappointed when this didn't develop: "It's just a sex act, no emotion. Be prepared to accept this or don't go at all. It's not a wife or girlfriend." ­Others were clear that they paid for sex in order to be able to totally control the encounter, including Bob, who said, "Look, men pay for women because he can have whatever and whoever he wants. Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."


I find the article interesting in that almost all of the statements offered which confirm the author's stereotypes are provided either in the speculative third person "Maybe some men might rape instead?", while all of the "surprising" findings are offered in the first person.

In other words, the author treats interviewees regurgitation of conventional wisdom with the same degree of validity as their "unexpected" first person anecdotes.

It's clear from the statements of the people involved that most men who patronize prostitutes do so for companionship. (In my experience sex and companionship are inseparable to most men.)

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. "sex and companionship are inseparable to most men"
I would hope that'd be the case, but judging from most responses here, and conventional wisdom... I'm not sure it is.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. There's a unhealthy confluence of stereotype and machismo...
... which creates the prevailing conventional wisdom.

Contrary to stereotypes, to most men fulfilling sex requires a meaningful degree of companionship, whether they'll admit it or not.

That's why "GFE" has entered the hooker lexicon.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. It's also clear, as from the last quote in your block and from what some men are saying here
that many of those who frequent prostitutes are fully aware that it's a different transaction from "normal" heterosexual (and I would presume homosexual) relationships. You're not going to a prostitute in search of companionship, mainly. You're going because, as one person upthread put it, you have sexual energy that you want to spend in just that way that spending it with a live partner affords you. You're not doing it for conversation. You're doing it strictly for business. This seems to be a common thread in the male customer side of the equation.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. I disagree.
most men who hire prostitutes do so with an (inevitably unfulfilled) "pretty woman" fantasy.

Intellectually, they realize that that ain't gonna happen, so they reset their expectations.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. How do you know? How do you know you're not stereotyping users of prostitution
just as much as you accuse this feminist writer of?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. I have 100% more datapoints to draw from than the author.
Although I've never hired a hooker, I don't have to speculate about the romantic motivations of *every* man.

I might be projecting somewhat, but I'm not stereotyping.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
78. This is what you want to talk about?
:wow:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. Considering that at least half of these guys knew the prostitute was abused...
I think it's a good question.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. I read the OP intro, not reading the article, not a topic of interest today
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #91
113. Thanks for stopping by to tell us that.
:eyes:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #113
130. Thanks for pissing on the GD page today
:puke:
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
158. One of the most sadly poignant things I've ever seen
Is a prostitute I'm familiar with, she's usually emaciated from drug use. One time she went to a bathroom, and spent a couple of hours 'picking' at a wound on her head, classic crack or meth behavior(she had been hit with something)

She still has beautiful hair, green eyes, but she can't weigh 90 pounds and is five foot six or so.


I watched a man pick her up. I don't think it was to take her to taco bell. I thought what the fuck, you asshole. Then I thought, this woman suffers from addiction, economically it's just about the only option available for her.

That is fucked up

Like I said down thread, Men use prostitutes because they can. And they don't care.

When I was a kid (I don't know how many times I've told this story) I ran away and lived on the street. My first exposure with prostitution were the male prostitutes. There is a slightly different dynamic with male prostitutes, more sugar daddies, but still those boys suffered, and they were always in danger, if not from the tricks, than the young thugs who wanted to go beat up 'queer' on the the street.

They're all dead now, those boys, the ones I knew this was the late seventies--right before AIDs. When AIDS hit it was like a black hole sucking up bodies and souls. They all died, and I was never the same. Those beautiful boys.


I never have turned a trick in my life. For me, I quickly realized it's better to think like a pimp. Or panhandle. Or starve. But that's the story of me.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #158
164. What a great post!
Thank you for that. You and just a few others have made it worth posting this.

:toast:

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #158
249. ~*~
:hug: :cry:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
81. because they're there.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 12:54 PM by dysfunctional press
an overweight, unattractive guy in his late teens, with a deformed hand and the resultant insecurity issues has the same physical 'drives' as anyone else, but not as many opportunities to explore them.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #81
115. +1 nt
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #81
144. perhaps he could explore them with an overweight unattractive woman in her late teens n/t
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #144
153. yes, because ugly people have no right to expect to ever have sex with someone they find attractive.
nice attitude. :hi:
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #153
165. No, not really.... no one has a "right" to "expect" sex
Do ugly girls have the right to expect that attractive, well-built guys are ever going to look twice at them? Because that's never going to happen. And obviously they can't even get the ugly guys, because ugly guys apparently think they deserve hotties.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #165
176. I agree completely, and I find it sad either way.
I mean, a sexual relationship generally does require some degree of physical attraction, correct? So if unattractive people can only "get" partners they aren't attracted to anyway, I guess they're pretty much screwed.

Oh well, there's always suicide... :hide: /dark humor
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #176
185. "I guess they're pretty much screwed."
that's what prostitutes are for.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #185
188. For the screwed to screw?
Ooh, I'm going to hell for that one... :evilgrin:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #165
183. ugly girls can pay for a hot escort the same as an ugly guy can.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. I don't think the same level of "supply" exists there, though.
Then again, for similar reasons of cultural influence, I wouldn't think the same "demand" exists either. But if a man can buy an hour with a female (or male) escort, then why shouldn't a woman have the same option?
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #153
175. that is NOT what I said...
poster was complaining that as an unattractive, overweight male he could not get sex ... and thus had to buy it ... implying that "attractive" women didn't want him ... so, of course, it didn't occur to him that "unattractive" women might want him ... no, he couldn't do THAT, he had to complain that he HAD to buy sex if he wanted any.

MY attitude is just fine, thanks very much.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #175
184. "it didn't occur to him that "unattractive" women might want him..."
no- it didn't occur to you that a guy might not want to have sex with someone he finds unattractive. or that he might not be ABLE to have sex with someone he finds unnattractive, especially in pre-viagra days. unlike women, guys can't necessarily consumate the act simply by applying some k-y jelly.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #184
189. Kind of the same thing I said.
And I'm certainly not about to demand that one person provide sexual services for another, I just find the whole thing a little sad.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
85. for sexual release rather than intimacy, difficulty relating
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
87. It is hypocritical to attack men for paying for sex, but not women for refusing to pay for sex
:hide: I welcome your popcorn. I defy your popcorn.

(I fear your popcorn)

 
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
95. self delete - question asked and answere above
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 01:20 PM by closeupready
self detle
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
101. A friend of mine says that the relationship
between a prostitute and client is the most honest there is.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. That is just stupid. Utterly meaningless.
Hookers fear for their lives.

Even the ones in the happy sunny 'it's legal here so it's good!' places have to worry about violent incidents.

Or is the 'honesty' in that situation that the man is acting like the vicious fucker he really is, as opposed to the person he pretends to be around his friends / family?
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #110
247. i think the honesty in this case
relates to a circumstance where the male does not trust women in general. Thus he must feel that paying for sex is a complete transaction with no hidden expectations and no hidden agendas.


Not that i agree, as the male is probably subconsciously tricking himself into believing that the transaction is companionship for at least the duration.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #101
118. LOL! I have an honest offer to sell your friend the Brooklyn Bridge.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
216. Yes, check out the honesty here:
"In pleading guilty in 2003 to the murders of 48 prostitutes, Gary Leon Ridgway told a judge he targeted street walkers "because I thought I could kill as many as I wanted to without getting caught.""

I'm sure the honesty of the relationship is a great consolation to the hundreds of prostitutes that are killed every year.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
114. For the pleasure.
Next question
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
125. For the hoped-for pleasure, I would say.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #114
137. DING DING DING We have a winner!
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udbcrzy2 Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
117. They get 'special attention' quickly
I think they do it to get laid quickly without having to develop a relationship. Also remember
there are men/women who need other kinds of sex such as: multiple partners (threesomes), people
who like to have rough sex (I think they call it 'English'), some need to be humiliated you know
the dog (the guy/gal who licks the toilet seat and wears a dog collar)among other strange sex episodes.

I am glad they have places to go to get what they need because we sure in hell don't want them
coming home looking for that shit:)
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #117
134. Kinks are difficult to deal with in a relationship.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 01:53 PM by GliderGuider
Kinks, as you point out, might be deal-breakers. Kinks are a big problem in relationships, because the only honest thing to do is to disclose beforehand. Trotting out the diapers, handcuffs and rubber chicken tends to put the kibosh on a budding romance. On the other hand, if the kink is a deal-breaker, is paying to get your kink stroked any less of one?

On edit: Multiple partners tends not to be such a big problem, at least in my experience. It seems to be a little more "normal" to most people.
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udbcrzy2 Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #134
141. But they have to find people willing to participate
If they guy/gal cannot find anyone to participate in ANY kind of sex, then they have
to find some. Prostitution offers that plus more. There's some weird shit going on
out there. I guess prostitution offers them a fantasy option - they get whatever
they want as long as they have enough money that is.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #141
157. Yep. there's no questionin my mind that prostitution is a valuable service.
How it ends up being provided is another matter entirely.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #117
187. .
:spray:


:applause:
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dustbunnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
143. I've known a number of prostitutes... all men.

They're all bodybuilders and there's a form of prostitution popular in the industry called "gay for pay." I never would have thought there are so many heterosexual men who are interested in paying $100 + an hour for wrassling around with a muscular guy then masturbating. Or wanting to be subdued by a Hercules character. Or a host of other activities. But there are. I came to realize that a lot of these men are also married and/or work in stereotypical macho jobs. By contrast, some are doctors... or just average joes you see on the street. They also catered to women who are into the big and brawny. I guess in these cases, people are drawn to the fantasy aspect in addition to the quickie sex.

Far as I know, no one "loved" the work, but relatively few people enjoy theirs. As with everyone else, it's viewed as work, not fun. The benefits are not working nine to five, a must when pursuing certain hobbies or financing an interest (one is an artist in his other life), you get to travel a lot, take vacations whenever you wish, and the pay is excellent.

Is it exploitive? Yes. The job description is allowing someone else to objectify your body. If the owner of the body is okay with it, then it's no one else's business really other than the IRS.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #143
150. The pay is excellent--and tax free, mostly.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 03:01 PM by BurtWorm
For that kind of prostitution, I imagine. Not so for all, of course.
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dustbunnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. Yes, those with talents who can provide specialized care make more.

There are prostitutes who sell their bodies just to make drug money and obviously will make nothing. Those who are slaves make less than that.

But my post went more to the question "why." Living out a fantasy is one really good reason. Sometimes it's peer pressure, like when a bunch of guys attend a convention/conference together. Another would be in the case where someone is living a horrible or tepid marriage but doesn't want to leave because of kids, the cost of divorce, etc. I think that as more women enter the top tiers of the corporate workforce or have the chance to amass wealth alongside men, we'll see the same behavior from them as well.
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udbcrzy2 Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. Well, here how about this one
A mother who has a mentally disabled son living with her and his hormones are raging.
She drops him off at the local massage parlor each week as an act of kindness to satisfy his
biological needs. There is a need for prostitution and it's not always the same kind of situation.

Think of all the tax money it could generate if it were legalized in all states.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #161
173. What if said massage parlor is staffed by trafficked (and presumably unwilling) immigrants?
That does complicate the ethics of the situation, to say the least.

But assuming this isn't the case, I don't have a serious issue with your scenario. I think even some governments (Netherlands, maybe Denmark) have provided sex workers to people with disabilities, at no cost to the recipient. Now how's that for socialized medicine? ;)
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udbcrzy2 Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #173
181. That would suck to be an unwilling sex slave
Wow, never knew that about Netherlands/Denmark.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
151. Why do men use prostitutes? For the same reason a dog licks his penis
Because he can.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
159. i would say emotional and physical release.
I don't think I ever could.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
160. because they haven't perfected sex-droids yet! nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
166. There are plently of guys that have huge problems with getting a date.
They may be mentally ill, disfigured, have social anxiety, be shunned as a "geek", autistic, etc.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #166
171. +1
I have no wish to "encourage" the buying or selling of sex - I don't find it inherently immoral or unethical, but I have serious (and I would say understandable) reservations about the subject - but the reality of what you just said is inescapable. It's not about anybody having the "right" to sex or companionship, it's about people who have the same "needs" (or at least desires) that (nearly) every other human being has, but being in less of a position than most to satisfy those needs the "normal" way, i.e. through some type of relationship.

I'm not saying it's necessarily all well and good to go out and pay for sexual services, but if the opportunity is there it *will* happen, at least in a certain number of cases. I don't condemn the "customer" in such an instance, but I find the whole thing sad all around, for both buyer and seller.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #171
234. Spot on
I'm amazed at the anger shown towards a damaged person using another damaged person. I don't think most see it as a "right" but an opportunity.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #166
233. A simple answer, but maybe that's what's needed
However, I doubt people's sympathy will extend that far.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
194. I may just be guessing here but emerging research suggests they do it to have sex?
:rofl:
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BlueCollar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
196. they're not prostitutes...they're
"...ladies of negotiable affections..."
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #196
199. "Affections"? It's a job, dude. They don't do it for fun...
*shakes head* :)
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #196
255. In Ankh-Morpork, certainly
;-)
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
198. I feel sorry for the prostitutes.
Have some guy humpin ya, that you wouldn't dream of kissing.Yeckkkkkk.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
201. Self-delete.
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 06:13 PM by 11 Bravo
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
204. Horny
do I get the prize ;-)
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
205. Because women even have to ask this question!
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
207. Women won't do it for free
Because they know men will pay for it.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
209. I spent 4 years in the Navy. From a debtors prison for women in Curaco
to the red light districts of Europe, I've been there and enjoyed the pleasures. Only one reason why men go to prostitutes, they're HORNY!
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DeadEyeDyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
210. Why do men use prostitutes?
what else you going to do with them?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
211. It's not for me, but for consenting adults, I'm fine with it.
It can be very exploitive, both by the prostitute and against the prostitute, both by the john and against the john.

Whether one is purchasing prostitution or some other work, proper treatment of those hired is always required.
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Chomsky_Fan Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
212. Good times
Nothing's wrong with pleasure. There's always been demand for good old-fashion sex for sex's sake. Pretend is a part of some sublime love, and more prostitutes will be needed.
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MarcoMcHairyPants Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
214. dupe.
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 01:55 AM by MarcoMcHairyPants
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MarcoMcHairyPants Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
215. Uh, because. Some men's wives are fugly.
That's god's fault though. He made them ugly.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #215
240. The vast majority of hookers aren't anything to write home about.
But men still pay for it.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #215
296. No, actually, it's the Johns who are losers......
:eyes:

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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
222. Unfortunately prostitution is something men will force on society forever.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
226. Because they are losers who think they have a right to treat women
like garbage cans.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #226
228. Even the ones who are "mentally ill, disfigured, have social anxiety, autistic, etc"?
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 09:19 PM by GliderGuider
So what are they supposed to do? Wait until the pressure gets unbearable? Then what?

And if it's OK for some of them, where do you draw the line?

Thanks, Odin2005, your post threw things into sharp relief for me.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
230. because they think using women as semen receptacles is A-OK
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 09:34 PM by Skittles
they would largely deplore their own mothers, sisters, daughters being treated in such a fashion yet they think nothing of doing it to someone else's mother, sister, daughter :puke:
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #230
256. What's wrong with being a semen receptacle?
If I want to be that and make some cash off it, what's wrong with that?

Is taking someone out for dinner making them a food receptacle? Is that bad?

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #256
258. not even worth debating
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
235. Can't tell you. I'm too goddamn cheap to pay for sex.
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 09:51 PM by BreweryYardRat
$100-$200 or more...an hour? No thanks, I don't need the release THAT badly.

Although being a miserly bastard has given me a real bone-crusher of a handshake.
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Grand Taurean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
246. Shouldn't the answer be obvious?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
248. more interesting than the article is the PDF file of the research n/t
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
250. The same reason dogs lick themselves- because we can. nm
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
264. Call me back when the "Who Is Most Judgmental" competition ends.
The competition is fierce, there are at least four contenders here with a shot at victory plus a couple of dark horses, but the game has somewhat gridlocked.

Hint: I see nobody has broad-brush-accused men who hire prostitutes of being terrorists yet. You could try that.
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J-Lo Biafra Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #264
293. WIN.
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EndersDame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
267. If my BF (or I ) wants to have sex with someone else it has to be alegal prositiute
That is the deal we have but none of us can afford one :p It would ensure that it really was "just sex" and no need for either party to get jealous nor worry about an unintended pregnancy or std and the woman is not exploited
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
268. I'll be honest - I have seen 3 since my divorce. And I am considering
doing it again. If my finances allow.

All 3 were extremely nice. They were actually intelligent and quite conversant. Whether they enjoyed it or not - they were very convincing that they did enjoy it. Which is what I was paying for. But they were very enthusiastic and seemed to take great pride in their work, whether they *truly* enjoyed it or not. They were all "independents" and easily could have found "other" jobs, so I assume they did enjoy their work.

The sessions were not only pleasureable but very therapuetic. I actually mentioned to one of them that I viewed it as a form of therapy and she agreed enthusiastically - and this was in the "relax and get to know you" part of the session when we were both fully clothed.

I have worked in some form of Customer Service all of my life, and these 3 women were some of the best Customer Service professionals I have ever seen.

As I said, though, these women were all "independents." I can't help but believe that if prostitution were recognized as a valid therapy and legalized, that a lot of the "pimps" would disappear. Not of all them, of course. There will always be assholes. But it would be a big improvement. Of course, I could be wrong.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
270. THE ARISTOCRATS!!!!
It was time for this.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
271. Because they are self-centered, callous, and don't give a shit about women.
I'm basing that on the last line in your post: "More than half admitted that they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked."

If you get that the odds are better than 50-50 that you are fucking someone who isn't in that position from free will, you are a fucking rapist.
Men who rape women and find some way to justify it to themselves (I'm a good sensitive lonely misunderstood person just wanting companionship - and a chance to fuck a victim of trafficking while I'm here) are misogynistic assholes.

Hope that's not too blunt for anyone's delicate sensibilities.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #271
272. "More than 1/2 admitted they either knew or believed that a majority of women in prostitution...
...were lured, tricked or trafficked."

I don't know in other places, but in Rio de Janeiro that's most definitely NOT the case. A choice sometimes made under economic duress, maybe. Lured, tricked or trafficked? Not bloody likely. All of them are locals.

Now, were I in London, and saw prostitutes who (a) looked frightened, (b) spoke fractured English, and (c) had suspicious looking marks on their body... you bet your ass all alarms would go of in my head.

That's what anonymous calls to the police were made for.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #272
273. "Between 250,000 and 2 million children forced into prostitution in Brazil"
"Brazil is considered to have the worst child sex trafficking record after Thailand. According to the recently released Protection Project report, various official sources agree that from 250,000 to 500,000 child live as child prostitutes."

http://www.libertadlatina.org/LA_Brazils_Child_Prostitution_Crisis.htm

Where sex work is legal, it is ALWAYS a hub for human trafficking and sex slaves. It's like when we invade a country, we know we will be killing mostly civilians - just a reality that comes with the turf. You can support that industry knowing the reality, you can refuse to support/defend it, or you can stick your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it - but the sand doesn't make the reality change.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #273
274. Lots of crimes are insufficiently cracked on by Brazilian law enforcement.
From DVD piracy to burglary to drug trafficking to embezzlement to murder. Child prostitution is as heinous a crime here as in the oh-so-righteous-because-it-outlaws-prostitution US-minus-Nevada-of-A, and is fought as effectively as our less than stellar state apparatus allows.

Are you seriously arguing that outlawing prostitution in general would help, instead of making ev erything worse?
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #274
276. I'm just telling you the facts.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 02:46 AM by noamnety
When you bomb a country, you kill mostly civilians. Basic law of warfare.

When you legalize prostitution, you increase sex trafficking/sex slaves. Creating an industry around people with money getting to fuck women who are poor/disadvantaged establishes and builds the market. The people involved in trafficking aren't idiots, they bring the sex slaves to the market. Brazil, Netherlands, Nevada, etc. Basic law of treating women as a commodity for purchase.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #276
277. Saying "it is so" doesn't make it so.
Back it up or leave the subthread saying how horrible a person I am, like the other one.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #277
278. Do some research.
It's really easy to find. I'm sure I've posted links to the research dozens of times on DU, but it seems to me if you cared about women being victims, and someone says "increased sex trade/human trafficking is the result of legalizing prostitution" you'd at least take a few minutes to check out if there might be some truth there before dismissing that or continuing to defend it.

(You know, I'm looking at your user name and trying to figure out how someone who embraces communism on any level is okay with a class of people as commodities.)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #278
280. YOU made the allegation, YOU do the research.
No data anywhere (opinion isn't data) suggests in any way, shape, or form, that outlawing adult prostitution has any kind of positive effect in combating child prostitution.

The countries in red. Do they have it better than the ones in green and blue? (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_prostitution#Prostitution_laws)

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #280
287. takes rwo minutes to find
and it SHOULD be the obligation of the exploiter to check himself if someone points out they are contributing to a problem of trafficking, either by using or defending an industry based on a caste system. Just like it SHOULD be the obligation of a CEO to check their factories if someone says one of their production facilities is a sweat shop.

I noticed you exclusively focused on children in your post, as if increased trafficking women over the age of 18 is a nonissue, nothing to be concerned about. Therefore, here is an article about the increase in child trafficking in Vegas:

"Juvenile Prostitution: Trafficking in children on increase

Las Vegas among 14 U.S. cities where problem is most severe

...Shannon said that Las Vegas police have arrested prostitutes as young as 11 working the city's streets and hotel corridors. Over the years, the number of juveniles apprehended for prostitution in Las Vegas has soared, bolstered by pimps who are bringing teenagers here from other states to become part of the city's illegal sex-for-sale industry. ..."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Mar-19-Sun-2006/news/6434154.html

"The most common destinations for victims of human trafficking are Thailand (where it is technically illegal - but regulated), Japan, Israel, Belgium (where it's legal), the Netherlands (where it's legal), Germany (where it's legal), Italy (where it's legal), Turkey (where it's legal) and the US (where it's legal in some places), according to a report by the UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime).<31>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking

Prostitution is illegal in the vast majority of all countries. Almost all of the worst countries for trafficking fall within the minority of countries where it is legalized. You have to be in some serious denial to not see a connection.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #287
288. I see another correlation. Almost all of the worst countries for trafficking DESTINATIONS are RICH.
Now the worst sources, from the same article: Thailand, China, Nigeria, Albania, Bulgaria, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine. All poor.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #288
290. The most exploitable women are trafficked to where it's legal and people have money.
Absolutely. The article was acknowledging in that last line that most of the men buying women understood that basic dynamic (and didn't care).

Another dynamic is that when military men take up operations in an area, trafficking increases. Military guys come from a culture of male supremacy, domination as power, and that combination translates to exploitation of women. War torn countries are a place where women have few rights, few ways to support themselves. Like you correctly mentioned above, women in poverty don't have a lot of choice, they may have to pick between going hungry or selling rape-rights to their body. Do this if you want to survive is not a choice I would define as free will. In a marriage, if a man threatens his wife with not being allowed to eat unless she "puts out" - we recognize that as spousal rape. In the absence of that direct identifiable threat, even when the dynamics are exactly the same, we don't call it rape, we call it the free market.
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Unrepentant Fenian Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #271
284. Just how does one get "tricked" into prostitution???
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #284
291. That's an ongoing problem.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 10:34 AM by noamnety
Put out an ad for a nanny, when the woman applies, take her to a new country where she doesn't know anyone and has no resources (she goes of her own will for the nanny job, it's not a kidnapping). Then when she's there, the trafficker takes her passport so she can't leave, cuts off her communication to family, and forces her into sexual slavery.
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J-Lo Biafra Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #271
292. All sex is rape. When you masturbate, you're raping your thumb.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #292
297. If you want to be funny, at least TRY a little.....
:sarcasm:
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J-Lo Biafra Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #297
298. People who need to use the sarcasm tag suck at sarcasm.
Am I being sarcastic? You'll have to figure it out...
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
275. because they want to? None of my business.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
286. Has Anybody
Has anybody given any thought to the fact that with a real unemployment rate of nearly twenty percent a lot of men and women would do things they don't normally do including selling themselves to make a buck?
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #286
289. See #288. -nt
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
294. Note the word "use" rather than "employ."
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:16 PM by tonysam
It says it all, I believe.

The biggest lie of all is the notion put forward by misogynists and "libertarians" is that prostitution is a "victimless" crime. It isn't.

I attribute this bullshit to people like Phil Donahue and Geraldo Rivera, both of whom glamorized human rights violations back in the 1970s and 1980s, peddling prostitution as an "alternative lifestyle," and featuring pimps and now tax evaders like Joseph Conforte as some kind of folk heroes.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #294
299. I also picked up on the phrase "real women"--The interviewees could do things with prostitutes...
... that they "couldn't do with real women." Like the women they were "using" aren't "real women."

Another thing that creeps me out beyond words is the opinion expressed in this thread that a child who is sexually exploited magically becomes a fully-consenting adult at the age of 18 years. Every reputable psychological study demonstrates without doubt that a sexually abused child remains psychologically a child in some critical areas no matter how old and hardened they get to be. They have markedly reduced capacity to "consent."

The ones making this argument are probably the same ones blaming the Dugard child for remaining with her abuser after she magically turned 18. :puke:

Hekate
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
295. I once knew someone who frequently used prostitutes
He was a nice enough fellow, had a few degrees to his name but he wasn't very successful with women. In his case, I think it was purely loneliness and neediness. He described his interactions with these women to me and he went out of his way to be kind and respectful. He even tried to pursue real relationships with a couple of the girls. That, of course, failed. I also felt bad for him. I believe like the "Alex" in the story above, his issues with forming real relationships with women were related to things that happened in his youth.
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