The religious criticism of "Avatar" pisses me off.

[howard112211]

I realize that many people disliked things about this movie.

I know that some people dislike it because they think it somehow makes people view the US military in an unrealistically negative way.
I don't agree with this, but I do understand that this is a point that can be consitently argued.

I also read the criticisms of "racial undertones" in the movie. Again, I'm not entirely convinced by these, but recognize that a consistent
theory can been formulated on why this movie has underlying racist motives.

However, these religious people that are complaining that Avatar is a "bad movie" because it advocates "pantheism" ("the worship of nature")
are just nuts. Somehow it has become an accepted idea, even among non-religious people apparantly, that monotheism in general, and christianity
in particular is somehow an "advanced" and more sophisticated form of superstition than the "whorship of everything", which is seen as primitive.

I think this is utterly crazy, and that they would bring this point up on the occasion of this film once again displays that, at least intellectually, they are on the same level as the Taliban.

I am no pantheist. I don't think that "everything is sacred" or "nature is sacred". I think humans should work to understand nature, preserve it and also control it.

However, I find the pantheist worldview infinitely less implausible than the monotheistic worldview of christianity, simply because it makes infinitely less uncertified claims.

I don't see how anyone who believes that a 2000 year old book somehow represents evidence that the son of a "threefold" god walked earth, can claim that pantheism is primitive.

[lazarus]

1. Wheeee

This is going to be fun.

:popcorn:

(btw, I agree with you.)

[Bitwit1234]

2. Next religious organizations like dobson's are

going to go to the crooked butt republican supreme court. They are going to get them to make it legal for churches to support and campaign for candidates. If they do they should drop the tax exempt status immediately.

[paulsby]

3. my problem with avatar is that it reinforces the "noble savage"

myht. npr actually does a pretty good take on this here...

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2009/12/avatar_movie_post.html

i also note they use the term "true myth", which is shades of cs lewis.

[anonymous171]

4. I thought the Pope criticized it for being animist, not pantheist.

I do think that it is funny how many leftist atheists get sucked into nature worship/new age crackpottery though (like Avatar.)

[haele]

17. Err, Atheists don't get sucked into new age crackpottery.

I'm a family trad pagan from an animist tradition (and considering some of the Catholic Church traditions, I'm highly amused with criticism of animist worship...), and I know a few atheists myself (being married to one). Any self-identifying "atheist" who buys into nature worship and new age crackpottery is no atheist, they're some form of Spiritualist, Deist, Animist Buddhist, or Theosophist. They're looking for a spirituality that they can't find in organized religion or fundamentalism.

However, as an engineering/analyst type, I found it interesting that in the movie, the planet was explained to be a bio-neural based network, with native flora and fauna able to link into it. That is more of a harder science fiction patina to the fantasy ala Gibson or Vinge, rather the Pochantis or Ferngully type "nature worship" or New age ideology. Could it be possible for the planet to develop this sort of symbiotic relationship with it's native specie?

I did find it odd that the Na'vi, the most "developed" species other than perhaps trees, did not have six limbs like all the other fauna on the planet, though. And being an animist-type pagan as well, I really liked the 3D and atmosphere.
Actually, I really don't expect my Science Fiction/Fantasy to have much of a plot and script, it's the "experiance" I look for in that type of movie. This plot line is no differnt than most; "a damaged lone warrior - looking for redemption - comes to a village/tribe/planet that is being threatened by corrupt invaders, becomes part of the tribe, and saves it".
Been there, seen that in all sorts of myths and stories, well made and poorly made. What would you expect from a common theme?


Haele

[Touchdown]

46. I like it cuz Jake picks the loincloth out of his butt.

:D

[izquierdista]

23. Like us sun worshipers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Stuckinthebush]

47. Not so sure about atheists being "sucked into" new age beliefs

Atheists are the last to be sucked into anything that is not evidence based.

I don't know where your statement came from, but from my experience it is totally false.

[Codeine]

5. Am I allowed to hate it

because it was a shit film?

[cali]

11. it was a lousy boring movie with terrible dialogue

It was mawkish. It celebrated violence while pretending to condemn it. And it just had to have a heroic white guy for the natives to bow down to.

It sucked on so many levels.

[abelenkpe]

21. Amazing Special Effects Horrible Adolescent Crap Writing nt.

[cali]

26. yeah, but if you're not much into special effects

it lost its appeal within half an hour.

[DavidDvorkin]

40. I didn't even like the effects

I saw it in 2D, which might be the problem. To me, it always looked like a cartoon. It never became real, even though I wanted it to.

[DavidDvorkin]

16. Yep. That's why I hated it.

[proteus_lives]

30. My response too.

It was shiny wrapping paper covering an empty box.

[truedelphi]

6. Take the right drugs, and you will never again be able to state that

Everything is not sacred.

Hundreds of ancient cultures, and dozens of still existing ones, like the Huitol in Mexico, make those claims because of those experiences.

Even the Catholic Church gives full permission to the Huitol Indians to pursue their need for magic mushrooms and peyote - allowing them time off from Sunday service attendance, and local employers allow time off work during the season.

[Terra Alta]

7. I am a Christ-follower(note: not "Christian") who also believes

nature is very sacred and should be respected.

I'm not surprised religious nuts are complaining about the movie; they always find something to complain about. If they don't want to watch the movie, then don't watch it; but don't try to tell me what to watch and not to watch.

I haven't seen Avatar yet but after reading some descriptions here I'm sort of leaning towards it.

[puebloknot]

8. And the "2000 year old book" has been cut-and-pasted and modernized ...

... so many times, for political reasons, that is is not a "2000 year old book" at all, but a modern summation of ancient writings -- with a lot left on the cutting room floor.

Metaphor! Yeah, that's it!

[krabigirl]

9. My parents are super-religious Catholics and loved the movie.

edit: And I've been a pantheist for as long as I can remember. I guess I am primitive? Awesome.

[monmouth]

10. It's a friggin movie! Just enjoy...n/t

[gratuitous]

13. Gotta go with this . . .

Enjoy it or don't; it's a movie. I remember when Dick Tracy came out, and some people were upset because of the movies depiction of (no shit) people with speech impediments! The Dustin Hoffman character, Mumbles, was somehow supposed to make stutterers and low talkers look bad or something. It's a movie about a comic strip fer crissakes. Avatar's no different.

[monmouth]

19. Analyze this!!!...HA!... Waaay too much introspect on this one...n/t

[frebrd]

12. "worship of everything", which is seen as primitive.....

I see the worship of anything as primitive.

[anonymous171]

14. What about profit and progress? nt

[timtom]

20. But....

Did you enjoy the movie?

[cascadiance]

27. I guess it depends on how you define "worship"...

I would argue that the balance of nature is something that no human fully understands, and for some to say that one shouldn't have reverence for it and how it works in ways we don't understand defines *arrogance*, which is why we're in such shit right now with climate change (because too many people thought they understood it enough to change things radically without consequences). To acknowledge that one doesn't fully understand the balance of nature isn't "primitive", just not "arrogant".

Some would say that this movie is more about the *reverence* of the natural ecological balance of that planet, which for some means worshipping that it works for them.

For others some might say that worship means idolatry and putting something on a pedestal as a means to justify everything they claim is done in "honor" of that idol (which is the way so many people evoke religion today to "suit their agenda"). They conveniently ignore some parts of the bible and worship others that they CHOOSE to worship. They can conveniently forget that Jesus overturned money changers' tables in the temple, and then turn around and "worship" someone like Pat Robertson and all of his "holy" messages.

I think Avatar is more about reverence for the balance of nature, not unholy "worship" of it.

[Mz Pip]

15. No one is forcing anyone to see it.

Anyone who feels their religious sensibilities might be offended by this movie can stay home.

I'm going to see it tomorrow in IMAX. I hope the special effects are spectacular. I don't care that much about the story which sounds pretty unoriginal but I can be entertained if the visuals are good.

[Blue_In_AK]

48. The special effects are awesome.

There are times when it seems like things on the screen are going to land in your lap.

[Mz Pip]

51. I just saw it.

I haven't seen a 3-D movie since 13 Ghosts back un the 60s.

The visuals were incredible. The story wasn't particularly complex but I think a complex story would just get in the way.

It was interesting that before the movie there were about 15 minutes of previews of uncoming 3-D movies. None of them anywhere near as compelling as Avatar.

I rarely go to the movies. I think the last movie I saw in the theater was Return of the King. It's been that long. This was worth it.

[Auggie]

18. By criticizing the film they're affirming their own beliefs.

Very human to do that, IMO. But keep it to yourself. It pisses me off too.

[undeterred]

22. "whorship of everything" sounds like Congress

[pink-o]

39. Beat me to it!

OP misspelt "worship" in the best possible way! Maybe it was deliberate: Whore-ship of everything is what America is built on, Dude!

[surrealAmerican]

24. What's most disturbing about that sort of criticism ...

... is the underlying assumption that EVERY movie need to be propaganda for their beliefs. Let them make their own movies that make their religion look better. The rest of us should have other choices.

[Xithras]

25. I didn't see it as pantheistic at all.

The idea was that the plants and animals on the planet had evolved together to form a planetwide neural network. It wasn't a "god", it was a living being. It's also a system that is 100% scientifically plausible. We've never seen anything like it on our own planet, but there is no scientific reason why neural impulses couldn't be shared between multiple creatures that evolved together, assuming a physical connection.

[omega minimo]

32. You mean YOU"VE never seen anything like it on our own planet.

How does it feel when you connect with nature in the outdoors? A blank? You see no connections b/w "multiple creatures that evolved together" including yourself?

[Xithras]

38. We're talking about totally different things.

I'm an avid hiker and love the outdoors, but that's different than the direct neural communication that the various species on Pandora demonstrated. The various animals could connect both to each other, and directly to the planetary neural network.

We're not talking about an ephemeral "feel at one with nature" thing, but a scientifically measurable neural link. The neural network on Pandora was portrayed as a living creature capable of dying, and not a "god" or "gods". Very different thing.

[omega minimo]

41. They're different by degrees, clearly based on what we have

To say "we've never seen anything like it on this planet" seems odd.

"The various animals could connect both to each other, and directly to the planetary neural network." Happens every day.

"The neural network on Pandora was portrayed as a living creature capable of dying" like Gaia or a living Earth.

"We're not talking about an ephemeral "feel at one with nature" thing, but a scientifically measurable neural link."

You may need to shift the way you look at things, to be able to see them.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

29. Your position is utterly rational...

something most Theists are incapable of emulating.

A belated welcome to DU.

:toast:

Feel free to PM me. You seem to have a grasp for reason.

[omega minimo]

31. I don't believe you

[PacerLJ35]

33. It's a damn movie with great special effects...people need to calm down - nt

[Fly by night]

34. Avatar accurately describes my spiritual beliefs, and it's about time.

I belong to a 12-Step fellowship that strongly suggests that members find a Higher Power that they can believe in and rely on. As a lifelong logical positivist, I have always had problems believing in something (like monotheism) that is based squarely (and solely) on "faith". I needed something that was real, that I could see and touch, and that required no faith whatsoever. That is why I chose Mother Nature, the life force, the Great Mystery.

Now it would be nice to have a ponytail with tentacles that would allow me to plug in directly to that life force and to commune with it. But recognizing and respecting life does not require a ponytail -- it just requires the ability to realize that we are all part of something bigger than ourselves, something that we are not the center of.

I loved Avatar, have seen it twice already, ask everyone I know whether they've seen it yet, and encourage those who haven't to do so. I just haven't put on a white shirt and a Goodwill tie to go door-to-door to sign folks up. Everyone is a part of my Higher Power because they have the life force within them, around them and without them. I don't need to proselytize -- I just need to live and let live.

Although it is harder and harder to see the life force in a large number of Rethugligans -- they seem to be running on something that lacks all reverence, that is more radioactive than radiant.

[Life of the world]

55. Can you help?

I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, and I wanted to chat with you about your beliefs, I am a young adult trying to find my place in the world and I hear alot about religions. The first brought to me was christianity, and I just couldn't make that out, how could someone believe in something so huge and selfish that created "everything"? But then I saw Avatar, I enjoyed it 110% and agreed with their system of life! It makes sense to follow something you can see and feel than something that you think you feel but is just your body.... I too wouldn't mind if we lived in an avatar type of world but we are already chosen on how we are supposed to live life, and I'm completely satisfied. But if you could, please send me a letter back, the name is Mike :)

[Jennicut]

35. I am a Christian and loved Avatar. The scenes of nature were the best thing about the movie.

The villains were a bit one note, and the love story okay but the scenes of the Na'vi in their world were incredible and beautiful. I doubt Jesus would look highly on those that treat the Earth like crap. The two can coexist.

[CBGLuthier]

36. I dislike it because it is boring tripe.

And I dread the fucking thought that every single political argument will now have to involve this stupid-ass indians-in-space piece of shit over-hyped movie.

[cali]

44. It's so boring I walked out on it.

I was with two friends. two of us just couldn't take it and walked out just after the hero flies in to save the day on his big orange dragon and all the Na'vi bow down to him in awe and amazement.

puke me out the door.

but beyond that I don't care for war movies and that's what this was.

[Soylent Brice]

37. i just saw this movie yesterday. here is my synopsis:

it doesn't make the just US military look bad. these people were mercenaries. it makes european settlers, the us military, and these mercs for hire companies look bad.

i believe it was an attack on corporations, and blackwater/xe.

in regards to your observations regaring the religious implications, i think you missed the mark as well.

if you paid attention the movie you would see that they learned that the planet, all plants-animals-etc, are linked, literally. networked. basically a biological network allowing brain uploading. a bilogical version of the Singularity, if you will.

i would think anyone who may be alive when we achieve the singularity will claim a "religious experience" when that amount of information is available to every human mind. considering how "primitive" the indigenous were in the movie i could understand why they would claim Eywa as their deity. think of it as Gaia.

as an atheist, any religious aspect is hokey to me. religion is basically a way of explaining things that are unexplainable or not fully understood.

i understand the point you're trying to make. i'm just sad to see that with all the different things that could be discussed about that movie, i have yet to see it anywhere. the remote possibility of biological networking from person to person, person to animal, person to plant, and the blatant parallel between the company and it's mercs, and blacwater/xe - halliburton-esque seems to be muted by other nonsense.

[omega minimo]

43. It's not remote

"...the remote possibility of biological networking from person to person, person to animal, person to plant,"

[Soylent Brice]

49. lol. replace the word "remote" with "potential" and my point would have been much more clear.

whatcha up to?

:hi:

[omega minimo]

50. SOYLENT CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE!!!!

I feel much better now that it's official. :hi:

As for the other matter, these connections already exist, not in the extreme way the film portrays them. Right? I'm baffled that it's not seen as part of this world, now.

Was Cameron exaggerating to make it more obvious?

[closeupready]

42. Utterly agree with you.

1000%.

[Fumesucker]

45. What is depicted in Avatar isn't even a religion..

The natives *know* they are connected, they join nerve signals with other life forms, that puts it beyond the category of religion.

[earth mom]

52. The fundie nutcases criticize anything that doesn't fit in their narrow & ignorant little world.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but as an agnostic who loves nature, I'll probably love it.

[JDPriestly]

53. Many of the rules in the Old Testament are intended to

protect the environment and our food sources.

Can you imagine Jesus' sermon on the Mount as Jesus' sermon on a mountaintop removal coal mine site?

How about Jesus walks on the polluted water of the Hudson River?

Or Jesus breaks bread made of genetically modified wheat?

Or instead of Jesus healing a leper, we have Jesus healing the victim of a nuclear accident?

How about instead of "the breath of life" we have "the breath of death" due to pollution?

Or how about Noah's arc in a world in which all animals except humans, pets and other domestic animals are extinct?

Protecting nature and being one with it are as much a part of the Judeo-Christian religion as they are of life itself.

[JDPriestly]

54. Whether or not your liked Avatar, you have to read

the interview with one of the guys who will profit the most from its popularity.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_05/b4165010350026_page_2.htm

Charlie Rose and Prince Alwaleed of Saudi Arabia -- second largest investor in Fox News Corp. Be sure to tell everybody you know on the religious right who watches Fax News that they are watching News paid for by non-Christians.

I have nothing against any religion, but I think it is really hilarious that all these Fox Newscasts are so pseudoChristian when in fact, I believe that neither Murdoch nor Alwaleed are Christian. I could be wrong about Murdoch.

I repeat, nothing wrong with not being Christian, but isn't it strange that nonChristians hype Christianity so much on the news media they own?

Fox News is obviously just trying to make a buck off the Christian right and swing them to policies that favor certain interests in the world.

I correct. Murdoch claims to be a Christian, but is a bit vague about it. Alwaleed is definitely Muslim.