I can not think of anything more offensive than America torturing people

[Winterblues]

I do not want to move forward on this issue.. I want Democrats to stand tall and tell America they are against torture with every fiber of their being and will not let any slide that have practiced it under the previous Administration..Next time the Torturers get back into the Whitehouse they will continue the practice because no one has held them accountable for it..That Brown, an open advocate of torture could win an election to the US Senate is mind boggling. IMO this should not just be left hanging as the Obama Administration seems to want..

[Flaneur]

1. I want names. Not just those at the top.

But also those rank-and-file torturers and murderers. Where are they now? Serving on a police force near you?

[hj99]

5. Geez.....

You want names? I am glad you are not entitled to names because you would clearly try to ruin some good people. Saying all who tortured as a part of an interrogation are bad is like saying anyone who has ever killed is bad. You just cannot lay a blanket statement on issues like that. I am not sure what world you think exists outside the comfort of your home. There are a lot of really bad people out there who don't care how indignant you are or what your morals are. I am sure if they are ever within spitting distance of you they will appreciate the help you gave them in getting there right before they kill you and take all of your stuff.

[Swede]

6. Torture doesn't work.

Experts agree on that.

[Winterblues]

7. So you are for America torturing people, in the name of security of course...

:puke:

[Swede]

9. "all who torture aren't bad"

boggles the mind,doesn't it?

[hj99]

11. ......

Not at all. It may boggle your mind but thankfully we don't all share your naivete. Torture has it's use just as other unsavory things like killing do. But some people imagine the world to be a shiny place full of butterflies and unicorns. I know a lot of you have never been in a desperate place or known anything outside your insulated worlds and you are simply incapable of understanding. The more intellectual someone thinks they are the less common sense and real world understanding they seem to have. The world is not a nice place often...sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes doesn't change it.

[Swede]

15. that darn naive army and their naive Field Manual-

Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:
"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."


http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/chapter1.htm

[annabanana]

16. um. . all torture does is give you the answers the victim thinks you want...

truth be damned


(this place really stinks)

[hj99]

20. ..

Oh give me a break...you would not agree with it if the manual said it WAS useful most of the time. Nice selective details.

Nobody said it is preferred or always delivers good info...but it is a tool that should be left in the tool box not turned into a political cause by people who have no concept of the context. If suburbia or the people who fancy themselves the "real" intellectuals ruled the world with their naive views things would collapse in a couple of days.

[annabanana]

22. I didn't say anything about a manual. . jeez

learn the architecture before you poop in it

[hj99]

28. ....

Or what? You are not very nice are you?

[Swede]

36. So,when an American prisoner gets tortured,that's just tough tits,right?

Cause,that what it leads to.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. Thanks for being so brazen. Makes things much easier.

Goodbye, psycho.

[hj99]

21. Really?

Goodbye? What because I disagree with you I should be muzzled? That is puzzling.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. I bet LOTS of things are puzzling for you.

Like, why private entities can regulate what speech is admissible in their premises, and yet not violate the 1st Amendment.

Free Republic bans any poster that shows sympathy to Democrats. But you, of course, are perfectly OK with that.

[hj99]

29. ...

What are you on about? I am not a Free Republic member. Must you be so "with us or against us"?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Yep, as I thought. Primitive thought processes. No reading comprehension whatsoever.

Like all of its kind.

Pathetic and devoid of usefulness, except as subject of a study on the failure of the educational system.

[hj99]

47. Done yet?

I would love to see you speak like this in real life...where those around you held you accountable for your words. Most likely you would not have the gall to do so and that's why you act out on the internet. Do you really believe it's not obvious?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. If you barged into an anti-war meeting saying these things, I'd say that and worse.

Of course, people with less patience than I might not limit themselves to talking.

[Winterblues]

31. The world has actually been around a little longer than you and your infinite wisdom.

Torture has been used throughout the ages and the entire world has come to a universal consensus over it. It is barbaric and does not work. I am sorry Mr. Cheney but you are just plain wrong besides being a monster to boot..

[EstimatedProphet]

59. Yeah, torture has its use...

namely, terrifying a population into submission. That's about it. Your belief otherwise makes you wrong, not the fact wrong.

[Forkboy]

13. If torture isn't so bad lets start with you and your wife.

[hj99]

32. eh?

That doesn't make any sense. Myself and my wife are not suspects in bad actions. Do you really think people are tortured if there isn't a lot of evidence that they are involved in something? It's not like TV you know.

I can't see why you think not being against torture in all cases is the same as saying "yay torture is good!!!". Of COURSE I wouldn't want it done to me...just like I don't want to be shot or blown up or put in prison. But there are people who need those things done for the good of the masses. Is it really so black and white for you? Do you really think that not screaming how torture should be illegal equals supporting it being done to all?

[Forkboy]

35. I suspect you are suspects in bad actions,

and since you won't admit to them there's only way to find out for sure. On the rack, dude.

[hj99]

37. ugh...

You are either misunderstanding or purposefully being argumentative. The latter is much more likely. I am glad people like you are not in charge. Your absoluteness is far scarier to me than what goes on in real life.

[Forkboy]

41. Awwww, you'll live.

Go pet a puppy or something.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. WHAT? No way, don't let a puppy anywhere near this fellow!

Why do you hate puppies?

[hj99]

45. :|

You bore me.

[Forkboy]

46. It must be torture here for you.

[hj99]

48. Nope

A couple of posters like yourself that are making a lot of noise are annoying for sure...but hardly torture.

[Forkboy]

52. For someone pretty boring I seem to have your attention.

It's my dashing good looks, isn't it?

[hj99]

54. Right.

Mosquitoes get your attention too by buzzing about and biting you. They are still pests.

[Forkboy]

57. See?

:rofl:

[EOTE]

51. Does that include Americans too?

Are Americans fair game for torture by other Americans as well? Do you think the Geneva Conventions are worthless? Or perhaps only worthy of being followed when we especially want to? Also do you believe that other countries should have the right to torture captured Americans if it needs to be done "for the good of the masses" as well? I'm rather interested.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. Boom. Gone. Please go sodomize yourself with a multifunction printer.

Sideways.

[Shell Beau]

64. Funny how cop hate creeps up in so many conversations on DU.

[katsy]

2. I'm with you on the matter of torture.

It is never legal and always carried out by the most sociopathic among us, sick, twisted criminals who belong behind bars not in our military or police.

But there are days when I wonder if my fellow neighbors and friends happily accept torture as a means to save their exceptional American asses.

My beliefs in people has been shattered today. I better shut up.

[kgnu_fan]

3. US history is full of torture since the beginning - understanding of our history first is a start

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090524.htm
The Torture Memos
Noam Chomsky
chomsky.info, May 24, 2009

[Hubert Flottz]

4. "they will continue the practice"

Or worse...most criminals go on to commit even more serious crimes when they get away with the lesser ones.

The Nazis got away with beating up the Jews and the social democrats at first and nobody stopped them, so they went on to deporting them and taking everything they owned but still nobody intervened and then they put them in "ghettos" and started shooting a few hundred thousand, after that, they starting rounding up every Jew in Europe and so on...

Obama and the rest of the passive centrist democrats in washington might be blowing the last best chance we have of saving our country and it's sad to see them betting our future on their pipe dream called "Bipartisanship." I haven't seen much of the change we were promised. I know that if the GOP still ran things they would be much worse. I'm sick of both parties putting politics and pipe dreams ahead of what's best for the country and EVERYBODY in it.

[OnyxCollie]

8. I can think of something more offensive than America torturing people.

Those who can rationalize and excuse it.

[hj99]

12. uh huh

Yeah training dogs to jump through a hoop on command is so much more righteous and world changing. I am offended by all the people who are offended by everything. When are you types NOT outraged about something?

[Forkboy]

14. You could have at least tried to make it to 10 posts.

:rofl:

[hj99]

17. ?

Are you doing that thing people do where they don't agree with someone so they call them a troll and push for them to be banned?

Why are you not tolerant of other points of view?

[Forkboy]

18. Yes, that's what I'm doing.

But before you go, why not share your last name that you tried here? :hi:

[hj99]

24. ok then

Have a mod look me up...I have not posted here before.

I came here because I was searching for info on Sanjay Gupta and the claim he stayed with patients when the Belgians left. I have info from someone there that isn't true and Googled the event. That's all. No nefarious attempts to troll or pretend I am someone else. Relax.

[Forkboy]

30. uh huh.

:rofl:

[hj99]

33. ?

Are emoticons and snide remarks the limit of your posting ability?

[Forkboy]

39. I'm not looking for serious discussions with torture apologists.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. As I said before...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4233659&mesg_id=4233948

[Forkboy]

44. It's like Rush asking why we can't have a serious conversation about race.

Sometimes you just know ahead of time that it's a waste. ;)

[annabanana]

23. I'm sure you find lots and lots of support here for your pro-torture stance

:sarcasm:

[hj99]

27. And?

Leaving torture as an option is not "pro torture". I simply do not agree that it is as horrible as you do when it fits the situation. My problem with folks like you is that you have no concept of the situations and context in which it would even take place. Watching Jack on 24 is the closest you will ever come to understanding the situation as it really is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Why, do you have personal experience in these matters? -nt

[Swede]

50. He actually brings up "24" and Jack Bauer.

It really is Dick Cheney.

[Forkboy]

53. Probably faps to the damn show.

[EstimatedProphet]

60. OK, now I know you're joking

Bringing up 24, a fictional show that is written to prove that torture works - as proof that torture works?

I'm going to assume that you don't get it and explain reality to you. The reason torture works on 24 is that the plot is written so that torture works on 24. I bet you're also completely convinced from TV shows that anytime a car runs off the road, it bursts into flames.

[Winterblues]

26. Anyone that favors torture does not belong on this site.

This site is for progressive people not regressive monsters..

[hj99]

42. Amazing

Wow...if you could see how much you are like the people you consider arch enemies over at FR...I am sure I would be jumped on just the same for not toeing the party line if I registered over there. Both ends so self righteous and indignant. From my point of view you are both on extreme ends of the game. Bizarre.

Your constant assertions that I am PRO torture is weird. There is a clear difference between not saying something should be illegal and saying something is a first line go to method.

[Winterblues]

55. What is amazing is how you don't understand the obscenity that is torture

It makes America a far worse country. There is absolutely zero benefit, and tremendous harm to be obtained from torture and anyone that advocates for it does not belong in a civilized society let alone on a progressive forum..

[duhneece]

67. Amen

I find it absurd to use a tv show's fake story plot lines to justify what is wrong.

[Zix]

58. Yeah,

You might want to have a thing about that "spectrum" thing. What IS it, exactly?

[kenny blankenship]

10. That's so backward looking! You keep looking back like that and bringing up "the law" and stuff

and if you aren't careful, pretty soon there are going to be charges flying around, and people dragged into courts and prosecution of torture will lead to charges of illegal kidnapping and warrantless mass electronic surveillance, and that will just be a shopping cart full of old boring ick that nobody wants to hear about.

Talk about awkward!

[EstimatedProphet]

61. I have tried to wrap my head around this for a long time.

Occasionally, I play a little thought game, kind of a testing-to-extremes in ideas about what's the worst that can happen. Kind of like thinking "X is a prick. I hope someone spits in his face. No, I hope someone slaps him. No wait - punches him..." etc. etc. Take it as far as I can, and I have never been able to figure out what could be worse in that chain than torture.

This isn't America anymore. Maybe it never really was, but it sure isn't now.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. Have you ever read "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"?

From the mindset of these people, and how many of them there are, I'm starting to think somebody is doing R&D to build the necessary hardware as we speak.

[Solly Mack]

62. It's not mind boggling that an advocate of torture can win the Senate

when you consider that he won't be alone in Congress, much less the Senate, in being an advocate of torture. There are quite a few advocates and rubber-stampers of torture/war crimes in Congress.


The U.S. government committed war crimes - and those war criminals are walking around, free - pretending to be a humanitarian in one case.

I won't be 'moving forward' on this issue either.

[timeforpeace]

63. You can't think of ANYTHING as more offensive? How about honor killings in the Muslim world?

[Shell Beau]

66. The point is we usually put ourselves above that, yet much of the time,

our actions can show otherwise.