Overdraft fee replacement worse than the original

[The Straight Story]

Overdraft fee replacement worse than the original

Ugh. Did we just manage to get one annoying, expensive bank fee out of our hair only to turn around and find another one staring us in the face? Yes, we did, according to MSNBC's Red Tape Chronicles.

Here's the short version. The Federal Reserve is cracking down on banks that are slapping their customers with overdraft charges of up to $35 if they overdraw their account by even a few dollars. Beginning this summer (July for new account holders, a month later for existing customers), Americans will have to choose to be part of this racket. (Think about it; If you spend $10 you don't happen to have on lunch with friends and get charged $35, the bank is essentially loaning you that $10 at a 350% interest rate.)

With terms this onerous, the only way the banks could make people voluntarily want to sign up for overdraft "protection" would be to make it the less unpleasant option. Unfortunately, as cynical as it sounds, this is exactly what some appear to be doing.

What banks have started doing instead of charging a $35 "overdraft protection" fee is charging -- are you ready for this? -- a $35 "insufficient funds" fee. You get charged the same amount, and your card won't even be accepted for purchase.

Other banks are creating overdraft fee tiers, in which you pay less for the first overdraft than for the fourth one and so on. Consumer Reports describes some of these programs. While we're in favor of a system that doesn't punish a one-time slip-up to the same degree as repeated overdrawing, we're leery of adding yet another layer of complexity to a system that many people don't seem to understand.

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/01/22/overdraft-fee-replacement-worse-than-the-original/

[sandnsea]

1. This is how it used to be

You had to have credit or a savings account for actual overdraft protection. I consider the $35 overdraft protection savings from when they used to run checks through twice, and you used to get charged twice from the store too. I just object to the ridiculous amount of the fee or that they run the account dry processing the biggest check first, so they can collect the fee on all the little debits. I bet they didn't change any of that.

My son also got charged an $8 a DAY negative balance fee recently, because he didn't know if he sent 3 post-dated checks for monthly payments to the court, that they'd cash them all at once. He was down over $300. Poor kid.

[Igel]

2. The fee's steeper than I remember.

But, yeah. Insufficient funds = penalty.

Now, I will say that I understand the old penalty more than this one. The old one required that people handle the check and process it--it would go from place to place, only to be returned. Granted, they probably made money when the fee was taken into account, but they actually had some time and effort involved in it.

This? A computer checks a database, the numbers don't work out and it's declined. Total time spent: on the order of 0.012 seconds.

Still, that's the risk when trying to manipulate the behavior of others. They have their goals, you have yours. Forcing them to pursue your goals is usually a losing proposition: You can make them, but only at the risk of micromanaging and stomping on them.

[sandnsea]

4. It was $20-$25, ten years ago

It hasn't been affordable, like $5-$10, in over 20 years that I can remember. But I always thought it was more a punishment fee than related in any way to the costs involved. Stores always said they had to recover the cost the banks charged them, but banks only charged $2 to a business. That doesn't happen anymore with the overdraft protection.

I think what people would prefer is if they run their debit card that it says "no money", rather than let them shop all day thinking everything is good to go. Did they require the banks to make that change? Doubt it.

[FLDCVADem]

80. I agree

When debit cards first came out, if you didn't have the money in the account, the "check" was declined. You could have overdraft protection if you had a line of credit, but you had to request that.

I've been with nothing but credit unions for the past 30 years, and they still offer the line of credit for overdraft protection. No fee if you use it, other than the interest on the amount utilized from the LOC.

[leftofcool]

3. Here is how ya avoid this...

Don't spend money you don't have in the bank and keep a check register instead of relying on your online bank information. Keep that register right to the penny and you will never be overdrawn.

[sandnsea]

5. Unless

as my son did, you give somebody 3 post-dated checks and they cash them all, because he didn't know any better and didn't ask anybody. Mistakes happen to everybody. Even mistakes in the check register, like flat forgetting to enter money you spent or one of many very common math mistakes.

[G_j]

8. or forgetting to add the fee for using a different ATM machine

it's hardest when you are living dollar to dollar

[Better Today]

11. Don't use ATM's or get online daily and double check the fees you

are being charged. I use a local bank so I don't have ATM card or debit card. If getting some cash is important then I'll find time to get to the bank. If I don't make it to the bank, the cash must've not been important to have.

[Better Today]

10. Don't post date checks then, and balance your checking account

regularly.

I've never, and I mean never written a check I didn't know if I could cover. It doesn't have to happen.

Perhaps better personal finances should be taught in school. This is no brainer territory.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Better Today]

17. Yes, I absolutely do know why, that's why I don't use ATMs for anything

and manage my money so as to not have an issue with the hold on a paycheck.

I have worked in banks, I am not ignorant, but you can keep trying to paint it that way.

Seems to me anyone who gets an overdraft without knowing in advance it is going to happen is ignorant about how banks work.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

15. But have you written one that bounced anyway?

Because you made a mistake? And what's your salary? And how many times did you go borrow money from mommmy and daddy?

[Better Today]

18. No, I've never written a bad check nor bounced one. To your other

questions, I've not spoken to my parents since I was 16 in 1976, no they never bailed me out nor needed to.

I own my own biz and am doing very poorly at the moment, have had times of fortune, but not now.

If you know how to handle money, checks, and banks, mistakes just won't happen, but as an accountant, I do double entry books even for my personal stuff. That may be one reason I have no issues as mentioned here.

[sandnsea]

23. Oh you're an accountant

Congratulations on your success, truly. Not hard to manage a checking account on $100,000 income.

You succeed at numbers, I succeed at people. I talked to my parents until they died, and my kids talk to me. Everyone has their talents.

[Better Today]

28. Stepping in territory you shouldn't now. I have no lack of social

skills, my parents however do. My children and I get along fine and I have no people problems.

I'm so sorry you are so bank accounting challenged, as I said before, it seems our education system should do a better job of teaching this stuff.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

46. Things have changed in the last 10 years

And unless people are broke and see it first hand, I think they just don't know. It's like the "insufficient funds" thing. Those of us who are older are like, uh yeah, and so?? Because that's the way it always was for us.

[Better Today]

49. If you don't like the way your bank treats you, get a local bank

don't use ATMs and don't use debit cards. Learn how to balance the checking account regularly.

If you don't believe these things will resolve the problem then you are sorely mistaken and if you have issues with bouncing checks, which I do not and have never, then you shouldn't be giving anyone advice about it.

[sandnsea]

54. I think the point is to make the crooks stop being crooks

They are taking advantage of normal logical human behavior. Deposit paycheck, buy groceries, take wife out to dinner, go dancing. That is normal payday behavior for millions of people. They don't expect to have checks bounce because of assinine bank policies that are designed to pick people's checking accounts.

[Better Today]

57. Then go to a local bank and be a better bank advocate for yourself.

No one is forced to bank with such entities.

[sandnsea]

60. I think I'll get legislators to write laws

to make banks treat consumers fairly. How about that?

[Better Today]

62. How is it unfair to expect you to not overdraft or bounce a check?

You seem to claim you know the rules better than anyone here, so why can't you simply work within them and not bounce checks?

Supposedly I'm an idiot, yet I've never bounced a check and no I'm not wealthy, never have been, just good at managing my accounts.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

66. Deleted sub-thread

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[ThatPoetGuy]

63. The argument you're making is the argument of a monster.

"She was raped? Well, she shouldn't have been dressed like that."

"They were bilked of their money? Well, they shouldn't have trusted him."

On one side we have poor people, many of whom have not been given the best of chances, and they are struggling.

On the other side there are professional financiers -- people with doctorates in mathematics and finance -- who have been hired to devise the most effective methods of tricking the poor into overdraft.

Most banks have changed their policies in a deliberate, coordinated effort to trick the poor out of money.

And you're blaming the poor.

They were "asking for it," right?

[Better Today]

68. BOO! Seriously I'm sorry you can't handle your checking account

but it ain't hard to do. I wish you more smarts in the future.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThatPoetGuy]

78. It's not about me. I balance my accounts fine, because I have a "cushion."

I suspect the same is true for you. But I've watched those who don't have a "cushion," and the system as it is now, is designed to screw them.

Bank policies have CHANGED. Expert financiers have devised systems with the intent to rob poor people. And you're supporting this.

[w4rma]

6. How sanctimonious of you, leftofcool. (nt)

[ThatPoetGuy]

7. You're wrong.

Banks have changed their practices in recent years.

Here's a simple exercise. Suppose you have two dollars in the bank. You borrow a fifty-dollar bill from your uncle Ernie. You deposit it in the bank, and ask for twenty dollars cash back. How much do you have in the bank?

You are overdrawn. Do you know why?

[Better Today]

12. If it's a $50 bill you shouldn't be unless your bank sucks, if it's a check

then you are because the bank will hold the check amount until the check clears the uncle's bank.

[ThatPoetGuy]

14. In the example, it was $50 cash. And that's how banks work nowadays.

Banks now rearrange the order of your transactions. It's legal. And they do it.

They don't process transactions chronologically. They process withdrawals and payments first, starting with the largest. And then they process deposits.

You haven't taken the time to learn, and then you shot your mouth off, in ignorance. Learn something. Get informed. Don't go spouting ignorance. Don't go blaming the victims.

Especially when you've made it 100% clear that you would fall into the exact same banking trap that they have.

[sandnsea]

16. In that case, you tell the clerk to overwrite

And put the deposit in while you're standing there. They do still do that in my bank. A couple of times a month in my case, lol.

[Better Today]

19. Exactly and wait for the receipt, will work for cash, just not a check.

[ThatPoetGuy]

22. No, it won't.

You can live in fiction as much as you like, but nothing you've said is true. Educate yourself.

They can hand you a receipt, and at the end of the next day, they will rearrange your transactions, using methods that have been consciously designed to screw the poor as much as possible.

Shame on you. Shame. You've chosen ignorance over knowledge. You've chosen false judgment over compassion.

Shame on you.

[Better Today]

25. Then you need a better bank, I have never had a problem with the

local banks here doing any of that crap. Again, if it's a check, sure, but cash, never.

Perhaps you should be a better advocate for yourself in choosing your bank.

[ThatPoetGuy]

31. READ.

Is it so hard?

There have been articles in the New York Times, in USA Today, in all the financial mags.

READ.

EDUCATE YOURSELF.

STOP SPOUTING BULLSHIT.

Stop behaving like a disgraceful human being. Stop acting like the kind of person that all good people would spit on.

You don't know what you're talking about. AT ALL.

Read. Learn. Educate yourself. Then apologize to all the victims you've been spreading lies about.

Here's one article, to get you started.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/credit/2009-07-08-banks-overdraft-fees_N.htm

[Better Today]

37. Actually it is you who is not understanding what's being said.

It's simple, don't bounce checks, and you won't get charged, or if you do, the bank should resolve it quickly. If the bank doesn't then you need a better bank, perhaps a local one.

[ThatPoetGuy]

47. I'm all for local banks, ok? Now STOP SPREADING LIES.

Get an education. I've posted an article for you to read, but instead of learning a thing or two thousand, you've chosen to come on here and pollute this site with more of your ignorance.

You've been attacking the victims of a scam you don't even understand. It's mindboggling. It's grotesque. I'm unnerved by the fact that you claim to be a parent, because someone so dishonest, someone so determined to blame the innocent, shouldn't be allowed near kids.

[laughingliberal]

38. I have never had the bank hold a cash deposit but one of our business partners did

I also remember a time when the banks posted deposits for the day before checks. Apparently, that is no longer SOP.

[Better Today]

50. Certainly we've had that happen at businesses but a quick call has

always cleared it right up and all fees removed.

[sandnsea]

56. lol, poor people don't get things cleared up

There's no such thing as a "quick call" and even if you can't feed your kids for a week, nobody gives a shit. They're just like you - balance your checking account and you wouldn't have any problem. Oh, and don't like it, change banks. click.

[laughingliberal]

85. He changed banks. Which was the right move AFAIC nt

[sandnsea]

27. Ask them to overwrite that process

It works, trust me. I have only bounced checks when I literally had no money and they were about to turn off the power or phone, and that's rare. If I have a check and am on the verge, I take it in and ask them to check my account and if I'm about to be overdrawn, they overwrite it all and put my deposit in first. If your bank looks at you like you're from outer space, talk to someone over 50, or change banks.

[sandnsea]

24. My bank overwrites anything I ask them to n/t

[The Straight Story]

26. Cash does not work either - it is about POSTING to an account, which is how banks screw you

They will tell you not to trust what you see online, or even your receipt (that is money that is GOING to your or account or POSTING - not what it really is at that moment in time). It may show you have $1000 but you really don't until after they 'process' the batch later that day.

They know it is confusing, they don't care because they make money off of it.

[Better Today]

30. However, if you don't write a check till after you've deposited cash

then the check and the cash will post on the same day, tomorrow if after 2pm and tonight if before 2pm.

This of course doesn't work if using ATM or debit cards, which are posted differently depending on the bank, and hence why I don't use them.

[ThatPoetGuy]

34. No, it won't.

I'd be surprised if there is anyone, anywhere, on the internet right now, whose ratio of ignorance to certainty is higher than yours. And that's saying something.

Banks get to decide when to put the checks through. They get to decide when to put the cash through. They shuffle the transactions around in whatever order will be most disadvantageous to the customer.

Stop spouting falsehoods. Stop spreading ignorance. Stop blaming the victims. Stop behaving like garbage.

[Better Today]

39. Wow, you're really in attack mode, too bad you're WRONG.

[The Straight Story]

40. well - sort of correct :) The newer banking laws hit the whole check thing hard

Chase was one of the first banks to roll out the new systems after the law passed about not having to physically move checks around. A cashier can get a check, then scan it in, and the original check no longer had to float from one bank to the next (banks used to have to physically send checks bank to bank). They could move the funds to/from an account without the old waiting period - notice they do that nicely when removing funds from an account, but when putting them into one.

Check kiting has become more difficult because of this (one of the reasons they wanted the new law, the other was to reduce costs associated with moving paper around...they saved money and then made money off it, I don't think they passed those savings along).

Before you needed more human interaction to post checks, now it is handled by computers - not just on the end where you hand someone the check, but on every little hop between banks where the original check was drawn.

Not as bad as atm cards, but no where near what it used to be.

[Better Today]

52. I'm not sure of your point, either way, if you don't already have enough

in the account to cover whatever check you're going to write in a minute, you cannot count on the check you just deposited to cover the check you're going to write in a minute.

Whether electronic or not, the bank reserves the right to hold the amount of a check for up to 10 days after the deposit is made, it's clear as day in the docs I signed when I signed up at my local bank.

[sandnsea]

41. Not true, if all before 2 pm (4 pm at my bank)

What he's saying is it doesn't matter what time of day the deposit and withdrawal is made, if it's all in the same day. They run the withdrawals first, and then the deposits. So even if you make a $50 deposit and keep $20, if your bank account was zero to begin with, you'll still be overdrawn at the end of the day. They'll deduct the $20 withdrawal, you'll get a $35 bank charge, and bam, the $50 won't cover it. It's bullshit, but it is what they do.

Unless you make them overwrite while you stand there and then that won't happen, whether it's a check or cash.

[Better Today]

53. A quick call to the bank clears that right up at local banks anyway.

Some businesses I've worked for have occasionally had that happen, but a quick call always clears it right up and fees are removed.

[sandnsea]

58. See above

No it doesn't. The world doesn't work the same for everybody else as it does for you. Your money buys you privilege that you never knew you had.

[Better Today]

61. Nope I just have a really great bank, because I looked for one and found one.

[Raschel]

74. I bought an item and returned it the same day. They entered the debit first, the credit

a day or two later. Thieves.

[gleaner]

33. Yes, even without reading further ...

Banks now post debits before credits. I found that out the hard way when it first started happening. I have direct deposit of my checks from the feds. The bank can see it coming in before the date I have access to it, but they hold it for a couple of days before I am allowed to draw on it. So one payday all bright eyed and happy, I went into the bank and got some cash back after they assured me my deposits were on and "available". A couple of days later I got the overdraft notice. I called them and they said the magic words. "We post debits before credits now. So I had to learn to wait until one day after my deposits posted to draw on it in any way to keep from getting overdrafts. It sucks.

[Better Today]

43. Checks, absolutely they hold those, till they are sure they'll clear.

Even direct deposit has a time period where the issuer can essentially issue a stop payment even though it was direct deposited.

[gleaner]

84. The issuer of the direct deposit ....

Was the Federal Government. They were retirement checks for both me and my husband. Somehow with the number of direct deposits for employees, retirees and entitlement programs I don't see them stopping any individual deposit. They are sent out in batches and if they want the money back, Treasury contacts the bank and takes it. That mostly occurs with programs like Veterans benefits or Social Security when the annuitant has died or there is proof of fraud. The feds do not like to garnish checks they issue either. It can be done but it can take months or years and is limited to issues like back child support or large court judgments. I retired from IRS, so I'm pretty familiar with how banks work too. Did you ever work for a bank? You sure seem fond of them. If you were an accountant, you are probably pretty familiar with how a tax audit works too, and how familiar we have to be with banking procedures. What banks were doing when I was auditing was nothing like what they began doing while Bush was president or even in the last few years. Are you familiar with how OPM pays employees or how the various agencies pay beneficiaries? Even most lawyers don't know that.

My husband retired from Social Security. He worked with the SSI program. It is a needs based program for people who are aged, blind and disabled. Since income and the number of bank accounts the claimant had, he was pretty familiar with banks as well. He had to get banking records from them all the time. I could subpoena them, he had to ask and depend on the claimant providing them, but that is a story for another day. Came as a Hell of shock to him to when things changed. Especially when we kept good track of our accounts. If you ever have the misfortune to deal with Chase or Bank of America you might share the thrills we experienced. No matter how much you think you know you should always be prepared for the unexpected. No one is entirely in control of their money that is kept in a bank unless they own the bank and make the rules. Unfortunately very few of us own banks. Banking today is the province of abusive monopolies. That is why we moved our money to a credit union. Better treatment of customers and you own a little share of it. They are also insured, regulated and safe. Do you have any experience with credit unions or do you prefer banks?

[Roon]

9. I suck at math and have a hard time balancing my checkbook

and ended up closing an account or two because I was in the hole so deep.

Now, I have online banking. I know down to the penny how much money I have and haven't overdrawn my account in years.

The only thing I have to be careful is some places take their sweet old time to batch their CC transactions and of course when you give someone a tip with your card you have to figure that in too.

I don't bother keeping a registry for my bank account, I just watch my balance online and it works for me.

[The Straight Story]

21. That does not work

You get your check, put it in, before 3pm - so should be same days' business.

Bank waits 72 hours to post.

Your spreadsheet shows you have X when you don't.

Happens a lot.

I used to work for chase and worked closely with several other large banks - they could those funds in right away, they don't - because they get a lot of their money from overdraft fees (some banks make 25% of their profit from such fees).

Go ahead and deposit cash too at some banks, check your online account and your spreadsheet - then see if you don't get hit with fees when they tell you it was 'active' in your account yet.

[Better Today]

32. Large banks, you may be correct, but never had that issue with local banks.

MOVE YOUR MONEY!

[ThatPoetGuy]

36. No, the Straight Story IS correct.

You are just clueless.

[The Straight Story]

45. 45% of all banks would not have made money if not for overdraft fees

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x67124

and other such articles.

But I DO agree with you - move money out of large banks, but don't trust anyone ;)

[sandnsea]

51. More from overdraft fees than from profits

Banks now make more on debit card overdraft fees than credit card penalties—they'll rake in about $27 billion in 2009 alone, according to the New York Times. They obviously have zero incentive to curb the practice. In fact, one economist told the paper that "45 percent of the nation's banks and credit unions collect more from overdraft services than they make in profits."

http://consumerist.com/2009/09/banks-cling-to-overdraft-fees-because-they-need-them-to-survive.html

[Better Today]

55. Exactly why I don't have a debit card. They are too seductively

available to purchase shit one probably doesn't need, can't afford, and if one had to wait till the banks open to get the cash, one would likely not buy whatever it was. Or so I've found to be the case for myself.

[sandnsea]

67. Okay. Try this. Food Stamps Cards Don't Overdraft

Get it? The bank doesn't have to do this. They can set it up where your card is just rejected. No problem.

They Don't. They have to have the overdraft money or they'd go out of business. Doesn't that terrify you? It Should. BANKS are that dependant on OVERDRAFT FEES.

They have rigged their whole system to collect the most fees possible, even at the expense of people operating their accounts in an honest and logical manner.

They're CROOKS.

[Better Today]

69. Of coure they're crooks, the big banks anyway. So be smarter.

[sandnsea]

73. Since when is "be smarter" the answer to CRIME? n/t

[ThatPoetGuy]

75. It always is, when you're trying to blame the victim. N/t

[sandnsea]

81. Strange moderating in this thread

Too bad lurkers won't get an opportunity to understand how banks are stealing from people. Oh well, cya later.

[ThatPoetGuy]

82. I don't make a habit of discussing moderation...

but yeah, the moderator's actions functioned to hide the facts about banking abuses. Ah well.

[Better Today]

76. Ever since locks were invented and used. Duh!

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThatPoetGuy]

83. And thanks to the invention of locks, there was never a need to make stealing a crime!

That's your argument, isn't it? If someone steals from you, it's because you didn't use adequate locks, and nothing should be done to prevent anyone from trying to steal or to punish those who do steal.

[live love laugh]

86. A checking account is not a loan agreement. nt

[Mike_03]

29. Shocking on one hand but hardly a surprise.

This is what banks do best--screw the customer. I am getting eight calls a day asking if I want to buy "insurance" from my bank.

We are into a crisis, but most people do not wish to acknowledge it on any level.

[depakid]

42. We can prety much forget about Congress or the administration holding the banks accountable

or providing much relief or ordinary folks beyond window dressing.

Too bad, because had they been actively dedicated to doing so- we'd be talking about how many seats the Democrats were going to pick up, rather than considering how bad the thumping is likely to be in November.

[Statistical]

35. I got tired of the banks. Use a credit card.

Everything point on sale I put on credit card (gasoline, groceries, restaurants, prescription drugs, fast food). Everything

End of month I make a payment from checking to the CC.

No interest, no fees, too easy.

A bonus tip:
I setup an automatic payment equal to min payment on my CC. It goes through one week before due date. I do this automatically every month. That way if I have brain fart and forget to pay the CC then automatic payment covers it and no missed payment fee.

[The Straight Story]

48. One more tip - based on yours:

When I was working temp job last year I got my checks cashed at a check cashing place (Wal-mart as an example here, real cheap) and for a $2 fee could put my money onto a Visa debit card (Free when you use direct deposit).

Since few people use checks these days it was nice to avoid the normal bank hassle, monthly fees, delays in posting (by the time I left store, money was on the card - period. No waiting ever).

[Better Today]

59. Why pay $2 when one can handle one's money for free and evidenced

in the post you responded to? And why use a check cashing place at all, yuck, you couldn't pay me to set foot in one of those or a Walmart for that matter.

[scorpiogirl]

64. I've been experiencing this a lot lately.

This is a nightmare when you are struggling financially. Just today we got a $33 OD from Chase because my husband forgot that I told him to use our other account if he needed to buy something. Now there's more money going out I can't afford, but I can't really blame the bank. I don't think we deserved that big a penalty for a few dollars mistake, but at least we're contributing to those CEO bonuses!

I think we're going to change to a credit union in the next month. I'm done with the big boys.

[Better Today]

70. "I think we're going to change to a credit union in the next month. I'm done with the big boys."

Bingo! Chase sucks from everything I've read here from my "opponents". Choose carefully, take the agreements from numerous small banks or CUs home and read them and compare them before deciding which one to use.

[ThatPoetGuy]

72. Chase DOES suck.

And it's bought a lot of small regional banks recently. So people who had positive relationships with their banks for years, who have been working multiple jobs and dealing with family and health issues, are suddenly forced into a position where brilliant and unethical financiers at Chase are working their hardest to screw them out of money.

[scorpiogirl]

79. You got it!

They are capitalizing on the fact that I have to shuffle money around to survive right now. My husband's been out of work for a year and a half and it's catching up to us now. I know we are not the only ones. I am usually very careful with my money, but it's harder when there isn't much.

[dkf]

87. How does this differ from the check kiting scandal in congress?