Isn't it an insult to assume people will riot if we give them supplies?

[happy_liberal]

Isn't it possible the people would be grateful and cooperative? I think the people that believe that they will just riot and attack each other are being racist and playing right along with the awful media.

Just like New Orleans, they said the same crap, but people were 'looting' then sharing the supplies with everyone. They were taking care of each other, not attacking each other. The media plays up the looting and the fighting because they are racist, but what is DU's excuse?

If England had a huge natural disaster, would we withhold supplies from them, saying if we dropped food they would all riot, so sorry we cannot?

[spanone]

1. you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

[Cleita]

2. Exactly, you are right particularly since the Haitians up until now have

been helping rescue each other, rather than rioting. Get food and water to them ASAP.

[Uzybone]

3. Just rain packets of trail mix and gatorade on them

[Hugabear]

4. The people running around with guns and machetes are just there to keep the peace

:sarcasm:

I don't think that anybody is saying that everyone would riot and attack each other if we just drop-shipped supplies. But there are some that would rush in to take everything they could for themselves, to put themselves in a position of power. There are already armed gangs in certain areas, that much is a reality. We can't just pretend that suddenly everyone is going to come together and sing Kumbaya.

[Hannah Bell]

41. there are armed gangs in every major city in the world. so what?

[Hugabear]

45. If what happened in Haiti were to happen in any major city, you'd have the same results

If Los Angeles, New York City, Rio De Janerio, Beijing, Manila, or any other major city were destroyed by an earthquake, then yes you'd have similar problems. There would be hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of desperate people clamoring for supplies. It's not human nature for people to form an orderly queue and simply wait their turn. We've all witnessed people trying to cut in line for mundane things like cafeteria food or the latest blockbuster movie. Now imagine that your life depends on it.

You have to have security to keep people from trampling each other to death, and to keep those with ulterior motives and the most guns from simply taking everything.

[BeFree]

5. It is an insult

The crap here is simply astounding.

I am reminded of the old German saying about that I didn't complain when they came for the Jews, because I was not Jewish...

Put any of these people in that rubble and then see which side they would take.
The one side is STFU, and the other is Hurry TFU.

Its fine to support our troops, et al, but to blindly accept what is happening given the history of Katrina, is just plain wrong.

[blondeatlast]

6. Is it insulting to be human?

Ever been clinically dehydrated (as opposed to just really thirsty)?

You will do ANYTHING to get the water you need--and your strength is surprisingly immense.

Survival works like that.

[Catshrink]

8. Desperate people do desperate things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. No it is not... it is in the disaster managers handbook

insert nation here, because perhaps it has happened?

These things are there because somebody has died.

Chew on that.

I guess when I wrote the section for ahem zone security while in the Mexican Red Cross I was being racist... who knew? So were the two planners from the army and the one from the police.

[Cleita]

9. I have to disagree with you on this one because much of

those incidents that have the authorities cautious about happened in war zones where people were already agitated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You can disagree, but zone security IS in the handbook

whether it is FEMA writing it, or me, or your local town.

You don't see it that often, but we already have seen ISOLATED incidents of this in Haiti... which don't surprise me. The isolated incidents are just a reminder...

Most of the time, in most disasters you will see some of this if the disaster lasts long enough. Why do you think your local town puts your local cops on full 12 on 12 off shifts and goes on tactical alert when you have a disaster or expect one?

Their role is security. And yes, they are supposed to get the riot control gear out if things get bad. Their mere presence is usually enough to keep that under control. Why if we had this happen in the UK, the mere presence of the bobies will also keep things under control.

Unfortunately, as one of my instructors put it... all you need to get a situation going is an idiot in the crowd with a loud voice.

[Hekate]

29. Cleita, I usually don't argue with you, but the Haitians are already pretty agitated. nt

[Cleita]

53. It seems they have started to hand out aid.

MSNBC actually has news on today instead of the usual prison docs and they are showing aid getting through. Let's hope the problem will start to reverse as people get the help they need. What I'm concerned about is that the psychology of fear seems to be trumping common sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. This means the security that they needed is there already

that is the translation

And they started doing this yesterday... what you are seeing is this scaling up. Yesterday CNN showed this too.

[TeeYiYi]

67. This is good news. nt

TYY :thumbsup:

[TeeYiYi]

12. Nadinbrzezinski, bear with me on this question...

...but, if the machete wielders start acting up and stealing rations, couldn't our marines just shoot them and make examples of them?

Wouldn't that go a long way toward restoring order in a hurry?...

TYY :)

[Catshrink]

13. The US military is under orders not to use force.

They are there for humanitarian relief.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I know they are

And there is a reason for that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. If they shoot them in self defense perhaps

but the problem you have is the rumors... it can easily go the other way where the strict humanitarian situation becomes Somalia Part II. That is the thin line they are walking.

Remember the Marines did shoot in self defense in Solalia and a few of the leaders of the equivalent used that to rile people.

So the lesson from Somalia, I am betting, is that the Marines and the Army will be used, but in strict contact with the locals they will use MPs, and the cops that are pouring in with local cops...

[BeFree]

21. Oh

So it is bad for us to equate this with Katrina, but it's OK to equate it with Somalia?

Bzzzzzzzzzzzt!!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. Yes.

[Hekate]

17. DUers would riot and break their keyboards if a US Marine fired on a crowd.

[TeeYiYi]

23. ...made me laugh!

TYY :rofl:

[laughingliberal]

48. +1 nt

[vadawg]

85. from experience that only works on limited numbers, now what happens in reality is

that you get a few guys with machetes backed up with thousands of women and unarmed guys who just want supplies, unless you have a lot of security they will just roll over you unless you are prepared to kill a lot of unarmed people.. through experience we know that as nice as it sounds that we will get supplies and everyone will line up and wit their turn it just dosent work that way.

[KittyWampus]

10. It is literally impossible that ALL people would patient and cooperative. It's an absolute given

that SOME people would muscle their way to the front and grab all they can.

People are people.

Desperate people are desperate people.

In every group of people there are always going to be the aggressive and abusive reptiles.

In a disaster, the 'reptile quotient" rises because people are in survival mode which is literally what our reptilian brain is geared for.

[Individualist]

14. It is,

and it's disgusting to see O'Really's comments repeated in this forum.

[Hugabear]

34. I see

So it's wrong to think that dropping a bunch of food and supplies into a situation where there are millions of desperate people - some of whom are already armed - might cause problems? It's wrong to assume that human nature is the same in Haiti as in most places?

[pipi_k]

16. I would say the same thing about England, or Australia, or the

whitest of the white part of any place in the US, so don't even try to play the "racist" card, OK?


People are thirsty. They're hungry...starving.

If you don't think people under those circumstances wouldn't riot, then you've never seen how disgusting people in THIS country can act just over some stupid pre-Christmas big name store sales.


In the immediate aftermath of a disaster, the first inclination is to look for survivors.

In the ensuing days, the focus shifts to survival.


and it's not at all "insulting" to suggest that people will act in some pretty unruly ways if their very survival is at stake.


But hey...try it out for yourself sometime.

In fact, I would suggest you take a trip to Haiti and just randomly hand out food and water. See what happens and report back to us.

[havocmom]

19. Considering there are reliable reports of fuel merchants keeping pumps off while prices rise...

one MUST address some realities about human nature.

A) Not everyone is well meaning. Some people will take advantage of less fortunate. (See American economic system if you have doubts)

B) People who have NOTHING to loose and are in danger of dying for lack of food and water will usually drop normal social constraints to attain what they need.

It is naive to think everyone would share equally in drops of supplies, then sing "Kumbaya" and go plant a food crop joint venture.

[blondeatlast]

20. So they manage to drop water and food into Port-au-Princein the next moment.

There is no security on the ground.

Do you REALLY want to see what happens, because I guarantee the msm will REVEL in wht happens next. But if you have the slightest delicateness of sensibility, you'd better turn the tube off.

I do not want to see what happens next.

I've been starved and dehydrated due to illness. I managed to fight off my 6'4 college basketball father---at the age of SEVEN.

IT IS NOT INSULTING TO REALIZE THAT WIDESPREAD VIOLENCE WILL BREAK OUT; humans are programmed to survive, just as I was.

[BeFree]

22. You were attacked

We are there to help.
To equate the two is preposterous.

[Catshrink]

25. I don't think desperate people would make the distinction.

[blondeatlast]

30. No, einstein, I ATTCKED my father while he was trying to help. I was delirious.

So are a great many Haitians tright now.

You are being utterly , deliberately obtuse. this isn't a political stunt--stop making it one.

[BeFree]

35. Ooops, my bad

So you are saying the Haitians are delirious and will attack those coming with help? You are the real Einstein? You got this all figured out and I should just STFU?

[blondeatlast]

37. Yes, I have this all figured out but no, you should NOT STFU.

Keep spreading your stupidity all over the 'nets. It looks good on you.

[BeFree]

55. Now I am stupid?

For wanting the very best for the Haitians?
For not trusting the military?

My gawd how things have changed on DU.

[blondeatlast]

59. If you want the very best for the Haitians, you wouldn't be suggesting we cause harm to

the recovery effotts and Haitian people.

so yes, you are stupid. go ahead and alert.

[BeFree]

65. Where?

Where did I suggest causing harm? Nowhere.
What I am suggesting is that the help get there faster and better.
What's wrong about that?
What harm can possibly come from that?

[pipi_k]

42. Yeah, people without food/water for a number of days WILL attack

someone come to help them.

Have you ever been without food or water for more than one day? Seen your family killed, had your entire home and everything in it destroyed?

You think someone in that position is going to act with much decorum and delicacy?


Here's what can happen after a period of time without proper hydration


http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j33/dehydrated.asp

[bertman]

70. excellent article, pipi_k. Thanks for posting the link. I just enjoyed a cup of water.

[KittyWampus]

33. Okay drop a box of iPods into a crowd waiting outside a Walmart just before Their Xmas Door-Busters

you think people would merrily just stand in line waiting their turn for a chance to get one?

[Hekate]

24. Over & over & over in my lifetime I have seen news footage of RIOTS to get food & water in famine &

... disaster zones. Men TRAMPLING women and children to get the pails of water and bags of rice. Men trying to KILL the aid workers, and sometimes succeeding.

And then there are the starving people who believe a rumor that the strange ALIEN UNKNOWN food products are spoiled, or even actually poisoned, and they THROW THEM AWAY.

Actually, panicked mobs are far from grateful. They are panicky mobs.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. and your second point HAPPENED yesterday

with World Food EMRATS.

I went... not shocked, why the Mexican Navy is bringing bags of rice and beans... but damn it those ships take time to get there.

[KittyWampus]

36. upthread someone mentioned the crowds in America at Walmarts for their Christmas DoorBusters

that's in America. People with food and shelter. And money.

And look how they can act.

For a toy or electronic device.

[blondeatlast]

39. That's a good, understandable analogy. But it will blow right past the

agenda-driven.

[laughingliberal]

46. +1 nt

[TeeYiYi]

43. All points well taken...

... but this situation seems to be evolving into a double-edged sword. The mobs might not be so panicky if basic supplies had been delivered sooner. Water, food and morphine.

I know mine is the unpopular opinion here, but I think there has to be a better way to go about delivering help to traumatized people following a major disaster.

TYY

[blondeatlast]

44. The point is--they COULDN'T be. Haiti There was virtually no infrastructure on MONDAY.

Ther earthquake was on Tuesday.

[Hugabear]

50. If you could predict these things well in advance, then yes there might be

It's difficult enough to respond quickly enough given plenty of advance notice, such as a hurricane. And I'm not just talking about the post-Katrina debacle. People forget about the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew, when you had incidents of armed street gangs terrorizing survivors. Heck, even after Hurricane Charley, it took some time for aid to get in.

[TeeYiYi]

60. Responding in a timely manner is one thing...

... but you make a good point about the ability to predict these things well in advance. It would seem to me that we already know that disasters are going to happen. They keep happening from what I've seen.

Maybe the Pentagon needs to put together a task force to figure out a better, faster, more spontaneous way to respond to an unpredicted disaster once it rears its ugly head.

I don't think we can ever rely on receiving advance warning.

TYY

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. This is physical time

that takes to get things moving

Look at the Comfort, it is JUST NOW sailing.

Why? It takes physical time to prep her, read load all the crap.

Hell the Huasteco left yesterday from Veracruz, she got underway faster since she is a much SMALLER ship... and it still took her physical days to get ready to sail.

It will take both ships four days to get to Haiti.

That is the way it is.

And for perspective, when was the last time ANY city lost 140K people in an instant? August 6th 1945. Granted that was war, and man made, but perhaps this will help to get some perspective of the enormity of this.

[TeeYiYi]

73. I think the response to Haiti...

... has been a vast improvement over what happened with Katrina. And that's saying a mouthful considering the logistical nightmare of Haiti's infrastructure.

I have a question NB... In your opinion, if a disaster the magnitude of Katrina were to happen to New York or Los Angeles, do you think the relief response would be the same or different?

TYY

[Hekate]

69. Here is some info on the emergency role of various government agencies (including military)

Gathered by our own Straight Story

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7466992

[Hekate]

71. Direct Relief had medical supplies ALREADY there, but on a boat in the harbor...

Strangely enough, they've been unable to unload the goddam thing because every crane attached to the docks has broken off into the ocean.

And so it goes in the world of disaster relief.

Hekate

[TeeYiYi]

75. Thanks Hekate...

... I hadn't heard that. Crazy... :(

And thanks for the link to Straight Story's thread. I'll go check it out.

TYY

[pipi_k]

62. First response in a disaster...

Find survivors.

While that's happening, coordinate relief.

It's a whole lot easier to get relief to people when they have more than one operational airport.

Plus there was the problem of aftershocks endangering the lives of everyone. Why should volunteer relief workers be willing to die?

[happy_liberal]

79. "The mobs might not be so panicky if basic supplies had been delivered sooner. "

+10000

[Catshrink]

81. And how in the hell was that supposed to happen

when the airport is woefully inadequate and the port inoperable? Things are happening as fast as possible -- do you think aid agencies are purposely dragging their feet? Does your naivete know no limits?

[happy_liberal]

82. air drops- you remember people saying it couldn't be done?

apparently it is possible, maybe they should have done it sooner instead of assuming people would riot if helped.

[Catshrink]

83. But they need to get the supplies that will be airdropped to Haiti.

The air traffic control tower was damaged, the airport is small, the port is inoperable. But you're definitely right, water grows on trees and choppers materialize out of thin air. Better get those Disney DVDs before they go back in the vault.

[Pavulon]

84. Drop what? Good feelings..

man you guys are a riot. Have to have stuff to drop to people. Have to decide what people get drops, and which dont. You dont know shit about who is doing what and why and presume to second guess. Pretty arrogant.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

27. No, it is the reality of human nature,

One that has been born out time and again in the past.

[piedmont]

31. No, it's not. nt

[tonysam]

32. Yeah, it is an insult.

It's also an insult for DUers to belittle the tragedy in New Orleans to pump up how tragic Haiti's situation is because of the number of casualties, because of infrastructure. I maintain it's nothing more than propaganda of the worst sort. You're no better off if you're dead or homeless in New Orleans, Bangladesh, Indonesia, or anyplace else.

Tragedy knows NO political boundaries.

[Hugabear]

40. Is it naive to think that people will put aside human nature, and work together in peace and harmony

It might be idealistic to think that desperate people would put aside human nature, and work together in peace and harmony?

[blondeatlast]

47. They can't if they are delirious from hunger and thirst.

I know it all sounds so easy, but have you been around a delirious person? They make little to no sense--and can be incredibly strong.

Now multiply that by 1000 or more and maybe you can see why some security needs to be in place.

As bad as it is, the carnage would be 1000X worse with no security.

[laughingliberal]

51. That's 100% correct

We have got to get necessities in without risking further loss of life. I wonder how many of the critics here have ever been exposed to the kind of infrastructure issues we are seeing and a population of desperately compromised people. The Haitian government (what there is of it) is working to direct aid to the areas most in need first. Our military is very competent in these situations but it is still not a country or countryside with which they are familiar.

[Hugabear]

52. Some people don't want to admit that

I don't know if they think it makes them sound racist to think that Haitians might riot, trample each other, or take advantage of a bad situation for their own gain. It's not racist at all, it's human nature. Happens in any situation where you have a large population competing for a scarce amount of resources.

[EFerrari]

38. There's more than one thing going on here so yes it is and no, it's not.

[Obamanaut]

49. Have you never seen video footage of people trampling over one

another to get grain, rice, water, etc?

Throw some thugs with machetes into the mix and you get chaos.

It's the real world, not always pretty, but real.

[lunatica]

56. Survival mode is a very complex and complicated thing

1. There's the survival mode of finding food or water, not only for you but for your extended family and especially for the children and the hurt.
2. There's the survival mode of thinking you will kill others so you can get yours
3. There's the mode of knowing number 2 are out there so you go into defensive survival mode which becomes violent the moment someone tries to shove you aside.
4. There's the mode of knowing that if you don't push someone aside you will die or your child will die.
5. There's a point where if you feel you're losing ground to someone who is clawing at you and pushing you aside you suddenly start clawing at others the same way.
6. Standing patiently in line will get completely disrupted by a single person who goes into a violent survival mode.

I and everyone here would go into survival mode under the right circumstances. Even those of us who just want to wait patiently in line. It would take one person to start it. Just one person starting to claw their way to the front of the line would trigger the survival mode in everyone else.

Thinking otherwise is delusional

[Catshrink]

57. Maslow...

[lunatica]

63. Interesting. I googled Maslow and got this graphic

and learned something new. Thanks!

[Catshrink]

66. It's important in education...

hard to teach a kid who doesn't have food, security, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Well if you JUST SAW the not so surprising VIDEO RIGHT NOW

on MSNBC that would be YOUR clue.

[votingupstart]

68. Isnt it naive to think that starving/injured/thirsty people will wait in nice ordely lines?

oh and while they might be "insulted" in your view they will not get trampled, hurt, kicked, stabbed, cut, robbed, or murdered -- so take your pick.

people in the US trample each other for a 50% off coupon at Wal-Mart --- WTF makes you think that starving / thirsty / injured / scared / frightened people in an area of severe devastation would somehow all remain orderly, focused, organized and calm?

[bertman]

72. This OP is so ridiculous that I'm not even going to respond to it. Oh wait . . .

[qazplm]

74. its human nature

and the tough morality of life and death survival. It would happen here too. Yes, I believe if something on this scale happened in England somehow, that yes there would be food riots.

There were food riots just recently in Haiti BEFORE the earthquake were there not.

[Hekate]

76. Tell ya what: you go over there with a box full of food, walk into the city alone &report back.

Make sure it's a big, visible, refrigerator-sized box so a whole bunch of people can see what you have.

[happy_liberal]

77. So they are doing air drops now, and the Haitians are waiting patiently for water?

I guess the Haitians deserve more credit than DUers were willing to give them?

[Xenotime]

78. That's the right wing fear mongering way of thinking.

[A HERETIC I AM]

80. Moon water.

Moon water is the answer.



.












.




I had to say this because these threads all seem to have the identical lack of understanding as the threads about us "bombing the moon" and finding water a couple months ago did.

So.....moon water. That will solve everything.

[JVS]

86. It's not the people who you give food to who riot, it's the people who think that you're going to...

run out of food before they get any who riot.

Then it becomes a horrible version of musical chairs where the participants are convinced that the loser won't eat.