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How many "centrists" would criticize the Party if it moved left?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:04 PM
Original message
How many "centrists" would criticize the Party if it moved left?
Would you complain that the Party is too progressive and too liberal and threaten to sit out the next election? Or would you continue to support the Party?

So, where would the Party be damaged? If the centrists continued to vote for the Party and the liberals and progressives voted for the Party, where would they lose votes? Then where is the argument about moving left and to a more progressive type of Party?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'll support this party if it runs left all the way to Socialism.
I'm no centrist by any stretch, but I don't hate the prez, either.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Agreed. I was hoping to go all the way left under Obama.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. If Indies vote Brown in, it won't be because they see Dems as centrist.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. If you're talking about people at DU, then no, there would be no
complaint. But DU doesn't represent the electorate very well. In the broader field, what you suggest would be the case, in some areas. Evidence for that comes by looking at the current makeup of Congress. Even though Democrats have a decent majority right now, that majority includes a number of people who are only marginally liberal.

Education in the places where those marginal Democrats and Republicans come from is the only way to change the makeup of Congress. Fail to support the marginal Democrats and it is certain that they will be replaced by Republicans. There's no question about it. The Congress has fluctuated in its majority leaning many times, just within my 64 years.

The battle to shift this country in a progressive direction is a long one, and not one that can be changed quickly or with easy to understand measures. Our Blue Dog Democrats are not particularly liberal, especially in some areas, but they can often be pressured to vote for liberal measures in many cases.

Health care isn't one of those. That's why we have such a pitiful HCR measure about to be adopted. It's a huge issue, and one that splits right down the middle, so it's very difficult to get what we at DU know would be a far better system. Impossible right now. More impossible if additional Republicans are elected.

Education at the local level where the balance is even is the only path. And that's a local thing. Progressives in areas where either party can win or lose on a whim are the ones who need to be working to educate the voters. Only locals can do it. But, they can do it.

So, again, DU does not represent the electorate. It's not even close.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. The only thing I can conceive of:-- If you are committed to appeasing
the Republican Party, then it might hurt you.

What hurts Democrats more than anything IMO: A Perception
that we try to be All Things to ALL People and therefore
stand for nothing. If you believe in something you appear
so much more confident and have a better opportunity
to persuade people you just might be correct. Trying to
blur the lines between Democrats and Republicans. I call
these the "Me Toos" therefore affirming the GOP position.





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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. I would happily support a far left Democratic party.
As much as I currently support the current centrist Democratic party. Because the alternative to the Democratic party is wingnut Repukes.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. I know people don't want to hear this - but we've already seen a left-leaning DNC.
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 05:01 PM by Drunken Irishman
And it's what dominated the party from late-60s until the early-90s. And when I say liberal, we've got to make a distinction here. Because you will find contradictions in that term throughout the base of the Democratic Party. Which, ultimately, played a role in the party's downturn after dominating American politics from the Roosevelt administration until Johnson was corrupted by Vietnam.

What happened in the wake of that is that many saw the Democratic Party as left-leaning and only serving three social groups: blacks, women and wealthy liberals. That was what defined the Democratic Party in the post-60s era and it slowly began to dwindle its support on a national level.

Now you've got to understand something. Prior to Roosevelt, the Democratic Party was very ideological and lacked a true cohesion at the national level. Which explains the fact that from Andrew Johnson (a Democrat who succeeded Lincoln after his assassination) to FDR, there was only one successful Democratic president. That, of course, being Woodrow Wilson.

Sure, you had Grover Cleveland thrown in there - but he was ho-hum and actually lost his reelection bid before coming back and winning a second term (the only thing he's probably known for now). Beyond that, though, the Democrats struggled at attaining the presidency. In fact, struggling is putting it lightly. Hell, had it not been for California in the 1916 election (a state Wilson won by only .3%), Wilson is a one-termer and the Republicans continue their domination.

Even with that win, though, Republicans held the presidency all but sixteen years from 1869 to 1929. Ridiculous, right?

Then Roosevelt came in and totally reshaped the party at the national level. He was able to bring together ideologies and the party went from dominating just one region to establishing itself a real national party.

From 1933 to 1963 (30 years), the Democrats were only out of the White House for eight years (Eisenhower). That is a remarkable stretch and would not have happened hadn't Roosevelt created a more inclusive party.

Granted, many on DU believe Roosevelt to be the epitome of liberalism. Except he wasn't. Not by today's standards. He inched - but was far from progressive - when it came to civil rights. He was a life-long free-trader (which in today's liberal communities would be grounds for dismissal) and propped up capitalism, even though he had a legitimate reason to move the country away from it. The system had failed and a far more progressive president probably could have come in and gutted the system in favor of what has been created in many European countries.

He didn't, though.

That isn't to say Roosevelt wasn't progressive. He was. But even back in the 30s, many progressives and populists (read what Huey Long has to say about the FDR administration) didn't like him. They felt he wasn't liberal enough (eek, sound familiar?) or wasn't doing enough (again, sound familiar?).

But the Democratic Party was an open-tent back then. It had southern conservatives and liberal north-easterners and they fought like hell - but the Democratic Party WAS the United States government. It owned the Senate. It owned the House. And it certainly owned the presidency.

Then things began to shift in the 1960s.

You had liberal Democrats pushing for civil rights. The southerners rebelled. It ruined the Democratic Party in the south and purged many southern voters from the party. In the short-term, not a bad thing. They were racists that had to be dealt with. But only a fool would suggest it didn't hurt the Democratic Party in the long-run.

What happened beyond that, though, was a mighty backlash from White America. Not necessarily total bigots - but disenfranchised blue collar Democrats who felt the Democratic Party was losing interest in their causes.

Now that sounds similar to what many suggest today. But it isn't quite the same. Many blue collar Democrats were a bit racist and socially conservative. They were military men. They probably fought in WWII - or were the sons and daughters of those who fought in WWII. They were pro-military. Probably supported the Vietnam War. They were not anti-capitalism, but pro-union.

They weren't liberal, though.

Not by today's definition anyway.

So out of the unrest of the 60s came a longing for stability. You had civil rights and women rights. You had anti-war protesters and a slew of moral issues taking control of the American political scene.

Out of that, a new coalition of Democratic voters were formed. They weren't New Deal Democrats anymore. Kennedy and Johnson were the last New Deal presidents. They were civil rights leaders and women's rights leaders. The local leaders weren't the Big City, blue collar, Irish-Catholic types anymore. They were affluent limousine liberals.

They fought for equal pay. They fought the war. They fought the establishment once it became clear they weren't the establishment anymore.

Then these voters from the rust belt cities - voters brought into the fold a generation ago with Roosevelt - started rethinking the party. The Democratic Party wasn't for them anymore. In the 70s, it appeared to be a party owned by the liberal-wing.

Rightfully or not, that was the perception. The perception was that the Democratic Party was not a big-tent party anymore. Add the social aspect and you get an even bigger rift between a good swath of America and the modern Democratic Party.

The 1970s was all about creating stability after the turbulent 60s.

It also saw the beginning of social politics. Abortion. Guns. Sex. God and though not exactly social - war.

In every category, the Democrats were hurt because many of their leaders were seen as too liberal on those issues.

So what happened? Well they left the party and then the party was only made up of blacks, affluent whites and socially aware women.

That was it. Blue collar voters might have stayed registered Democratic - but they voted Republican. The South was long gone. Nixon came and played on their fears. It worked. He won in a landslide - twice!

If it had not been for Watergate, Carter never sees the White House and the Republicans most likely dominate from the late-60s to the early-90s.

Not a bad stretch for a party a few decades earlier was on its last leg.

There were candidates like George McGovern - who ran as a peace candidate. And Walter Mondale - who openly told Americans he would raise their taxes. The Democrats still managed to do well enough at the local level, but only because of some conservative holdovers in the south and the Big City machines in the NE.

But nationally, they were doomed. McGovern wasn't going to beat Nixon. He was far too liberal. Mondale wasn't quite as liberal, but he fit the liberal stereotype - affluent white man who seems out of touch with the country. Hell, Dukakis was tagged with that too and it doomed him against the inept Bush campaign.

The only reason the Democratic Party became a player again is because Bill Clinton realized they weren't winning with the old play book. Instead of talking about the poor and the working class, he talked about the middle class. It was genius really.

I mean, who wants to consider themselves working class? No one. When someone hears that term, which had been used over and over by Democratic candidates throughout the 70s and 80s, they thought 'working poor'. But they weren't working poor. They couldn't connect with the working poor - even though they were pretty much working class. Because, whether Americans there wanted to believe it or not, there wasn't a lick of difference between working class and middle class. They both were sandwiched in between the poor and the rich.

So Clinton decided to use the term middle class. It gussied it up. The silent majority. Hard-working Americans who felt they were left by the Democratic Party years ago and voted Republican because the Republicans promised lower taxes and were in line with their social views.

1992 was not about social issues like the elections of 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984 and 1988. It was mostly about the economy and that's where Democrats generally do well. Clinton articulated a message that hit home with Middle America. A group of Americans who don't fit the conservative or liberal definition. Because they're neither conservative or liberal.

Granted, Clinton had a lot of help in that campaign, but he won. He became the first Democrat since Roosevelt to win re-election. He redefined the Democratic Party and though he gets slammed for being 'too moderate' and taking the Democratic Party too far to the right - but what the Democrats were doing before wasn't working.

They were reverting back to their pre-Roosevelt days of doing well locally, but hardly being a national party.

Now DUers need to ask themselves - what do they want? The 1980s Democratic Party (which was more liberal, but failed in every national election) or today's Democratic Party (which might not be as liberal, but won the WH in 2008 with the highest vote total since LBJ's landslide in 1964)?

There has to be concessions. You can't have the perfect ideological party or you're going to lose a huge number of voters.

That's why there should be compromise.

But that's a bad word here...

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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not a centrist, but I'm in favor of finding out---NOW. nt
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Let's move left until Dennis Kucinich is "moderate-left". nt.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. In Soviet America, Kucinich votes for you!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. How many "centrists" would pitch a fit if it represented the CENTER?
I'm not talking about the halfway point between our conservatives and their conservatives. I'm talking about majority positions on issue polls.

My guess is that they would have a collective cow and start shrieking about communism.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. I know of nobody suggesting that they wouldn't prefer more liberal/left policies
What I do see are a lot of people who agree with Obama that the country was headed right for so long that we currently have many elected Democrats from red states that just won't risk their seats on liberal legislation. This concept is so easy a caveman could understand it - why is it so difficult for many DUers to understand?
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. They'd probably just rejoin the republicks
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Centrists" and "moderates" have one rule of voting.
Never vote for anything or anyone that is liberal. This is why the moderate Democrats were known as Reagan Democrats, because they voted for him and his policies and coterie willingly. As they have for many Republicans, from Bush to Arnold to, well, any of them that run against that which is 'too liberal' which means various things to various people, none of whom will say exactly what they mean by it. They are moderate, and disagree with liberals, but not on things they will name in polite company, which gives you a clue to their idea of 'liberal'.
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M155Y_A1CH Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
15. Would they be pro marijuana?
Just wishful thinking, sorry.
I'm a bit of a Yellow Dog myself.
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