The "out of touch, want their pony, fringe liberals" labeling

[noise]

It doesn't even make sense. Last I checked many people in the US aren't doing so great. Even some of the teabaggers are struggling but they are too deluded to realize the very people they are cheering are at fault.

The political establishment deliberately scapegoats the "fringe left" because the "fringe left" has the audacity to expect elected officials to represent the public. In fact it appears that the "fringe left" is the only group in the country that isn't ok with corporate fascism. So it makes all the sense in the world for the political establishment to try to portray the "fringe left" as out of touch.

[tbyg52]

1. >>the "fringe left" is the only group in the country that isn't ok with corporate fascism.

:kick:

[Fire1]

8. The fringe left need to get a fuckin grip!! Few liberals I am aware

of, are "ok" with corporate fascism. But we are LUCID enough to know that, for now, until we move somewhere else, we live in a CAPITALIST society. What do you expect in a CAPITALIST society? It IS what it IS and you and your comparatively small little faction of progressives are NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT!!! You're too damn lazy for one and too damn broke for the other!

[nashville_brook]

12. it's the use of allcaps that makes this so persuasive!! -- but seriously, you're way off base

The progressive critique is that we're being forced to buy a pig in a poke with this HCR bill as it stands -- and, this is not what we signed on for. We were promised reform that would cut costs of healthcare. This bill has no such provision. We were promised no middle class tax increases -- this bill directly flies in the face of that promise. And, when we participate in the democratic process thru pressuring our Senators and Congressfolk for uphold their promises, we're derided by "senior white house advisors" as "the fringe left."

That you're so focused on the money-making side of the equation, is apparently your own cross to bear.

[Fire1]

21. When anybody, including the OP, refers to "corporate fascism,"

that is a reference to the "money making side of the equation." The weeping and whaling about the tax increases, here AGAIN, is in reference to the "money making side of the equation," as well as "cutting costs of health care." You've essentially contradicted your own post.
Finally, if you think I used "allcaps," you need your eyes checked.

[nashville_brook]

50. no, dear sir. you're the one riddled with contradiction, and i'll add... magical thinking.

[Fire1]

62. You have unequivocally no idea what you're talking about nor

the substance of this thread.

[liberation]

118. You must be one of those new conservative Dems...

... who think the best way to get liberals into your fold is by insulting them and being as utterly condescending as you can. How DLC of you... LOL

Equating not wanting to tolerate corporate fascism (which really is a redundant term) with wanting to abolish capitalism or whatever nonsensical crap takes some serious intellectually dishonest mental contortions. Good grief....

[Fire1]

139. My initial post attested to the fact that few liberals of whom I am

aware, likes the idea of corporate fascism. I was trying to make the point that as a system of legal privilege that protects the structure of a corporation against capitalists, corporatism is derived from free market capitalism. Mere "regulations" won't "abolish" corporatism. In the U.S., shareholders have no power or control over major industries (other than receiving dividends.) The executive hierarchy controls the corporations while the capital-owners control nothing. Is this not the result of free market capitalism? Would not tolerating one be equal to not tolerating the other?

[Fire1]

146. No retort? Thought not. n/t

[Phlem]

121. Right!

Because you know all.

Give me F#$!&*g break!

[bobbolink]

85. "whaling"

Yes, we fringe lunatics are too busy out whaling.....

Just wait until WhaleWatch catches us! :scared:

:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

95. A whaling we will go. A whaling we will go.

Heigh ho, the dairy-o,
A whaling we will go.

Shhhhh. We're whalin'.

I tink I taw a whale.
I did! I did taw a whale.

A whaling we will go.
A whaling we will go.
Heigh ho, the dairy-o,
A whaling we will go.


:rofl:

[bertman]

103. Jamastiene, that is hilarious. I could just see Sylvester singing to Tweety.

:rofl: :rofl:

[bobbolink]

147. Just the right song for the OP content!

:yourock:

:rofl:

[Fire1]

144. I'm sure you've never made a spelling error. Correction:

"Wailing."

[defendandprotect]

135. When we discuss "corporate/fascism" it means fascist control of govenrment . . .

Unhealthy and illegitimate, immoral profit by the few at the expense of the many.

That's what capitalism is all about -- moving the wealth and natural resources of a

nation from the many to the few.

Even after the most dire warnings that we need to reign in "for profit" health care

in America -- including pharma -- we have seen this corporate health care legislation

immediately produce ONLY the opposite. Drugs costing $14 now $90!

And, that's BEFORE the legislation is even approved.

There is NO health care reform without at least the compromise Public Option!

[Hannah Bell]

141. I didn't know they were whaling for tax increases. Is that some kind of protest thingee?

[dionysus]

49. all caps means you capitalize every word... just sayin'

[nashville_brook]

51. really -- got a link for that?

:rofl:

[NorthCarolina]

111. +1

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. I don't expect this crap. It wasn't always this bad and you know it. Bring back

regulations and controls so this unfettered can be held in check and not be allowed to only benefit the top 10% of the nation.

[Fire1]

24. Regulations or not, corporations have ALWAYS made

out like bandits. Bankers have ALWAYS made out like bandits as have insurance moguls and the like. It just wasn't "IN YOUR FACE" because you were distracted by the fact that you had a job paying a decent middle class wage and able to buy the toys and trinkets you desired. If not on credit by cash! This shit is not NEW!!

[omega minimo]

29. This level and this blatant presentation of "this shit is NEW!!"

Listen to Thom Hartmann, he'll school ya.

Your arguments sound like they're based on justifying your personal decisions and assuming as you did above that you know (impossible) what the other poster's situation is. As if you are on the "money making side of the eqation" and feel so threatened that you won't acknowledge the importance of regulation or the damages of unfettered capitalism?

[Fire1]

39. Bullshit. I acknowledged that "this level and this blantant

presentation" has not been obvious, as in, "in your face," but nevertheless, just because you weren't aware of it doesn't make it NEW.

[omega minimo]

44. You're just being rude

and not keeping track of who is saying what. I won't fight with you.


... and I was aware of it, maybe you weren't. Your projections really suck.

[Fire1]

46. Excuse you. You made a false assertion and got called on it.

You're being argumentative, for no reason.

[omega minimo]

47. Bullshit

More false statements from you, now personal? Fuck that.

[Enthusiast]

99. Fire1, are you TRYING to be difficult?

I appears to me that you are trying to be difficult for no good reason.

[Hannah Bell]

142. psst: yes....

[nashville_brook]

54. s/he also sounds like someone lacking in life experience -- possibly a second semester freshman.

[Fire1]

56. Yeah, you're in my class! n/t

[Go2Peace]

90. No, it has significantly changed. There is MUCH more CONTROL and MUCH less Privacy

Corporate Capitalism is NOT the same as "it has always been". The amount of control that has been implimented on all facets of life.

How old are you? You are either too young to know or you lack generational memory.

[theFrankFactor]

115. I Don't Think I Understand Your Wisdom...

What's the upshot? We're fucked, shut up?

I don't understand what it is you're defending? Do you think the "fringe Left" is a Communist movement?

I can tell you that, for me, this election was a huge opportunity to to initiate Progressive policy and THE FUCKING SHIT we're getting from this weak asshole is closer to CORPORATE FASCISM than it FUCKING needs to be.

[pattmarty]

130. Ok wise one, give us your take on whatever you think ails this country.

We're waiting...............................................

[defendandprotect]

137. Only since regulations have been overturned . . .and statistics on

wealth distribution up to the Carter era POST-NEW DEAL confirm that --

However, we have always had subsidies for capitalism -- couldn't exist without them!

Which is why capitalism is such a farce --

Most people don't want much more than a normal existence -- family health -- well being -

medical care -- child care -- and an existence that provides for something more than two

weeks vacation every year!

The few among us, however, will and do use violence and aggressive means to try to control

others, to exploit them. Capitalism is a system of exploitation.

[omega minimo]

22. Does CAPITIALIST = we have to use ALL CAPS!!!!!!11111

:spray:

Fire1, your post appears to equate Capitlism and Corporate Fascism. I'm sure you know that they are not.

The "fringe left" has been warning about the encroachment of corporate fasism for decades. The election of 2008 appeared to be the last possible opportunity to steer in another direction.

Corporate fascism has been officialized and institutionalized in 2009, not only with Obaba continuing the Bush bankster bailouts, but appointing the same people who caused the meltdown in charge at the White House. Other questionable appointments, ginning up the war machine, Arne Duncan running around the country trying to destroy the public school system via privatization, the flaccid farce of the Health Insurance legislation ....

What's strange now is how DOCILE and CASUAL some people on DU are about now ACKNOWLEDGING and ACCEPTING Corporate Fascism -- or in the case of your post, belligerent.

These are not the people who have been fighting it, who will never accept it; but the same people who have been demonizing us for questioning what they refused to face, challenge or prevent; who are "too damn lazy for one and too damn chickenshit for the other."



edit: "casual" -- flippant actually requires some effort

[Fire1]

25. Thanks for your unsolicited reply. n/t

[omega minimo]

31. Thanks for your snotty avoidance tactic and missing the humor in my lead line

:hi: It was meant humorously.

Pretending to be affronted is a convenient way to avoid the discussion and the questions.

"Unsolicitied"? Sound like you need to "get a grip." :wow:

[Fire1]

41. Yeah, back atcha.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

52. as a participant on a "discussion board" you're tacitly soliciting replies from all comers.

if you don't like it, you should find another hobby.

[Fire1]

55. Here we go! You're not the boss of me. Just because bully's

come out of the woodwork will not stifle my participation in anything I so choose to participate in. Thank you for your concern.

[omega minimo]

59. "Bully's"?

:wow: Are you aware of how clodhoppered in on this discussion? Consider the impression you make? No? That's okay for YOU to do? :wow:

[PVnRT]

93. Who is "stifling" your participation?

I was unaware that the people disagreeing with you were preventing you from posting here, you poor widdle victim, you.

[snagglepuss]

128. Rahm is that you?

[tbyg52]

68. Bud, this is a public message board. Better get used to "unsolicited replies" nt

[Fire1]

73. I know but some are more welcome than others even if they

don't agree. It's also quite coincidental that the same "posters" show up when you make a post. I call that stalking.

[tbyg52]

77. Well, if this were a busy message board I'd say it was stalking, but

it isn't anymore. Traffic is *way* down, so the fact that people seem to be following you may be just a function of the small number of OP's. A lot of people are bailing out of this board. The only reason I'm not one of them today is that I'm a bit short on entertainment.

[omega minimo]

80. "the fact that people seem to be following you may be just a function of the small number of OP's"

or confusion, paranoia, ego? that's an extreme accusation.

[Fire1]

82. Gotcha. I've been frequenting other boards myself. Plus, I try to

stay in BOG and AAIG when I'm here and even those are getting kind of slow.

[laughingliberal]

28. There is a difference between captialism and fascism

Unregulated capitalism does, generally, lead to fasism. But capitalism can be regulated to a point where it doesn't eat the citizenry alive.

So, the left is lazy and broke? The left is the new 'welfare queens,' now. We have certainly added a lot of groups to the list of welfare queens. I will agree many of us are a lot more broke after 30 years of right wing economics. In fact most in the working and middle classes are a lot more broke than they were before Reagan sold the country on Friedman's hat trick and our Democratic leaders started to follow along with it. Perhaps we would not be as broke if we weren't still paying the increased payroll tax Ronnie passed in order to give the ruling class their tax breaks.

edited to correct spelling in title

[omega minimo]

32. More "unsolicited" truth for ya, Fire1

:hi::pals:

[Fire1]

53. More information for you, omega minimo

The stucture of fascism IS corporatism or the corporate state. Thus, the term, "corporate fascism." It is the usurpation of government by private enterprise.

[omega minimo]

57. So you finally acknowledge that capitalism and corporate fascism are not equivalent

We have (had) a rapport Fire1, which I had in mind in my initial posts to you. Please do not continue to try to mess with me.

And to your little lesson I say, "DUH"

[Fire1]

60. Fine. Welcome to ignore.

[omega minimo]

83. fine

you made the mess. too bad you can't see that.

[tbyg52]

67. I am neither lazy nor broke.

I contribute and I work. But I'm not giving another dime to the DNC, the DSCC, or the DCCC for the foreseeable future. Individual candidates only, and no Blue Dogs.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
www.quotationspage.com/quote/33522.html

[tomp]

84. wow, that was insane! nt

[Political Heretic]

86. Actually there are plenty of capitalist societies that are doing far better than we are.

Your bullshit about how this is all we can hope for and we dare not demand anything better is pure corporatist screed

[TheKentuckian]

91. What does a market economy have to do with corporate influence on the government?

How did it become radical left to at least expect regulation and oversight? It is not supposed to be some natural part of a capital market to have business largely control the government.

You are missing the entire issue. People can be against corporatism from left, right, and center. TDR was the Trustbuster, Ike warned us about the MIC. The role of government as regulator rather than co-conspirator or pawn should be expected from anyone that is LUCID and any society that is conscience of the problem has an obligation TO CHANGE IT!!! CAPITALIST, SOCIALIST, IN BETWEEN, OR A LITTLE OF BOTH!

[Enthusiast]

100. This is good.

"How did it become radical left to at least expect regulation and oversight?"

This is the point. The talking heads on the M$M are characterizing those that expect reasonable regulation and oversight as radical leftists. While nothing could be further from the truth. A HUGE majority of the American people want strong oversight and regulation. We wouldn't call this huge majority of the American people radical left.

[Skidmore]

94. Absolutely spot on! Wish I could rec for just this response.

Sitting in the corner and screaming accomplishes nothing except discourage people from coming into your corner.

[ChiciB1]

110. Any Suggestions How We Can "Get Out Of the Corner?" A Cogent Solution Is

what we need to advance as a people, and perhaps have a coming together where ALL people count, or at least COUNT more than we do now.

We do complain, but we don't know WHERE TO TURN!

JMHO!

[Enthusiast]

98. No one is complaining about capitalism.

In a representative democracy we expect representation. When the wishes of the people are being subverted by corporate interests and influence, to the extent we see, we no longer have capitalism, we have fascism. When we no longer have Representative democracy and the legislature only answers to the corporate interests the country is fascist.

There is nothing fringe left or progressive about it.

[NorthCarolina]

106. If our "small little faction of Progressives" can't change it, then why the angst?

Seems to me that you and Corporate America would have little to fear from a "small little faction". Why would you even feel motivated to voice disdain for an insignificant "lazy" "broke" and "small" group of "Progressives" since we are such a tiny fringe fragment of America?

[kpominville]

126. Capitalism is NOT the same as corporate fascism

And if you think it is you are even dumber than your post makes you seem.

[sui generis]

127. No, it's the recently converted republican "mainstream democrats"

who need to get a grip, preferably on a live third rail.

Give me the top three topics you believe define "progressives".

If you aren't too chickenshit.

[pundaint]

136. If "now" isn't when we have the largest majority since before Roosevelt, then when?

People get reelected, if we put a corporatist Democrat in a seat now, it will be harder to put a populist Democrat in the seat in '12, and we'll be stuck with a corporatist in a liberal seat.

[omega minimo]

33. true in a sense, but talk to the "Salt o the Earth" folks. They know what time it is.

:think:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. job = "pony"

[QC]

11. Peace = pony. Equal rights = pony. Health care = pony.

Comparing life and death matters to a spoiled child's desire for an impractical birthday present is as low as it gets.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. Low and pathetic and disgusting, too.

[QC]

34. It should be an instant suspension. n/t

[omega minimo]

42. Wasn't that already adressed by Admin last year and yes, it is not allowed?

[QC]

79. Yes, it is forbidden now. n/t

[omega minimo]

81. oic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7499774

[Political Heretic]

87. It's why I love it when they say it. It doesn't hurt me and it exposes them for what they are.

[liberation]

120. It also provides an insight into their ugly souls...

.... projection being what it is.


It is not only bad that they have declared hunting season on us liberals for the better part of 4 decades, but they always want to double up the injury with the insult of wanting to blame us of their very own faults and fuck ups.

However, my favorite part is when we get lecture about being "productive" by the same contingent whose only contribution has been hubris...

[DisgustedInMN]

96. Yep...

... and FDR provided 1,000,000 of those "ponies" within 30 days of taking office, in far more difficult circumstances.

[Gman2]

3. We have many new bro and sises. And we arent all OK with sharing.

Big tent is turmoil. Resist Lino or Pino purges. Dont shove the unwashed masses back into the arms of rethugs.

[walldude]

4. It makes perfect sense...

When you are going to lose a debate you dehumanize your opponent. Their serious, real world problems become, a pony, their ideas are out of touch, they aren't "one of us". It's simple political manipulation.

[LWolf]

5. +1

[Donnachaidh]

7. +1000000

:thumbsup:

[nashville_brook]

9. it's also factionalizing / fracturing / disruption -- sows the seeds of disunity

needs to be called out as such every time it's used.

[noise]

58. Agreed that it makes sense as a dismissive talking point

What doesn't make sense is that the people who recognize the harm of the right wing policies are considered out of line for objecting while the people who implement those policies are given a pass. If anyone is out of touch it is the politicians who think their conduct is acceptable.

[OHdem10]

6. To illustrate how out of touch they really are:

The Conservadems have totally had charge of the HCR Bill.
Activists had essentially been ignored. Therefore whatever
is wrong lies at their (Conservadems) feet.

To say one thing about the Left rings hollow and the American
People know this.

Their Rw Bill is theirs. Now stand up and defend it.

[omega minimo]

16. +1

[flyarm]

89. +10,000!!!!!!!!!!!!! eom

[Enthusiast]

101. +1, OHdem10!

It is a RW bill, all the way.

[RaleighNCDUer]

112. Of course, it WILL have Obama's name on it, which then by default

makes it the product of the fringe lefties because everyone knows he's a soshulist.

[omega minimo]

10. The so called "Fringe Left" are Dems who never voted for Reagan or Bush

The rest consider themselves "center," "middle", "conservative" or to the right.

The "fringe Left" is a illusion, a strawman created by the guilty, who have selfishly gone along with the destruction of our nation.

[QC]

13. +1

[nashville_brook]

14. holy cow -- that really nails it.

[omega minimo]

40. Glad that resonates

:pals: when I see "left" 'center' etc. on DU, it seems like no one establishes who or what they're talking about, just assumes their own meaning is the one everyone uses. The bar has shifted so far right, at this point it's a joke.


As for "pony" that has ALREADY been banned last year after some LGBT wars. As in BANNED banned, as I recall. There should not be any question of using it against any group here or and question about expectations the Mods will address it ASAP. If I'm not mistaken, the announcement came from Sknner.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. +a gazillion

[BlueJac]

104. Well said and very true

[suzie]

113. That is complete and utter self-serving garbage.

Sorry, that may be breaking DU rules, so go alert on it.

Democrats who never voted for Reagan or Bush or any other Republican are called every name in the leftist fringe moonbat book, every day on this forum.

And often they're called that by posters who proudly admit that they were Nader voters or write-in voters, or something else.

And then, these Democrats who've always voted for Democrats are villainized by Nader voters--the ones who really did selfishly go along with the destruction of the nation.

If many of them are even Nader voters. Right wingers that I've seen on other websites openly admit that they post on DU as shills, using the same RW talking points to criticize everything that regular Democrats are doing.

[YOY]

124. Once again...I would like to quote the jackholes from the film "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

"EXTREME!!!"

[MisterP]

18. there's so many conservadem angles of attack:

1) You're exaggerating: the HCR bill has some good elements, 60 Yemenis didn't really die, Bush and Yoo really aren't Tojo-level war criminals, you make us look bad with your conspiracy theories of "faked Gulf of Tonkin battles" and "Iran-Contra kook tales."
2) All good policies 1961-93 were passed by Dems, so we must vote Dem no matter what, since they're better.
2b) Teabagger takeover! Booga-booga-booga! They'll start wars in Yemen and Pakistan, propose Stupak Amendments, and do nothing while people lose their jobs and homes!
3) You're childish, selfish, mentally-ill, short-sighted purists, so unlike noble, mature statesmen like "smelly commoners" Reid and Lieberman.
4) Conservadems have always been right: the IWR was a good move because Saddam would've burned down Boston, NAFTA and dismantling welfare restored the American middle class and made the 00s the decade of highest job growth since the 40s.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Good one!

I'd post a smilie if the colon/semicolon key on my laptop weren't broken.

[earth mom]

19. Look no further than GD-P for those who sling the pony bullshit all day long. nt

[omega minimo]

26. GD: P made itself unlookable long ago.

dancing with their strawmen.

[Individualist]

36. +1

It's a DLC cesspool.

[omega minimo]

43. +1

breeding ground for phony voices, "extremists," who fill in where real left voices have left after too much badgering, thus fulfilling the fantasies of the badgers that yes!! these leftists are SO exTREME. Dancing with their own strawmen and loving it.

[butterfly77]

20. The President expected..

some help but this is what he got,day after day,somebody is complaining.

Didn't he say WE before and after he took office.

I notice a lot of SO CALLED dems come on here day after day talking about what the President should and should not do,the same damn people who sat on their asses and did or said nothing while Dick Armey and the teabaggers took over the healthcare debate and now they want to complain...

Same thing goes for these SO CALLED dems who show up on tv wimping out and talking down our candidates and our President instead of knocking down these asshole republicons they sit there and agree with them..

[omega minimo]

37. Dick Armey and The Teabaggers

:spray: :headbang: :headbang: :yourock:

[dionysus]

63. yes, the "Dems" who can hardly hide their glee at the prospect of us losing seats as some form of

payback, aren't exactly helping here...

[Raineyb]

132. Use of the word "we" also implies that even when we don't agree all sides will be listened to.

Unfortunately, during this so-called health care reform, it was made perfectly clear that if you're slight left to the rather far right center you will not be listened to. When we discuss the banks people who think we should not continue to reward the banks for destroying the economy weren't listened to. So you can't really blame people for being disgusted when they're told that WE working together will improve the country then aren't listened to while those who cause the problem in the first place continue on their merry way.

And the party certainly can't expect loyalty from voter when they don't even bother to put up a fight for the things people want. Especially when people can see plain as day that they're willing to fight for what the corporations want.

People have no problem with compromise but you have to start with your strongest most desired position. That's certainly NOT what happened during this so-called health care debate.

[TheKentuckian]

140. Hey, I wasn't the dumbass that gave the process over to Mad Max

and let him wipe, dangle, and facilitate a Republican slowwalk and gutting of the idea with a bipartisan gang of seve...errr...six after Hatch bounced and froze out Democrats. Nor did I send everyone home for a summer break. I'd also add that there were no town halls until the craziest stuff settled down.

The White House and Baucus fucked up the whole process and allowed the Confederates to take the whole thing off the tracks by trying to get a bill that pharma and big insurance wouldn't object to.

You have reason to be angry but the blame goes around a lot further than pointing fingers around here. It is too funny how easy it is to let people with actual control of the situation and that get paid to perform slide but are quick to get blindly pissed off at random people, accusing them without the benefit of a single fact.

Where were you? Why weren't you repelling the teabagger onslaught? Hell, maybe you were. Not being God, I'll skip the judgment on things I have no insight on and I'd advise a similar practice for anyone.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, noise.

[jonathon]

35. The fringe left is the majority - they marginalize anyone who wants real change and accountability

....as being somehow radical or fringe

And, when people don't want to continue to vote for politicians who they believe will continue the DLC status quo, they are blamed for working against the party when it is the party working against the people.

Most people wanted real health reform.

Most people want bailout money for the people and not Wall St and the big banks.

Most people want the end of the insane wars in Afghanistan in Iraq.

Yet, most people are depicted as fringe. It is a classic way to disempower and make people feel isolated in their beliefs.

And, it must end.

[MisterP]

38. some establishmentarian explicitly said that the 60-70% of Americans wanting single payer

were a "radical fringe"!

in fact, the whole idea of a "radical fringe" is ultraconservative: once labeled, the "extremists" do not need to be listened to, their ideas are all deliberate frauds or the result of mental illness, and they can not be negotiated with. Likewise, security establishments and RWers hopped up on Dirty Harry say that terraists are pure evil and "rabid dogs" who can't be reasoned with, only (orgasmically) killed. It's a neat dehumanizing trick.

[Enthusiast]

102. Brother they started doing this

dehumanizing shit clear back with the native Americans.

[omega minimo]

45. Well put. Thanks jonathon.

:thumbsup:

[NorthCarolina]

114. Well said, I concur. eom

[dionysus]

48. well, there are fringe leftists that are way to the left of mainstream liberals.

don't pretend they don't exist, there are fringes in both parties.

i'll give a few random examples.

there's a handful of self-proclaimed marxists here. i'd call them fringe-left.

there's people that would like to overthrow capitalism, that's fringe-left.

people that think obama = bush, are fringe-left.

as much as DU political junkies would like to see bush rotting in the Hague, mainstream voters see that as a fringe idea.

there's also plenty of pragmatic liberals who know they can't get certain things in the system we have. legislating health insurance companies out of existance, but things like that aren't possible unless you can get completely publicly financed elections.

now if you're talking about republicans painting mainstream liberals as radicals i agree with your post.

[omega minimo]

64. don't forget

the phony extremists who come here to try to set up false divisions and play into "centrist" cliched expectations of "the left".

[dionysus]

65. oh, they exist for sure. but i think you overestimate the numbers of centrists and conservadems here

on DU.

i might be too pragmatic in that i don't think we can get most liberal legislation past all 40 repuke senators, 6 outright blue dogs, and a host of other dem senators who are influenced in various levels by outside interests.

it doesn't mean i support centrist positions, but i'm afraid that whatever we can get will be seriosuly compromised until you get total public financing of elections. as in that's not what i think things should be, but unfortunately, that's how it is. it'd be nice to have 60 paul wellstones, but we don't.

we ended up in a position to get railroaded by a small group of senators from our own party. they should have gone along with things like public option, but they realized they suddenly had power, and they lorded it over the whole caucus.

i didn't explain that as well as i'd like to, but hopefully you understand my drift.

[treestar]

109. You know, that's exactly what the fringe left does

Assume there are 60 Paul Wellstones and then act shocked about the fact there are not.

[janet118]

119. It's the campaign financing . . .

As long as Congress can be bought and paid for by corporate interests, working people are screwed. They don't listen to us because money talks and working people don't have enough resources to compete with the sugar daddies in the insurance, oil, pharmaceutical, financial, weapons, etc. lobbies. There are no renegade Republicans because they are comfortable with being corporate whores and have a base that will always vote for them as long as they wave the guns, babies and marriage flag. But why were there always enough Democrats to vote for Bush's corporate agenda to get things passed? Because they distance themselves from their base. Now the Republicans stand as a bloc and they have enough Democrats to join them in their obstruction. It's time to make the filibuster a thing of the past. Now it is never used by the "little guy" a la Mr. Smith, if it ever was. We need to get back to requiring 51 votes to pass bills in the Senate. The small population states are already over represented by having the same no. of senators as the larger states. (This makes them a very cheap buy for the lobbyists, eh, Baucus, Lincoln?) The passage of laws that are not corporate-approved should not be further hampered by requiring 60 votes.

[gravity]

61. Well stop attacking the Dems all the time

The country is messed up and the Democrats already have enough trouble getting shit done in congress.

I don't care if people have criticism towards the Democrats, but this constant bashing does not help the cause one bit. You are getting in the way of Democrats who are already struggling to get something through Congress, so you will get dismissed. You aren't helping the cause.

[noise]

66. Bashing?

It sure looks like you are conflating valid criticism with bashing. Criticism from the left should not be confused with right wing propaganda. The left wants better representation. Less corruption.

[gravity]

69. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between the fringe right and left criticism

It is essentially the same, even if your intentions are different.

[noise]

71. That doesn't make sense

The arguments and the intentions are completely different.

The left seeks less corruption, more transparency, enforcement of the rule of law, etc.

The right seeks more fascism, more Shock Doctrine policies, more fearmongering, etc.

[RaleighNCDUer]

116. Perhaps you are only hearing HOW it is said, rather than WHAT is

being said.

That is exactly like saying Bachman and Kucinich are exactly alike because they both oppose the HRC bill as it stands - never mind that they oppose it for diametrically opposed reasons.

[YOY]

123. Not really.

n/t

[salguine]

70. Not only that, but I would respond to gravity's assertion that

"this constant bashing does not help the cause one bit" by submitting that it is, rather, those who AREN'T making a stink who "aren't helping the cause".

[omega minimo]

75. Valid criticism. Better representation. Less corruption. Fewer insults.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7499774

[okie]

72. Disagree

I don't think there is much substance to this argument. For example, do you believe that the proposed health care bill would have been better without the opposition from leftists? I think these voices of opposition were never really even heard in the health care discussion. And if the voices are not being heard, how does it help "the cause" by shouting, "silence!" at these voices?

[treestar]

108. The leftists find not one good thing about it

So no, they haven't helped at all.

They go on and on about how McCain would have done no differently, etc.

Once they finally got something the Senate could vote for, it was nothing but nonstop bashing. Kill the bill and all that.

[tbyg52]

78. >>struggling to get something through Congress

Yeah, as in "something, ANYTHING." I'm not going to shut up when they are making a mess just because they are labeled "Democrats."

[mochajava666]

74. The audacity I had was one of hope

Someone campaigned on that as a central theme. 2008 seems so long ago.

[TexasObserver]

76. "Once you label me, you negate me."

--- some guy you read in college and haven't thought about since

Some terms are constructed to be damning labels, and should be treated as such.

[HughMoran]

88. Yes the MSM does like to label, all the more reason to keep the discussions grounded

& why we should provide practical alternatives that many people can agree on. Screaming at each other and/or suggesting that "I want this and I will fold my arms and ignore you if I don't get it" is not productive.

I agree 100% on the principal, I'm not sure DU achieves much in practice - mostly due to "too many cooks spoil the broth". It's not anybodies fault, it's everybody's fault. (IMO)

[Tabasco_Dave]

92. Traditional new deal Democrat = fringe left

20 years ago i would have been considered a moderate now i'm a socialist because i believe in the ideas of FDR.:shrug:

[pattmarty]

134. Very true. Just as the "conservatives" of today were the crazy..............

............."John Birchers" in 50's & 60"s. The country definitely has taken a hard right turn.

[Enthusiast]

97. I'm with you.

But it DOES make sense. The media has systematically been co-opted. Now the only information people hear from TV, newspaper and radio is misinformation. And it is subtle at times. If one listens with a practiced ear you can recognize the distortion and lack of fact checking on nearly every program.

So the people are voting against their best interests because they are systematically being programmed to do so.

Again, IMHO, the media is our greatest challenge.

[treestar]

105. the fringe left is not equal to "the public"

There is a lot of audacity in expecting nationally elected officials to represent the "fringe left" only.

[RaleighNCDUer]

117. You are more wrong than right with that.

What is LABELED 'fringe left' IS mainstream traditional Democratic stands - that the government works for the people, that organized labor is a positive force, that grassroots on-the-ground Democrats should have more influence on their elected representatives than corporate CEOs.

70% of the American public - dems and repubs and independents - wanted a public option. Is it 'fringe left' to put a public option in the HRC bill? THAT is what we expect. THAT is what we have NOT gotten.

The 'fringe left' IS the public.

EDIT: Is decriminalizing marijuana 'fringe left'? That is what the opinion shapers would have us believe, but the first thing I saw leaving this page was the headline "81% Favor Approval of Medical Marijuana".

The 'fringe left' IS the public.

[treestar]

125. I don't agree

Anyone can attribute their own desires to the general public.

It just isn't that far left. It does not care if the corporations and insurance companies continue to do business, does not care enough about any of those issues to elect people who will act on them - it's easy to say something on the phone for a poll, but then they go back to what they are doing and vote their same representatives back in.

And if the general public wanted some of these things for real, and not just on the phone in a poll, they'd never ever vote for republicans. 48% of them still do and sometimes it hovers near 50.

Some of them are just downright frivolous in their voting choice, or don't vote at all (yet can still be asked in phone polls what they think of this or that issue).

They don't want such changes as the fringe left feels entitled too, and screams at the Democrats for. Not to that extent.

[RaleighNCDUer]

129. Wrong again.

A public option is NOT that far left. But people voted Republican because they were MORE scared of terrorism or the black muslim in office than they WANTED the public option. And some were genuinely scared of the public option because they were TOLD that the public option was a scary leftist ploy to sneak socialism into the government - not understanding what socialism is, but knowing only it is a bad thing.

The genuine fringe left, which does exist, is NEVER heard from. Even on this board there are vanishingly few hardcore leftists. The right simply takes mainstream positions and LABELS them as 'left' to promote their own far right agenda.

Again, what is being labeled as 'fringe left' today would be mainstream Democratic positions of 50 years ago. They are in reality no more fringe left now than they were then - it is just that their relative position is moved because the right has moved so very FAR to the right, where people who would have been dismissed as RW John Bircher extremists then get tapped to be the Republican VP today.

Simply put, people POLL their desires; they VOTE their fears. Nobody plays on fears better than the right - it is, after all, all they've got.

[bertman]

107. Absolutely right. Thank you, noise. Rec.

[unapatriciated]

122. Great post, they started portraying us as fringe when we disagreed with raygunomincs.

We are not "fringe left" nor are we out of touch, that is why they need to marginalize us.
K&R

[Marr]

131. Here's a handy chart that illustrates how marginal the fringe is.

That little stripe at the top there represents Wall Street, billionaires, and other big money interests. Everything below it is "fringe".

[southernyankeebelle]

133. I am a proud liberal. I always have been even when people changed and called themselves

Progressives. I really am a social democratic. I am very proud of it because I grew up a military brat and married to a retired soldier. All through my life the military took care of us and now that we are retired they are still taking care of us. I see nothing wrong with government helping its citizens.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

138. 30 years ago we were called Democrats

and the establishment DLCers were called Republicans.

[omega minimo]

143. +1

[DelPotro]

145. K&R