1st high-speed railway in west China finishes trial operation

[FarCenter]

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90884/6882228.html

The first high-speed passenger railway in western China, which links Xi'an with Zhengzhou, finished trial operation Thursday, the designer said.

The trial train finished the 505-km journey in 1 hour and 48 minutes at a speed of up to 352 km/h, said Bai Cuncang, the railway's chief engineer.

The line will help shorten the travel time between the two major cities to less than two hours from current six hours, according to the China Railway First Survey and Design Institute.
<SNIP>

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Note that this is an actual high-speed train operating at up to 218 mph, with average speed for the trip of 174 mph.

It is not some fake high-speed train operating at 90 or 110 mph.

It is also built.

[HeresyLives]

1. You'll like this video then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8406910.stm

[FarCenter]

2. Good video

They've got trains. We've got funding for studies of two lines, and a bunch of expenditures on half-way measures to get to 90 or 110 mph on others.

[HeresyLives]

3. I know, but until yesterday

you didn't even have that.

I understand that studies have been done, in fact that there are numerous studies going back for years. Surely they just need a dust-off?

[Brickbat]

4. They also have very different labor laws, construction standards, and environmental regulations.

[HeresyLives]

5. No actually they don't.

These trains in China are the best in the world

But if you don't like theirs...you could always go for the Japanese and European ones.

[Brickbat]

8. Wait, what?

They DON'T have very different labor laws, construction standards, and environmental regulations?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

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[FarCenter]

6. Yes, the California route will never be built; there'll be some damn toad living in the desert...

[ddeclue]

7. 90 to 110mph is a lot faster than you can drive - about the same speed as the average Cessna 172

[HeresyLives]

9. If yer gonna build them, build them faster.

Why settle for half measures?

[ddeclue]

15. It's a cost/return thing...

yes let's build some true high speed rail but if we can take a train from 58 to 115 mph for 1/20th of the cost of true high speed rail, why not do it? It's like when the Navy brought back Iowa class battleships again and again - they weren't the higest tech thing out there but they certainly did the job and certainly were a hell of a lot cheaper than a brand new ship.

There's plenty of places where this would be a very worthwhile thing to do like up in the Northeast corridor - that way we can save the true HSR money for bigger more open routes like L.A. to Vegas or Tamps to Orlando or Orlando to Miami, etc.

[HeresyLives]

17. Build cheap, get cheap.

Make-do won't do...anymore.

[ddeclue]

23. NOT true. I'm an engineer and I know...

you can overbuild something and spend so much money on it that it will never be profitable.

It is better to find the "sweet spot" in cost/return than be extravagant and have something that will never catch on.

Build NEW systems in places that need it like Florida - renovate OLD systems in places that already have it like PA/NY/NJ/CT/MA.

[HeresyLives]

29. From what year?

[ddeclue]

58. To what are you referring? Your sentence fragment is useless.

I graduated in 1989 if you are referring to how long I've been an engineer. Are you referring to old and new in terms of train routes? It's hard to tell.

[FarCenter]

28. They really need to upgrade the Northeast Corridor tracks between New York and Boston

The Acela doesn't run a lot faster than the Regional over that section.

And the Northeast Corridor is the only part of Amtrak that is making money.

New high-speed tracks to Richmond, Raleigh, Winston-Salem, Charlotte, Greensville and Atlanta would probably be a good economic extension, even though there is a low density of population between St Petersburg and Raleigh.

Instead of building off the one successful piece of the existing system, we get these disjoint sections of high-speed rail and a lot of pork-barrel repair projects that are unlikely to turn other sections into economic successes.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ddeclue]

59. Orlando, Daytona, Jacksonville, Savannah, Charleston and Wilmington would all be good stops.

[FarCenter]

63. I don't think there is enough traffic on the Atlantic coast to make it economic

Look at the current Amtrak Nationa Route Map PDF available at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1237405732511/1237405732511

Below Richmond the routes split at Selma, NC and again at Cary, NC. The route that I proposed is to go west from both Selma and Cary an pick up the NC piedmont metro areas, which are quite populous. From Charlotte, there is a fairly high density population corridor down to Atlanta.

South of Selma, there are not really any big metro areas until you get to Charlston, Savannah, and Jacksonville. Plus, I think that the construction costs would be higher due to the bridges.

There is just no good route to connect with Florida, since population and potential traffic along the coast is low compared to the Piedmont.

[FarCenter]

11. Not when you consider door-to-door times, plus you have your car at the destination

[ddeclue]

14. not sure what your point is here whether you are pro train or pro Cessna..

most places in the Eastern U.S. are only 5 to 10 miles from a general aviation airport. Train stations are fewer and farther between.

Most general aviation airports either have car rentals available or free crew cars available for pilots to use at their destination airport. (usually a free "crew car" is a piece of junk but beggars can't be choosers.)

Time spent pre-flighting and post-flight tie down on the plane is, I am sure comparable or better than time waiting on, boarding and deboarding the train.

On the other hand, most GA aircraft are not true all weather creatures and your trip is by no means guaranteed if the weather is bad. In that area the train has the plane beat.

Also in the train's "pro" column is COST. Even if you own your own plane (I do not) they cost 50 to 100 dollars an hour to operate, rentals are easily 100 an hour and have minimum rental time restrictions. Taking one of these HSR trains should be orders of magnitude cheaper, even cheaper than driving (although I've found existing Amtrak to be expensive for some reason comparable to airline ticket prices. Even airline tickets are usually cheaper than flying yourself though.)

[JVS]

26. We could drive that fast on our better Interstate Highways if permitted

[Atman]

12. I'd sooner risk my life on a carnival ride than a Chinese-made bullet train.

When the pewter wheel melt and the whole thing disintegrates at 110 mph, I don't want to be on it.

.

[HeresyLives]

13. Gee, Rome said much the same kind of thing.

[FarCenter]

16. Actually, the Chinese ones run at 200+ mph

Its the American trains that leave the rails at 110 mph because of poorly constructed roadbeds and rails.

[HeresyLives]

19. Yup, they currently hold the record,

having snatched it away from the French.

Mon dieu, they will be back! :rofl:

[ddeclue]

21. They weren't "poorly constructed" they were just maintained for lower speed freight.

We stopped running passenger trains in the 1950's for all intents and purposes as automobiles and airplanes took their place. Prior to that, American passenger trains travelled at faster speeds but once people stopped taking the train, these rails didn't need to be maintained to high speed standards any more for freight.

[FarCenter]

24. Actually, they are poorly constructed

Most tracks still have wooden ties, which cannot be used with high-speed trains.

There is a huge difference in smoothness on NJ Transit trains when they come off wooden tie tracks onto the concrete sleeper tracks that are used by Acela on the Northeast Corridor.

But yes, once you get south of DC on Norfolk Southern track, all they care about is freight trains on wooden tie tracks for which the optimal speed is about 45 mph.

[ddeclue]

27. NO they are NOT "poorly constructed" they were constructed to suit their design purpose

you need to understand that engineering is done to SPECIFICATIONS. If the engineers that design something decide that wooden ties are sufficient to their purpose they aren't going to waste money on concrete ties. Freight trains don't need to travel at 200 mph - in fact the faster they travel the more fuel they burn. It's a waste of money to maintain the tracks for anything faster unless you actually plan to run fast passenger service.

[FarCenter]

32. They are poorly constructed

Even for freight. I spent hours on a passenger train in North Carolina because Norfolk Southern had reduced the speed limit to 20 mph after a few hours of heavy rain.

Should have flown. The RDU airport was operating normally. You'd think that trains would tolerate bad weather better than airplanes.

[ddeclue]

60. No they are NOT poorly constructed.. If anything they've been poorly maintained.

in some places and even that isn't generally true.

[Forkboy]

18. But them Chinese lands have bends and elevation and stuff!

[HeresyLives]

20. Ah knows...it's the craziest thing!

:hi:

[FarCenter]

22. Rivers too -- this route has an almost 80 km bridge

[laughingliberal]

25. An inconvenient fact for the anti's. nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. And the continental US and China are virtually identical in size.

[HeresyLives]

30. Trains, folks, get back to hi-speed trains.

I haven't the slightest interest in waving anybody's flag

[proteus_lives]

31. I wonder how poisonous those trains will be.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4249595

[HeresyLives]

33. Since they are world-class, not at all

Why you are talking about kids stuff, I don't know.

[proteus_lives]

34. Avoiding?

You must have been top-notch at dodgeball.

[Mixopterus]

37. You see, Proteus.

Developing an untested high speed rail immediately washes clean the gross inefficiencies and idiocy the Chinese have exhibited so far in their manufacturing rush.

It also washes clean the gross moral excesses they likely engaged in to build the thing and similar excesses such as the Three Gorges.

It makes perfect metaphysical sense, you see. Building trains is like pouring the tears of Jesus on your sins: It just washes it all away. How else do you think Mussolini lasted as long as he did?

[HeresyLives]

39. Nothing to avoid, sorry.

Just busy answering other posters.

Now then, the rest of th world has high-speed rail...the US doesn't

Simple as that

The other countries are running a friendly competition for top speed

The US isn't in the running as yet, so I guess you don't understand that.

[Mixopterus]

41. We need high speed rail

Our reliance on automobile and airplane transportation has been a gross oversight.

I'm mostly disturbed by your avid love of all things Chinese, particularly in areas that are misplaced. Your method of argumentation is also rough, at best, and rather dishonest.

[HeresyLives]

42. Yes you do.

All of North America does.

I've said nothing pro-Chinese. I've simply pointed out that Americans aren't the only people who exist or count in the world.

Hey, if I was totally honest, I'd get tossed off here. :)

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

50. Wow!

I didn't even think of that!

It all makes sense now!

:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

64. 10% more poisonous than American made trains...

7-10% more poisonous than American made trains...

ed: sp

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mixopterus]

35. To the sinophile (HeresyLives)

Apologizing for a brutal, authoritarian regime is bad enough, but why apologize one for the track record of utter failure that China possesses?

Never seen a civilization drop the ball so many times and implode. Seriously, check it out. They love cutting their own throats.

They also have a piss-poor intellectual history, having never developed any sophisticated philosophies. Debate me on this, I dare you.

[HeresyLives]

36. There are 200 countries in the world.

China is but one of them.

So is America I'm afraid. It's just younger. Much younger.

I can debate you on any of them.

However, if you truly believe that about China...you've already lost.

[Mixopterus]

38. Did I say country?

No, civilization. Did I say that America was supreme? No, I didn't say that either.

Seriously, let's argue about history and philosophy, especially the latter. I would love to chart the intellectual growth of China versus the Greeks, as its not like that is my area of focus or anything.

Here, I'll make a concession: Arnold J. Toynbee, my favorite historian, was worried about the technologies and therefore intellectual roots of the West being assimilated by East Asia and India, providing them with a technological edge by which they can better defend themselves. Can you guess what the possible cost of this is?

He, of course, overestimated the capabilities of the East versus the West, I think, but his overall conclusion was sound.

[parkia00]

61. There is no need for debate.

From your own posts you obviously have little idea what you are sputtering about. Just clutching at straws trying to make your argument and going away 180 degrees from the point of the original post. When someone does try to debate you call them names, point fingers and "dare" them to reply. Debating against a log will reveal predictable results.


"Never seen a civilization drop the ball so many times and implode" Has China imploded? The Persians have. The Romans have. The Babylons have. The Assyrians have. The Inca have and a whole bunch have. China is still China. You are comparing a civilization that has over 4000 years history and smugly pointing out how many times they have been through rough times. Let me ask you... a driver that has been driving for 50 years would have more accidents and close calls than one that has been driving for 5 years. Right? How can you compare the two drivers and proclaim that the older driver is lousier than the younger driver?

"They also have a piss-poor intellectual history, having never developed any sophisticated philosophies." As for this cute little quote... there really is no need to debate. Anyone that says such a moronic statement will have all incoming replies from the "debate" fly way over their head.

I bet you are one of those people that wished the Bird's Nest Stadium would collapse during the opening ceremony of the Olympic games to confirm what you believe.

[Mixopterus]

68. Well

Yeah, China has imploded, actually. Several times, to be precise. That they still resemble their former selves says more about their stagnation and inability to change rather than some sort of strength.

The closest equivalent would be the Roman Empire staying (roughly) intact after the collapse, hobbling along in a similar form up until the modern day. If you are familiar with western history you can probably guess that this would be a "bad" thing, especially if they took a Byzantine approach.

Also, the analysis isn't even fair. China is not a crossroads of multiple civilizations like Europe and the Middle East have been, so they simply do not encounter the same stressors or forces of invigoration that the European and Middle Eastern civilizations have encountered. In fact, their encounters with other civilizations usually end up very badly for the Chinese in a strategic sense, and in an intellectual sense they have had a tendency to become incredibly insular when faced with the myriad of challenges contact with other civilizations invariably brings.

[parkia00]

69. Correction Needed Again...

The closest equivalent is not the Roman Empire. That empire no longer exist! China I think is still around. China has come close to imploding numerous times. Sometimes with the help of foreign invaders sometimes helping herself. China has been occupied fully twice by foreign powers and partially a number of times from the Japanese to European powers in the 19th century. The closest I think would be the Russians. Been around a long time. Still the Russians. Came close to imploding numerous times but still around.

"That they still resemble their former selves" yeah.... cause they are the same people? You know, the Russian tend to be Russians and act like the Russian like American tend to act like Americans? I would say China today is vastly different from China 70 years ago, don't you think?

"China is not a crossroads of multiple civilizations" Again you reveal how little you know about China's History. Geographically that is partly correct as China is located at the far east of a giant continent. But that's not their fault is it? But China was not isolated. During many times in history it was open to outsiders like during the Han and Tang dynasties where trade flourished between central Asia and even the European powerhouses of the time. There were cultural exchanges, religious tolerance and even one Ming emperor converted to Islam.

"tendency to become incredibly insular" that is partially true but depended on the Imperial court. Through out history, the imperial court was an area of power play between the major religious forces of China namely Taoism and Confuscism. For example the voyagers of Cheng Ho to Asia and Africa. Was that Insular? China had at that time the most powerful military and navy in the world. It could do whatever it wanted. But invasion was not the main aim of the voyagers. It was to project China's influence. However when the Emperor Hongzi came to power, he was a staunch follower of Confuscism and one of the principles of Confuscism was self reliance. China suddenly overnight became and introvert and the voyagers stopped. The trouble with your comments are that they are black and white when in reality everything is a shade of gray.

[NuttyFluffers]

70. a culture is not an empire is not a tradition. but both of you are rather amusing.

China is remarkably refined; but then so is most cultures if you really spend time studying them. they have created complex philosophies and had great intellectual, aesthetic, and theosophical debates. they are also the inheritors of a Chinese tradition and are no longer a contiguous culture, let alone the laughably ludicrous notion of contiguous empire, of the Han Imperial period of around 200 BCE - 200CE. they no longer eat wheat as the main staple of their diet, they use Mandarin pronunciation words over their characters, and the characters themselves have migrated in shape (to speak nothing of simplified Chinese). the list is endless. the reason we give them the "5000 years of continuous history" is to a) please their hagiographic image of themselves and b) most of us don't know better.

i completely agree with your assessment,"I would say China today is vastly different from China 70 years ago, don't you think?" sense of self is vastly complex -- identity politics being all the rage -- but it does bear repeating. just like the Jewish, Greek, Hindustani, and Persian traditions (throw in any others as you please), the traditions are still there, but the cultures have definitely undergone severe transformation, and their territorial areas (let alone boundaries for empires) are all disconnected from their past. honestly, if everyone judged their culture from their tradition, then everyone could say their culture goes back 5000+ years, where on earth do you stop? if you don't speak the same, eat the same, think the same, value things in similar manners, or structure your home and family in the same manner (hello, lack of slaves and new opportunities for women), what nonsensical claims can you have to "same culture"?

people throw out terms easily from different disciplines, and vernacular understandings really do muddle up the waters. normally i don't care, but after this exchange, i thought i should intervene and clear up some things. culture, empire, and tradition, are distinct terms; we do well to not fall into political bumper sticker slogans when talking about such things.

ps: you bring up excellent points about Chinese history. i am glad to see someone as well versed about China on this board. do carry on.

[parkia00]

71. I disagree on this part.

About "contiguous culture" when it comes to the Chinese or any other culture, they change over time. Whether it be assimilating another culture into their own or the constant evolution of themselves, change is to be expected. If there is no change there is stagnation. You brought up the point of the Chinese written word which itself evolved from much earlier pictorial hylogryphics. For example the Chinese character for house resembles a house and mountain resemble a mountain. And today we have simplified Chinese; which is another evolution.

"if everyone judged their culture from their tradition, then everyone could say their culture goes back 5000+ years" Tradition is part of culture. Whether it be Easter Sunday to the Roman Catholics or the Ford Model T to the Ford Corporation. When and old tradition was created long ago it adds itself to the overall culture of a certain people even though it may be very different to what we perceive as "modern".

[Frank Booth]

62. I still don't understand why racist shit like this is allowed on DU.

If this type of comment was directed at nearly any other ethnic group, it would have been immediately deleted.

[Mixopterus]

65. Protip:

Criticism of a civilization =/= racism.

Proper critiques of civilizations never address the inherent inferiority or superiority of genetic traits, largely because the differences between groups of humans on a genetic level are marginal at best. The way civilizations are organized has nothing to do with with innate traits, and therefore criticism of such can, by definition, cannot be racist.

To combine the two actions would render the criticism of ANY civilization at ANY point in a history a racist analysis. It seems a bit much, doesn't it?

[Frank Booth]

66. "They love cutting their own throats."

"They also have a piss-poor intellectual history, having never developed any sophisticated philosophies."

Now try to tell me by "they" you meant a civilization.

[Mixopterus]

67. I mean the civilization, obviously

You are going to have a very difficult time painting cultural critique as a racist venture.

[Atman]

44. One last post before this gets locked down?

Heresy's attempt to promote Chinese totalitarianism and shoddy/shitty/deadly manufacturing = EPIC FAIL.

.

[HeresyLives]

45. Some posters hiding behind nationalism

and nonsense rather than discussing high-speed trains.

Obama's ideas are that bad eh?

Gee, I liked em.

[Atman]

46. I LOVE the idea of high-speed rail. I live in the Northeast. Rail should replace air travel.

None other than Richard Branson (Virgin Airlines) proposed charging a huge surtax on any air route served by rail, as rail has so much less of an impact on the environment. I'm 100% for it. Considerably less so if we allow China to build "OUR" trains.

.

[HeresyLives]

47. It would be a terrific advance. I love trains.

And Canada and Germany are building high-speed trains in China.

Billions of dollars worth of them

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HeresyLives]

52. That's nice. I'm Canadian. I love poutine.

My family is Celtic.

Póg mo thóin to you and the brother.

[Mixopterus]

53. Fantastic

Maybe you can answer some of my posts in this thread, then? You seem to have a problem addressing my arguments.

[HeresyLives]

54. You haven't any arguments to address.

Bad case of high-school showoffness, but that's about it.

[Mixopterus]

55. What?

I've made several arguments, which I can back up if you would like.

Should we start with the intellectual foundations of Greece versus. China?

[HeresyLives]

56. CAN WE TELL IT'S TGIF AND A FULL MOON?

Yes indeed we can. :rofl:

Anyone who'd still like to discuss high-speed rail, from whatever country, start another thread, or wait to post again until yer sober.

I'm moving on...my ribs hurt from laughing!

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Better Believe It]

73. And China ispending over 200 billion on high speed rail this year alone! We can't because

that money is needed for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and U.S. military bases in over 100 nations.

On that we have bi-partisan agreement in Washington.