"Oh! My little sweetums isn't going to get into Harvard* because of you!"

[Are_grits_groceries]

*Insert any college or university here.

I heard this all the time when I had Parent/Teacher conferences because 'little sweetums' had been punished or had not gotten an A+++++++++++++++.

I remember one meeting which was held because I had given 2 students ZEROES for cheating. One was showing the other his answers. It wasn't even close, and they both admitted it. The parents of the 'show-er' didn't think he was cheating. I never heard from the parents of the 'show-ee.'

They refused to believe it was cheating. I refused to debate the semantics of the situation. They could call it 'out of the goodness of his hearting' for all I cared. He got a ZERO. This didn't compute in their universe because ZERO was a temperature or a nickname for a Japanese plane in WWII, but not a grade.

I was told ad nauseum about what cheating was and wasn't. I was also told I would be held responsible for his failure to get into Harvard or Oxford or whatever ultra-elite school that was the flavor of the month. I told them he was in the NINTH grade and that it was the FIRST month of the school year. He had plenty of time to pull the grade up and make an A. He wasn't doomed, and I didn't require ZERO to be written on his forehead in indelible red magic marker like some educational version of Hester Prynne. They wanted to know if she had gotten a ZERO also.(facepalm ran through my mind)

This was the opening of a new play at Hawthorne High School. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was a major character in this offering. I was hounded for weeks about giving the poor, bedraggled little person a retest. His counselor told me that they did that all the time at the middle school he came from. She didn't agree with it, but that's where a lot of it started.

I finally got so fed up with the almost daily conferences with somebody about it that I told the principal it had better stop. I gave her my written resignation and said that I was leaving if I heard one more word about it. I told her that I didn't have another job, but I thought that blowing grass clippings off medians was preferable to this torture. She said to keep teaching and she would take care of it. I thought she should be able to because she was responsible for 99% of it.

I wasn't sure what the parents thought. I wasn't going to send out a form letter to every school about the incident so the child wouldn't be accepted. Nor did I keep a calendar to remind me in 4 years to find out where he was applying so I could haunt the committee that considered possible enrollees.

These types of children were doomed IMHO. The parents refused to let any type of punishment be given because it would spoil the record of their child. I thought it was better to let them suffer the consequences now which were minor rather than bail them out all the time. They wouldn't be able to bail them out of life later on.

When this topic came up as it inevitably did when parents were running interference, I always wanted to tell them to save up because if they weren't using that cash for Harvard later, they might be using it to post a bond somewhere.

(I know people will now jump in to tell me how their child was unfairly treated in some situation. I'm not against a parent coming to the defense of a child when necessary. I'm dealing with kids who are never wrong no matter what.)

[11 Bravo]

1. A HUGE K&R from this public school teacher of 35 years!

[madokie]

8. Yup

+1

[dotymed]

173. I attended schools,

in my day, where corporal punishment was administered appropriately. I wish it still was. If (and I did) you were paddled, you LEARNED that your behavior was inappropriate. If your parents found out (mine did not), then there would also be hell to pay at home. We also had a "smoking area" in H.S. which was not good, but at the time, understandable. Kids were forced to learn how to behave and how to be responsible. It sure as hell beats "teaching to a test." They were not treated as mindless drones...

[newspeak]

199. One of my favorite teachers would never use a paddle

when she was out for a couple of months for medical reasons, we had five substitute teachers who could not maintain the class. Two of those teachers were men with a paddle fetish. It was the respect we had for our teacher, and the praise she gave us, that kept us in line.

My friend taught second grade--my son was in his class. All the students loved him-everyone wanted to be in his class. He used a technique where each year, the students chose who they were going to be. The year my son was in class they were warriors--it kept the class together, instead of dividing the kids-and in the morning the teacher would put his hands together and bow to the class and they would bow to him. For punishment, he believed in exercise (usually running a lap or two).

I don't think paddling solves everything.

[rapturedbyrobots]

208. i went to an elementary school in NM

they used the paddle. one day the problem kid in my second grade class went into the hallway with the teacher for a paddling. we heard one thump then a LOUD scream. it wasn't jake. it was the teacher. after the first swat he kneecapped her and ran off. she never used the paddle again.

[Robb]

2. No, it's a toughie right there.

You behaved absolutely correctly.

I've never doubted myself so much as when I (recently) became a parent. I'm reading your story trying to tell myself I'd behave differently than the psycho parents you describe.

I hope it turns out I do. :)

[daleanime]

3. I'm thinking about teaching...

am I insane?

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. Substitute teach a few times.

Kids pull every trick in the book on those poor souls. You really learn classroom management.

[Posteritatis]

76. Sometimes ends up helping in other ways, too

We had The Best Substitute Teacher Ever(tm) when I was in eleventh grade; there was some amount of goofing-off, but the guy could also manage a class and got along great with the students. People were actually upset if they missed a day due to illness or something and it turned out to be a Mr. W day.

Some retirements were coming up imminently anyway, and a bunch of the students (successfully) nagged the school to offer to let him stick around, both because they liked him and because they felt he'd be a step up from a lot of the other teachers. He was full-time there starting a year or two later.

[dotymed]

174. Before I joined the carpenters Union

I had to substitute teach, to make ends meet, in the winter (4 winters). I decided I would take my Eng. Lit. degree and pursue carpentry. My daughter, 3.9 GPA, Presidential Scholarship,is in her Junior year to become a teacher. She is a great young lady. I think it will not take her long to become "burnt out", because now teachers have to deal with administration more than students..

[MrMickeysMom]

177. I learned classroom management too late...

... upon entering post secondary education. I was teaching health occupations (another reason for kids to de-value the elective they chose in high school) to 9th, 10th, 11th and 12 grade. I hadn't finished my educational degree when I took a position in secondary education for a year.

What a reality check- I had no assigned classroom of my own (thus all the lab along with my kids files had to be put on an AV cart between classrooms, portable, but it worked). I had practiced home care in that same area of the neighborhood, which was in the lowest soc-economic portion of the school district, so I knew about some of these families. Some kids probably are thanked me later, but I'll never know. I developed a good skin for trying to get them to use their skills, and heads. However, when it came to communicating to some parents (who seemed to have had poor learning experiences in that same setting) I often wasn't able to hear from them after personal phone calls, and some made every excuse in the world in the attempt to deflect their child's responsibility. Very interesting experience for me... BUT IT WAS WORTH IT. Why? You always take those experiences to the next wave that you surf!

I did better with adult health occupations after that for a while. Guess what? Not much changes in the affective domain with some adults. You just realize the more you do in the formative years, the less you might have to "re-do" post secondary.

I salute you, AGG!

[donco6]

13. You are not insane.

I must admit, it's a different world today than when I first entered. But if you can find the right position, and choose your discipline carefully, there are opportunities out there. And not all places are totally insane. Just partially.

[LWolf]

58. Until the climate, and the national direction changes,

you would be insane.

Don't get me wrong. I love teaching. I've always felt called to my profession. But the amount of crap we take, the relentless degrading of the profession, while the $$ to finish all that schooling, testing, and licensing continues to rise...

If the direction we are going doesn't change pretty soon, there won't be a public education system, or a career another couple of decades down the road. If you really want to go into teaching, make sure you get a BA and a Masters that can be useful elsewhere.

[Posteritatis]

73. Yes, but if it's an insanity you're comfortable with it can be worth it. (nt)

[Arkana]

122. You are.

Teachers are easily the most maligned professionals in today's society. They're underpaid, overburdened, and underappreciated.

[onpatrol98]

142. Absolutely, crazy!!!

Crazy as a bed bug. LOL. Just kidding. The world needs good teachers. I hope you give it a try. My parents always assumed the teacher was right. And, typically they were. There were only two times when I was in hot water with a teacher and it was actually the teacher's fault, and somehow they knew that too. It's amazing. Somehow they knew, and I'm grateful.

I remember having to get 3 licks with a board, because a teacher (in front of students), went to the rear of the room and changed the time on the clock so me and a couple of friends would be tardy. That was seriously strange. The teacher was annoyed (and rightly so) with my little group moving EXTREMELY slowly. But, we always managed to make it to the class on time. She got fed up and fixed the clock. We went the principals office, and my watch actually was the same as his office clock. Two months of dragging to class where my watch always matched the clock on her wall. And, that day it didn't. When the other students told me she had marched back there to make the clock change. I was dumbfounded.

After trying to convince the principal to look at my watch, this grown man actually hangs his head and says...look, I can't help you. It's not that I don't believe you. Her husband was the superintendent. So, it was three licks or suspension. I took the licks. My parents were sympathetic, but they didn't approach the teacher. To them, it was a teachable moment. And, I must admit I learned a valuable lesson. I never felt the same about the teacher though. I just didn't respect her after that. But, I didn't drag to class anymore, either. She had made her point. She was the one with the power.

[jgraz]

4. Of course, the flip side is that many who do get into Harvard have been bailed out repeatedly.

See Bush, George W.

[anonymous171]

31. Yep. When you are rich you don't have to be pefect to get a good education. nt

[jgraz]

45. Correction: you don't have to be perfect to get a good pedigree

A good education is an entirely different animal.

[RaleighNCDUer]

192. You can lead a person to a good education, but you can't make him think. nt

[Posteritatis]

62. Story that reminded me of...

In the town I grew up in in Nova Scotia, there was this one guy who treated me like crap consistently the whole time I was there. (There were many such people, but that's a whole other rant). When my folks moved in seventh grade I rejoiced at getting away from at least the type like that I had some kind of history with - you know, the ones who believe they're bound by no rules or responsibilities or needs not to be an ass, while their parents encourage it by deciding they're flawless.

Fast-forward a few years; I find out from one of my friends back in that town that this guy got a free-ride scholarship to either Harvard or Yale. This gave me no end of annoyance, because the guy wasn't exactly well-endowed with the brainmeats either. But I was doing alright and happy with the distance from most of those memories, so life went on.

Fast-forward a couple more years. I'm reading the paper and find out that my former hometown's got a bit of a scandal going on. Apparently one of thier wonderful flawless former residents got expelled from a prestigious university in the US. Turns out it was this guy, and in his last semester there, no less. He was running a goddamned Southeast Asian sweat shop with student government funds and not even denying it. He went out kicking and screaming about how he did nothing wrong or indeed could do nothing wrong, and that those poor benighted savages should be grateful for the dollar a day of not-really-his money he was paying them, etc., of course.

In any case, I felt the world was a little bit more just since then...

[Odin2005]

104. Ha! Serves the bastard right!

[valerief]

159. Is he a Republican senator now? nt

[kwassa]

143. These days our students just hack their grades in the school computer ... true story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803494.html

Students at a Potomac high school hacked into the school's computer system and changed class grades, according to sources briefed by the school's principal, and officials are investigating how widespread the damage might be.

The incident prompted an emergency staff meeting at Churchill High School, a top school in one of the nation's premier public systems, and a recorded phone message to parents Wednesday saying that grades might have been corrupted by the hackers.

The extent of the apparent security breach was not immediately clear. Teachers at the school were being asked to review their grades for discrepancies. The students involved used a computer program to capture passwords from at least one teacher, according to school sources familiar with the situation who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

[MineralMan]

5. The little blighters needed a lesson in personal responsibility.

Their parents need a lesson in parenting. Instead of whining about their cheating child's bad grade, they should be telling the brat that he/she brought it on him/herself and that that's what they get.

If no lesson is learned, nothing is gained and the little urchin will continue to cheat.

[bbinacan]

6. You did the right thing.

Good for you. :toast:

[Catshrink]

9. I sure understand your frustration with that.

I think dealing with parents can be the most difficult part of teaching. My department chair laughs because I resist teaching honors students mainly because I don't want to deal with situations like you just described. The parents and kids are just too high strung - they are more concerned with grades than learning. And it gets old. Give me my "normal kids" any day!

[LuckyLib]

54. Huge numbers of teachers avoid the "high end" schools just for this reason.

Some of the parents are a pain in the ass. And when the administration doesn't back teachers, it's a lose-lose. Especially for the kids.

[itsrobert]

10. In the Seventh grade I was bullied in sharing my answers to 4 other kids

I told the teacher about it and she not only did nothing but then treated me harshly. Sometimes the student providing the answers is being pressured into that situation.

[LeftyMom]

22. That kind of thing happened to me a lot.

Then there were "group projects" which were frequently situations where the people bullying me into doing other people's work were the teachers themselves. :eyes: I'd inevitably get paired with people who were either stupid or lazy or both, so I'd either have to do a whole group's work or see my own grade suffer.

[MrsBrady]

56. I always hated group projects.

Not all, but many kids in a group setting slacked off, and I hated that.
They didn't care about their grade, and I did...and they knew that.
I wish they would have put the "low performing" kids together to see who would rise to the occasion.
Putting a good student with a "bad" student just makes it easier for the "bad" student to slack off.
And being that they were "bad" students probably had more to do with the system than their own ability.
I don't know what the answer is, but when I was a student, I rarely saw a "bad" student do their part in a project or assignment.


Also, I just finished a BA in Music, that was long overdue, at 37 years of age.
Putting college students in a classroom to do an assignment together was a joke.
Some of my classmates hated me because I actually wanted to do the assignment and learn something.

I actually had one classmate laugh at me in class, during the teachers lecture, after asking the teacher a question.
I called him out with a quick come-back insult (luckily I had had my coffee that morning), and that shut him up.
The few that wanted to do well sometimes asked me for help after class.
I'm not a genius, I just knew how to study...and put the time in.

[patrice]

68. Me too. Too much of that "cooperative learning" stuff going on!!!

Nobody seems capable of doing anything by themselves any more.

Then you get out into the business world and SEE up close and personal what this is costing U.S.!!! It really is shocking. My employers, usually younger than I, are always startled at how much I can do and the improvements I always build into what I'm doing.

[tammywammy]

71. Learning to work on your own is always good

But in the real world there's a lot of group work as well. I think learning should be able to incorporate both aspects of this. The problem in middle/high school is that there's no accountability of the slacker student. Of course the "A" student is going to do the extra work, they want an "A", and the lazier student just doesn't care.

[patrice]

82. You're right. I think the whole question boils down to the grading models that are being used and ho

w those models are implemented.

Part of my master's was related to grading. It's an extremely interesting question. Ask around a bit; you'll find it is ALL over the place.

[tammywammy]

86. I also think I learned to understand group projects, but not until university.

I think the university was on the right track with their grading model for group projects. This school takes student feedback very seriously. They had gotten lots of negative opinions about group projects for the obvious reasons, the slacker was getting an undeserved good grade. That's when they instituted (years before I was there) the peer review system. I'm a heartless bitch, I had no problems giving someone that didn't make it to group meetings when we would move the time to accommodate her, or wrote a half-assed paper on par with a high school paper, then god her presentation skills were sub-par and didn't cover her aspects really at all.

Later on in one class I was taking, they discussed group dynamics, written and unwritten roles, etc. I think that's when I learned more. This is a business only university, and I only had one professor that had only been a professor never anything else (and also the class I most hated). The other professors were able to bring in real world information, and basically said "hey in the real world, when you're out there working, it's NOT just you, you need to learn to work in a group and to do it well, and that's why we all make you do group work."

So, it wasn't until I was 28 and back in college for the second time that I truly understood group projects in school. :)

[patrice]

88. When it's done right, it's is a good learning experience. Problem is that it is Pro Forma too

much out there in our schools, all form, no substance.

[tammywammy]

89. Exactly n/t

[Posteritatis]

77. My master's program basically forbade individual work. That was a bit of a rude shock. (nt)

[patrice]

87. Oh, I had cooperative experiences in some of the course work and my thesis was about

curriculum development (in the technological milieu) - so it had a collective aspect to it, but I did all of the work of my thesis by myself in seminars where other MS candidates in the field regularly criticized what I was doing from the perspective of their own specializations (as I did their work).

And it was all at a Good state university.

[Posteritatis]

94. Yeah, mine had this trainwreck where they decided they were a vocational school for a year

The school I applied to was one where half the people in my program went on in academia - which was my plan - and half ended up working in the field in other ways. Between the time I was accepted and the time I got on campus they decided to shake things up to remove as much of the academic work as possible. This was explicit: one of the reasons they restructured the program was to limit the students' ability to go on in further graduate work. No individual research, no thesis, no papers ("you already know how to write those"), etc. Add the fact that each of has at least somewhat specialist backgrounds that often conflicted wildly with the others, and add to that the fact that we were generally given no say in what the group projects would be, and it was a recipe for disaster.

Basically, if I could ethically get away with denying I'd ever gone to that school, I would. In any case, I'll need another master's before I can be seen as worthy of real scholarship, because there was, by design, no evidence of it in the one I currently hold.

[patrice]

100. I am a Liberal, but I think the lack of somekind of standard process is bad for education and I also

think that it is quite possible to engineer the "templates" to incorporate both individual uniqueness AND collective functionality.

I liked the seminars best, because they made me think and communicate more.

I think some of what is going on is about "learning styles", counselors and psychologists look at something like graduate seminars and deem them 100% un-acceptable for certain kinds of students (because of their learning styles), when the learning environment should be structured to incorporate some levels of the "un-acceptable" learning style(s) in appropriate proportions to the student's strengths, so they can expand their skills and development.

Learning styles seem to be a cop out to me, to just keep the students happy and forget about the ways that the world is going to demand that your "tactile" learner perform somekind of reading, say, task.

[tammywammy]

67. I hated group projects until I started at this university last year

We always had group projects in each class. The good thing is your final grade was determined based off your peer review. If the presentation/paper got an A, but your fellow students said you didn't contribute, you could end up with a much lower grade. Each student peer reviewed each other on what they contributed and you had to back up a lower grade with a justifiable reason. It also worked in reverse, if your project got a B, but your fellow students thought you did such a good job you could end up with an A.

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Unfortunately that didn't happen with my college group projects.

We were merely graded on the final product and the few of us who could write competently often got stuck rewriting everyone else's portion of the paper. It is unbelievable how many people make it to college who can't write a legible sentence. I don't blame K-12 teachers because I know they're doing the best they can.

[tammywammy]

147. I heard that what happened

Is that enough students over the years had complained about grades like that that the school came up with the peer review system. This school took student feedback seriously.

I had no problem downgrading someone that didn't contribute. Specifically in one class, this one girl didn't make it to two group meets and was over an hour late to the third one (the day before the presentation). We changed times to accommodate her and at the last min she wouldn't show up or would leave early or show up really late. Then her part of the paper 1. didn't really cover what her topic was and 2. was written on level with a 9th grader. I completely rewrote it. I docked her on the peer review, I was tired of her excuses and she was always trying to start drama, and I could have overlooked that if she actually did competent work, but she never did.

The only time a group project pissed me off was the professor's doing. She paired me up with a baseball player at the school, he was a nice guy and all, but was going to be gone the day of the presentation. I asked the professor if we could do it another time and she just said "no." So I ended up doing most of it myself. I didn't dock him on the peer review, it wasn't his fault, but that was the one professor I never liked there she did a couple of things to piss me off.

[BolivarianHero]

207. Reminds me of a story from highschool...

It was a fairly straight forward lab assignment in my OAC chemistry class, and I was in a group with two girls (we chose our own group), one I always got along great with and loved to work with and another with whom I had a more mixed relationship. We didn't dislike each other, but I found her too stuck up socially and she found me too stuck up academically (possibly because she wrote a paper for a different class that we had together the previous year where had she spelled Fiji as "Figi" all the way through and I couldn't help but laugh when she showed me the paper...), and there was always a bit of tension there.

Anyways, we all worked on different parts of the write up, and it was decided that I would print it and staple and stuff for the group...

I was a much better writer than either of them, so I rewrote everything as I proof read...One of them was thrilled, and the other was PISSED when she saw what I had done even though we ended up getting a really good mark on it.

[Odin2005]

105. Sounds just like my experiences. GROUP WORK SUCKS.

[kurtzapril4]

117. I hate group work

I'm in college right now...I'm old and set in my ways, and I'm shy. I don't want to work with other people in class. I want to sink or swim on my own. Yes, I'm whinging! Here, though, I will wreck my own argument by saying...I was glad we worked in teams in my meterology class. I had a good team with 2 other women who were closer to my age.

Who's idea was this group work thing, anyway? More team-building crap, it sounds like. I remember being in a business meeting, listening to the VP make a god-awful, long-winded grand speech about teamwork..how great it is, how it will lift us all up, yadda yadda. He ended with a rousing "There is no 'I' in team!" My first thought.."and there is no 'L' in Fuck You!"

Been thinking about teaching, too, just don't know if I have the stomach for 4 more years of working in groups with people I don't know.

[Odin2005]

123. It's typical of our society's anti-introvert bias.

Introversion is seen as a defect that needs to be "fixed".

[Hello_Kitty]

139. There's no 'L' in Fuck You!

:rofl: :spray:

[FunkyLeprechaun]

170. Same here

And it wasn't me being the slack-off, they weren't doing any communication with me at all. I felt like I was slacking off and tried to do as much research as I could to get to know the subject we were doing (it was an end of the year assessment that we had to present to our professors). They were having meetings without me. They were getting team research done without me.

I called a meeting because I felt that it wasn't fair for me or for them that I didn't do any work for them. I said why can't you e-mail me meeting times, or even IM me meeting times (at the beginning of the study, I suggested that they set up AIM accounts to tell me when meetings were coming up, because of my deafness). The "project manager" (she assumed that position from day one) said, "Oh you're too hard to contact!" Another girl said, "Well, I don't have a laptop." The "project manager" hinted that I would get the lowest grade (We were to grade each other anonymously) and I said that's not really fair, I've tried to work with you!.

So I went to one of my professors, very visibly upset, and talked to him about it. He said he will take my grade into consideration (they also graded us and gave us the final overall grade of our year).

We did our assessment and all the girls, save for one, ganged up on me, "Funky, what do you think of this?" "I'm sure Funky would agree, is that right, Funky?" "(gives her answer), what do you think of that, Funky?" I saw the professor's faces and they were like, "Oh my god." They had to be neutral-looking also they knew what was going on (since I told one of them) but to see it for themselves, they were shocked. I thought on my feet and talked about things that I had done research on for the paper, including statistics that weren't in the final paper (because they never let me work with them).

I don't know how the girls graded me but I ended up getting a higher grade than the project manager. She got a B+ and I got an A-. She caught up with me, "Hello, Funky, how are you doing?" I said, "I'm fine, and you? What grade did you get for the paper, by the way?" She said, "Oh I got a B+, what did you get?" "An A-."

The look on her face was priceless.

[csziggy]

162. The one time a popular kid asked me to let her copy off my test

I laughed at her. That class was an easy A. Every test question was taken out of the questions at the end of each chapter of the textbook and there were less than ten questions on each test. If you were too lazy to read the text, just looking up the answers to the questions in the back of the book was simple.

Turns out the idiot cheerleader had not even cracked the textbook at all. I told her I wasn't going to help her be stupid. I never bothered telling the teacher - it was satisfaction enough getting the chance to tell off the cheerleader on my own. She flunked the class even after I told her how to get an easy A in the course. :dunce:

[droidamus2]

166. solution

I had a couple of guys that sat behind me that consistently cheated off my quizzes and tests so on one quiz (multiple choice) I put down my 'answers' (wrong answers) and then just before the teacher called for the test changed them to the right answers. The guys weren't real happy about it when they bombed the quiz and I aced it but I told them they needed to take their own tests and they quit cheating off me.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

169. I wasn't bullied to give the answers

We would do some work at the end of the chapter in 8th grade science class. I would read through the entire chapter and take notes. I would go through my notes to answer the questions at the end of the chapter.

The people sitting in front of me would look at my answers and copy them down. I didn't tell the teacher though, I decided that copying down the questions and the blanks would be better and look neater. The girl had the audacity to ask me, "Why aren't you putting your answers down?" I said, "I'll put them down later, at home." The girl looked so dismayed by actually doing any work in the class. It worked! (It was kind of homework as it was due the next day)

I've seen people at my lunch table give each other their papers so they can copy down the answers and this was Honors Biology. I would get really annoyed to get 8 out of 10 and the person who didn't really do the work get 10/10.

[madmom]

180. I had something similar happen to me in 7th grade. I had done a paper but wasn't

satisfied with it so I crumbled it stuck it in my desk and was going to throw it away after class. A chick behind me saw it fall out and took it and was copying it, she got caught. We both got called up, but because the teacher knew me, and knew the cheater. I was vindicated.

[donco6]

11. Sorry, I have to LOL!

In some ways, I would PRAY that a parent would EVER appear in one of our schools with that argument!

But I totally get your point. It's just so NOT that way here . . .

[Are_grits_groceries]

14. I taught in Northern Virginia.

EVERYBODY was IMPORTANT there, and they made sure you knew about it.

[donco6]

21. I can hardly imagine what it's like, really.

Our parents are pretty much convinced they are NOBODY. No sense of empowerment at all. I doubt if any of them will complete the census because they're terrified of anyone official. It's just night and day. But I wouldn't trade places with you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. And I was thinking the same thing

It's a miracle if some of our parents even bother to show up for parent teacher conferences.

[greenbriar]

12. I do the same thing

we have an online grading program that we are required to use and parents can see it too. Out of my 150 students, about 4 parents use it. I have some grades posted and also have the next two assignments that are projects posted with no grades yet. They are there just basically place holders that do not affect grades until I put the first student's grade it.

Mom of one of the students emailed and said this: "I am worried about #T%#X grade and that assignment he is missing. Also 150 points is a bit high isn't it"


I emailed back and said it wasn't graded yet and that it was a project so yes 150 points is accurate.

No reply back...

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. I have one who flunked every class 2nd quarter

I had called mom several times to let her know that her child was failing and finally after Christmas the child decided she should buckle down and start working. So I called mom to report the improvement.

Then report cards went home and she flunked every class. Mom called, furious that I had just told her her kid was doing better. I tried to explain and finally told her to call the principal, hoping she would be able to help Mom understand that one week of doing her best can't erase an entire quarter of flunking.

Sigh.

[patrice]

72. Boy, ain't that the truth!! They always think ANY act of compliance should be worth a gazillion%!!

[noamnety]

113. Ha, I've had that.

2 days before the end of the semester, the parent is suddenly interested in finding out what their kid can do to make up the work.

Nothing, you can't do a semester's worth of work in any meaningful way in two days.

One of my kids once told their parent that they didn't like to ask for help because I told them I would deduct points if I had to help them. That came up in a conference with the parent and student. What the student had neglected to tell her mother was that this happened during the final exam for the class. Yes, if I have to help you complete the final exam because you don't know how to do it, there will be a point deduction!

Generally my parents are all pretty good and I enjoy conferences, but every now and then I get one that makes me painfully aware that either the child or the parent has no interest in education or learning, only in ticking off grades in boxes. I hate that.

[greenbriar]

136. they don't understand...parents that is

one week of improvement does NOT wipe out 9 weeks of not caring

[glowing]

15. These are the types that always failed out of college. No accountability.

No one taking care of them. No one to do their homework for them. Unless these people were elite and wealthy, which I'm assuming they are not if they are using public educational system, they really are wasting their time and money on college.

If I f'd up in school, it was my f up and my f up to deal with. There are a couple of times in my life that my mother stepped in when the teacher was actually in wrong... but it was after I had to try myself to deal with the issue or problem. AND I never got a special treat for a good grade, they were expected.

[mudplanet]

160. A little human compassion might be in order here.

I was a teacher (university) for ten years and am now a social worker.

Yes, I ran into a**wipes that thought that it was perfectly alright to cheat (when I caught them at it my initial feeling was that I was insulted that they didn't even try to hide it) and to students whose parents would show up at the dean's office to complain that I was unfair or too strict (in college, no less. If I'd gone to my parents they'd have shamed me out of the house).

And as a social worker I'm well aware that the main problem with children is primarily parenting (as a family therapist it's almost rote that when a parent or parents come in to family counseling with the child as the presenting problem you can almost bet that the parent(s) have some unresolved problem and the kid's problem is merely a symptom of that).

But a lot of parents have real, non-self-created problems that make it very difficult (impossible) to provide optimum parenting. It's not an excuse but it does beg for understanding instead of (as well as) judgment. Not every parent that fails to provide optimum parenting is a jerk.

[KittyWampus]

16. Hee, I would've agreed to let the little angel take a re-test provided they handed in an essay about

"Cheating On Tests And Why It Is Not Acceptable Behavior".

My parents were both teachers.

My Dad said when he first started out, you called home and the parents almost always backed you up.

Now, the parents refuse to discipline at home and refuse to accept those left with trying to discipline in school.

Two terms I've heard and can not really approve of (I've no kids, am not a teacher and just observe families around me) are "trophy children" and "helicopter parents".

Trophy children being kids who've gotten awards for simply showing up and not actual hard work or achievements.

Helicopter parents being parents who zoom in and interfere with any consequences deemed too harsh.

I've seen stories of college professors getting calls from parents about the students work.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

171. It was the reverse for me

If I wasn't doing well in the class or something like that, my college would send a letter to my parents! One time I did quite well in the Biology exam and yet they sent a letter telling my parents that I didn't do well (typo on the letter, saying I got a D in the class when I actually had a B), my mum IMed me, Funky! WHAT IS THIS!!!!?????!?!?. I went to my professor, "What's this... I know I did well in the exam." He said, "OOPS!" and profusely apologised to me.

[david_vincent]

185. True story -- happened to my dad

My dad was on a teaching assistantship while he was earning his doctorate at Ohio State. This was years and years ago...
One of the students in one of his classes was on the football team, and he was flunking. At 7 a.m. on a Sunday morning, my dad's phone rings and who should it be but Woody Hayes !! "You're a loyal Buckeye, aren't you? We really need ____ on the team. He's a key player. You don't want to jeopardize our season, do you, son?" Yep, Woody Hayes himself called my dad to pressure him into passing the guy. My dad blew him off and the player ended up flunking. My dad said the guy was just too stupid to be in university.

[Withywindle]

17. And that is exactly how Republicans are made.

People who never learn empathy because they're bubble-wrapped against all potential suffering, even the most minor. People who never learn responsibility or the true value of mercy because they never have to admit they did something wrong and face the consequences, even the most trivial. People who learn as kids - taught by their parents - is that the way to get ahead in life is to blame and bully others to get out of their problems.

[KittyWampus]

32. I would bet a month's salary that a good percentage of parents like those mentioned in the OP

fall into the Democratic field.

Parenting seems to be like driving. Everyone thinks they perform much better than they actually do in reality.

And over the years I've noticed on DU that anytime I or another DU'er mentions personal responsibility as an important aspect towards success along with outside environmental factors, many many many other DU'ers descend like the Furies.

Do you really think it was Freeper-type Moms who started giving out awards to every single student regardless of actual achievement?

Ultimately, I really think the problems are way more complex than a simple dismissal of all problem parents being Republican.

[nxylas]

191. You can find them here on DU

I'm willing to bet the teacher-bashing contingent here is made up almost exclusively of such parents.

[Moonwalk]

205. Maybe Republicans who are Senators are Bubble-Wrapped, but there's those who vote for them....

...and they're often at the opposite end. They're the ones who say, "I've suffered and worked hard and succeeded, so everyone else can do it, too if they really want to! So don't you dare tax me to help them. Let them help themselves like I did!"

You can be made just as inured to mercy, empathy or responsibility to your fellow human beings from that experience as from the bubble-wrap/entitlement experience. But here's the real irony: those who sailed through prep schools and elite colleges because of helicopter parents are the ones uneducated tea-baggers are voting for because both want to keep the money they've made--and both connect over the fact that they hate and distrust anyone who appears to be smart. Like, say, a president who worked his way through Harvard Law school on good grades and intelligence. Which is why tea-baggers are so easily fooled and tricked. They think the elite share their distain of the smart guy and will protect them, their money, and their jobs from the smart guy's attempt to spread the wealth. What they don't realize that the elite guys don't want to protect their jobs or money, they just want to be able to use those taxes as their own personal credit card for subsidizing wars or their pockets, and they want to outsource the jobs so they can make more money.

Alas, they get into power, undercut educations and have more idiots who swallow their lies....

[vi5]

18. I've thought about teaching...

..but whenever I think of things like this and the way parents have become and heard about so many gutless principals and school administrator's I've decided against it.

This I think more than any other reason is why I think teachers are underpaid. Yes, what they do is valuable on it's face, but having to put up with this crap merits hazard pay on top of it.

Whenever I hear people rant about teacher's unions or how easy teachers have it because of summers off, etc. it just sends me into a rage because I know stuff like this is common and prevalent.

[patrice]

34. It is one of, if not THE, most intrinsicly rewarding professions there is. It's just incredibly HARD

I also believe that part of the right wing fundamentalist movement to "save the world" by taking over school boards and judge-ships, was also to teach, especially primary, what better way for all of those fundie moms to make a living, possibly even in their own childrens' school district and, then, get 2 months off in the summer, all while winning the war between good and evil for Jesus? So there are some crappy teachers out there, who make it even harder for everyone else.

I still miss it though. Students CAN be so incredibly rewarding.

[unblock]

19. the college i went to has a student-run honor system that kicks out cheaters

students are elected to an honor committee, students accuse other students, they have student-led trials, etc.
technically, the president of the university has veto power over any decision to suspend (permanently other just for one year) a student, but i don't think that power has ever been used.

so is a NINTH-GRADER better off with parents covering for their cheating, only to get into a top-notch school, and then kicked out for cheating?


oh, and by the way, not only is "showing" considered cheating, WITNESSING cheating and failing to report it is also considered cheating. you can get kicked out for any of it.

[droidamus2]

182. The worst cheater ever

The worst cheater I ever saw (actually didn't know the person but heard about it after seeing somebody pulled from class). Scenario, final exam in a tough computer science class. So this genius gets the idea to send somebody else in to take their final exam (don't want to get into a racial thing but the person was Asian and maybe thought the white professor wouldn't notice the person they had never seen in the class). Not only did the substitute student get caught but apparently would have flunked the test anyway because they didn't know the subject matter either.

[unblock]

183. sometimes it seems almost a truism. if you're not good taking tests,

what makes you think you'd be any better at cheating?

the only really reliable form of cheating is stealing the scoring key, if there even is one prior to the test.

and i've known wily teachers to deliberately put FALSE scoring keys where they might be stolen!

[dkf]

20. I understand the dilemma but also wonder if it is fair to punish someone who knows the material.

What do you do with someone who aces all the tests but has a bad attitude? Or doesn't know crap but is a sweet person?

What is the purpose of a grade?

[Are_grits_groceries]

26. They got a GRADE on how well

they did on the work required. I didn't GRADE them on attitudes. They were NINTH graders and most of them would have failed. I would have failed too as the teacher.

I dealt with behavior problems seperately. The sweet kid could get all the help needed if she wanted and so could the a**holes.

I also didn't care if they knew the work and were keeping it a secret for some reason. I couldn't read minds for a grade.

[dkf]

38. I'm talking specifically about the zero

and these two kids and if their mastery or lack thereof actually was zero.

I mean if part of the grade was attitude I can see giving that a zero.

[Are_grits_groceries]

42. I won't argue the sematics of what

is cheating with you either. BTW they were told at the beginning of the year they would get a ZERO in cases like this.

[dkf]

48. Well then you do grade on things other than mastery of the material,

That is your prerogative after all. Jeez.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. so what the hell should they be graded on

someone who is cheating cannot be trusted (in that instance) to know one bit of the information...ZERO is the only thing you CAN give unless you want to reward them or give them style points for HOW WELL they cheat...

sP

[dkf]

53. Test em separately after school.

Now THAT is punishment

[Raineyb]

69. No THAT is giving them extra time the other students, the ones who DIDN'T cheat,

don't get to bone up.

After school after the test has been given to all classes? That's rubbish! I knew a girl who was consistently absent on the day of a test so she can take the make up test after everyone else. Then would call people at home, or pump them at school the next day, to ask what was on the test. She NEVER did that to me more than once. She didn't like what I told her.

I knew a kid in high school who used to try to look at my paper during tests. I deliberately put the wrong answers down then changed them later.

[patrice]

70. Right, it's a reward to the cheaters. Anyone who has ever been there knows that would trigger

a flood of after school re-takes.

[dkf]

74. The poster says they can make up the grade and come out ok.

Where is the punishment in that? Parent teacher conference, spending time after school retesting, maybe even a public shaming (don't need to name names...kids know).

Maybe even an extra assignment on why cheating is bad. lol.

That seems more relevant to me. Hey its just my opinion.

[Are_grits_groceries]

79. Make up the grade

as in doing well for the rest of the year. If he made good grades on most of his other work, the ZERO wouldn't count as much.

[patrice]

84. That's exactly what happens. I checked such time and time again when I taught.

The zero IS reflected in the grade as is just and fair to non-cheating students, but if the individual does well, they probably won't even lose their bracket. THAT's the best thing for their learning; they have to learn that cheating is bad.

[dkf]

85. Exactly.

Maybe giving a zero makes a better citizen of the kid even if it doesn't test his knowledge. Maybe not. But if you think it accomplished your goal then that is fine.

[patrice]

90. Part of the problem is that there are too many sloppy grading models in use that don't allow a teach

er or students to estimate the effect of any given, or hypothetical, grading event. "Points-earned out of (more or less open) points-total" is one good, but very common, example of this.

[Raineyb]

83. Actually, the poster said they could pull up the grade. That does not mean that there's a

make up test to be taken. They can pull up their grade the old fashioned way, by busting their ass to ace the rest of the tests to make up for the zero. Based on the OP, the zero was given and the parents were insisting that the zero not be counted because apparently, the parents don't think that cheating should be punished.

[dkf]

93. In retrospect, isn't the person who got cheated off of kind of the victim?

Who WANTS to give their answers away? Weird.

[tammywammy]

96. They could have planned it

A friend "helping" another friend that didn't study by showing them their own answers.

[dkf]

98. You ever feel compelled to do that?

I'm kind of "tough beans" about it.

[tammywammy]

101. I didn't want to get caught cheating

Cheating is wrong so I wouldn't have done it. BUT there's a lot of things *I* wouldn't do that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't do it.

[LanternWaste]

120. I imagine many people do believe

"Weird."

I imagine many people do believe that standard statements of intent are weird. Weird

[enlightenment]

91. ooh. A favorite tactic in my college - but not in my classrooms.

Not anymore . . . I give them a choice; show up on test day and take the combination multiple choice/short answer/short essay test that the rest of the class takes . . . or miss test day and write a 4,000 to 5,000 word essay on a question I will give them, due one week from the day of the original test.

[CoffeeCat]

150. I'm not a teacher....but I would consider...

...making all of the students and parents sign a paper that you send home at the beginning of the year. The
paper would outline that all cheating would earn a 0 on a test or a paper.

That way, if the subject comes up during the school year--you have the paper signed by everyone--so no one (parents
or students) can feign ignorance about the rules.

Just a suggestion.

[Posteritatis]

52. Cheating = zero. This is a near-universal rule in schools.

If they were in college they would have gotten far worse, assuming it was a moderately competent college/professor.

[Raineyb]

66. They got the zero for CHEATING. as well they ought to. Cheating doesn't prove mastery

of anything unless you count mastering suppression of one's conscience.

[dkf]

108. Someone had to know the material for someone else to cheat off them.

[Posteritatis]

125. No they don't. (nt)

[Raineyb]

154. Well if they valued the work they did then the wouldn't have let the other student cheat off of them

It's one thing if a student decided to look over at their neighbor's paper and the student who was being cheated off of didn't know it. However, the situation that we're discussing is one where the student being cheated off of LET the other student look at their papers. This makes them an active cheater as well and as a result they got the zero as well.

[Fla Dem]

109. Cheating nullifies the result. The person abetting the cheater is just as guilty.

Doesn't matter whether the student has any mastery of the subject. The whole is suspect because of ill gotten answers. Do you nuance everything in our life or are you a lawyer? :hi:

[patrice]

49. Many semantic questions implied here: "know" "bad" "attitude" "sweet" etc. etc.

Legitimate questions, but unless and until the stake-holders actually have honest, sustained, committed discourse on those questions, you have to go on the best you as a professional can do under the circumstances (which, btw, have many and GREAT limitations not mentioned most of the time).

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. That's like saying an employee who steals from the employer shouldn't be fired

because he knows how to do his job well.

[Hello_Kitty]

132. Yes, it is.

The person who knows the material but shows it to someone who doesn't is undermining the whole purpose of grades.

[AwakeAtLast]

23. I guess they don't realize you can get kicked out of Harvard for cheating.....

:think:

[Froward69]

24. !!!

I always wanted to tell them to save up because if they weren't using that cash for Harvard later,they might be using it to post a bond somewhere.

:bounce: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :yourock: :rofl: :rofl:

[Missy Vixen]

25. These parents exist as early as day care

Once upon a time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, (think the early 80's,) I worked at a local child care center. I love kids, I just didn't want any of my own. One of the preschoolers wet the cot he took a nap on one afternoon. Three of his little friends were making fun of him, so I did what any other adult would do: Told them to stop it and apologize. Little did I know that another parent was observing this play out.

I got written up for this. It was "not okay" to tell these kids that they were being cruel, hurting their friend's feelings, and they needed to say they were sorry. I was told that the other parent insisted that I be fired. I wasn't the first person something like this happened to, and I definitely wasn't the last. Any attempt to correct the behavior of any of these kids was seen as a firing offense, and they were infants to four years old!

These little monsters are now in their twenties. I can only imagine what they turned out like. Then again, we see it daily in the media, don't we?

[patrice]

40. I pity those whose old-age will be managed by that cohort! Pay back time, mom and dad!!

[Missy Vixen]

59. We deal with kids like this on a daily basis now

Look at Mr. O'Keefe and his little buddies, for instance...

:eyes:

There were no consequences for them, and now we're reaping the whirlwind.

[patrice]

65. Bingo! "Do it because you can!!!" will turn into "Let it happen, because you can

get away with letting it happen" when it comes to Elder care in the near future.

The Boomers, for themselves and for future generations, need to create a REAL Revolution in Elder care in the U.S. for this reason.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

186. What a sucky story

I weep for the future. It's no wonder bullying is allowed to foster.

[patrice]

27. Yep. Been there; done that! People don't know the difference between "could" and "did".

No matter what happens, you're supposed to grade them for what they could do, rather than for what they actually did do.

The big cure-all, peddled by Administrators, is extra-credit work and re-tests. BULLSHIT. I never allowed either, but I would take any and all make-up work all of the way back to day 1 (at a falling rate of value, down to 50%) - AND - if you did outlined reading notes, you could bring them into my tests. You'd be surprised how few people did either make-up or reading notes.

And parents don't care about learning for learning's sake any more; it's all about chasing the God Almighty Buck, so a good state university, combined with a student's natural curiosity (as if any but a very few of them have that particular quality anymore !!) and love of learning that WILL result in a well educated individual, just will not do. It HAS to be a prestige university or all is ruined.

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

36. there is also a culture that essentially VALUES stupidity or looks down upon learning.

Some cultures really value education.

Others do not.

[patrice]

46. You are right. Generally speaking, it is considered a flaw to know too much, or, worse yet, to

think too much.

People feel like they are being put-down by words they don't know, or ideas they didn't think of, because they are vulnerable and that makes them defensive.

[postulater]

28. I know a teacher who is retiring after 30 years cuz he refuses

to have another chair thrown at him. He is not allowed to discipline children because the principal fears parents, yet the principal publicly says he is a strong disciplinarian. The teacher fears his female eighth grade students after being knocked on the ground, shoved repeatedly, etc. Sad.

[Are_grits_groceries]

29. The MOST important thing I learned

teaching was NEVER break up girls fighting. They will kill you as collateral damage. By the time they are mad enough to fight, no holds are barred. Guys kind of have rules at times. Girls will do anything.

If a fight started, I sent for help.

[dana_b]

81. man - that is so wrong

I can't imagine what that must be like. I was an aide in special needs classes but those are a totally different situation. The teacher did have the right ti restrain someone who was out of control and a danger to others.

In non-special ed classes the teacher can't lay a finger on anyone. What happens if/when a student who is not involved in a fight gets hurt accidentally? Will the parents of that student sue and say the teacher should have stopped it to protect their child?

My heart goes out to teachers today. They get blamed for EVERYTHING!

[bertman]

30. Zero was a temperature or the nickname for a Japanese plane in WWII.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

". . . like some educational version of Hester Prynne."

:yourock:

Rec.

[moc]

33. Parents who refuse to let their child take responsibility for his/her actions aren't doing that

child any favors. And school administrators/counselors who enable this kind of behavior are just as bad, imo.

To me, the MAJOR lesson parents need to teach their children is that every action they have has a consequence. If they don't have to experience their own consequences, kids will never learn to make wise choices. It's as simple as that.

[smoogatz]

35. Same shit now at the college level.

Especially at public universities. When I taught at UVa (also a public school, but highly selective) and Emory they had strict honor codes (a southern thing, maybe), and actually made students sign a pledge every time they turned in a paper or exam stating that they hadn't cheated and understood the penalties for cheating. Elite schools can do that sort of thing because they don't give a damn if you graduate or not--they can find a hundred more just like you any day of the year. Regional public Us are a different story--we're competing with a dozen other similar schools even for our middling students, and failing them means they won't be paying tuition next semester. Even students caught blatantly plagiarizing can only be given an F on that assignment, with some potential for wrist-slapping by the dean of students. No F in the course, no suspension, no nothing. At UVa or Emory it's an automatic F in the course, immediate suspension and probable expulsion. It's all about the economics.

On edit: I should add that even that "F" on the assignment on which the student blatantly plagiarized is subject to endless appeals, and faculty are generally required to prove not just that the student plagiarized but that they knew they were plagiarizing. Most of us let the borderline stuff go now with a warning--which means that only material directly lifted from the internet is subject to sanctions, and even then it has to be easily searchable, and has to constitute most or all of the completed assignment. We basically have no defense against the online term-paper mills, so the old-school term paper is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Perhaps not a terrible thing, that.

[Berry Cool]

144. You say you have no defense against the online term-paper mills, but

have you ever heard of a Web site called turnitin.com?

There's a whole industry dedicated to helping instructors ferret out plagiarized term papers bought from mills.

[WCGreen]

37. The problem I had in High School wan't that I was punished, I deserved

a lot of what I got, but that the standards for some where much more stringent than for others...

Big K&R...

[Are_grits_groceries]

41. If a teacher really tries to be fair,

the students generally will be okay with it. They will still bitch and moan, but that was a requirement as a student.

I had the 'star' basketball player in a class, and he was goofing around. I told him that the points he scored weren't being added to his tests. He straightened up a lot.

I really didn't care who you were.

[WCGreen]

107. great answer....

[BeatleBoot]

39. Here's how my Dad approached each upcoming school year with me.

He walked me back to school after classes only once a year, but each and every September.

We met with each of my teachers, the 3 of us, me, Dad and Mr or Mrs So-and-So.

And painstakingly I heard the same thing come out of his mouth with each teacher and it went something like this:

"Thank you for taking the time to meet with me and my son. So, here's the deal. If he ever messes up, let me know and I will deal with it swiftly and appropriately. Trust me, his behavior will change immediately. Now, if you do not tell me that he's messing up, and I find out about it from someone else, I will make sure both his behavior and your's will be dealt with swiftly and appropriately."

And let me just say my Dad is a loving and caring guy and a little rough around the edges, so he put it in his own way. But both me and my teachers got the message - loud and clear.

[LWolf]

63. Did it affect the choices you made in school?

To be honest, we crave parents who teach their kids manners, some self-discipline, and responsibility.

Yet, it's hard to know which parents to contact, and which contacts will make a situation worse.

There are parents who will defend their child's actions to the end, and who teach them that the best defense is a good offense...against the teacher.

There are parents who will listen and talk to their kids; we'll see a brief change and then go back to "business as usual."

There are parents who are strong partners and who make sure their kids are behaving appropriately and responsibly.

There are parents who apply inappropriate consequences that don't work well in the long term.

And then there are parents who may beat the crap out of a kid if they get a call from a teacher.

It takes time, and several contacts, to figure out what kind of parents we're dealing with. Unfortunately, for the parents at the bottom of my list, one time is one time too many. And we may not figure that out for awhile, unless there are obvious physical signs.

[BeatleBoot]

129. Not at all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. +1 n/t

[BeatleBoot]

130. You understand, then.

I love my old man.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. Sounds like mine. Miss him a lot. n/t

[BeatleBoot]

211. Mine's in hospital

On his way out.

Your Dad and mine are one of a kind, no?


Here's to two of the luckiest sons on the planet:

:toast:

[csziggy]

163. My teachers knew that my parents had the same attitude

We lived in a small town and some of the teachers had taught my Dad when he was in high school. By the time I was in their classes, they had also taught my older sisters. They knew my parents didn't put up with any crap.

Even when I got in trouble in school for stuff that was not my fault, I still got blessed out my my parents. They didn't use corporal punishment - just that "We're very disappointed in you/ we know you can do better" routine. Ad a clear message that whatever it was, no matter if it was my fault or not, it had better not happen again, ever.

[dsc]

43. sadly there is a whole new movement in grading that would forbid zeros to be assigned for cheating

so it isn't just obnoxioius parents anymore. My district is definately gearing up for this.

[noamnety]

124. Woah, I haven't heard anything about that.

That sounds insane.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. i quit my first teaching job due to meddlesome parents

and a principal who gave in to them. i explained that if the grade was changed one iota...if one jot or tittle was modified in my gradebook that he could find a new teacher for the following Monday. he thought i was bluffing. i got a call from the school secretary 15 minutes before class on Monday asking where i was...i tried to explain it to her. she just couldn't fathom it. i told her, just explain it to principal so-and-so...he knows the details.

i haven't looked back and am the happier for it.

sP

[librechik]

47. that sort of attitude is what gave us Bush and Cheney

stick to your guns and good for you!

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Cheating is cheating is cheating

Good for you.

And yes, Helicopter parents are a serious problem in the US... and it does not stop in Junior High either.

[Neecy]

200. And there are tons of high-tech ways to cheat now

I work part-time for an SMS text answering service. You wouldn't believe how many times during the school day we get texts with test questions. Math, science, literature, history - we answer them all. We also do their homework at night. I don't know what these kids expect out of life if they refuse to do any of their own work.

[Darth_Kitten]

57. People pamper their children too much nowadays.

People do practically anything and everything for their children. And yes, there will be parents will sacrifice everything for their little darlings until they are well into adulthood. It's disgusting actually. :(

You are hounded because some spoiled brat is a cheater? That's shameful. :(

[Raineyb]

60. I suspect that child has a future on Wall Street where you can tank

the economy and never suffer any consequences for your actions.

[Kber]

75. As a parent, I firmly believe that "safe" failure is a great teacher

As you pointed out, he was in the 9th grade and would certainly recover, provided he learned the right lesson, which was "don't cheat".

[Posteritatis]

78. 'Best' grade I ever got was a lousy one from a favorite HS teacher. (nt)

[Berry Cool]

146. Me too. I hadn't done enough work on a research paper but had fooled around in the library a lot

and my teacher gave me a C. My mother was shocked. The teacher explained why, and I realized that it was what I deserved. From then on I stopped fooling around in that class and got all As.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. My favorite parent excuse story:

The boy was in 4th grade and he walked up to a girl also in 4th grade and said "I want to fuck you". The teacher overheard him and he got suspended. Sexual harassment. One day.

Next day he shows up at school anyway. So we call and say he was suspended and has to go home. And mom says well she doesn't agree with the suspension. So we tell her there is an appeal process but he still has to go home.

So mom says "But that girl was Mexican and I told him he can't date Mexican girls!"

It was a long time ago but still makes me laugh. And I wonder if this little darling, who would be an adult by now, is still sexually harassing any Mexican girls.

[blaze]

95. Oh my!!!

I can't even find the words....

[donco6]

99. I've often tought about a sitcom for public ed.

But the problem is so many things are funny and not funny at the same time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. We should at least start a blog

So many stories . . . :rofl:

[Posteritatis]

127. I shun TV and I'd still watch such a thing, I think. (nt)

[Are_grits_groceries]

128. "Boston Public' was pretty good when it was on.

I still laugh about one episode. Loretta Devine played a teacher who got fed up with her history students one day when none of them knew any answers and had obviously not studied. She began telling them to go to the office when they couldn't answer. The whole class ended up in the office. Oh I wish........

They had a great episode about a transgender student running for prom queen. She got elected and the moment came when the dance with the King began. Everybody was holding their breath. The King tipped his head back, smiled a sweet smile, and held out his arm. It was touching and beautiful. They got it just right IMHO.

[wickerwoman]

167. LOL!

That reminds me of my worst youth soccer referee story:

These were fifth graders and there was one kid who felt he was being harassed by the other team and I just wasn't calling it (because it was normal groups of kids jostling for the ball stuff... no actual fouls).

So forty minutes into the game, he fouls another kid really blatantly, like obviously trying to hurt the kid, and I red carded him and threw him out of the game. He screamed "You bitch!" at me and stormed off the field.

Then mom comes running out shouting "Don't you call the ref a bitch to her face!"

Anyway, they go out to their car and I get on with the game, but at the next break, the coach and mom come up to say the kid is sorry and can he please come back into the game again. I said no. a.) He didn't apologize to my face... he sent his mom and b.) and red card is a red card. I can't rewrite the rules of soccer because so and so's mom says he's sorry for trying to kill another kid and then calling me a bitch.

The sense of entitlement some people have is just gobsmacking.

[frazzled]

92. How about a "contract" at the beginning of the year, to be signed by ...

both student and parent(s) or guardian. Among other possible provisions, it could state clearly that cheating of any sort, including showing one's answers to another student, would result in a grade of zero (or F, or whatever) on an assignment or paper. No exceptions to be made.

I realize not every parent would sign, and that it would be difficult to assign consequences to the student for them not doing so: but putting the rules out in the open in advance might help ... a bit.

It amazes me that parents intervene to this extent in their children's lives. And yes, it happens even at the college level. My husband was a Dean, and had to deal with these issues from time to time.

I believe the only time I ever intervened with a teacher was when my daughter was in seventh grade and was incredibly excited to begin French class. Her teacher had a particular methodology that she believed in firmly, which was to utilize only oral instruction for the first three months or so. No books or written materials--she believed that hearing a language was the best way to learn it, and that "seeing" the words only interfered. Well, fine (even though that applies almost exclusively to young children, not adolescents, who have already lost the capacity to learn in this way) ... but my daughter, an otherwise excellent student, is significantly hearing impaired. For about a month at the beginning of the term, she would come home with her assignments: she had to write down the vocabulary words the teacher was speaking in class, and study them, to be tested. She was extremely frustrated, and begged me to ask the teacher to write them down for her. Problem was ... since she couldn't hear and was unable to rely on her lip-reading skills (which related to English only) to fill in the auditory gaps, she was writing down gibberish. I spoke French fairly fluently, and I had no idea what these "vocabulary" words were supposed to be. So I wrote the teacher and explained the situation and asked if an exception could be made on account of the disability, and was roundly (and rather rudely) refused. It was a bit shocking, so I called the counselor to see what we might be able to do (a switch of class?). The counselor was absolutely outraged, called the teacher in for a meeting with us, and ordered her in no uncertain terms to provide some written assistance for my daughter. Fine, problem solved ... except the teacher gave her a really rough time the whole year. My daughter got consistent A's in the class once she was able to use written materials to help her ... but she felt really persecuted nonethless. Oh well, these things happen. None of us, teachers or parents, are perfect.

[noamnety]

115. I do something similar in my classes.

At the start of the year we have a short unit on plagiarism and cheating, with a quiz. That's done online so I have a permanent record that they've been taught what is or isn't cheating and what the consequences are. We go over case studies, they have to summarize penalties that real world students received for various types of cheating.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. I would think most districts already do this

Our conduct code is sent home day one and all the parents are supposed to sign it. That's pretty common practice.

[Odin2005]

97. These are the same parents that bitch if their brats are punished for bullying.

And these people, of course, vote for school boards and so nothing is done about bullying, lest they piss off parents.

[Mz Pip]

102. Good for you

for not giving in to this kind of ridiculous parent pressure. I was a high school counselor for 20 years and had to facilitate many many parent teacher conferences involving grade disputes.

Many of these occured in senior year when the kid was in danger of not graduating because he was failing a class. It was about a 50/50 proposition that in the end the teacher would cave in and the kid would graduate. The student would turn in a last minute paper, often written by the parent I suspected, and that would be that.

[Ex Lurker]

103. NCLB and the like are also part of the problem

fail/expel a kid, and it counts against the school, so you have some real disciplinary problems who should not even be there. I have a friend who teaches HS math. He had a borderline student who was being disruptive, he told the kid to sit down and shut up, and the boy challenged him, so he kicked him out of the class. The principal tried to get him to take the student back saying, "if you fail him now, you'll just have to teach him again next year." My friend's reply: "then that'll be his problem, not mine." He has his 20 years in already. He has a house painting crew in the summers and would make about as much doing that full time as he would teaching, so he's not inclined to put up with any BS from parents, students, or administrators.

[Dappleganger]

106. One major reason why I'm no longer teaching.

Perhaps I'm weak, but it only took two years of teaching language arts in PS for me to change careers.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

110. i only made it for one semester in PS before giving up

i was soooo disappointed.

sP

[krabigirl]

114. I think many parents are wayyy too hyper-involved today, to a fault. ro

Not that not being involved is good, either! There needs to be balance.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. It happens even on the college level

I had a group of four students who refused to recognize why I reprimanded them for handing in identical homeworks, same mistakes and all. Their excuse was that they "studied together."

"No," I said. "You just had one of you do the homework and the rest of you copied it without thinking."

They insisted that they hadn't, but the likelihood of four people making the same ten mistakes on a set of twenty questions was too astronomical to believe.

I tried to explain that "studying together" meant doing your own work first, comparing answers, and then talking about who might be right and why.

However, it was as if they couldn't process the notion.

[JCMach1]

164. Absolutely right, however when these cases get reported

(at least in my University) I make sure that they don't receive further consideration for reinstatement. Plagiarism/cheating is often a slap on the wrist, but I make sure when students apply for a final chance they know that I look at their whole record and I am NOT sympathetic with cheating.

And yes, I get the same parents in my office. They can't understand why little Ahmed shouldn't be allowed a final chance (after how many???)... Why he shouldn't be allowed to continue to study engineering despite the fact he/she can't pass remedial math and cheated in remedial physics.

I know I don't want that kid designing bridges!

Arg! This kind of stuff makes teachers and administrators heads explode!

[Blue_Tires]

118. great insight on entitlement-minded parents...

[Exultant Democracy]

119. I had a friend in high school like that kid. He did in fact go to Harvard.

He got away with murder in high school, things normal kids would get expelled for, but his parents were scary and rich.

[MadMaddie]

121. These type of parents do the most damage to their children

Witness the dumbass that was trying to bug the offices in Louisiana, what did his attorney father say? "It was only a youthful indiscretion", ummm the kid is 25 years old. It is painfully obvious he has never been held accountable for anything that he has done.

I am proud of you for sticking to the truth and not backing down from the simple truth. The kids cheated and the grade they received reflects that.

Maybe if mom and dad spend time studying with their child the child wouldn't feel as though cheating is the only way to pass.

[mistertrickster]

126. You did the right thing. There should be no tolerance for cheating.

When I was in 7th grade, one of the teachers had a "no talking" policy during tests and quizzes.

I got finished early on the first test and saw a pencil on the floor, so I asked the kid next to me (who was also finished) if that were his pencil.

The teacher heard me, and I got an F on the quiz. I didn't complain about it, I sucked it up. My parents lived with it also.

Moral--don't break the rules.

It's not that hard.

[Mari333]

131. helicopter parents

nauseating.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

133. It's kinder for the child to learn this now than after they get into Harvard.

Universities - at least here in the UK, and I assume in the US too - take plagiarism extremely seriously.

[Hello_Kitty]

135. I'm not generally a fan of zero tolerance policies but in this case they apply.

You get caught cheating red-handed, or by confessing to it, you get a failing grade. Those kids are lucky they didn't get expelled immediately. In many private schools or universities that's exactly what would have happened. Good for you for standing your ground.

[varelse]

137. I'd have been tempted to ask them to face the parents of the 99% of students

who were NOT caught cheating on that test, and explain why their own son deserved to get a grade better (or at least as good) as the one each of their kids worked to obtain.

[northofdenali]

140. Thank Higher Powers for teachers like you.

A student's failure to take responsibility for learning, and a parent's complicity in this failure, is the main reason our educational system is in the toilet.

I had teachers so tough that they were LOVED for it. Thanks, Mrs. Mears, Ms. Busby, Mr. Lonetti, Sister Mary Coleman, Sister Vincent, Father Malloy.

Kids have parents, teachers, mentors, and others BECAUSE they (the kids) are often wrong. A parent who treats Little Billy like a god is more likely to wind up with a demon.

[WileEcoyote]

141. Maybe both kids learned to become better cheats after your input

Either way you may have helped them both.

[The Doctor.]

145. Brilliant.

I love it. One of my closest friends is an English teacher in an intermediate school.

I never would have believed so many parents like this exist if she didn't vent with me once in a while.

[skorpo]

148. This situation is experienced by a large number of teachers every

year. You dealt with it perfectly. I taught young children for 40 years and this kind of thing came up often. So, I began to have a get acquainted meeting at the beginning of the school year. One important thing we covered was the students' need to develop responsibility and the necessity of allowing then to experience the consequences of their actions.

[Fire1]

149. As a colleague of mine so aptly put it, "They think they shit

ice cream."

[Bettie]

151. I would support giving my child a 0 in that situation

Really, I love my kids and I'll always stand up for them if they are right.

When they are wrong though, I am the first to make them take responsibility for their actions and help them understand that it was their choices that led them there.

It is my job as a parent to act as a partner to my kids' teachers, to support what they are trying to do in the classroom by encouraging my kids to always do their best.

It is hard these days to raise ethical children. My kids are still pretty young (3rd grade, 2nd grade, and a toddler), but my older two understand what is expected of them. They don't always succeed in behaving the way they should, but they make the effort and they take the consequences if they screw up.

What those parents did was harassment and totally wrong, but sadly, it goes along with a lot of what I've seen with other parents I've dealt with. They cannot accept that little Billy might be less than perfect in every way.

Sorry you went through that.

[Bette Noir]

152. I had the mirror image of that situation, when my kid was in middle school.

Her teachers asked for a conference with me, because my kid was failing. They gave me the plan they had worked out, in which they gave me a schedule for my doing her work for her. I told them that I thought she was old enough to do her own work, even if it meant she had to repeat the grade.

The teachers told her what I had told them. My daughter pulled her grades from Ds and Fs up to a B average in less than a month.

I was a mean mom.

[scentopine]

153. Wall Street Cheats, Rich Cheat on Taxes, Pols Cheat....

on constituents and their wives and the government. Sports figures cheat. Torturers cheat. Wire tappers cheat. People who start wars killing a million people and destroying entire nations cheat.

None of these cheaters have seen consequences for their cheating.

We have no real moral center from which to assert that cheating is "bad". Its about getting ahead, no matter how you do it. It used to be the case that everything is legal as long as you don't get caught. Now its simply everything is legal and if you believe in Jesus you are forgiven retro-actively (damn that is a sweet deal).

We are a culture that celebrates success as measured by 'As' and Cash. Doesn't matter how you get the goodies - its all about the bling.

With so much cheating and corruption going on - its simply a way of life and the problem is getting worse, more and more people won't understand why they should suffer the consequences of simple justice while everyone around them is beating the rap.

[Old Codger]

155. Good for you

:fistbump: :applause:

[liberalhistorian]

156. My parents were teachers for forty years and

they could tell a million stories like this, from the very beginning of their careers. And the administrators were even worse, not only doing nothing but backing the parents when they KNEW the parents were wrong simply because they were scared shitless of them. It's one of the things they hated most about teaching, dealing with both parents and chickenshit administrators.

[Iggo]

157. The grade for being caught cheating is a big fat zero.

The punishment is something else...detention, expulsion, stern reprimand, whatever.

But zero has always been the grade for someone caught cheating. Didn't this kid's parents ever go to school?

[eagertolearn]

158. I really believe that these type of experiences are stepping stones

to handling life. If the kid doesn't learn now that helping someone to cheat is not okay then he may never learn that. My middle duaghter is a senior this year. Last year our high school decided to change the grading system to a plus minus system which meant she had to get 93% in the class to get a straight A. She has gotten straight A's since 6th grade and finally realized that being a valedictorian might be a possiblity last year after struggling with Ap biology and history and coming out with an A. When the school decided to try out this new grading system my daughter and another student protested at the school board meetings (totally on her own she researched this). She thought that that grading system was not fair for those who took the hardest classes (and plus were very involved student playing sports, being a class officer and does community service including Teen Court constantly). Well they just blew those two girls off who protested. Many of the schools in Oregon who have + - grading systems still use the A = 90% b=80%. But our school decided not to. So when a college sees our A's they won't know that that means 93%. Well she got an A- in what was supposed to be one of her easier classes because she took a college english class (had to get 93% to keep her A) and was up finishing that paper and studied for the other class after until 2am. She told me right after she didn't do well on the test and thought it might bring her grade down. Last week when she realized he really did give her an A- she was very upset and wanted me to go talk to the teacher because other people had gotten their grades raised that way. But i wouldn't because that was the grade she got. But I still don't like the new grading system because they don't give A+ (she got an A+ in honors Chemistry). That would of kept her straight A status and she would of still graduated Valeditorian this spring. But our school does not reward academics because this new grading system was supposed to make the kids getting lower grades get more passing grades. It is kind of sad. But the greatest part of it all is our daughter is surviving this and it is not the end of the world..but she has worked so hard keeping her grades up. The greatest lesson is that she can have a great dissapointment like that and survive..she is ready for college now!

[Lithos]

161. your sig is the appropriate answer to the parents

meh...

[Maraya1969]

165. Seriously though I was in the 6th grade and taking a math class test and my friend just whispered

and pointed that I had mistake. I hadn't even asked for her help. The teacher saw this and she got int trouble.

That was around 35 years or so ago. I felt terrible for the other girl but damn if I was told I was cheating I don't know how I would have reacted.

Everything is not always black and white.

[howard112211]

168. It's a dog eat dog economy. Any flaw on your record may translate into joblessness.

So people are doing what is natural: Looking after their own.

If the system wasn't set up in a way that makes it hard for anyone less than perfect to do anything, people would probably stop
viewing teachers as a obstacle to be tossed aside.

[skepticscott]

172. Just tell them

that if their little darling is only in the ninth grade, and the work is already too hard for them, to the point where they have to cheat, they ain't getting into Harvard, no way, no how.

[The Wizard]

175. Dunce caps

and sitting in the corner work. Humiliation is a great teacher.
When a student or parent complains that the grade was too low because they always get "A" accuse them of plagiarizing.
I once told a female student she'd be truck stop lap dancing if she didn't work harder on her writing. Of course this was in a college setting where I had de facto tenure because I was working for low wages.

[liberal N proud]

176. For the parents of the cheater you should have told them

they should be grateful that their son/daughter was learning this in High School because the same action in college would mean expulsion.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

178. There are parents that I call the 'Rottweilers' and the others 'invisible'

we hardly ever have support of the principle or school system. Teachers are not held in high regard and they should be.

[ananda]

179. Time to switch to cooperative learning..

.. and get rid of the grading system!

[ctaylors6]

181. I remember letting some kids cheat off me in junior high school

I went to a HUGE public junior high school. I was shy and nerdy and was teased quite a bit. (Now they'd probably call it bullying.) The teachers would tell them to knock it off if the teasing happened in front of them, but otherwise it didn't matter when I complained about it. Mostly, just negative repercussions for my telling on them. Anyway, I remember vividly some older boys who were in my Spanish class. They started copying off my papers during tests. I tried to move my seat so it couldn't happen, but that didn't always work out. I knew they were copying off of me. I never told because they stopped teasing me when they got better grades. I was worried if I did tell and they got in trouble the teasing would get worse. I never actively coordinated with them, but I knew they were doing it and didn't tell. Junior high school was terrible. No one ever got caught.

It sounds like your situation was two people who coordinated the cheating ahead of time (maybe friends), especially if they both admitted it freely. I know cheating should never be tolerated under any circumstances, but I always feel a little sorry for the nerdy kid who lets people cheat off them because it makes life so much more bearable.

[Deep13]

184. Sweetums doesn't sound like Harvard material. nt

[BReisen]

187. As a Parent

I think two of the most important lessons to teach my kids are 1) to face the consequences of their actions and 2) to advocate for themselves. Always "saving" them now is setting them up for failure later. They won't have a clue how to deal with adversity. I have lots of conversations with my kids about how they might approach a teacher, but it's up to them to do the approaching!

BTW - I have some friends who I expect will be calling their kids' college professors at some point - can't wait to hear about the reaction to that!!

[mike_c]

193. I've seen exactly that situation at a major U.S. university....

Happened when I was in grad school. An undergrad working in our lab cheated on an assignment-- it wasn't a one-off event, but rather a pattern of behavior that lasted most of a semester because it was a research project assignment. She got caught, and the prof gave her an automatic F for the course (the course pretty much WAS the independent project). She faked participation, faked her data, the works.

Turns out she had applied to medical school or vet school-- I don't recall which-- and the F on her transcript was the kiss of death for admissions. Her parents hounded the prof for MONTHS, requiring administrative conferences, student judiciary proceedings, and unbelievable amounts of hassle. He related to me that her older brother called him more than once at home in the middle of the night to harangue him for "ruining her future." As though she were not the least bit responsible for her actions. IIRC, they ended up settling on the prof changing her grade to a B+ until after her med school application had run it's course, then changing it BACK to an F after she had been admitted to grad school. It wasn't enough to change it to a barely passing grade-- he had to change it to a good grade that would be acceptable to the med school admissions committee, and the university administration evidently SUPPORTED that hairball plan. The prof finally caved after months of meetings and hassle.

Determined family can make educators' lives miserable.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

198. my wife (and all the profs for this one student) was sued

by a student over grades...fortunately, she kept great records and had nothing to fear...but for the love of Pete! wtf is wrong with people...

sP

[DiverDave]

188. I hope my boys

(8 and 11) have a teacher like you.
I WANT to know if they are messing around,
We dont paddle, but loss of privileges does wonders in this day.
But, so far, I'm happy with the deportment of them AND their teachers.
edit to spell...god I'm so embarrassed, to a teacher yet...

[mike_c]

190. then they get to college and can't think their way past freshman year....

Yup, I know EXACTLY which little darlings you're talking about! Recommended!

[begin_within]

194. You were doing the kid a FAVOR by giving them a zero.

If you had let the kid slide after cheating, you would have been an enabler of their eventual downfall. The zero that the kid got was probably the most important lesson the kid learned during his/her school days. Hopefully the kid learned from it, and was not just shielded from it by the doting parents.

[proReality]

195. HA!

"He wasn't doomed, and I didn't require ZERO to be written on his forehead in indelible red magic marker like some educational version of Hester Prynne. They wanted to know if she had gotten a ZERO also.(facepalm ran through my mind)"

That cracked me up. I love it! Thanks for the first laugh of the day.

[Turk 182]

196. BRAVO FOR YOU! K&R

[undergroundnomore]

197. I feel your pain

As a matter of fact I'm going through something similar right now. This boy comes into my class gets on the internet and refuses to do his assignment even though I'm doing it step by step on the SmartBoard in the front of the room. He missed two days from school because he was suspended from another teacher's class. I had to write him up because he went off at me in class so that's two more days he's out. The mother is sending me email after email telling me how misunderstood her son is. Her son is being persecuted by me and I am the only teacher that he's having any trouble with. The truth of the matter is he is failing all of his classes and not just mine. He has been suspended by all his teachers in this school and his previous school. Obviously he needs help and I've discussed this with the Guidance Counselor but the mother is convinced it is all about the teachers being mean and not what her son is doing.

Unfortunately this is just an oft repeated scenario in school. I think this child has had something happen in his life because from what I understand two years ago he was a well-behaved student and was in the advanced placement classes. I think something has either changed at home, or he maybe he has a drug problem, or something else along those lines. By focusing on the mean school teachers the parents don't have to look at what is going on with their child.

[TomClash]

201. You're simply wrong here

Haven't you heard? Being educated means having the best record. It's not about creativity, critical thought, the joy of knowledge, the exercise of the mind, or learning. It's about the record; it must be neat, clean and smooth - for every child is on an upward arc to greatness and there shall be no bumps in the road.

In case you haven't guessed . . . :sarcasm:

[Heathen57]

202. We, as parents got along with any teacher

who would cooperate with us. Both our children were smart, but had real problems focusing, especially in noisy environments. But they were also typical children who would goof off if they thought that they could get away with it.

We always asked for (and often received) a meeting with the new teachers each year where we would discuss the problems our children had, what we did about it, and took suggestion from the teacher. In addition we would give them our cell # and e-mail (when it became available). Some years weekly progress calls and checking homework every night was the norm, but that is what it took.

Most teachers were happy to get the cooperation of the parents. Administration, especially in the High School, was a different story. Our son wasn't a follower in that he was a liberal, Non-Christian, and his girlfriend (later his wife) was pregnant at the same school. They labeled him a troublemaker and we were up at the school several times a month. The vice-principal would hide in her office when she saw us come in. It was bad enough that our son carried a binder with every court decision that the ACLU had been involved in that dealt with student's rights. Because of the admin's attitude, he dropped out and took the GED exam a year and a half before the would have graduated.

Both children, now adults, still keep in contact with the teachers that really helped them. Our daughter got her Associates degree last month and immediately phoned her special ed teacher. So that just shows that if you are helping the students to learn, there will be some who remember and are grateful for it. And the parents are as well.

[Autonomy]

203. Still beats uncaring parents.

Just sayin.

[Hello_Kitty]

209. That's not caring. Caring parents teach their children to be responsible.

Doing everything for your child and always taking their side no matter what may be well-intentioned but it's doing them a disservice.

[chemp]

204. And it gets worse in college

I am not a prof; I am a manager for a contract firm on the campus of a private college.
The kids are spoiled and the parents are worse.
There was a drinking incident where two students BROKE THROUGH A DOOR in order to gain access to the roof of their dorm so that they could drink up there. It was cold, a tad icy and one kid slid off of the roof. I do not recall how substantial the injury was. Campus security wanted both kids expelled. parents were called and they were pissed -AT THE SCHOOL. They demanded that this incident go away.
The parents have too much pull (and donation money)to deal with them. We have had vandalism, theft, rape, breaking and entering into woman's dorms, under-age drinking... you name it. School intercepts police if they are called; parents demand that the incident just go away.

Repulsive.

Love to hear stories when they leave college an the parents coddle them during work.

[DollyM]

206. There is no excuse for cheating, period!

They will grow up and learn that is is okay to cheat on their job, their taxes, their spouse, etc. A 0 is not the end of the world. I remember that I recieved one 0 in my life in high school from coming in just at the end of the bell. I was no more than 2 seconds late, (locker door was jammed and I was trying to get it open) but he had a firm policy of everyone in their seats before the second bell rang. I protested but to no avail. I was never late again though and I did survive and graduated with honors.

[Political Heretic]

210. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

Good qualitative post.

Much appreciated.