Those of you that don't grasp why more planes can't get in to Port Au Prince, look at these photos;

[A HERETIC I AM]

First, let's have a look at the airport in question;
Port Au Prince Toussaint Louverture Airport
As has been stated in other posts and this fine description from the Daily Kos, it is a basic, single runway, no taxiway airport with a small ramp.

Now, look at this;
Miami International main air cargo area
When the page opens, you can zoom out to have a better look, but the point here is that the main cargo area of Miami International has roughly 5 times the space of Port Au Prince's airport.

Here's a broader look at MIA;
Miami International Aiport
THREE parallell runways, multiple high-speed exits for each runway and multiple taxiways. MIA and the scores of other airports around the world of similar design are capable of handling up to and exceeding 100 landings and take-offs per hour. Port Au Prince simply can not.

Here is a shot of one of the primary Air Force cargo operations in the USA;
The main ramp at Dover Air Force Base

Toussaint Louverture Airport is just simply NOT CAPABLE of handling more flights than they are handling.

If you have flown before, you know that when the plane lands, it rolls out and decelerates. At most airports, the pilot has the luxury of turning off the runway at a fairly high rate of speed onto a taxiway, clearing the runway in short order and allowing the next plane on approach to do the same.

At Port Au Prince, the pilot has to slow to almost a complete stop, do a one-eighty and taxi back down the runway he just landed on to turn in to the ramp area. All this takes time.

If you haven't taken the time to look up a photo of exactly what they are dealing with, I would hope you take a few minutes and look at the shots I've linked.

I've been pretty quiet the last few days, reading all the threads about this disaster, and the ignorance of basic flight operations displayed is astounding, not to mention the other logistical nightmares being dealt with by those trying to provide relief. Exclamations of "Why can't they just let them land?!?" or "Why don't they just air drop supplies?" are written and expressed by people who pass through airports (and much of life, apparently) without taking one extra second to observe their surroundings and/or have no comprehension of the damage and mayhem that can be done by dropping heavy things out of an airplane, even when parachutes are used.

Stop trying to second guess professionals if you don't understand even the basics of how an airport operates, much less a seaport.

[dkf]

1. How do we conduct wars in these types of areas. Are our planes useless?

Just curious if the military has a better way.

[A HERETIC I AM]

2. Not every war relies on a modern airport.

In fact, damned few do.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

4. Are you suggesting that we bomb the earthquake? n/t

[uppityperson]

24. Good question to an odd post. nt

[dkf]

35. My point is you need to feed and outfit our military without the use of sophisticated airports

And Isn't that why we have the army Corp of engineers?

I thought it was weird they would do waterways etc for the country in peacetime but I guess the military needs expertise in bridges in cases of moving men in war.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. When is the last time you saw a war organized from scratch in a week?

And yeah, part of the justification for the army corps of engineers building things in peacetime is the same as the justification for training infantry to shoot things even during peacetime - because if you have to do it in wartime, it kinda works better if you've got some fucking experience doing it. Kind of the same way that godawful high school and college relationships are training for the real thing. Unfortunately the army corps of engineers can't just miracle a fucking international airport into existence in four days.

[dkf]

44. Obviously they can't pull it out of their butts but

You'd think some things are basic. I wonder if you aren't right and we simply don't have the skills to do this on the fly. That is your point right?

[PavePusher]

50. Aargh, you still miss the point.

It's not that we don't have the skills (we do), it's that you can not get the people, equipment and materials in place instantaeously. It takes time. Time. Many days to weeks, sometimes months. Unless you have a miracle in your pocket.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I am still wondering where people are hiding the pixie dust

this is also a reaction to Katrina... I am serious.

[PavePusher]

74. I know. I had to explain the same stuff...

to a lot of people about Katrina. And that situation was waaaaaaaaay better than Haiti.

Were mistakes made after K? Sure. But a lot of good people took it in the neck to assuage the weeping hand-wringers. Still pisses me off to this day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Actually the mistakes in Katrina

were monumental given we were connected, there was a plan, and that plan was really never implemented.

And unlike the folks who go it was to clear a city... no, it was to prove government does not work.

The world of difference that it makes to have people who BELIEVE in government.

[RC]

52. Sure, why not. It seems to be our answer to everything else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. There will be screaming when

some carefully used explosives are used to clear some of the rubble, if they need to go there...

After all the host government does not have the expertise. So who do you think will get the call for this?

[sandnsea]

5. They're landing 100 flights a day

AIRPORTS & AIRSPACE

· The airfield is open for 24/7 operations and has a 100-aircraft per day capacity.

· USAF air traffic control and airfield management personnel continue to manage air operations at the airport with approval of the Government of Haiti.

· There are 33 helicopters supporting relief operations and conducting operations to 9 landing zones. An additional 15 helicopters are scheduled to arrive in Haiti within the next 24 hours. These helicopters are operating out of nine landing zones, including five drop-off points.



SAFETY & SECURITY

· The major focus of military efforts is establishing water distribution sites, and delivering fuel, food, and medicine.

· Approximately 11,274 military personnel are on the ground or afloat.

· 5 U.S. Navy ships are on station, including the USS Carl Vinson. 5 additional vessels are scheduled to arrive over the course of Monday, 1/18.

· 5 Coast Guard cutters are in the area, joining a host of Coast Guard assets in the area working day and night to support military air traffic control, conduct damage assessments and rescue people in need of assistance.

o Coast Guard cutter Forward arrived off Port Au Prince 1/13 and was the first U.S. asset on the scene.

o 3 additional cutters — Mohawk, Tahoma, and Valiant — have arrived in the area and are providing support and supplies. Tahoma and Valiant are flight deck and communications coordination capable, and the Tahoma is loaded with water and medical supplies.

o The cutter Oak arrived in Port Au Prince and will deliver water and medical supplies in addition to conducting hydro surveys and service to Aids to Navigation. Oak has 20-ton operating crane built into it.

· The Crimson Clover, a covered, roll-on roll-off barge with two 46-foot extendable ramps and a top-loader for discharge operations, is in Port Au Prince and has begun unloading operations.

· 7 Coast Guard C-130 airplanes are conducting evacuations of U.S. personnel and other support services as directed by the U.S. Embassy; a Coast Guard C-144 is conducting airborne surveillance and imagery of the port; and 5 Coast Guard helicopters are conducting evacuations and other support.



HEALTH

· 265 HHS medical personnel are on the ground in Haiti:

o Doctors, nurses, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, and other medical personnel who are a part of the National Disaster Medical System and the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. HHS activated the National Disaster Medical System and the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps to assist in relief efforts in Haiti.

· HHS medical teams have begun seeing patients.

o More than 300 patients were seen yesterday at a Haitian orphanage, most with acute medical problems.

o A pediatric surgeon from the HHS International Medical Surgical Response Team performed surgery on a child yesterday aboard USNS Carl Vinson.

o A Disaster Medical Assistance Team and the International Medical Surgical Response Team today will see patients at a GHESKIO clinic in Port-au-Prince.

o Members from a Disaster Medical Assistance Team will also see patients today at the Haitian Coast Guard base in Killick, Haiti.



· The USNS Comfort is currently underway and expected to arrive on 1/20 with 600 medical personal on board.



EVACUATION & RESCUES

· A total of 2,971 Americans have been evacuated.

· FEMA is coordinating and supporting the deployment of state and local Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) Teams from across the country to Haiti.

o Currently, 6 USAR teams (511 total personnel) are on the ground in Haiti. These teams are made up of specially-trained state and local first responders and come from across the country.

o U.S. USAR teams have rescued 37 individuals, and 69 rescues have been successfully conducted by the 27 international USAR teams.

o Each USAR team includes approximately 70 team members.



FOOD & WATER

· More than 89,800 lbs of cargo has been delivered.

· A total of 20 pallets containing 27,000 Humanitarian Daily Rations have been delivered to Port au Prince, as well as three pallets of medicine and hygiene pallets.

· The Department of Defense provided three water purifications treatment units and delivered twelve 3,000 gallon water bladders and 18 pallets of bottled water.

· Military helicopters airlifted 26,000 Humanitarian Daily Rations from Guantanamo Bay to Port au Prince.

· A DoD C-17 conducted an airdrop of 40 Container Delivery System bundles (20 MREs/20 water).

[jonathon]

64. Thanks for the info

[dixiegrrrrl]

84. Good to see all that info in one place. Thanks.

[krispos42]

10. If we were to invade Haiti, it would probably be an amphibous assault

Up the beaches by landing craft and brought in by helicopter, after the Air Force and the Navy bombed the shit out of the defenses. The 82nd Airborne might be dropped in to secure vital locations at the same time the Marines land. This would keep the defenders from destroying or using things such as bridges, tunnels, or airfields, and tie up attempts by the defenders to push the Marines off the beach by hindering or blocking logistical pathways.

Supplies would be brought in up the beach until a deepwater port could be seized, then the military transports would be able to tie up and off-load thousands of tons of supplies right onto land and into the hands of the military's logistical command. Airports and air bases would be disabled by fighter-bombers, if needed, then re-built by military combat engineers once taken by the infantry. The C-130 cargo plane can use improvised fields, such as dirt or grass, so if necessary the combat engineers could hack a strip out of the forest or whatever, enough for the transports to land and discharge troops or supplies and retrieve the wounded.

Heck, the C-130 can actually simply drop a sled loaded with cargo or armored vehicles out of the back as it makes a low pass over an open field... a drogue chute on the sled pulls it down the ramp and onto the ground.

[dkf]

37. So why can't they do all that absent the bombing?

Do you need to destroy things in order to move everything in? I imagine not.

[hootinholler]

56. Because it takes months of planning and manuvering to get the pieces into play.

It is a highly choreographed thing.

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Here is the clue, they are moving the 22nd MEU into place

it takes physical days to move them... and trust me they are moving fast... They are supposed to be there by I guess today.

If they were Over the Horizon people would have been screaming because we were invading the country.

[krispos42]

79. Yeah, given enough time to plan and prepare.

We spend like 3 years building up supplies, vehicles, armaments, munitions, and troops for the Normandy invasion.

Now, admitedly, "invading" for disaster relief would require much less military planning, but the supplies still have to be put into place. The right ships have to be found... ones that can dock and load landing craft, or that have their own shipboard cranes that can transfer their cargo. And supplies have to be brought to port, loaded onto said ship, then moved down to Haiti. And not just any supplies... it has to be packaged so that it can be hand-moved. Tha means small boxes and bags of food, not giant bulk containers. 50 and 100 pound sacks of rice, flour, and beans, for example. Boxes of two or three dozen MREs. Canned goods packaged two dozen per case. Water in gallon or two-gallon jugs. Powdered milk. Baby formula.

In short, the food has to be packaged like your local grocery store uses when restocking shelves. This is entirely doable, but the food had to be produced above and beyond current consumption levels by Campbell's and Hormel (for example) and brought to the right port to be loaded onto the right ship. We certainly have enough in-stock to do this, but it's a matter of organizing with the big sellers like Wal-Mart, Target, Shop-Rite, Big Y, SuperValu, Safeway, etc.

Their major port is closed due to earthquake damage, so that really limits the kinds of ships that can effectively bring supplies down to the ravaged areas. Simply diverting a bulk cargo ship with 30,000 tons of grain to Haiti isn't an option if there's no way for it to unload and no way to transport the unpackaged, loose grain.

Ideally, IMO, a roll-on/roll-off ship (think of a big car-carrying ferry) loaded with small trucks would be the best for the initial offloading. Each small box truck would be pre-loaded with food and water and other supplies, and once the ship arrived in Haiti the trucks would simply drive-off into Port-au-Prince's streets, heading towards pre-established distribution points secured and organized by the military.

Once the port was repaired, regular ships could come in, and the box trucks would reload from those vessels to keep the supply lines intact and running.

But absent this, how does a container cargo ship get the cases of Spam onto the beach? Well, they can use their own cranes (if so equipped) to load up smaller vessels that come alongside, I guess. And perhaps a helicopter can land on their ship and load up, but it would take great effort, time, and expense to unload a cargo ship via helicopter.

On the plus side, the miitary and the cargo carriers have lots of experience with loading and unloading ships under a variety of conditions, so they should be able to get this worked out.

[backscatter712]

96. The USS Bataan and her amphibious assault group are headed there. And it's a damned good thing.

And yes, those ships will be enormously useful - they've got choppers, LCAC hovercraft, a huge sickbay on the Bataan, water distillation plants, lots of trucks & supplies, and several thousand Marines ready for humanitarian work.

Amphibious assault ships: not just for invasions.

Oh, and the USS Grasp is also in the area, they're working on repairing the port so ships can dock and offload supplies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Planning to invade a country, though logistically similar

operationally is very different

here nobody is trying to do more damage

But if you look at a satellite photo you'd quickly realize Marines would be landing using Amphibs, LCATS and other assets, while paratroopers would not land, but drop from the sky.

Two very different types of operations.

[Jamastiene]

17. Right. They ONLY have the ONE landing strip they can use and no other.

It's not like the USS Carl Vinson is a supercarrier or has a landing strip that can accommodate up to 80 aircraft or anything.

"The super carrier can accommodate approximately 80 aircraft and has a flight deck 4.5 acres (18,000 m²) in size, using four elevators that are 3,880 ft² (360 m²) each to move planes between the flight deck and the hangar bay."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Carl_Vinson_%28CVN-70%29#Description

Nah, they ONLY have that ONE landing strip. :sarcasm:

The US Navy has 10 supercarriers in the Nimitz-class, btw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier

Nah, they can't be used in this situation NOT at all. Nope, they only can use that one landing strip in that one little area they keep linking to. :sarcasm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Carl_Vinson_%28CVN-70%29#2010_Haiti_earthquake


Too bad helicopters and supercarriers haven't been invented yet and that we don't have any at all and we have to rely on only that one little strip for ALL airport needs over there. :sarcasm:

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

25. commercial jets can land on the Carl Vinxon? "accomodate" does not mean "land"

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Two points

they ARE using the Vinson for choppers

And a cargo plane will land on the vinson ONCE, not take off, and create a lot of problems

There is more... you need to be CARRIER certified and CARRIERS do not carry C-130s on board


Of course lets assume they did for a second... how exactly do you bring the cargo to the shore? Oh wait, the port is just now getting repaired.

:eyes: indeed.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. I don't know about you...

...but even if it were possible, I wouldn't want to be a passenger on a commercial aircraft doing a carrier landing when the pilot's never done one before.

You do realize they don't train commercial pilots to land on carriers, right?

[elana i am]

34. the only cargo plane that can land and take off from an aircraft carrier

is the C130. C130s are uniquely designed for short landings and takeoffs that can be jet (read: rocket) assisted. however, they require navy pilots trained to land C130s on aircraft carriers. helicopters are not the most efficient at delivering vast quantities of cargo. they, and the aircraft carrier are better used for search and rescue staging areas and airlifting machinery.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. C-130s are not currently carrier qualified and neither are their pilots. The C-2 is

but its seriously lacking in load. The primary means to move materiel on/off a carrier at sea is helos.

I realize the C-130 has been demonstrated, but it was never standard practice

[StreetKnowledge]

92. Correct. And only one C-130 can use a carrier at one time.

Hercules are big planes, ya know. The C-2 can haul some load, but its a small aircraft.

I do not know why the USAF could simply try to get a grass runway going somewhere. The C-17 Globemaster IS capable of landing on rough fields, as is the C-130.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Second field to open at Jacmel

and third at San Isidro in the DR... they are like doing it.

[backscatter712]

97. I remember seeing pictures & videos of the C-130 landing on a carrier.

Yes, it's not practical - you have to clear the entire deck to make room for the C-130, you have to use JATO pods for the takeoff, the amount of cargo that can be carried is limited. They did it, but that doesn't mean it's useful for the Haiti situation.

[A HERETIC I AM]

98. The tests were conducted in October of 1963 and they did not have to use JATO to take off.

Here's the Lockheed footage from those tests aboard the USS Forrestal;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwJJD5jGXk

They did 29 touch-and-go's and 21 unarrested full stop landings and 21 unassisted takeoffs at gross weights of 85,000 pounds up to 121,000 pounds. Jet Assisted Take Off rockets were not used.

http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c130_forrestal.asp

[TexasProgresive]

51. Les then smart analysis

1) Most planes that carry cargo cannot land on a carrier.
2) The carrier is off shore- so the cargo is ship bound.
3) There are no easy answers.
4) There is no free lunch.

[a la izquierda]

54. oh come on, you cannot be serious...

normally your posts are smart and insightful but this is just silliness. the USNS Comfort embarked from Baltimore the other day and it's still not there yet. Why? Large ships take a while to get anywhere. So, any Navy ships that weren't in the immediate vicinity of the Caribbean will take a while to get there (case in point with the Vinson).
Others have already commented on the insanity of commercial jets landing on aircraft carriers. It's simply not feasible, even though it might be physically possible. My brother-in-law, currently a pilot for Southwest, used to fly KC135s and smaller, Lear Jet types. I doubt highly that he'd want to land one of his 737s on an aircraft carrier, even though I know he's perfectly capable of doing so.

I'm not happy at all with the slowness of the rescue/aid efforts, but I truly think that the government is doing what it can with the absolutely horrendous conditions on the ground.

[PavePusher]

60. A 737 would not be able to land on a carrier.

Not if you wanted eithet one to be useable afterwards....

[a la izquierda]

62. That's the point...

the post I commented on suggested that commercial airliners could land on an aircraft carrier. I'm sure some could, but I don't know planes very well, except the CRJs that I usually fly on out of OKC.

[WolverineDG]

86. It takes special training to land on an aircraft carrier

Not just any pilot can do it. If you overshoot the runway on the ground, you end up in the dirt. If you overshoot the runway on an aircraft carrier, you end up in the water. Oh, and aircraft carriers don't stand still for you either.

But you knew that already, right? Cuz you know how to tell if the pilot of a plane you're on is former Navy or Air Force, right? Right?

:eyes:



dg

[ManiacJoe]

88. And requires specially equipped aircraft.

Tail hooks and super-beefy landing gear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. +100

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. When the military lays out a bare base in the desert they actually include

taxiways etcs. When they can't, they do about what is being done now. Also most bare base fields are not handling any where near the traffic and cargo that is being done in Haiti.

The military cargo planes are vastly superior to civilian ones since they require little to no ground equipment to unload. Vehicles can literally drive off fully loaded.

[dkf]

45. Very interesting.

I'm beginning to think there are more efficient ways to get supplies in but it would piss off a lot of good and well meaning people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Such as?

Someone suggested using the smaller airfields, but did not say what they weight ratings for them are. They might be able to handle a C-130.

[NashVegas]

81. We Don't, We Use Propaganda

And local insurgents.

[malmapus]

85. Speaking from personal experience

Back in 94 when we were about to invade Haiti. On the Army side, the 82nd Airborne was in flight to jump in, enroute from Ft. Bragg. My unit and another that I know of were in GITMO and set to be delivered by choppers.

Along with ships and air drops, I don't see why we can't use the strip at GITMO as a platform and use bigger choppers to make the hop to Haiti from there.


EDIT: Nevermind, if our military wasn't all tied up elsewhere that might have been an option.

[WolverineDG]

87. I read that they already are using Gitmo

some have been transported there for medical treatment, Cuba is allowing US flights to fly in its airspace to get folks to Miami 90 minutes earlier, & stuff is being choppered in to Haiti from Cuba & Gitmo.

dg

[Abq_Sarah]

94. I asked my husband

And he said they'd use an ERO or engine running offload. A C-130, C-17 or similar aircraft will land and drop the ramp part way while they are still moving. As they slow down, they start pushing cargo pallets off the ramp and when it comes to a complete stop, the crew unloads (while the engine is still running). As soon as everything/everyone is off, they immediately take off. They actually hold an international competition called the Air Mobility Rodeo where countries compete for the best time. It's very hazardous but very fast and is generally only used in situations where they have to secure an airport because people are shooting at them.

[backscatter712]

95. Military planes are better equipped for this... Civilian planes are not.

Planes like the C-130 and C-17 have huge wings and flaps for short takeoffs & landings, they're designed so the fuselage is low to the ground, and they have built in ramps in the nose & tail so you can literally drive trucks in and out of them. They'd have the easiest time in Haiti. But not all aircraft are built like that.

As for civilian airliners, they're built so they sit eight feet off the ground on the tarmac, you need all sorts of specialized equipment and trained personnel to load & unload them, and in an airport with very little of that sort of infrastructure, which may have been damaged in the quake, things are gonna get slowed down.

That, and you've got fuel issues. The fuel tanks at the Port au Prince airport are likely damaged or destroyed, and even if they weren't, they'll rapidly be used up by all the air traffic, meaning aircraft coming in has to not only have enough fuel to get there, but also have enough fuel to take off again and fly to some other airport to refuel.

The Port au Prince airport, for these reasons, as well as the lack of a taxiway, lack of tarmac space and a bunch more reasons, is a huge bottleneck. I'm not surprise at all that a lot of aid flights are being turned away - there's no room for them at the moment.

The USAF's doing the best they can to keep things moving, but they've got a lot of problems to deal with.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. Thanks for the post.

One thing I have noticed (and this is getting to be a theme with me in my posts on DU) is that the vast, vast majority of Americans simply have no idea whatsoever about the basics of life in other first world countries, let alone developing countries. Most of us take for granted that our airports are big and work reasonably well, we have ample reserves of fuel (even when it's expensive) and a functioning transport infrastructure, well stocked grocery stores, emergency rooms, massively redundant communications infrastructure, relatively low population density, relatively high levels of education and low levels of infectious diseases. The list goes on, but you get the point.

This is actually starting to irritate me just a little bit. So many ignorant people...

Hey! You! Yes, you - one of the 91% of American's who don't even have a fucking passport and are currently sitting on your fat ass, bitching: Why don't you get out and see a bit of the rest of the world and how they live? Why don't you educate yourself? Education, like, makes you less stupid and stuff.

Sorry, rant over.

[napi21]

6. I understand what you mean. I've given up on rep;ying to posts bitching

about why it takes a ship so long to get there, or why are they turning away planes? People don't understand logistics and that there really isn't any Samantha to tweek her nose and just make shit happen!

[flyarm]

9. Please don't assume people are "bitching" perhaps some people are simply posting information

many people here give a damn and are trying to forward information of what is going on.

I am in Fla near Cent-com, much is going on here in Fla and many of our people have gone down to Haiti, and we have many citizens from Haiti.

I live across the street from the Clearwater Coast guard..our Coast Guard was deployed immediately after the earthquake.

I post what is going on..not for debate ..just to inform.

and yes some of it pisses me off..but I post it to inform.

At the same time we are seeing stuff on our local Fla tv that is unexplainable..and the same questions are being asked by reporters in Haiti..as well as here.

And there are some here at DU that don't want people asking questions...and if people ask wtf is going on ..they are bitching..well damn right I am going to ask questions..people are dying..people are starving, People are dying because they have no water. Somebody damn well better ask questions.

Is it perfect after a disaster of this magnatude..hell no..it can't be, but some stuff defies logic, and common sense.
But when you hear reporters on the ground discussing needless deaths because of no medical care..and medical care is sitting on the ground here in Florida waiting to go and are held back..one must wonder what is going on.

And if it was in your town..you would hope one was wondering why you weren't getting the aide as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You know I like you, but I have a clue about this

with real world experience, unless your reporters.

And this is the MOST COMPLEX DISASTER RESPONSE I HAVE SEEN IN MY LIFE.

It is actually close to what we planed for Tijuanna... oh wait, we actually bothered developing a plan... which is words of improvements over what they had and we had more of an infrastructure. Think about it, they had TWO fire stations for the whole city... which were destroyed... and a PRIVATE ambulance service, as well as a few with the Red Cross, for a city of 3 million. And I thought I had it bad with twenty five counting all the private groups and mine... I was golden... and we had ten fire stations...

But the Airport in Tijuana has similar challenges as this one, even though they can handle more flights... they do have taxi ways after all, which makes a world of difference.

You were aircrew, so you should get this.... Ground control is being done by a few guys and gals, on a folding table and a radio.

Oh and to Tijuana... which has a similar geography in the ciudades perdidas, and challenges to move in equipment, I was still connected to a continent... that makes a world of a difference.

I know it is frustrating, but disaster response is a lot of hurry up and wait, and the infrastructure to handle the flights in and out is minimal, while the other infrastructure was minimal BEFORE the quake.

IT does not help that some of this has to be coordinated with the host government, yes that is Haiti... which is another thing people don't well get. They didn't care much about their population before, why start now? That gets me into some of the political reasons, but really... think about this.

The Mexican Air Force loaded an Airport loader on one of their early flights. It was 10 tons of equipment of the loader that was desperately needed. Dime on the dollar that thing goes back to Mexico, if ever, on a Navy ship in a few months. Yes, they had to go to things like that... equipment for loading and unloading crap. And it was not just the Mexican AF... the USAF brought more equipment as well... they simply did not have it. They were unloading these things by HAND, using human chains.

This is not personal, nor do I need to reach for anything... I was very critical of Katrina, and this makes me more angry about Katrina... you see they were well, like connected to a Continent.

[flyarm]

32. I totally understand..but when i see Spirit air Airlines sitting on the tarmac there

and I know for 2 days a C130 is sitting here in Fla with medical personel that can't go in there and DWOB can't get in there..i have serious questions to wtf is going on..I flew into Haiti as a flight crew long before this disaster..I fully understand the lack of infrastructure then and now..and yes this is worse than perhaps any disaster we have ever seen..but Sprit Air is sitting on the tarmac and Doctors Without Borders can't get in? and Medical teams are sitting here in Tampa since last Wednesday and were supposed to leave last night finally and sat on the C130 all night and were supposed to take off this morning and is still sitting on the ground tonight..and Spirit Air is sitting on the tarmac down there..something is not right.

Maybe others aren't trained to notice that stuff..but I saw it tonight on the CNN report with my own eyes.I know what I saw.
Could Spirit been chartered to bring in supplies..yes ..it could be a MAC flight ..But when i am told by top experts on CNN that surgical teams..plural.. are being held back..I got a serious problem with that when you add all the other medical groups being held back...two serious groups of Doctors without borders with portable operating rooms..

I have flown MAC flights..usually it is search and rescue first and Medical second with food and H2O..that is not happening here...it is a week tommorrow.

yes this is of epic proportions..but have we never learned anything from previous disasters ? Yes getting aircraft in there is tough..but over 100 flights a day have been getting in there..Why not doctors? and surgical teams? and medical supplies?

.. Please don't get me wrong..I am not blaming anyone or saying this is 100% avoidable...but if it doesn't change quickly more and more human lives will be lost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I actually sent a rant to CNN

since they don't get it either

Every plane coming in has experts, or supplies or all that... and it taking out people.

Civilian planes just take longer to unload.

[quiller4]

71. Please don't trust CNN as your authority. Check aid agency web sites

for confirmation. World Concern, Doctors without Borders and World Vision have all repudiated some of CNN's claims.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. CNN is just good to manipupate people

or for trained eyes to get an actual visual of the problems. I love the overflights... they ar great for that... educated eye and all.

And let me add the International Red Cross site, now that they are on disaster mode they are updating every so often... matter of fact, and heart breaking... but you'll never hear it on CNN. Actual help is being felt on the front lines of this effort as of yesterday...

I wonder what is CNN's agenda... oh wait... never mind.

[flyarm]

83. I have and gave 5k to Doctors without borders last Wednesday.

and I am not happy that they have been turned away..when people are dying for lack of medical care and life and death surgeries.
I am watching everything closely and reading everything.

But when all sources are saying the damn same thing..conclusions can be made.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. They are not

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7514622

[flyarm]

99. A week after Haiti quake, aid for all is elusive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_haiti_earthquake

A week after Haiti quake, aid for all is elusive


Those who survived the quake from the beginning but had lost their homes and possessions were growing desperate as they camped out in the streets and in a plaza across from the National Palace.

"We need so much. Food, clothes. We need everything. I don't know whose responsibility it is, but they need to give us something soon," said Sophia Eltime, a 29-year-old mother of two who has been living under a bedsheet with seven members of her extended family. She said she had not eaten yet Tuesday.

It is not just Haitians questioning why aid has been so slow for victims of one of the worst earthquakes in history: an estimated 200,000 dead, 250,000 injured and 1.5 million homeless. Officials in France and Brazil and aid groups such as Doctors Without Borders have complained of bottlenecks, skewed priorities and a crippling lack of leadership and coordination.

"TENS OF THOUSANDS OF EARTHQUAKE VICTIMS NEED EMERGENCY SURGICAL CARE NOW!!!!!" said a news release from Partners in Health, co-founded by Dr. Paul Farmer, the deputy U.N. envoy to Haiti.

"Our medical director has estimated that 20,000 people are dying each day who could be saved by surgery." No details were provided on how the figure was determined.



Aid is being turned back from the single-runway airport, where the U.S. military has come under criticism for poorly prioritizing flights.

Doctors Without Borders said a plane carrying 12 tons of medical equipment, including drugs, surgical supplies and two dialysis machines, had been turned away three times from the Port-au-Prince airport since Sunday night, resulting in the deaths of five patients.

"We were forced to buy a saw in the market to continue amputations," coordinator Loris de Filippi said Tuesday in a statement.


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http://www.sphere.com/world/article/essay-help-is-on-the-way-to-haiti-it-just-cant-get-there/19322459?icid=main|htmlws-main-w|dl3|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sphere.com%2Fworld%2Farticle%2Fessay-help-is-on-the-way-to-haiti-it-just-cant-get-there%2F19322459

Essay: Help Is on the Way; It Just Can't Get There
Updated: 11 hours 28 minutes ago


Emily Troutman Contributor

Emily Troutman will be writing a series of dispatches from Haiti for Sphere. Follow her on Twitter.

SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic (Jan. 19) -- I didn't intend to get so angry, so early. I was hopeful, about the arrival of aid to Haiti -- hopeful, even, that some of my friends trapped in the rubble might be alive. But after two days in the capital of the Dominican Republic, I understand why help is so slow getting there.

Saturday, I flew into Santo Domingo on a commercial American flight. I estimated that 30 percent of the 100 or so passengers might be humanitarian aid workers. Some had uniforms, work boots, sleeping bags, military khakis or T-shirts of various affiliations. Some of them just had the manners of missionaries: exceptionally friendly, verging on obsequious.

The flight attendants became de facto travel agents, setting up people without a way into Port-au-Prince with other groups who had convoys already set up. Overland buses are leaving constantly, but battling the challenges of a poor road and traffic at the border. The journey takes 10 hours.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. And it it wasn't I'd be more than just surprised

you have three million DP, and you need at a bare minimum 1 million to reach all.

You realize what it takes to bring 1 million rations in this amount of time?

THey expect to upscale every day.

They have gone from thousands of rations, in the low thousands, to 200,000

I know it is hard for people to comprehend this.

Is this a perfect response? Show me a perfect response.

And by the way the US is in charge of LOGISTICS, and it is playing delivery man to NGOs and the UN and the LOCAL government that point it in the right direction.

Disasters hundreds of times lower in magnitude, like oh not affecting millions, take that long to spin up.

[aquart]

39. I saw the human chains. I know how slow they are.

No matter how determined. That was primitive.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. Yes, but you're not one of the ones being a total jackass.

Like the dude asking "Why don't we move the UN headquarters to Haiti?" And while I don't agree with some of what you post, it's at least coming from a place of genuine concern, as opposed to many of the idiot tirades frequently posted 'round these parts.

[blondeatlast]

53. I've been getting that same impression. Hell, airports in the US, even international ones,

vary greatly in infrastructure.

Landing a 747 in Phoenix presents vastlty different challenges than landing at LAX--but both are done routinely. And both are done in as ideal of situations as can be.

I've been fortunate to travel to Europe and Asia, seen spectacular airports and virtually refurbished bus stations, in mostly wealthy countries. I keep trying to point out that Haiti was really pretty devastated on MONDAY.

:banghead:

[Dappleganger]

76. Having actually used that airport

you won't see me criticizing the organizers because even in the best of times it hardly qualifies as a secondary airport.

[Skittles]

7. I appreciate these explanations

the media sure isn't letting us know

[okie]

8. I understand the difficulties very well.

I'm just dismayed by the priorities. 11,000 US soldiers and everything it takes to support such a force over doctors and medical equipment and basic necessities. And of course that kind of prioritizing tends to create the security situation which, by the accounts I've read, hasn't really been much of an issue. Port au Prince was no more dangerous this past weekend than on any other weekend. This misleadingly titled piece, for example:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=asYXmlwaWSfQ

"'We haven’t had any security issues at all,' said Abi Weaver, an American Red Cross spokeswoman, in a telephone interview."

But I would imagine that rioting and "looting" becomes more likely when folks go for too long without the basics for survival.

[A HERETIC I AM]

11. You should read the Kos piece I linked in my OP.

The author describes some issues you may not have contemplated. Flying the Red Cross in is one thing.

Getting the plane safely off loaded, refueled and back the hell out of there so another can take its place is entirely another.

[okie]

16. Just finished it.

It's an informative piece. Thanks for posting it. I understand how complicated it is to land and unload and get an airplane the hell out of the way so another can come in. It's important we have people on the ground capable of making all that possible.

But many of the Haitians who have spoken to the media are angered by the country being treated as a war zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F5TwEK24sA&feature=player_embedded

I understand some much needed aid has been, and is currently being distributed. Obviously this is good. But there's no reason to believe the Haitians require an army right now when vital supplies are being turned away or rerouted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. A disaster zone has many similarities to a war zone

no matter where

[okie]

27. I disagree

There are number of fundamental differences, the chief being the lack of any serious violence in Haiti.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. You may disagree, but to paraphrase the logistics officer

who trained me in the finer points of disaster logistics

The difference between a war zone and a disaster zone is that nobody will shoot at you in the latter, we hope.

By the way this was not in the US before you say that... it was in Mexico.

Why all disaster zones, yes even in the US, have security as part of the plan.

[eqfan592]

59. Exactly.

Some may complain about the troops, but those troops are needed to fill a variety of very necessary roles that are vital to the successful operation of any relief effort. And they need to be there in advance of the supplies arriving in order for the supplies to be offloaded and distributed as efficiently as possible.

As much as people want to complain about the situation being treated like a "war zone," it's a situation that simply can't be helped. The similarities are simply too great.

[PavePusher]

61. A war zone is simply a disaster area with heavier gunfire...

The logistics (and problems) are pretty similar, and can't be remedied by wishful thinking or armchair quaterbacking from behind a warm keyboard and a fresh cup of hot coffee.

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. I can't take credit for the find.

DU'r PavePusher put it up in this thread;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7502815

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. That is a great piece that explains why military cargo planes work better that civilian ones

under these circumstances.

[EFerrari]

12. Welcme to DU, okie.

[cliffordu]

13. What makes you say there are 11000 soldiers?

I think if you actually read the article you would realize it speaks to the exact opposite of your conjecture.

Most of the soldiers are delivering food and setting up communications.


The considerable UN presence in Haiti was decapitated in the earthquake Most of the people who died were the people in charge - someone is going to have to pick up their slack.

I have read that one of the biggest problems is the number of international NGO's who cannot coordinate any longer from the loss of the communication center that was the UN.

But I guess we could just dump shit on the beach and hope for the best.

[okie]

23. 11000 have been deployed, correct?

I'm not sure which article you're saying I have not read, but I understand full well there are folks on the ground distributing aid and setting up communications and all that important stuff. Good. There are also a lot of armed men driving around in Humvees maintaining security in what appears to be an extremely desperate, but secure situation.

And no, I do not think we should just dump shit on the beach.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. There maybe that many uniformed personnel involved (not sure)

but they mostly NOT combat troops. The SECGEN of the UN is actually asking for more combat troops at this point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. The Red Cross guy has not seen security

the ERUM rescue crew, the Civil Defense Crew and every other member of the Mexican delegation had UN personnel assigned to them.

For example.

The IDF brought their own.

The chinese brought their own.

And I did see 82nd Airborne personnel on the TV establishing LZs.

[DRoseDARs]

15. I really wish info like this would make detractors stfu, but it won't. At least I'll be informed.

Thank you.

[Dappleganger]

77. It won't as long as arm-chair quarterbackers are around.

I've put a number of them on the iggy list because they generally respond the same for any number of topics.

[Hekate]

18. KnR. The ignorance of basic anything is astounding, imo. Lots of magical thinking...

I'm absolutely sure it could be done better, more efficiently, and I do wonder why the Israelis managed to get a hospital up and running almost immediately while the US ... didn't.

But as far as DU goes, we have several here who actually know what they are talking about from first hand experience, yet the same DUers who were expressing wrath on the second day are even madder now, and still seem to have no grasp of the reality of having no airport, no roads, no port, and no government.

I had a weird exchange with someone who sincerely wanted the dead to be taken care of respectfully, identified, and buried in single graves. And who was plenty angry about the mass graves. In 80 degree heat...

Edited to add: I would very much appreciate the media giving us some actual information about the logistics and rationale of operations like this. For all those who only get their news from ABC, CBS, and NBC -- they'd be doing a wonderful public service.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. The Israelis deployed the same way they always deploy

oh wait, they added the security component. In Mexico City they didn't have to, here they brought armed troops too.

Take into account it is ONE team, that drills for this... not upwards of 10 that we deployed, for example. They also travel a little more light than we do... but some of the gear the Heavy Rescue teams have do save some lives.

[Hekate]

28. I've been wondering for several days: have you thought of writing what you know to Keith and Rachel?

There is a chance that if their researchers could be pointed in the right direction, then we might actually get that bit of public education. Rachel gave us a mini-history of Haiti and its historical importance to the US over two and a half centuries -- she might be open to giving her viewers an overview of the things you keep trying to tell us here.

Just a thought.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I sent a rant on that this afternoon after CNN got really stoopid

on the why did they need to assess the situation, which took oh wait like forever.

I probably should offer the services to those two as well.

[Leopolds Ghost]

57. In Mexico City they didn't have to -- they had to here why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Security on the ground...

in Mexico City the Mexican Army both secured the disaster zone with Military Police, there was this like brigade in the Army Base... and of course city police, oh 10K strong.

Here well that kind of did not exist.

Think about it... it was a SMALLER disaster zone and just the cops... were about the same number of boots on the ground we're bringing.

[EFerrari]

36. Control of the airport is only one consideration.

Why did it take a week to drop food and water?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Purportedly safety concerns, which make some sense

Its risky...that was demonstrated as far back as the Berlin Airlift.
Depending what you read where, there is also:
- No sure if they would be needed.
- Some small drops had been done by helos, but not large scale ones.
- Risk of injuries on the ground
- Lack of flat terrain to do low altitude drag chute

Its really a command level decision (Haitian?) that needs to be made

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Becuase it didn't

they have been doing food and water distributions since day three.

And up-scaling tempo EVERY DAY

[Dappleganger]

78. +1

[malaise]

46. Good but but you can't fault people for asking

why either Hillary or Bill were given priority over the DWB hospital.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. To a point...

Pols ride the cargo flights...no executive jets, even for the Clintons. The supplies got the slot, not the passengers

MSF is whining with nationalistic undertones...losing a lot of respect for them. There are other hospital type relief programs that seem to be able to work withing the system without a lot of bitching.

[malaise]

55. True - they left the jets in Jamaica

:D

[jonathon]

65. Fair question

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Hillary I partially get it

SOS, host government, and I hate VIPs at scenes.

Bill... well lets not go there.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Ten times over. VIPs always detract, but on a political, see we need money. I also get the ugly mug.

Now don't expect W to do this until the place is nice and pretty.

[jobendorfer]

80. there's a deeper logistical issue than the airport

As critical as moving people and supplies through the 1-runway, 40 flights/day airport is for the short term --

There is no way we can fly all of the food, water, and equipment Haiti is going to need over the next 6 months to a year
through that airport, no matter what.

Aircraft payloads are measured in thousands of *pounds*.

Ship cargos are measured in *tens* of thousands of *tons*.

I hope somebody has gotten a Navy construction battalion into the damaged port.
Once they can dock one or two cargo ships there, the pressure goes off the airport.
One ship can deliver more cargo than that airport could in a week.

Never underestimate the carrying capacity of a slow-moving, but high density vehicle.
Somewhat akin to "never underestimate the bandwidth of a truckful of tapes driving down the highway."

Yes, the Air Force can fly entire divisions of *troops* across the world in a few days ...
then they sit waiting a month for their trucks, tanks, artillery, and ammunition to arrive by ship.

J.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. They are already on it

the hard hat divers arrived and started work like oh yesterday

If the port is not that damaged they'll have it back for very primitive opps in 72 hours, if it was like really badly damaged, two weeks

[Abq_Sarah]

91. Thank you

For posting that image of the Toussaint Louverture Airport. That really highlights what a nightmare it must be to coordinate all the relief flights. There is simply no place to stack up and unload all the aircraft that want landing clearance on demand.