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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:06 AM
Original message
WTF -Gunman kills eight and shoots at police helicopter in Virginia
Edited on Wed Jan-20-10 06:10 AM by malaise
http://www.mysinchew.com/node/34282
<snip>
A gunman went on the rampage in the US state of Virginia, killing eight people and shooting a police helicopter taking part in a hunt for him, officials said.

A 39-year-old man was believed to be surrounded early Wednesday after the shootings in a rural district near Appomattox in southern Virginia. Police confirmed that there were eight dead.

The suspect, named as Christopher Speight, shot a helicopter that was called to the scene at least four times, forcing it to make an emergency landing, officials said.

"More than 100 deputies, officers and state troopers will continue working through the night to locate and apprehend the armed subject" Virginia State Police said in a statement.
-------
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/us/20virginia.html


add link, pic
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Heard the story as I was driving toward Antietam, MD.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Virginians do love them some guns and ammo. Rampage murder is the result.
Apparently, this man has no criminal record.

He was a law abiding citizen right up until the moment he wasn't.

Do you suppose his judgment could have been clouded by the fact that he had a gun?

It certainly gave him the power to settle grievances in a spur-of-the-moment way.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Your logic is flawed, you are confusing cause and effect




http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/confusing-cause-and-effect.html




Fallacy: Confusing Cause and Effect

Also Known as: Questionable Cause
Description of Confusing Cause and Effect

Confusing Cause and Effect is a fallacy that has the following general form:

1. A and B regularly occur together.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.

This fallacy requires that there is not, in fact, a common cause that actually causes both A and B.

This fallacy is committed when a person assumes that one event must cause another just because the events occur together. More formally, this fallacy involves drawing the conclusion that A is the cause of B simply because A and B are in regular conjunction (and there is not a common cause that is actually the cause of A and B). The mistake being made is that the causal conclusion is being drawn without adequate justification.

In some cases it will be evident that the fallacy is being committed. For example, a person might claim that an illness was caused by a person getting a fever. In this case, it would be quite clear that the fever was caused by illness and not the other way around. In other cases, the fallacy is not always evident. One factor that makes causal reasoning quite difficult is that it is not always evident what is the cause and what is the effect. For example, a problem child might be the cause of the parents being short tempered or the short temper of the parents might be the cause of the child being problematic. The difficulty is increased by the fact that some situations might involve feedback. For example, the parents' temper might cause the child to become problematic and the child's behavior could worsen the parents' temper. In such cases it could be rather difficult to sort out what caused what in the first place.

In order to determine that the fallacy has been committed, it must be shown that the causal conclusion has not been adequately supported and that the person committing the fallacy has confused the actual cause with the effect. Showing that the fallacy has been committed will typically involve determining the actual cause and the actual effect. In some cases, as noted above, this can be quite easy. In other cases it will be difficult. In some cases, it might be almost impossible. Another thing that makes causal reasoning difficult is that people often have very different conceptions of cause and, in some cases, the issues are clouded by emotions and ideologies. For example, people often claim violence on TV and in movies must be censored because it causes people to like violence. Other people claim that there is violence on TV and in movies because people like violence. In this case, it is not obvious what the cause really is and the issue is clouded by the fact that emotions often run high on this issue.

While causal reasoning can be difficult, many errors can be avoided with due care and careful testing procedures. This is due to the fact that the fallacy arises because the conclusion is drawn without due care. One way to avoid the fallacy is to pay careful attention to the temporal sequence of events. Since (outside of Star Trek), effects do not generally precede their causes, if A occurs after B, then A cannot be the cause of B. However, these methods go beyond the scope of this program.

All causal fallacies involve an error in causal reasoning. However, this fallacy differs from the other causal fallacies in terms of the error in reasoning being made. In the case of a Post Hoc fallacy, the error is that a person is accepting that A is the cause of B simply because A occurs before B. In the case of the Fallacy of Ignoring a Common Cause A is taken to be the cause of B when there is, in fact, a third factor that is the cause of both A and B. For more information, see the relevant entries in this program.
Examples of Confusing Cause and Effect

1. Bill and Joe are having a debate about music and moral decay:
Bill: "It seems clear to me that this new music is causing the youth to become corrupt."
Joe: "What do you mean?"
Bill: "This rap stuff is always telling the kids to kill cops, do drugs, and abuse women. That is all bad and the kids today shouldn't be doing that sort of stuff. We ought to ban that music!"
Joe: "So, you think that getting rid of the rap music would solve the drug, violence and sexism problems in the US?"
Bill: "Well, it wouldn't get rid of it all, but it would take care of a lot of it."
Joe: "Don't you think that most of the rap singers sing about that sort of stuff because that is what is really going on these days? I mean, people often sing about the conditions of their time, just like the people did in the sixties. But then I suppose that you think that people were against the war and into drugs just because they listened to Dylan and Baez."
Bill: "Well..."
Joe: "Well, it seems to me that the main cause of the content of the rap music is the pre-existing social conditions. If there weren't all these problems, the rap singers probably wouldn't be singing about them. I also think that if the social conditions were great, kids could listen to the music all day and not be affected."
Bill: "Well, I still think the rap music causes the problems. You can't argue against the fact that social ills really picked up at the same time rap music got started."

2. It is claimed by some people that severe illness is caused by depression and anger. After all, people who are severely ill are very often depressed and angry. Thus, it follows that the cause of severe illness actually is the depression and anger. So, a good and cheerful attitude is key to staying healthy.

3. Bill sets out several plates with bread on them. After a couple days, he notices that the bread has mold growing all over it. Bill concludes that the mold was produced by the bread going bad. When Bill tells his mother about his experiment, she tells him that the mold was the cause of the bread going bad and that he better clean up the mess if he wants to get his allowance this week.

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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Bullets entering body = dead / dying. Cause and effect.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. The cause and effect you eluded to...
...was that having a gun clouded his judgment.

you wrote:

"Do you suppose his judgment could have been clouded by the fact that he had a gun"

This is what I replied to.


You have now changed the subject to:

"Bullets entering body = dead / dying. Cause and effect."

Your second statement is far more logical.


Are you agreeing with me that the suppositon in your first statement is a fallicy?

Or do you have evidence that "his judgment could have been clouded by the fact that he had a gun"

Your reasoning is hard to follow.

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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Right on cue...
..Rampage murder is the result of owning guns and ammo...Awesome

There are 10s MILLIONS of people that own and shoot guns in this country and DO NOT EVER aim them at anyone or anything other than a paper target. I will agree that with a gun, you can kill more people in a shorter amount of time...but the overwhelming majority of people that own guns (I have several myself) never shoot anyone.

Your hyperbole and anti-gun hysteria are duly noted and further ignored...
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. This man was one of those very people. Until he snapped.
How many more are like him?

Guess we will continue to find out.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. +1
There is no way he was killing those eight people without the convenience of said guns.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. What leads you believe that?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. +2
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Yep. Change the constitution or sit down..
the anti booze people had the balls, at least their failure was clearly documented in history.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. no kidding. VT has the laxest gun laws in the nation
don't see too many rampages here- or murders.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. good point
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Illinois talking about gun deaths?
Heh.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Never miss an opportunity to turn a tragedy into your own personal soapbox!
My thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Wow, it's like logic is your mortal enemy.
And you must avoid it at all costs.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Do not group all Virginians together like that.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. In those thick woods,
they might want to track him with dogs on a short leash. He could pick them off until he runs out of ammo if they aren't careful. Hopefully he isn't a good enough marksman to take head shots. It will be hard to get any remote heat sensing up since he is shooting at helicopters.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The thing is that apparently he wants to live after killing
all these people. Human beings never fail to amaze me.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. And that surprises you?
Self preservation it a pretty basic instinct.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. Another day, another armed psycho shooting friends, relatives, neighbors and law enforcement.
Edited on Wed Jan-20-10 07:27 AM by geckosfeet
WTF.

Guns and poor mental health do not mix.


Bethel Hawkins, who lives about two miles from the shooting scene, said the police had warned families to lock their doors. “We’re just being cautious, keeping our doors locked, not going outside," Mr. Hawkins said, adding: "We're not going out in the dark not knowing what's out there. But we trust in the Lord to take care of us."

Virginia Gunman Kills 8 and Shoots at the Police


Advice to Mr.Bethel - don't wait for the lord to protect your ass from psycho gun toters.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. this country has a lot of bat shit crazy people
giving them access to guns is just fucking stupid, plain and simple. The ease and access to guns is directly related to supply and demand by gun manufacturers. Laws that regulate guns, hinders their bottom line. This isn't about what's in the constitution, for anyone reading it knows what it actually says, instead of what the NRA wants people to believe it says.

"Well Regulated Militia"
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Then why did the manufacturers and the NRA support the NICS?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. And apparently don't wait for the police to protect you either.
What do you suggest gecko?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Or the cops.
Keep a rifle by the door.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Or closer.
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