"We are a very conservative nation." Really?

[Ardent15]

I don't think this nation is that conservative. It's our government that is conservative.

I post this, because a very liberal person who I really respect said this right-wing talking point on another forum, and frankly, I was surprised to hear it.

We've had a conservative trend in our politics since Reagan got into office. But our nation isn't conservative, when you look at polls across the board.

[midnight]

1. I agree.

[ginnyinWI]

2. the big corps are conservative.

They've got money enough to sway the media their way, or at least get them to act like it's 50-50.

They are able to fool a lot of people into voting their way.

[Ardent15]

3. Exactly

We are a liberal/moderate majority at the tyranny of a conservative minority.

[LeftofU]

4. I think it's in what we do.......

and not what we wished we would do.

[Mz Pip]

5. I guess it depends

on where you live. The Senators from these small red states seem to wield a lot of power so it may appear that we are more conservative as a whole than we really are.

It's amazing that Max Baucus seems to have more power than Barbara Boxer, but that's the price we pay for Federalism.

[Ardent15]

6. My point is that the majority of our nation isn't conservative

They're either moderate or liberal in their beliefs.

[Mz Pip]

9. Hard for me to be

much of a judge on this. I live in the SF Bay Area and have for 40 years. From my perspective, it's pretty damn liberal but I have family and friends who live elsewhere who have a totally different take on it.

[HeresyLives]

7. I find Americans very conservative,

looking in from the outside as I do.

Jes sayin'.

[Ardent15]

8. Well, compared to many other nations yes America is

However, America isn't as conservative as Faux News would like it to be.

[HeresyLives]

15. 30% of the US is Faux news conservative,

altho more may be...just quieter.

[Fixed_Based_Operator]

17. The Rupert Murdoch bunch

Seem to be the loudest and have the most money, so it would make sense they get the most press.

Really, how many here donate as much money to our party and it's supporting organizations as most freepers do?

Be honest.

[HeresyLives]

18. TV evangelists are well-off too.

The average 'quiet' churches aren't, nor are secular humanists.

Youse gots to be a 'true believer' to donate what right-wingers do.

[anonymous171]

10. Americans have socially conservative views

But are, in general, economically liberal.

[HeresyLives]

16. Well...ah...I've never seen that.

Maybe your definition of 'economically liberal' is different.

[anonymous171]

20. Dislike of bankers/the rich (elites) = Leftist economic sentiment

The left rarely taps into this though, mostly because our politicians are owned by those very same bankers.

[HeresyLives]

22. Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Also very protectionist, and oddly enough, big on class distinctions.

[Tempest]

29. That's not what studies have shown

When asked questions of a social nature, Americans are mostly liberal.

Especially among younger Americans.

[anonymous171]

31. My generation was raised by corporate America. That is a no-brainer.

But their underlying sentiments and beliefs are still very leftist, even if they do not realize it.

[Hawaii Hiker]

41. I strongly disagree with that....Perhaps in the south social conservatism is the norm

but the northeast & west coast are definitely not socially conservative...

If anything, we are more socially liberal now than ever before, & this is on MANY issues (abortion, gay marriage, views on pornography, censorship, etc.)....

[trotsky]

44. I think you have that reversed.

Survey after survey shows that by far the vast majority of Americans are pro-choice, in favor of environmental protections (even at the expense of business), support strong business regulations, favor universal healthcare, yada yada.

They become "economically conservative" when questions are asked in general: "Do you think taxes are too high?" and other such questions out-of-context.

[JerseygirlCT]

49. I don't agree at all

Perhaps it's geography. But I'd say the converse - socially tolerant and economically conservative.

[ThomCat]

11. No, I think the majority of people are definitely conservative.

When you take into account the presence of all the businesses in "our nation" that have more of a voice than we do, and business tend to be very conservative, then that is also going to swing the balance far, far to the right.

So with all the people who really are conservative, and all the businesses that are becoming the real citizens, it's hard to see that the liberal people account for anything near a majority. Not even close. :(

[hfojvt]

12. Why would a liberal nation keep electing conservatives?

You admit that the government is conservative, if the nation is so liberal then why didn't Kucinich, or even Edwards walk away with the Democratic Primary? From looking at the votes it seems like even the Democratic Party is very conservative.

[anonymous171]

13. The GOP has better marketing. That is all. The nation will believe whatever we tell it to believe

[hfojvt]

28. but the marketing is very deep, that is what makes the nation conservative

certain conservative pieces of conventional wisdom are taught from childhood, and conservatives from both parties use them to further their marketing.

A couple of examples would be
1. belief that USA is the greatest country ever
2. belief in the free market
3. distrust of government/authority
4. dislike of taxes

It's an easier sell to sell a tax cut than it is to sell a tax increase. I think their marketing fits better with the 'conventional wisdom' because the conventional wisdom is conservative at its core.

You seem to be saying that the country is liberal but also wishy-washy because they will abandon liberal principles if they see enough marketing.

[anonymous171]

30. If the conservatives can use them, so can we.

The only "conservative pieces of conventional wisdom" that needs to be directly challenged is #2. The rest could be used to gain support for progressive ideas.

For example, Americans' distrust of government/authority could be used to rally them against the "economic royalists."

[Ardent15]

14. Media propaganda? Campaign finance? Voter cynicism?

Just throwing those out there.

[RC]

42. Because they lie to us. They run from the middle, then go way right once in office.

Worked for bu$h 4 times. Obama seems to have done the same thing. We'll see.

[Swamp Rat]

19. Most Americans believe in Liberty, which makes them liberals by default.

Conservatives believe in radical changes that limit (and completely eliminate) our constitutional freedoms while giving those same rights to corporations while lying to the less educated about their true agenda and intentions.

So, no. This nation is hardly conservative, save for the few crooks at the top of the economic ladder, and the Joe Sixpacks (whom they rob and deride in closed quarters) that consistently vote against their own interests (about 20% of the total voting population).

[HeresyLives]

21. Right-wingers believe in liberty to a fault.

And consider liberals a big-govt, big-brother crowd.

I realize this doesn't conform to reality, but it is the prevalent belief.

[Fixed_Based_Operator]

23. You have to admit though

we give the repubes alot of ammunition to use against us.

[HeresyLives]

25. They are big on 'embroidering ' stories

to the point of unrecognizability, and people tend to go with the embroidery. It's more colorful than just plain facts.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. "We" who, paleface? -nt

[Swamp Rat]

24. Yes, because they are simply ignorant people.

They do not believe in Liberty because they do not understand it nor do many really want it.

The concept of liberty scares them, so that is why they like to be told what to do by 'authority figures', especially ones who act tuff and pompous on Fux Noise and Clear Channel.

For example, when Bush cancelled Habeas Corpus, the Conservatives did NOTHING to protest his actions nor did they try to restore it. Conservatives cheered the rending of the U.S. Bill of Rights and Amendments (in the name of catching Osama Bin Laden... where is he?), thus allowing Big Republican Government much more power to rule their lives.

[HeresyLives]

27. You have a different concept of 'liberty' than they do.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. No, they believe in their *own* liberty

That's as far as it goes.

[sandnsea]

26. When conservative = racist, bigot, sexist

Then yes, America is quite conservative.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Really

Look at things like church attendance, attitudes to abortion and homosexuality, the death penalty, gun control, and so on in relation to Western Europe. America is an extremely conservative country by most objective standards. A lot of this has to do with the historical fact that a good many of Europe's more fanatical religious nutters came to America upon a time and shaped the culture.

[NuttyFluffers]

33. true v. Western Europe, but comparing w/ Eastern Europe or the Middle East, we're pretty liberal

and we're also very cosmopolitan as well.

that said, we're pretty consistently liberal as well. Western Europe only got this liberal after two world wars and the collapse of their empires. speaking of which, this currently spate of "conservatism" most like is a final symptom of a declining empire than anything else.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. It's not especially useful to use the Middle East or Eastern Europe as a point of comparison.

Neither has what one could call a democratic tradition. And the seeds of European liberalism were sown in the workers' movements of the nineteenth century...the Chartists, the 1848 revolutions, and so on. America by comparison never really had an effective socialist movement.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. +1

[opihimoimoi]

34. If CONSERVATIVE = STOOPID...then I agree

[cali]

36. actually, the majority of polls do not support you.

I think we are a more conservative country than many here want to face.

[quaker bill]

38. This is quite true

Conservatives out number liberals 2:1 in virtually any poll I have seen for the last 20 years. It is only when you throw the leaners in on both sides, that the race becomes remotely competitive. Relatively few folks lean conservative, for most it is thankfully an all or nothing proposition. A good number of folks lean a bit right on money issues and left on almost anything else.

This is why Clinton, Dean, Obama, and almost anyone else among the Democrats with a serious voice have been saying "you can trust us with your money". Not only does it benefit from being true but it gives these economic conservative - social liberals better reasons to lean in our direction.

How far right this country can turn was seen in Bush's 85 percent approval numbers after 9/11, and that even after torture was widely reported, he could still win an election.

[Orsino]

37. Yes.

We worship our wealthiest citizens, embrace discrimination, capital punishment and endless wars of conquest, and will sell out just about anybody for the sake of our security.

I've seen some signs of evolution, but we are still pretty conservative, and frankly, not to be trusted.

[mmonk]

40. Yep, that is it. We are a people trapped in a conservative system.

[Lyric]

43. The problem is conflating "nation" with "electorate."

The two are not the same. The nation includes people who, either by law or circumstances, cannot or do not vote. Some people in this category include the poor who cannot afford ID documentation, the homeless who have no address at which to register, the working class paycheck-to-paycheck people who have lost all sense of political efficacy and who don't bother voting anymore, people of all classes who are too bored/jaded with politics to be bothered to vote, teens and children, elderly and disabled people who are too frail and/or unhealthy to vote, women whose dictatorial husbands (usually fundie) won't let them vote (at least not for the candidates they choose), and certain convicted felons. These people all have to live under the laws WE make for them, but they (either by choice, oppression, or law) don't contribute their voices to the lawmaking process. It's easy to forget about them, to dismiss them with a haughty "If you don't vote, then I don't give a damn about your opinion" line, but they are still part of our nation.

The electorate, on the other hand, consists largely of people who (1) have at least some sense of political efficacy (often related to higher education), (2) have enough job security to be able to take time off for the polls, (3) have a stable home at which they can register to vote, (4) are well-off enough to afford document copies and a secure place to keep vital documents (fire-safe, file cabinet, even a plastic storage tub under the bed), (5) are white, and/or (6) are non-white but have somehow been fortunate enough to never be unfairly targeted by the police, have never be desperately poor enough to steal, and have never been a victim of a racist voter purge in a swing state. That last category grows smaller and smaller every year, sadly.

The electorate is (for the most part) white, middle-class, and tilted slightly right. The nation, on the other hand, is most certainly left. If every single adult American citizen voted in every election, the Republican Party would practically cease to exist in any meaningful way. Make no mistake--the right-wing has an enormous stake in maintaining some ugly social ills as norms. It is only be perpetuating social evils that they can win and keep power.

[DCBob]

45. You can't broadbrush this county or even individuals with liberal/conservative andymore..

Most people are a mix of both.. I think I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

[Odin2005]

46. People are liberal on the issues, but are brainwashed to think of themselves as conservatives.

[JerseygirlCT]

48. It's also about how you define the terms

To the right "conservative" means radical - authoritarian, small government except when it affects peoples' individual rights. To the right "liberal" now means what conservative used to mean to many - at least here in the northeast.

They've skewed the spectrum so hard right that the terms mean little any more when coming from someone on the right.

[rucky]

50. Compared to the rest of the world's democracies, we certainly are. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

52. Unless one accepts the simple truth that we are there is no path forward

The statement that America is a conservative nation with a conservative electorate is as obvious, testable, verifiable, flat-out TRUE statement as a person can make.

To argue otherwise requires arbitrarily redefining words and ignoring all reality.

Americans describe themselves as conservative, vote reliably for conservatives from both parties and we have national priories and policies to the right of just about any other first-world nation.

What traditional measure should we be using? Religion? We are the most religious first-world nation. Monarchy? He have the strongest executive of the first-world nations. Nostalgia and sentimentality? We own those categories. Love of the military? We transcend every first-world nation in that respect in terms of both money and sentimentality. Freaking out over change? Sounds like us...

This is a VERY conservative nation within our category.