Pentagon considering whether gay troops need to be segregated

[Mari333]

Big news on the Don't Ask Don't Tell repeal front, and none of it good. The NYT reported in Friday morning's paper that the Pentagon memo that leaked yesterday from the Chairman of the Joint Chief's office was not just some "legal memo," as was first reported. It was a draft proposal for the position the Joint Chiefs should take with regards to the President's promise to repeal DADT. And the proposal was: "not now."

'Despite the uncertainty of timing, another military official said that the Department of Defense was beginning to look at the practical implications of a repeal — for example, whether it would be necessary to change shower facilities and locker rooms because of privacy concerns, whether to ban public displays of affection on military bases and what to do about troops who are stationed or make port calls in nations that outlaw homosexuality.'
(MORE AT THE SITE ABOUT THE SEGREGATION OF FACILITIES VIA NYT)





http://gay.americablog.com/2010/01/pentagon-considering-whether-gay-troops.html

WTF WTF WTF....

ENJOY THE FUMES UNDER THE BUS?

[niyad]

1. please, dear goddess, tell me this isn't real.

a segregated military? oh, I get it, we are in the 19th century, not the 21st.

sometimes I am REALLLLLLLY embarrassed for this country.

I rec'd this--everyone needs to see this unbelievable bs.

[bullwinkle428]

2. The 1930s called...they want their policies back.

[Mari333]

3. this is turning into a nightmare of more then epic proportions

and I have a feeling it is going to fuel some real resistance and motivate a lot of people to come out swinging. I hope so.
segregation of gay soldiers! to have their own facilities! unbelievable. I never thought we would sink this low but why do I kid myself every day thinking we cannot sink any lower.

[StarfarerBill]

4. Segregation...in the United States armed forces...in the 21st Century.

Just when I thought my mind couldn't get any more boggled... :mad:

An alternative: give all homophobes dishonorable discharges.

[Zhade]

37. And people have the gall to say our struggle isn't like the one MLK led.

NT!

[GodlessBiker]

5. Oh, for christ sake. How stupid can these people be?

[hlthe2b]

6. what Troglodytes

[meow2u3]

7. They'd dub it "The Fabulous Brigade"

in the media. :rofl:

[Mari333]

8. hey unrec's people. get off the Dem Underground, now. gay rights are supported here

[Salmonslayer]

9. Wait a second.

"....for example, whether it would be necessary to change shower facilities and locker rooms because of privacy concerns, whether to ban public displays of affection on military bases ....."

Step back from the knee jerk reaction and think about this for a minute.

The military is not considering drinking fountain/seats on a bus/lunch counter segregation that existed between blacks and whites.

The type of segregation the military has brought up for discussion is already done. I will call it segregation based on sexual interest.

Men and women are segregated. Why are you willing to accept segregation between men and women? How is that different?

This is a very interesting dilemma.

As a heterosexual man I have been approached by gay men at the gym when I lived in Hollywood. I politely let them know I was interested in women. I have also had men staring at me in the shower sporting full erections. While I can deal with it, I do not appreciate it any more than women would if there were heterosexual co-ed locker facilities.

I would be interested to hear some open minded consideration of what I have said.

[teenagebambam]

12. There are ALREADY gay men and women in the military

sharing the same showers and facilities. All the repeal would do is make them not have to lie about it any more.

[Salmonslayer]

15. I understand that thare are already homosexuals in the military

please explain how that is relevant to my post.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

47. Because they're already sharing the same facilities as straight troops.

The only difference a DADT repeal would make is that the gay soldiers wouldn't have to lie about their orientation.

And this may surprise you, but gay people are not on any mission to "convert" straight people, in the military or otherwise.

[pinto]

27. Good point. n/t

[Nancy Boy]

13. Well

DADT's existence already implies that homosexuals are in the military. Heterosexual men shower with them, because the shower segregation policy hasn't been enacted between similar genders of differing sexualities. So there's evidence that there is no need for segregation right now in the military, which is not a gym or a civilian institution.

There's no knee-jerking here. Those who aren't in the accepted sexuality class know discrimination when they see it, because it's a part of their daily lives. To claim otherwise is to partake in the theme that they're immoral sex-hounds trying to steal you and your children for their evil, sexual purposes. So.

[Salmonslayer]

21. I understand your point,

"So there's evidence that there is no need for segregation right now in the military, which is not a gym or a civilian institution." There is no evidence now under DADT. However, with the absence of DADT it changes the environment a bit. this raises the questions that the military is asking. I think it is a point worth considering. I doubt it will ever happen, but, I dont condemn the military for thinking about this issue from all sides.

"There's no knee-jerking here."

Agreed, I appreciate your post

" To claim otherwise is to partake in the theme that they're immoral sex-hounds trying to steal you and your children for their evil, sexual purposes. So."

Gay men are no more "sex hounds" than straight men. I was equating my experiences in locker rooms to the same experience that women would have with straight men.

[joeybee12]

23. Give it a rest...

yeah, you get tackled in the showers because you're so fucking good-looking, right?

[bullwinkle428]

26. It's like they're just mailing it in these days...no effort

to be creative whatsoever! :dunce:

[Salmonslayer]

31. It is easier to attack than answer the question.

Why is it OK to have separate shower facilities for men and women in the military. Isn't this segregation?

[Tailormyst]

35. Because since the beginning of time women have been victimized by men.

That is a fact. Things are getting better, but they are not quite there yet.

[Salmonslayer]

43. thank you

for answering without calling me a homophobe :-). For the record I have two (out of four) gay siblings and I have a strong relationship with them. I also have a couple of conservative gay friends(I know this is rare)that would laugh at the some of the responses that attack instead of discuss.

I think you bring up a good point that I did not consider. Perhaps it is is a sign that "things are getting better".

[Salmonslayer]

28. Thats a fact jack

thank you for you valuable contribution to a honest discussion

[Tailormyst]

25. Here is a fucking clue: Gay men are not interested in you.

They are interested in OTHER GAY MEN.

[Nancy Boy]

36. ...

"There is no evidence now under DADT. However, with the absence of DADT it changes the environment a bit. this raises the questions that the military is asking. I think it is a point worth considering. I doubt it will ever happen, but, I dont condemn the military for thinking about this issue from all sides."

There's testimony (I'm sure Google is helpful) of many heterosexual soldiers who know who the gay ones are and are comfortable serving along side them. They don't follow up, "But the shower situation needs to change."

Like I pointed out, it's not a gym shower. It's a military shower. It's not there for convenience. If you were to accept the point that heterosexual soldiers can't shower with homosexual soldiers do to modesty (and it's modesty you HAVE to be speaking of, otherwise it's rape you're speaking of, which is probably--and I could be wrong here--one of the reasons for gender segregation, alongside cultural attitudes) you'll have to acknowledge those too modest to even shower in front of heterosexual soldiers. And that CAN'T happen, because it opposes the efforts of the military in creating soldiers (which is to take away one's individuality and create a cohesive war machine). A modest soldier hesitates in war. In the field, where are you going to urinate and defecate? In front of other soldiers. Where are you going to sleep? With other soldiers. To acquiesce to this modesty disrupts soldiering.

Your continuous pointing out of the segregation of genders is either to point out to a hypocrisy or that "if it's good enough for this situation, it's good enough here." You probably have an argument for the former, but not the latter.

[Tailormyst]

24. So straight men must be protected from a gay man seeing their penis?

But gay men just love having every other gay man checking out their package because that's all a gay man is right? All about sex.

Here is a fucking clue.

At some point in their life every man has been seen by a gay man and every woman has been seen by a lesbian. That is, unless you come from some weird religious sect that causes bodies to be shielded at all times, from birth. And somehow you have all survived.

Gay men and women are NOT predators. They are NOT checking out every straight person thinking " Ooo I bet I could give him teh gay".

Jesus H fucking Christ.

[Mari333]

29. thank you for saying that so I didnt have to

man, the fear of teh gay is strong on here

my friend rose and i slept in the same room together and she was a lesbian and i was not.we were FRIENDS. we were sisters at heart.

she was not the least bit interested in me, she had a partner.

I just cannot believe some of the things i read on here.

[Zhade]

38. I had a straight friend in high school who shared a bed with our gay friend on a trip...

…because otherwise the guy would not have been able to go. Louis never even blinked, he knew our friend wasn't a rapist or anything.

I am so tired of gay panic from people who claim to be open-minded. If you're not a gay guy, I have no interest in you!

[Salmonslayer]

30. Ok

"At some point in their life every man has been seen by a gay man and every woman has been seen by a lesbian. That is, unless you come from some weird religious sect that causes bodies to be shielded at all times, from birth. And somehow you have all survived."

True, but the same could be said about straight women being seen by straight men, yet, they have separate shower facilities.

"Gay men and women are NOT predators. They are NOT checking out every straight person thinking " Ooo I bet I could give him teh gay".

I did not day that gay men and women were predators. In fact I said they are no different from straight men and women. which is my point. I don't think gays are checking out every straight person, just like I do not check out every woman.

Note that in my posts I have equated the behavior of straights and gays. Yet, I seem to be accused of suggesting that gays are predators.

It would seem like a PITA to separate gays and straights. I doubt it will happen and I don't think it is necessary.

Still no answer to my question, Why is it OK to have separate shower facilities for men and women in the military. Isn't this segregation?

[Tailormyst]

34. To answer your last question:

Since the beginning of time women have been victimized by men and therefore have every right to expect some privacy. It is that easy.

The only place straight men are being victimized by gay men is in their own imaginations.

[Zhade]

39. Have you not heard about how many female soldiers have been sexually assaulted over the years?

Especially in the last decade?

We are animals, and some men are predators. But you're not hearing about men getting raped by other men, so I'd say it's obvious why men and women don't shower together.

[Toasterlad]

42. As Others Have Said, There Is a Safety Concern Between Men and Women

A man who is showering with another man generally does not - and should not - have the same safety concerns that a woman would have in the same situation. The fact is, men are generally more physically powerful than women, and men have historically used that power to rape and abuse women.

In a male/male shower situation, I can assure you from personal experience, the gay male is far more at risk physically than the straight male.

While I have some degree of sympathy for straight men who do not wish to be oggled like meat by gay men when they're naked in the shower, I can again assure you - again from personal experience - that gay men are generally extremely conscious of propriety in a locker room (far more so than most straight men) and will go to great lengths NOT to make other men uncomfortable. Your experience with gay men staring at you unabashedly with erections is far from the norm.

I'm glad you brought this up, and that we've been able to discuss it rationally. Too often, I feel that gay people dismiss the legitimate issues that straight people regarding showering with gays, just as straight people too often react hysterically on the same issue.

[Spazito]

32. Wow! Your post hits almost every homophobic stereotypical talking point....

the only one I can see you missed is the 'pedophile' one. You even managed to get the "hollywood" talking point in there as well. Congrats :puke:

[Forkboy]

33. I suspect your entire post is bullshit.

[FreeState]

49. You might want to read the expert testimony from yesterdays Prop 8 Trial on Stigmatizing GLBT people

Because aware of it or not thats what your post just did.

http://prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/14/liveblogging-day-4-part-iv-afternoon-session-begins/

Counsel: Define stigma.

M: I’ll be very brief because it’s a huge subject. Succinctly, group in society that has a negative attribute that is seen by society that results in their being “devalued.” Gay and lesbian people, the whole person is identified by the attribute that is devalued so the person feels devalued. In other words, the stigma devalues the entire person, not just an aspect of that person.

M: Structural stigma refers to more solid structures in society such as the law and any other institution that is central in our society. Law has a major role in determining the goods that society can provide to citizens. Laws may block or foster access to those resources. Stigmatized groups may be controlled by society from access to those institutions or goods, in this case marriage.

Counsel (Dusseault): Are there stigmas attached to gays and lesbians and what are they?

M: My work deals with the roles assigned by stigma. For example, that gay people are incapable of intimate relationships, don’t desire those relationships and may be incapable of such relationships. This is what society says. Intimate relations means marriage, husband, wife, family and community. In all of those, gay people have been described as pariahs, incapable of having those relationships, maybe even undesirable citizens....

[JackintheGreen]

10. I love the thing about banning port calls

What about banning port calls to heteros in countries where prostitution or sex before marriage is outlawed.

What gets me is the (probably fair) assumption that soldiers in port are foremost looking to get some tail, and that it's ok to do so illegally so long as it's only women being trafficked.

[Zhade]

40. Damn good point. I'm sick of the homophobia.

Oh, and orahma? Thanks for breaking another promise. Asshole.

[Faux pas]

11. ...

:wow: :wtf: :cry:

[rbixby]

14. I have a feeling that things will be a bit tough once DADT is repealed

But all those super homophobic types in the military will just have to get over it.

[eppur_se_muova]

16. The "Separate But Equal" Brigade?

How'd you like to be the defense attorney for that case? :evilgrin:

Oh, wait, the Pentagon hasn't said anything about equal. My bad.

[Arugula Latte]

17. Oh FFS!!

I cannot fucking believe this is even being considered for a fraction of a second. :grr:

[dgibby]

18. This is the kind of thinking you get when the military has been overtaken

by the radical right and fundies. I spent 22 years in the military and was never hit on by someone of my same sex. This is ridiculous beyond belief.

[mainer]

19. Interesting. Didn't the ancient Greeks have just-gay divisions?

I seem to remember reading that gay soldiers were kept in a segregated unit that was renowned for its fierceness.

[mainer]

20. "Sacred Band of Thebes"

wikipedia has an entry on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

[Tailormyst]

22. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[krispos42]

41. That last point is interesting.

"...and what to do about troops who are stationed or make port calls in nations that outlaw homosexuality."


The rest of it is bullshit, the gaspings and whining about "tradition", but that last point makes me wonder how the military deals with similar situations currently. For example, what would happen if a US sailor that was female when on shore leave in, say, Saudi Arabia. If she didn't wear the head-to-toe burka (?), can the Saudi morality police arrest and punish her?


Can any DU veterans tell me?



Although it seems that the UK and a few other countries that have already had gays in their respective militaries would be able to offer their experiences with this.

[PSzymeczek]

46. US military women in uniform

in Saudi Arabia were considered to be equivalent to men for the duration of their tour. As an Army civilian, I had to buy an abaya (the black robe and head scarf) when I was on temporary duty there. But we no longer have any US military personnel in Saudi Arabia.

[FreeState]

48. Not really IMO

Im not a veteran or have I served in the Military however I live around a lot of Military (San Diego) and I know a lot of GLBT Military. These brave men and women already go into countries that outlaw the expression of their love. They know what the local laws and customs are and are not open when in a country that has bigoted laws.

Women do not have to put on a Burka when they are serving as a service member in any country.

[1awake]

44. I see no reason

for segregation... but then I see no reason why the sexual orientation of someone has anything to do with serving in the military. What does one have to do with the other?

[ddeclue]

45. Let me guess: The officers will be straight?

:eyes: