To all who's theory is: Martha Coakley is a bad campaigner.

[Little Star]

Your theory does not hold water.

Massachusetts Dems and Independents liked Martha’s campaigning style well enough to elect her Attorney General. Dems liked her campaigning style well enough to give her the primary win.

Helloooooo. We elected John (the great campaigner) Kerry over and over since 1984. And before that we elected him Leiutenant Govorner. How about Dukakis? We quite obviously don’t have a problem with wonkish, dull or bad campaigning. We are MA not VT, NJ, CT or any other state. We are who we are, not what your imagination dreams up. For proof that your theories do not hold water, look at our past record.

So, just how do these facts fit in with the narrative you have been trying to sell here for days?????

[Jennicut]

1. I think Mass always liked the unassuming candidate, the narrative comes from the media

[cali]

5. yeah, the race really isn't tight.

and a statement like yours is a rather silly generalization. Tip O'Neill was a very colorful guy. So is Barney Frank. So was Teddy.

[Jennicut]

7. Eh, I forgot about them.

But it seems like Mass voters don't seem to care one way or another if the candidates they pick are the best campaigners in the world or just the unassuming type. Maybe Coakley just came off as a bad campaigner in the particular campaign. Personally, I would puke after having to sit through more then 5 minutes of Brown talking. Totally smarmy.

[Little Star]

9. No, Your rather silly generalization in the past two days is wrong.

[cali]

10. oh, yeah. that really shows me. and I didn't make a generalization, dearie.

[Little Star]

14. Grow up Cali.

[freddie mertz]

29. Indeed! Tip was my congressman...

At another time, so was Barney, And Ted was my Senator forever.

These were and are larger than life personalities.

Martha seems to be a nice person and I hope she wins, but according to my Mom, Brown ran a stronger campaign.

And that Schilling thing... wow.

[cali]

32. yeah, the Schilling thing. wow is right.

and the comment about standing out in the cold in front of Fenway shaking hands. She seems determined to piss off Red Sox Nation.

[freddie mertz]

41. Ted Kennedy and Tip O'Neill were hardcore Red Sox fans, like my Dad.

My Dad was a great liberal too.

When the Sox won the Series I cried like a baby, because my Dad, who grew up a few blocks from Fenway, lived his whole life never seeing that happen.

Non-Bostonians (non-New Englanders, even) cannot imagine the power of that mythology.

The Curse, the bloody sock.

[cali]

47. I don't think they understand that at all.

I do. I lived in Boston for ten years (well, Brighton, Brookline, Cambridge and Boston) And now Bill Lee lives just down the road from me! (Not that that has much to do with anything)

[freddie mertz]

52. TED Frakking WILLIAMS lived on my street when I was a boy.

So did Timothy Leary, as I found out later.

That's Boston for you (Newton in this case).

I have lived in Newton, Waltham, Brookline, Cambridge, Roxbury, Brighton, Amherst, and Northampton, and dated a girl in Worcester.

I got the Mass. thing in my DNA.

[dkf]

2. Dukakis gave my commencement speech.

All he talked about was health care. Sorry but I was not inspired.

[Little Star]

11. Thats my point. We elected him any way.

[cali]

16. and Tip. so unassuming. Barney?

Teddy?

your point is bullshit.

[Little Star]

17. Didn't say we ONLY like unassuming. Try reading.

[freddie mertz]

54. He was more impressive as a State Senator who visited my High School.

Eons ago.

Also, very good in this helicopter and sweater during the Blizzard of 78.

But then he lost to the Neanderthal, Ed King!

And THAT is Mass. for you!

[dkf]

81. Well honestly he could have given a speech in how to succeed in life or

Something uplifting. Instead we got a policy speech in a state which mandated employer coverage eons ago. I saw him on campus though and he smiled and said hi. That was more exciting than his speech.

[Mass]

3. Obviously, Kerry is a bad candidate. Just ask Weld.

This said, I agree that Coakley is a decent campaigner. She beat all other Dems in the primary.

It is just that it is easier to blame the candidate than to wonder why we are doing poorly in general.

[cali]

4. sorry, just because she's been elected as ag it doesn't de facto follow

that people are going to support her for U.S. Senate- though she seemed to take that for granted. Coakley was the prohibitive favorite less than a month ago. Oh, and primaries aren't general elections.

[Little Star]

19. Yeah she was. Her flip killed her. You help make my point.

[cali]

23. critical thinking is not your forte, I see.

Nothing I wrote made your point. Her flip may factor in, but so does her lack of campaigning and her string of silly gaffes like the startling claim that Schilling is a Yankees fan.

[Little Star]

26. pffffft.

[cali]

28. and you're telling me to grow up?

:rofl:

[Little Star]

33. pfffft

[geckosfeet]

6. She had been all but invisible until the debate last Monday.

Sitting on an expected (but not demonstrated) front runner status until the dikes are breached is a poor campaign strategy. Kerry has enjoyed significant leads in all his campaigns and his frontrunner strategy has been reasonable and successful. But in my memory, he has always campaigned more vigorously than Coakley.

Now we (volunteers) are all scrambling to try and bail her out because of self inflicted wounds.

[Little Star]

24. We are scrambling because she was forced to support HCR.

[cali]

35. Oh, bullshit. blaming it all on HC is ludicrous.

[Little Star]

45. Yeah, it had little to do with it. hahahahahaha

[elocs]

8. If, "if" she loses we are sure to hear from many who will make great efforts to explain it away

and to blame it on someone, but certainly not Coakley. After all, how could you ever blame a candidate for an election lost? If it is a real close loss we will hear how the election was stolen in that bastion of Republicanism that MA is.

But then again, maybe she will win and she will get lots of credit. Such a deal--either a blameless loss or a victory full congratulatory applause and bows.

[Little Star]

27. It's HCR, she was fine until she supported that.

[elocs]

80. "She supported that". So it is something she "did", a choice she made.

It is a valid point for the voters of MA to not support a candidate based upon a decision she made that they did not support.

[TheCowsCameHome]

12. Her big mistake was thinking a (D) automatically gets elected in MA

and not campaigning aggressively from the very first moment after the primaries. She was invisible fo far too long, and Brown seized the opportunity.

Scott Brown is riding the wave of dislike for what's been going on up on Beacon Hill.

I hope Martha Coakley pulls it off, but her campaign has got to be kicking themselves right now for letting it get this bad.

[Little Star]

42. Nice talking point but the facts say different.

Are you just assuming that her big mistake was thinking a (D) automatically gets elected in MA? If that is a fact please back it up.

[cali]

44. not any facts you've produced as you haven't produced any

[Little Star]

50. I at least produced some. You, not so much.

[cali]

53. you're a little confused, sweetie. you produced zero facts.

[Little Star]

59. pffffft

[TheCowsCameHome]

51. Only after Brown gained traction did she hit the serious campaign circuit.

He called her out, and it's been catch up ever since.

[Little Star]

55. Brown got that traction because of HCR.

[TheCowsCameHome]

57. Whatever it was, he certainly got something to gain such momentum

and hopefully we won't wind up paying the price tomorrow........

But he did like RomneyCare.

[RBInMaine]

13. Not so much a "bad" campaigner, it was that she DIDN'T campaign. You NEVER take it for granted.

That said, strong Dem GOTV can squeeze it out. GOTV is everything, and I hope she wins it in the endgame.

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. Amen.

[Buzz Clik]

18. Whatever. You get to live with your choice, and we feel the effects.

So, let's get really stupid and blame Obama.

(Remember when a lot of DUers were blaming the California African-American population for the passage of Prop 8? Don't you just love blaming people for stuff? It's so much easier than thinking and acting like mature adults.)

[Little Star]

37. My choice is Martha Coakley. So, huh?

[Buzz Clik]

49. +1!!

:thumbsup:

[pipi_k]

20. Well, that's not something I want to speculate on...

If she loses, it would probably be a good idea to ask Democrats who didn't vote for her WHY they didn't vote for her. For future state elections.

There could be lots of other reasons, and there probably are.


Although I do think the media are enjoying this little melodrama that they helped to create.

[Buzz Clik]

22. The media are not alone -- DU enjoys a good melodrama. (That's why this thread exists)

[pipi_k]

43. Hah!!! You're right...I forgot about that!

:7



Actually, the funny thing is...I'm not seeing the same sense of melodrama in my own state.

By all accounts, we should be falling all over ourselves, rending our clothing and ripping out our hair and gouging out our eyeballs, but people are just sort of going on about their business here.

Nobody is out on the streets bashing each other in the head with campaign signs. No fistfighting or food throwing.

No nastiness except for the usual shitty drivers yelling curses at each other, beeping and flipping each other off.

It's business as usual in Massachusetts.

:)

[MannyGoldstein]

21. Corzine & Deeds Were Also Bad Campaigners

As were most Democrats who ran from the time the DLC took over the Party until that %#$%ing @&$#er Dr. Dean stole it back temporarily.

Sincerely yours,

Rahm "Gee, I Just Always Have Really Bad Luck" Emanual

[chelsea0011]

25. Again, the media loves to point the finger at Coakley and say she has

run a bad campaign. It's their mantra. Do I wish she had done some things differently? Sure do. But this election is like most others. If your supporters get out to vote, they have a solid chance of winning. If Democrats show up at the booths, Brown won't win. Simple as that. To win, Brown needs to hope that people don't show up to vote because Democrats out register Republicans 3-1 in this state. I'm hoping and beginning to believe that the last week has energized Democrats to vote.

[cali]

30. actually, even if dems do show up she could lose.

If the polls are accurate, he's winning indies by a huge margin and in MA indies outnumber dems.

[chelsea0011]

38. Indies aren't dems and again they have to show up in large amounts.

[Little Star]

31. I pray you are right and she can pull this out of the fire.

[OHdem10]

34. Coakley had won state races for AG with 73 % of the vote.

New Englanders, Please forgive me. This is being said with ove.
As a rule New Englanders are not glad handers and to some
people can appear remote unless they know you personally.
The Mass. people voted and gave her 73 % of the vote in
her AG elections. She won the primary handily.

We attack the candidate and put our heads in the sand.

The HIRB is the problem. We blamed the candidate in Va.
NJ. The HR Bill pushed Dorgan to a decision. Before the
bill his numbers were good in his state and he problably
would have been easily re-elected. After the bill his
numbers were going down according to Robert Kuttner.
The fact that Brown was able to national the election
using HRI . "I will be the 41st vote to stop the Bill".
tells the whole story.

Try as we might, the HC Bill is the Millstone around
our Candidates' neck from now to 2010.

[cali]

39. As a rule New Englanders aren't glad handers?

there is no rule like that. Think Teddy or Barney Frank or Bernie or Pat Leahy. These guys are ultra agressive campaigners who never take anything for granted. And they certainly don't appear remote. Blaming her piss poor campaign and her loss of a huge lead in a couple of weeks is sticking your head firmly in the sand.

And no, Dorgan was always in trouble agaist Hoeven.

[OHdem10]

46. I stand by points. We must read different research.

[cali]

48. Ignoring facts is not "standing by research"

I pointed out specific politicians from NE who certainly do not fit with your theory. I could point out many more.

[Little Star]

40. My point exactly. It wouldn't have mattered how Martha

campaigned. Like they say: its the HC bill stupid.

[karynnj]

69. In NJ the loss WAS all Corzine

The fact is that another Democrat, Codey for example, would have won. Exit polls showed that significantly over 50% of those who voted approve of Obama. Healthcare was not an issue in this. Issues were CORRUPTION and property taxes.

I have phone banked in many NJ races and corruption is often mentioned, but never like this time - and even before the sting that indicted a large number of officials, mostly Democrats. Corzine won in 2005, but he was hurt by that race and the fact that his ex-wife spoke against him. There was also at least a perception problem that he gave millions to an ex-girlfriend, who was a top official in a union he negotiated with. Their was a long protracted story because the emails between them during the negotiations were kept private.

In addition, I heard the words, "Goldman Sacks" from many. (Corzine was a former CEO.)

But, the thing that many (including Republicans) in my town thought was key - to balance the budget he eliminated the property tax rebate for those making over $75,000 a household. (NJ is a high income state - median household income in 2007 was $67,142 ) The rebate was not that much money, but eliminating it was not popular. To compound the problem, he chose to run a negative race rather than to defend the decision - which was that he needed to cut the budget about 13% because income tax revenues were down 19%. Corzine did this insuring that every school district had no cut from the year before and he expanded the state's SCHIP program. He failed to make people understand the decision he made and why he made it.

[FarCenter]

74. I don't think that Corzine ever came back fully after the accident

Although he had some of the problems you cite, such as the Carla Katz issue, before the accident, it didn't seem like he ever regained any real fire for the job after his state trooper doing 91 on the parkway plowed into the back of another car and almost killed him.

[karynnj]

78. I really agree with you

It took a huge toll on the respect that even Democrats had for him. I think many thought it completely wrong that he had his driver going 91 miles an hour - especially when there was no emergency. (Not wearing a seat belt is asinine but could hurt only himself.

In both 2005 and 2009, it was amazing how many Democrats mentioned that it would be so easy if Codey were running. It was pretty arrogant that Corzine ran when the numbers were what they were. He should have opted not to run - especially as no one would run against him knowing the resources he would put into it.

[BeyondGeography]

36. Where did Kerry get this rep anyway?

He's a very tough campaigner and a first-rate debater. After six or so wins in MA campaigns you should know better.

[Little Star]

58. He is not razzle dazzle. Therefore bad campaigner.

Nation wide a person may need razzle dazzle. It is not necessary in MA. We kinda like wonkish, dull campaigners here.

[karynnj]

79. Did you watch the 2008 convention?

Kerry's speech which he wrote himself was easily among the best, if not the best speech of the convention. (I think only Michelle's speech was better)

[karynnj]

64. It wa a claim repeated to diminish Kerry by people who had their own agendas

Kerry won both the Lt Gov and his first Senate primary without being the favorite of either the party or the media. I know he is from a large family, but he clearly was able to win people over by campaigning. He also beat Weld, who was the most popular Republican in 50 years. Another other reason is that only Kerry was compared to Ted Kennedy in MA - a standard no one could have beaten, but after beating Weld then getting something like 80% of the vote in 2002, Kerry did not have the reputation of a poor campaigner.

He also won the nomination in 2004 through his campaigning.(Here is a link to video of Iowa for all candidates - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KTHmM2mzk Dean had more party endorsements, more media support (Kerry had almost none) and far more money - Kerry beat him in Iowa by 20 points. If Kerry was a bad candidate, then logically Dean, Edwards and Clark were beyond awful - as none laid a glove on him in 2004 as he ran a flawless primary campaign from November 2003 on. His general election campaign was hobbled by an extremely biased media willing to condone an obvious character assassination and with some people within his campaign more loyal to the campaign they expected to be part of in 2008. ( http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/75729-bill-clinton-equal-parts-stupid-and-shrewd )

I think where that reputation comes from, which Kerry did not have pre 2004, was from people bitter because he beat their favorite in the primaries and then lost a very close race and because many Clinton allies pushed that story after November 2004. I am surprised that this is still repeated after all the excellent work that Kerry did for Obama in 2008 - including having what was called by the NYT the best non-acceptance speech at a Democratic convention in 2 decades. That speech written by Kerry himself engaged the crowd, framed McCain better than any other speech at the convention and included a strong inspiration message. ( http://www.johnkerry.com/multimedia/entry/john_kerry_addresses_the_democratic_national_convention_in_denver/ )

It is true that Kerry does not have the extreme extrovert "feel your pain" style of Bill Clinton and John Edwards. However, he is more eloquent than either and what he shows is who he really is. It was interesting that one of the books written on the 2004 primary noted that when the cameras were turned off, Kerry became warmer, funnier than when the cameras were on - while Edwards was the opposite, he had a megawatt smile for the camera, but when not "on" he was far less engaged with people. But, as the 2004 primary campaign and his 2008 speech for Obama show, Kerry can be extremely good.

[Tippy]

56. I have family on the Cape

When I asked about Cokeley early on, they too thought she would be a shoe in...very popular. But when it looked like she needed help they began campaigning for her in earnest....I really think Cokeley will win They are expecting a 70% turnout Tuesday..That bodes well for Cokeley, I found a couple of polls I didn't save a link last night but Cockeley was up in both. The phone banking effort from what family told me has been really great, their phone has been ringing off the hook this week-end. What I think is going on here is the GOP has used the two earlier pick-us of the Governorship's They are framing this as a Obama loss, and are in-fact rallying the troops..The GOP knew They would pick up a third win, darn can't remember where it was, but they lost big time. The one thing that could hurt Cokeley is the weather, if there is a low turn out ....well all the phone calls in the world won't help.

[Little Star]

61. Republicans surely are framing this as a Obama HCR loss,

and are rallying the troops to defeat his HCR. Mass has so many Independents who hate this HC bill its not even funny. When you add in ticked-off Dems, we sure have a mess here in MA.

[chelsea0011]

62. Where did you hear they are expecting 70%? I sure hope so.

[Tippy]

70. Not sure ..could have been TPM of KOS

There was some interviews of groups phone banking and one of the questions was about voting on Tuesday..I really felt positive after I read what was going on..I know they had a lot more calling yesterday than previous days...Union's for one. I save so much stuff thinking I might need it in the future..this time I didn't and I do, need links...I can't help it I'm getting old and it's showing

[Geek_Girl]

60. I don't think that she's run the best campaign nor the worse.

My guess is Dem leaders are taking their base for granted and this is what you get when you ignore the base!

[FBaggins]

63. This is the first time she had to run on her own merits

Prior to this she rode others' coattails.

And if you look at the OTHER down-ballot Democrats that year... she didn't even do THAT well.

Another mistake I see on this thread is the confusion between "bad campaigner" and "dull/boring".

You can lack fire in the belly and still be a good campaigner. Being good on the campaign trail isn't a gimmick or a carny sideshow talent. It means you show up... you engage the public in your campaign... you don't sit back and assume that your party's nomination equals an automatic victory.

[Tailormyst]

65. She was a fucking non-existant campaigner- until last week

[Kaleva]

66. Ted Kennedy would have smoked Brown in any given election

[AllieB]

76. Mike Capuano would have smoked Brown too.

Coakley is a bad campaigner, but she will win, probably in a very close race.

[rucky]

67. Martha Coakley is a bad campaigner.

and a worse debater. She took a dive right after the debate, so if you want to find clues to her dramatic drop in the polls, this article - and the 250+ comments underneath explains it all...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/coakley_brown_j.html?comments=all#readerComm

Lowlights:

Appearance of disconnect in tone and content: WTF about the Taliban not being in Afghanistan?

An attack on Brown on a bill he voted the opposite for.


What about Coakley's performance in that debate gave people a reason to vote for her? Meanwhile, Brown was animated and at least appeared to have command of the facts.

No doubt Coakley would be a better Senator, but serving as Senator requires an entirely different set of skills than campaigning for a Senate seat.

[UTUSN]

68. K&R to attempt to undo the usual, inscrutable UnReKKK, to no avail n/t

[Tippy]

71. K&R....

[Tippy]

72. Coakley number going up ,,,,,,

< http://polltracker.talkingpointsmemo.com/contests/2010-ma-sen >

Not that she is winning but her # are going up...

[Tippy]

73. Democrat Coakley confident

Democrat Coakey confident in Senate GOTV effort

Democrat Coakley says get-out-the-vote effort will win her pivotal Mass. Senate race

GLEN JOHNSON
AP News

Jan 18, 2010 08:15 EST

Democrat Martha Coakley says her campaign's get-out-the-vote efforts will win her an unexpectedly tight Massachusetts Senate special election.


< http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/massachusetts-voters-deluged-with-calls-from-nations-political-activists.php?ref=fpb >

[Tippy]

75. Brown Campaign hiring paid temp workers

The Brown campaign is hiring scores of paid temp workers from temp agencies to help staff Brown’s get-out-the-vote effort, work that’s typically handled by unpaid volunteers, a Massachusetts temp agency tells me.

Dems are likely to grab onto the use of temp workers to argue that the grassroots energy behind the Brown candidacy is overstated — and contrast it with the massive volunteer effort lining up behind Martha Coakley.

Diamond Staffing, a temp agency in central Massachusetts, circulated an email to other temp agencies telling them that they are sending temp workers to the Brown campaign in response to the campaign’s request. The email asked other agencies to send their own workers, according to Joe Asciotti, the president of Reliable Temps, an agency in Agawam

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/

If your from MA you may want to contct the cokeley campaign to see if you can do aome calling or give rides to the polls

[aikoaiko]

77. So you're saying that her campaign decision to embrace health care reform is costing her but that

isn't an indication of her campaign competence?

:shrug: