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How Stupid Do You Have to Be to Think that Bribery and Speech Are the Same Thing?

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:11 PM
Original message
How Stupid Do You Have to Be to Think that Bribery and Speech Are the Same Thing?
Well, the illustrious Supreme Court of the United States did it again. Their decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, which in effect said that bribery of government officials and candidates for high elective office is a form of constitutionally protected “speech” brings to mind some of the most despicable ideas I’ve ever encountered, including: the Dred Scott decision that said that black people are property rather than people; the Bush v. Gore decision of 2000 which raised the bar for judicial hypocrisy to a new record high; and George Orwell’s futuristic fictional account in which war is peace, slavery is freedom, and ignorance is strength.


Bribery

A common definition of bribery is:

the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of something of value for the purpose of influencing the action of an official in the discharge of his or her public or legal duties.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense who is familiar with the political system practiced in the United States of America is aware that the system is rife with bribery, and that that bribery makes a mockery of the pretension that our country is founded upon democracy.

All but the most naïve of the American citizenry know that the wealthy and powerful in our country routinely influence our local and national elections through huge campaign contributions. And they also know that they are generally well rewarded for their “contributions”. And they also know that bribery is presumably against the law in our country. Yet, on the rare occasion that our politicians are actually accused of bribery, our news media makes a great big deal over it, as if bribery is actually a rare event in American politics.

The end result is that a great many of our politicians do everything they can to make their wealthiest constituents happy with them, at the expense of everyone else. They do that with the knowledge that the voters they lose in doing so will be more than compensated for by the disinformation that will be paid for by their wealthiest constituents. I discuss this situation in more detail here, here, and here.

There are a few dots to connect here, but any reasonable assessment of American politics tells us that bribery is routinely used to buy and sell elections in our country. So routine is it that it is actually built into our system and legalized. But that fact is never overtly spoken of. To do so would imply that our system of government is as much or more an aristocracy than it is a democracy.

Bill Moyers, in his book “Moyers on Democracy”, shows that he understands the difference between bribery and speech:

We have lost the ability to call the most basic transaction by its right name. If a baseball player stepping up to home plate were to lean over and hand the umpire a wad of bills before he called the pitch, we’d call that a bribe. But when a real estate developer buys his way into the White House and gets a favorable government ruling that wouldn’t be available to you or me, what do we call that? A “campaign contribution”.

Let’s call it what it is: a bribe.


Speech

For those who don’t understand the difference between bribery and speech, consider the First Amendment to our Constitution. In its entirety, it reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Granted, the First Amendment does not define “speech”. Perhaps our Founding Fathers felt no need to define such a basic word. Perhaps it never occurred to them that some future corrupt judicial officials might have the audacity to use the First Amendment’s protection of speech to include protection of the right to bribe public officials.

But if one considers the context of the whole First Amendment, one should note a common thread between the various rights that it protects: freedom of religion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press; freedom of peaceable assembly; and freedom to petition the government. What all these freedoms have in common is the freedom to express one’s opinion.

Bribery, as one can see from the definition quoted above, involves far more than the expression of an opinion. It involves the attempt to influence government officials to enact laws favorable to the briber – at the expense of most of the nation’s other citizens. If bribery is equated with “speech” simply because it involves an expression of opinion, then every act conceivable to the human mind also involves an expression of opinion. Rape involves an expression of opinion. Murder involves an expression of opinion – the opinion that one doesn’t want the murder victim to live. Should these things be protected by our First Amendment?


Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission

Oh, what a noble sounding organization – “Citizens United”! And what a noble sounding goal – the protection of our First Amendment rights to free speech! The nobility of this goal drips from the hypocritical rationalizations of our Supreme Scumbuckets:

This case cannot be resolved on a narrower ground without chilling political speech, speech that is central to the First Amendment’s meaning and purpose.

Oh, gee! They are so concerned with protecting our First Amendment. They even use a phrase that is normally used by liberals: “chilling political speech”. So, if they’re so concerned about protecting our First Amendment, where were they when the Bush administration limited our right of free speech to its “First Amendment Zones” whenever the Bush administration wanted to hide from public view the opinions of those who disagreed with them? Such actions, and many others, constituted a direct attack on our First Amendment rights to free speech, and yet nothing was ever done about it.

And consider this part of the Scumbuckets’ opinion:

This Court now concludes that independent expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption. That speakers may have influence over or access to elected officials does not mean that those officials are corrupt. And the appearance of influence or access will not cause the electorate to lose faith in this democracy.

So that we don’t miss the point, they refer to those who lobby and give millions of dollars to public officials as “speakers”. And they claim furthermore that these “expenditures” “do not give rise to corruption” or even the appearance of corruption. What world do these creeps live in?!! How stupid do they think the American people are?


Analogy with Bush v. Gore

The parallel between this decision and the Bush v. Gore decision, in which George W. Bush won election to the presidency of the United States by a vote of 5-4, is no coincidence. Three of the justices are the same idiots – Scalia, Thomas and Kennedy. The other two who contributed to this destruction of our democracy were appointed to the Supreme Court by the man who was the beneficiary of Bush v. Gore.

I discussed this abomination in the first article I ever wrote for the Democratic Underground, before I was even a member (I wrote it under my son’s name because as a federal worker I was afraid at the time of breaking federal rules.) As I said above, Bush v. Gore set a new record for high level judicial hypocrisy. The core of the decision was the equal protection clause of our 14th Amendment to our Constitution:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The purpose of this clause in our 14th Amendment was to give all our citizens equal protection under the laws of our country. Enacted in 1868, just three years after the conclusion of our Civil War, it was especially created in response to the need to ensure the protection of our former slaves.

Just as in their decision to legalize bribery by equating it with speech, in Bush v. Gore they single-handedly elevated an incompetent and corrupt man to the presidency of the United States under the guise of protecting our right to equal protection under the law.

The premise under which that was accomplished was that that the hand counting of paper ballots was unfair because different jurisdictions used different standards. In coming to that conclusion, the 5 “justices” totally ignored the fact that the election results as they currently stood were based on election machines that were disproportionately poorly constructed – and therefore often failed to register the voters’ intent – in areas of the state of Florida that contained disproportionate numbers of minorities and the poor. They also totally ignored the fact that jurisdictions throughout the United States, and within almost every state used widely differing methods for counting votes. By the standards they claimed to espouse, the electoral votes of almost every state in the country should have been ruled invalid. Thus was their excuse for halting the counting of votes and “electing” the worst president in the history of our country.

Vincent Bugliosi, in an article titled “None Dare Call it Treason”, summed up the absurdity of perhaps the most corrupt Supreme Court decision in our history:

And if the Court's five-member majority was concerned not about Bush but the voters themselves, as they fervently claimed to be, then under what conceivable theory would they, in effect, tell these voters, "We're so concerned that some of you under-voters may lose your vote under the different Florida county standards that we're going to solve the problem by making sure that none of you under-voters have your votes counted"?


In conclusion

The legality of currying favor with public officials through bribery has now been enshrined by the highest court in our land, on the proposition that bribery is synonymous with “speech”. But the absurdity of that contention should be obvious to anyone with some primary school education. The danger to our democracy should be obvious. If one billionaire or powerful corporation has one thousand times as much opportunity to “speak” through their money than several thousand other people added together, the “speech” of that one billionaire will drown out the speech of most other people, thereby interfering with their right to speech and making a mockery of our pretensions to democracy. As long as bribery is equated with "speech", democracy has no hope.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Maybe you could Marry a Corporation - SC said their People
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Learning Nomad Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. What do you mean by "their" people? Whose people are they?
Anyway, the SC decision didn't say that. It's a freedom of speech issue, upon which the SC ruled correctly. The Constitution does not confer rights, it bans Congress from infringing on them. Groups such as the ACLU, NYT, John Birch Society, National Enquirer have free speech. Congress cannot infringe upon it.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Nomad FTW you talking about - did you read any of it?
relying on the holding in Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce , 494 U. S. 652 , that political speech may be banned based on the speaker’s corporate identity.

throughout the litigation, Citizens United has asserted a claim that the FEC has violated its right to free speech;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-205.ZS.html


Any one of the citizens that make up the entity of the Corporation - "Citizens United" could have distributed that video on their own. The Laws governing Corporations and Union PACs would not have applied

But neither would have the Protections granted under a Corporate Charter protecting an individual's private property under penalties of Civil Suit for Liable and Slander
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. What do political contributions to public officials have to do with speech?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. Aww he got banned.
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COLGATE4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You are absolutely right. Impassioned reasoning
but legally way off base.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Interesting that you provide an assertion with absolutely no reasoning or justification
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. You don't see the lack of reasoning in YOUR post?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. >>I was assuming some semblance of intelligence on the part of the readers.
Fine. Then explain your position, instead of just asserting that the OP's is stupid.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Let Me See -- "Wrong On So Many Levels..." "It Scares Me..."
..."such bullshit..."

Such incisive rebuttal. You win!!!!!

: )
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. what a ridiculous comment. -1 to you, KR to the OP.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Is something wrong with you.........
you must of wandered to the wrong site! Keep wandering!
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Learning Nomad Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. What, you have to be stupid and against constitutional rights to be on this site? Guess I am a
at the wrong place.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I'm all for constitutional rights. For meat people.
If corporations were really controlled by their shareholders I might see your point, but they are NOT. Can't even get *non-binding* shareholder votes on executive compensation on the table. Tell you something?
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Learning Nomad Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. So NYT Shareholders are responsible for the opinions of the editors?
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
55. Yes, your jerk/@#$^le
They hired them. If they meant them to be independent, that's their choice. If they meant them to toe the party line, that's their choice. But are they responsible to the vision of the people who hired them? Yes. And nobody is responsible, in the final analysis, except individual meat people.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
95. is that why they give away so much stock to to the board to stack the deck against the
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
77. I am glad you're sooooo concerned about constitutional rights
I bet you were absolutely livid when they passed the Patriot Act. And, how about suspending habeas corpus and posse comitatus, or illegal wiretapping? But, yep, those corporations have the right of free speech and they can funnel billions into campaigning against any candidate that might rock the boat on 'em, After all, you're just defending the constitution, right?
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. apparently that's the case here.
i'm referring to "wandering". :eyes:
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. So you think you and, oh, say, Exxon-Mobil would be an equal match?
If free speech is money, better start saving up.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. fascism is antithetical to Free Speech
nothing you could possibly say will change that fact. People like you need to fool themselves.... pathetic.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bravo
Well said.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Y'know, taking congressmembers on expensive trips
Edited on Sat Jan-23-10 05:35 PM by wtmusic
and buying them theater tickets are expressions of speech too.

If we muzzle corporate America's right to "speak" to their congressmembers, where oh where does it end? :cry:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. currying favor with public officials through bribery has now been enshrined by the highest court in
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
80. Kinda leaves us begging for enquiries into THEIR finances, doesn't it? nt
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. the fascist five aren't confused; they're trying to confuse US.
they know full well what the difference is, they're simply lying to us about it.

this is by now a well-established pattern for them going back at least as far as bush v. gore. they come first to the conclusion they want, i.e., side with republicans, right-wingers, and corporations, and then dress their decision up in some fig leaf pseudo-intellectual crap to disguise the fact of their naked partisanship.

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Opienawa Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Supreme Court fascist five
I don't think they truly believe they are confusing/fooling, let alone lying to, us: I believe they know they can, and will at least for some some, get away with it. The thing to do, on our part, is simply to keep on doing precisely what we're doing now, and to write to our senators and representatives. This will continue to work and be the law until some other branch of government, probably only Congress can do squat about it, creates the incisive language necessary to tear down their particular argument. So, keep on keeping on and get to it, all! All for one and one for all, for collectively, by history, is the best route to the holy grail, the brass ring, whatever your goal may be.
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. "ignorance is strength"
Wow, the Republicans already trumpet this one!

I'm NOT saying all Republicans are stupid; I'm pointing out that, as a party, the GOP celebrates ignorance as a virtue.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Time to make paying for our elected officials to hear our voice illegal...
All voices should be equal.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. I can think of one way to nullify the effect of this ruling - always, always,
always vote for the candidate with most lackluster TV, radio and print ads.

Stands to reason that they would be the ones with the most corporate backing.
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The Hitman Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. PQ Doctrine
Back in the day, SCOTUS justices knew their role and they didn't stick their nose where it didn't belong -- in politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_question

Bush v. Gore and this case are alike for more reasons than listed above. Somewhere along the line this was left by the wayside. The Rehnquist-Roberts Courts, for all the bullshit we hear from the Right about "judicial activism", are clearly the most activist in recent memory and weigh in on issues that shouldn't be in front of Article 3 judges.

Perhaps Obama should propose a court-packing plan like FDR did.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. The real question is not how stupid. It's how corrupt and sleazy. nt
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It's both.
Glenn Beck is corrupt and sleazy. His listeners are stupid.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
62. Absolutely
Five USSC justices are corrupt and sleazy. Those who believe their bullshit contending that money is speech are stupid or ignorant.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Uh, here's a news flash for you
since you obviously have spent all your time hyperventilating and not actually reading and understanding the decision. None of the justices in this case agree with you. Even the four dissenting justices did not argue that restricting the ways that money can be used towards promoting political causes can't be unconstitutional. Shall we impeach them all?

Here's a more detailed discussion, if you can get off your righteous high horse for a moment:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/23/citizens_united/index.html
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. The decision doesn't equate bribery with speech.
You say: "Bribery, as one can see from the definition quoted above, involves far more than the expression of an opinion. It involves the attempt to influence government officials to enact laws favorable to the briber – at the expense of most of the nation’s other citizens. If bribery is equated with “speech” simply because it involves an expression of opinion, then every act conceivable to the human mind also involves an expression of opinion. Rape involves an expression of opinion. Murder involves an expression of opinion – the opinion that one doesn’t want the murder victim to live. Should these things be protected by our First Amendment?"

The decision does not strike down laws against bribery; it strikes down certain laws intended to suppress bribery by suppressing certain kinds of political speech. The central issue was a hard one. Does the government's interest in preventing quid pro quo corruption extend to discouraging such corruption by preventing corporations from directly engaging in political speech on behalf of a candidate for political office? The majority said no, which is not unreasonable, and the minority said yes, which is also not unreasonable. I haven't had a chance to carefully analyze the arguments in the various opinions, but at firat glance I see no signs of any simplistic errors of the sort you ascribe to the majority.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. How does it not equate bribery with speech?
Edited on Sat Jan-23-10 08:37 PM by Time for change
In claiming that laws that limit the money that individuals or corporations can contribute to public officials are banned by our First Amendment's protection of speech, it claims that such contributions are "speech".

How is a $10 million contribution to a public official, followed by the supporting of legislation by the public official who received the donation, that benefits the person who gave the donation be speech, rather than a bribe, by any common sense definition of the term?
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. As you know,
the mere fact that a donation by corporation x to candidate y is followed by y's supporting legislation that benefits x does not mean that a bribe has taken place. Furthermore, no one on the Court is saying that the donation itself is speech. The suggestion is that if, for example, some group wants to use their money to create a film called "Hillary" to convince people not to vote for Hillary Clinton, then preventing them from doing so would be a prima facie violation of their right to free speech. Of course, one big issue is whether corporations are like individuals in having a right to free speech, but the point here is that the decision did not equate bribery with speech.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. But the SC banned the limiting of campaign contributions, calling it speech
It did not simply ban the use of money to create films. It banned the limiting of campaign contributions.

When a corporation or individual contributes money to a political candidate they don't get to say how that money is used. It is simply a donation of money. How is that speech?
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. do you think that political campaigning isn't speech?
There's no question that the decision effectively eliminated obstacles to sppech. The issue is wehther those obstacles were constitutional.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. besides, the law that was struck down
dealt explicitly with funds used for "electioneering communication" or "for speech that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a candidate."
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #53
59. Not speech -- Money that enables a political candidate to have access to a microphone that
isn't available to ordinary people who aren't wealthy.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. I think that giving someone money with the expectation that they will pass public legislation
that benefits you is NOT speech. It's bribery. I think that's quite obvious.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. An impeccable argument will not save you if your premises are wrong.
There is also the violation of stare decisis, and, well, Justice Stevens went through all that and I am no lawyer.

Money is not "political speech" and corporations do not have any Constitutional right to political speech. Corporations are creatures of the legislatures, and they can do what legislatures allow them to do.

It is true that the law has been interpreted to say that money is political speech and corporations do have Constitutional rights, but that does not make it so. It is an error to be corrected, not a fact to be accepted.

This activist judgeship at its finest.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. You make a lot of points here.
I am not saying I agree with the majority. My only point is that the issues are complicated and the arguments on both sides are serious ones. Consider, for example, the debate between Stevens and Scalia on whether the scope of the first amendment right to free speech was originally understood to include corporate speech. You might be right to side with Stevens, but do you think that Scalia is just being stupid to disagree with Stevens? Is it painfully obvious to any unbiased observer that Scalia is wrong? I don't think so.

As for stare decisis, it would have gone against precedent to deny corporations first amendment rights.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Eh, so we disagree a bit.
I do see the reasoning, or some of it anyway, but there is a good deal to criticize too. I mean I give you some of that. That's what I meant by saying "impeccable reasoning".

Mr Kennedy appears to be reaching beyond mere law in places.

I don't think Scalia is stupid, I don't think he's really smart either. He's like a guy that is good at math or programming but dumb about people, narrow gauge.

I am persuaded by the fact that Corporations exist by act of the legislature, therefore they are creatures of the legislature, and they may do and not do what the legislature says they may do and not do. The do not have Constitutional rights, they have legislated rights.

But I see you are a smart person.
My pleasure then.
:hi:
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. We probably agree a lot.
I haven't studied the issue enough to really have a well-informed opinion, but I am inclined to agree with you that corporations, being creatures of legislatures, have only those rights that are either granted to them by the legislature or can be derived from the individual rights of their members. (OK I modified your argument a little. Sue me.)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Again, a pleasure.
I can agree that corporations have their place, along the lines you suggest.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
68. So are you saying
that a group like the ACLU has no constitutional right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures? That government law enforcement agencies are free to raid their offices and take whatever they want without a search warrant?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. No. nt
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. You don't seem to have a clue what you're saying
or how it relates to the issues at hand. But that's OK...anyone with any sense reading this will get it.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #74
91. No, I don't have a clue what you're saying.
There is more to this thinking business than slapping a few handy ideas together.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. Nice try
Well, no...actually a pretty shitty try. Duck, dodge and evade seems to be all you can do. Thinking people ask questions and respond to questions posed. You claim that corporations don't have constitutional rights. Are you saying that corporations cannot have the right of freedom of the press? That Congress can restrict in any way they like the rights of corporate newspapers to publish stories critical of the government without violating the Constitution? I'll wait for a substantive answer instead of more snark from you, but won't hold my breath.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Well, you do seem to provide an exemplary answer to the question posed by the OP. nt
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 11:15 AM by bemildred
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Dodge, duck, evade
seems to be all that you're good at. I'll take your inability to address a simple and substantive question as my answer. Is it really that hard to just admit you said something that's dead wrong and move on? For a lot of people here, it is, apparently.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Perhaps you would be happier somewhere else?
I can sense the frustration that you must be laboring under here.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. So how does it feel
to be pinned, absolutely pinned on the point that corporations DO have constitutional rights, to know deep down and without a doubt that you're dead wrong and that everyone with a brain also knows it? Amusement would be a far better description of my mood than frustration....watching you twist and squirm and try to do anything but answer a question you can't or admit that you said something foolish. But keep trying, by all means...I'm sure I'm not the only one who can use the laughs.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. LOL.

:popcorn::popcorn:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Do you have a thinking problem?
Answer the following questions and find out:

1.) Does your thinking begin earlier in the
day than it used to?

2.) Do you find yourself craving a think at
a specific time each day?

3.) Have you ever had a blackout as a result
of thinking?

4.) Do you think alone?

5.) Has your thinking ever caused you to perform
an act which you later discerned to be
certifiably insane or incredibly stupid.

If you answered yes to any of the above questions,
you could be among the millions of people in this
country who have lost the ability to control their
thinking, a disease which, if left untreated, can
result in jails, institutions, or frontal lobotomy.
And just because you don't think every day doesn't
mean you don't have a problem. Many problem thinkers
go for days or weeks without thinking, only to
eventually find themselves on the inevitable three
or four day thinking binge.

THINKENDERS can help you stop thinking. Call for
our free brochure, "No thought for today" and find
out how.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
67. Where in the Constitution do you find that, please?
The First Amendment (assuming that you have read it) says nothing about who has a right to political speech. It doesn't limit the right to political speech to individuals, any more than the Fourth Amendment limits the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures to individuals. The First Amendment says only that Congress cannot make laws restricting the freedom of speech, and that's the basis on which this case was decided.

And it seems your definition of judicial activism is the same as it is for conservatives: Decisions that I don't like, regardless of whether they conform to the law.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Run along, Sonny, I'm busy right now. nt
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. In other words
"Oh, crap...my whole argument has been demolished. I can't bring myself to admit it, so I'd better try snark, instead of facts and logic."
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
92. Now now, don't be so hard on yourself. nt
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. K, R, printed, will pass around. nt
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Kick for later reading (with bicarbonate and Valium)! nt
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
39. An impassioned, well intentioned - but I think mark-missing - post
I think that in practical terms, what corporations do with their money essentially amounts to buying off politicians and elections.

But from a legal standpoint - and I'm not legal scholar and I'm just discussion as a reader - I think that this line of reasoning has some unintended consequences and may not stand up to legal scrutiny.

I think there are better ways to argue against the veracity of the SC decision, and I think there are other ways that we can pursue some alternatives to fix the problems created by the SC decision that do not threaten the first amendment.

I've written some of those ideas on DU today and I'm sure I probably will write more about them in the future.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Missing the mark?
In what way?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Did I not just explain that?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. No
You say there aer better ways to to argue against the veracity of the SC decision, but you say nothing about what they are or why they are better.

You say "I think this line of reasoning has some unintended consequences and may not stand up to legal scrutiny", but you say nothing about why you think that.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Posted to wrong place
Edited on Sat Jan-23-10 10:06 PM by Time for change
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DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
54. How Ironic That
The Supreme Court sees no equal protection issue with campaign "contributions" where most people contribute zero dollars while others "contribute" tens of thousands of dollars to several candidates. The way to solve the equal protection issue is with public financing of federal elections. Also, what ever happened to earlier Supreme Court decisions that defined money properly as property. How can property be speech. Can a table talk? Well, money can't talk either in the traditional meaning of the word. Again, the way to address this gross imbalance is with public financing of federal elections.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
85. "Equal protection" in the eyes of the likes of Scalia and co.
means protection of the wealthy, and to hell with everyone else. Scalia and his cohorts should be tried for treason.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
56. We need to stop allowing corruption the cover of "stupidity".
Let that be the one good lesson George W. Bush could teach us.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Yes -- Scalia and company are not stupid -- they are corrupt
Millions of ordinary citizens who believe their contention that unlimited campaign contributions are protected by our First Amendment as "speech" are ignorant or stupid or both.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. So you're arguing that
a law that said people could make whatever political statements they wanted in whatever forum they wanted, but couldn't spend any money doing so, would be constitutional?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. Any money?
The McCain-Feingold legislation did not say that people could not spend ANY money on campaign contributions. It merely put a limit on the amount of money that could be spent, in order to put a curb on the legalized bribery and everyone with any common sense knows is rampant in our country.

Furthermore, a campaign contribution is not a political "statement". When given in very large amounts by corporations it is a bribe.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #78
87. That's not an answer
The question was whether you think legislation that barred the spending of any money to express political views would be constitutional.

The point being that if you don't think so, then your argument that money and speech are completely separate when it comes to First Amendment rights is ridiculous and unsupportable.

So what's your answer...yes or no?
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
57. The court did this now because they've tested the water and realized
they could get away with it. All the anger and threats of protest mean nothing to them because it's been proven over the last 30 years that the American people will not fight for human rights or freedom anymore but they will fight for lower taxes and less government. In spite of their best interests.

They don't need to hide so much anymore or make pretenses.

They've denigrated the word "fascism" into meaningless nonsense for the bulk of Americans (by way of broadcasting ridiculous notions such as "Islamo-fascism" and calling Obama a fascist and nazi). For many Americans, government is perceived as bad and private enterprise the quintessential symbol of all that is good in this world. Not everyone, of course, believes all this. But enough do.

As much as we protest or scream out our commonsense arguments, all they need to do is hold out until elections this year and elections in 2012. "Sticks-and-stones..." is all they need to keep saying to themselves. And if our protests should rise up to the level of sticks and stones, they have the trump card already in their control - brute force squashing of dissent by the police, the military and private contract security forces. All bought and paid for by our own taxes.

The very wealthy are playing for checkmate. As they near the end-game, they do not need to hide their intentions. They just need to keep their own pawns in line.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
60. Is there any doubt that the gangsters are in charge now? nt
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
63. If a decision benefits the Republican Party,
the high court will use all kinds of contorted reasoning for its decision.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
64. How stupid do you have to be
to argue that political advertising and advocacy are the same thing as bribery?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. We're talking about contributions of millions of dollars to public officials
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Yes we are
and your point would be...? You don't like the outcomes that a legally justified decision will lead to, so let's just impeach everyone involved? :eyes:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. My point is that interpreting the constitution to protect bribery is either corrupt or stupid
And yes, I don't like the outcomes that legalized bribery leads to. Do you?
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. No, I don't like the results
of so much money polluting our political process. But what you or I or anyone else likes is really irrelevant to the constitutional question, isn't it? Do you like it when people who are guilty of crimes go free because the evidence that was used against them was valid, but obtained in violation of the Fourth Amendment? Is interpreting the constitution to allow criminals to escape punishment corrupt or stupid? Should the justices who decided Mapp v Ohio have been impeached?

Stop bloviating and let a little reason filter in.
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Boudica the Lyoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
82. Not stupid
Think of it this way;
Mr. Citizen wants to run for office but he has no money to do so. Along comes the very rich US Widget Company. US Widget Company agrees to totally finance Mr. Citizens campaign...millions of dollars. Mr. Citizen wins the election.

Once in office he finds himself disagreeing with the US Widget Co but cannot vote against their interests because they have told him they will not finance his next campaign. Mr. Citizen is totally addicted to power and cheerfully does the bidding of the US Widget Co. But he's not the only one, the great and mighty US Widget Co has many other congressman and Senators bought and paid for.

It would be next to impossible for these 'bought and paid for' elected officials to go to the people for contributions because what they want to do in congress is against the best interests of the voters. With US Widget Co behind them they have the money to buy lots of air time that is totally dishonest about their intentions. Oh, and maybe the candidates running against them are also bought and paid for by US Widget Co. A Win win for the boys from Widget.

Now...what if the US Widget Co was really owned by a foreign corporation that hated the US of A?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
71. Democratic Underground LLC Is Now A Bribery Company. Wow. /nt
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punkin87 Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
79.  K & R. Great.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
81. K&R. nt
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
83. Hmmm... maybe we should prevent politicians from knowing who gives them money.
If you want to donate to Candidate X, you send your donation to the FEC and they forward it anonymously to the candidate's campaign coffers.


If the congresscritters don't know who's sending them money, it becomes much harder to be bought for a specific purpose.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. That's an excellent idea
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. You really think so? n/t
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
84. Impeach the traitors......
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
90. Money = Success = Worthier American
And if I'm clearly a worthier American because *I* created a company, and *I* gave you working stiffs your jobs, and *I* bought out or steamrolled my competition, and *I* pay more in taxes (boo hoo!), then hell yes MY opinion should count for more!!! Some pigs are more equal than others, damnit!

:sarcasm: obviously
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
93. you don't have to be stupid, just republican
oh wait.........
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
96. K&R. Very well said. //nt
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