Circumcision ring cuts AIDS risk in Africa

[Lil Missy]

Device must be worn for 10 days, but solution is cheap and mostly painless

The most powerful force against AIDS in Africa may be circumcision, a procedure that's easily done in the developed world. But it's a challenge on a continent where there are too few medical workers and a reluctance by men for cultural reasons and fear of pain.

Now there may be a new weapon in the arsenal — a ring-shaped device that is mostly painless and requires less time for health workers.

The Chinese-developed device, the ShangRing, has been tested in a small study in Kenya and a larger test is set for later this year. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation will invest about $4 million into studying the device.

The drawback is that men must wear the ShangRing for 10 days, but at least one man who tried it found it surprisingly painless.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35407224/ns/health-aids/

[Christa]

1. No no no!!

This is nonsense!

The most powerful and not even always 100% is wearing a condom. Circumcision cannot stop the AIDS virus, in no way, shape or form.

[cali]

2. Many scientists disagree with you.

What is your background that qualifies you to know so absolutely that they're wrong?

[aquart]

4. A terror that someone will rip off his teeny tiny turtleneck.

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. That's a crass comment

I hope you just forgot the :sarcasm: tag.

[aquart]

29. I don't use "tags." I believe the language to be adequate.

I'm sorry you require signposts to tell you what you are reading.

Although I was being, at the time, perfectly sincere.

[nosmokes]

53. funny though

[11 Bravo]

25. LOL may be occasionally overused ...

but in this case it fits . I just spewed all over my keyboard!

[Christa]

11. Read here -

Studies from Africa

A number of studies from Africa point to the fact that the regions of Africa most troubled with HIV infection tend to overlap with the regions where male circumcision is rare. However, this does not imply a causal link: If the same argument were applied to the industrialized world, one would note that the United States has a high circumcision rate, and also has the highest prevalence of HIV.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/

Male Circumcision and the HIV/AIDS Myth:

As a continent, Africa has the highest percentage of circumcised men, over 60%. Africa also has -- as most people know -- the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS, with South Africa housing the world's largest HIV-infected population. In countries like Nigeria and Kenya, (the latter being one of the countries where the study was conducted) over 80% of males are circumcised, yet they contain the second and fourth largest HIV-infected populations in the world respectively.

Among industrialized nations, the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS is in the United States, which has the 10th largest HIV-positive population in the world. And yes, the USA also ranks number one among all industrialized nations in its number and percentage of circumcised men: 56% as of 2003, compared to countries in Europe, where circumcision is markedly less common -- as is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/male-circumcision-and-the_b_249728.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. That CIRP page draws some doubtful conclusions from what it cites

For instance, its references to a 2003 Cochrane review are:

Cochrane Review

The Cochrane Library established a protocol for the review of the HIV/Circumcision literature. That review notes the cultural bias of circumcision researchers. that review also expresses concern about the negative effects of circumcision on efforts to effect behavioural change.59 The systematic review reported a general failure to control for confounding factors and, in addition, found insufficient evidence to recommend male circumcision to control HIV infection and transmission.68

Confounding factors to the study of the relationship of HIV infection to male circumcision include:
female circumcision
"dry sex"
genital ulcer disease
other STDs
unsafe medical practices
viral load
religion
culture
education, occupation, and socio-economic status
condom use
migration status
age
location of the study

The Cochrane Review found that the existing studies fail to control for most of these confounding factors so the evidence produced is unreliable. After more than forty studies over a span of time greater than a decade, the Fink hypothesis that circumcision somehow reduces HIV infection remains unproven. Ntozi recognizes that this idea that circumcision can reduce HIV infection is only a hypothesis, but would like to see a controlled study carried out to see if circumcision would reduce the tragic epidemic that continues to rage in Africa.34

From time to time the popular press reports that one doctor or another recommends circumcision to reduce HIV infection. While it may be their personal opinion that circumcision prevents HIV transmission, since this has not yet been conclusively demonstrated, these opinions cannot be considered informed medical opinions. Frequently, the news item is based on a single study rather than the complete body of the medical literature. It would be foolish to base public health policy on such reports.

The conditions in Africa are very different from those in the developed world. It would be wrong to apply findings from Africa to the developed nations.

The Cochrane review of the medical literature "found insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men."68

...

The Cochrane Systematic Review finds insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men.67

And yet that report says:

...
Reporting of methodological quality was variable across the three trials, but overall, the potential for significant biases affecting the trial results was judged to be low to moderate given the large sample sizes of the trials, the balance of possible confounding variables across randomised groups at baseline in all three trials, and the employment of acceptable statistical early stopping rules.

Authors' conclusions

There is strong evidence that medical male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men by between 38% and 66% over 24 months. Incidence of adverse events is very low, indicating that male circumcision, when conducted under these conditions, is a safe procedure. Inclusion of male circumcision into current HIV prevention measures guidelines is warranted, with further research required to assess the feasibility, desirability, and cost-effectiveness of implementing the procedure within local contexts.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html

Which makes me think that CIRP are cherry-picking their quotes, because their characterisation of the Cochrane Review looks nothing like its Authors' conclusions.

On edit: I see what's happened - the CIRP page (last updated February 2009) is quoting the Cochrane Review from 2003. The review was updated (last updated in 2008), when the decent trials had been done. But the CIRP page has no mention of the new conclusions from the new trials. So it's out of date.

[Christa]

40. What about the other link?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/male-circumcision-and-the_b_249728.html

by
Ali A. Rizvia, a Canadian writer, physician, and musician?

Also:

The African studies are properly called "Cargo Cult Science". Intentionally made biased for results wanted. Years have gone by since and still no medical organization in the world has adopted these shameful studies and most likely never will. Providing clean running water will cut HIV infections in half, providing antiviral therapy will stop it. Circumcision is all about power over others. We have to ask why is the WHO, UNAIDS, PSI (Population Services International who had roots in eugenics) WHY? uptake these flawed studies as factual and beneficial? WHO continues to lose credibility in the world. See Wawer on youtube Circumcision & HIV and also Dean Edell on HIV.

Check David Wilton's www.CircumcisionAndHIV.com for complete coverage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Meh - Huffington Post = unscientific mumbo-jumbo

They're not worth reading on any scientific topic. Anyone who writes for them must ask themselves why they associate themselves with purveyors of New Age nonsense.

Cochrane reviews, on the other hand, are impartial evaluations of all the available studies in an area, and highly regarded in the medical community. So that use of the 2003 Cochrane review was worth reading. However, it turns out to have been superceded by later reliable trials, that the new Cochrane review says are significant.

[AngryAmish]

43. The Huffington Post is the #1 site for medical and scientific news on the Internet

For example, Jenny McCarthy posts her wisdom there. And we should always get our science news from a titty-model.

[Christa]

16. A little common sense goes a log way, cali. nt

[cali]

19. doesn't go very far in science

not without testing it.

[Christa]

20. You really should give more attention to your signature. nt

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Christa]

23. It is called

Psychological projection or projection bias - go look it up.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Christa]

35. Your reply reminds me

of the people in Africa who believe one can get cured from the virus by having sex with virgins.

Will you let your son/husband/brother have unprotected sex with someone infected with the AIDS virus just because he is
circumcised? C'mon, be honest now.

The virus is so small that not even a condom is 100% protection, and you want me to believe a CLEAN PENIS is enough protection? Try thinking Cali, it doesn't hurt.

Go, read your signature again.

[Christa]

37. And please

do not call me honey.

Save it for your loved one. I am not your honey.

[Touchdown]

54. Funny you should mention Climate science deniers.

Since the majority of pro-circ crackpo...er "scientists are pro-circumcision before they even attempt these studies. If you look at the history of Auvert, Bailey, Schoen, etc. you could easily see their bias when it is laid out.

There is a group called "Project Abraham" who intends on circumcising the world. They are run out of Israel. These "scientists" of yours belong to them.

Other, many more scientists think circumcision is bunk as to a cure or panacea to anything. They just don't get heard in the American Medical Press... which is as biased toward circumcision as Fox News is to Republicans.

You want real science on this issue, you have to readThe BRitish Journal of Medicine or from The Australian Medical press. Being a for profit health care system, the American one is looking out for the money, and is willing to butcher anybody's baby to get it.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. "a reluctance by men for cultural reasons and fear of pain"

See, right there, you know it's propaganda. Why didn't they cite the fact that men LIKE their foreskins at least as much as their fingers, perhaps more so.. as in my case!

I often wonder why Americans are so fascinated by circumcision.

[cali]

7. seems to me that you're the one fascinated by this topic./

[Confusious]

30. I'll second that

I was in my 20's before I even knew what a foreskin was, and didn't think once about whether or not I missed it.

Men who have a "I'm missing some of my manhood" complex got some real issues that need therapy, not a little bit of skin.

[Touchdown]

55. You two are hilarious.

It always amazes me that cirumcision is "no big deal", until somebody comes along and suggests it not be done... Then people like you throw coniption fits, and junk science from a biased American publication bent on keeping their profits, and sharp scalpels.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Confusious]

71. delete

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laconicsax]

8. Hmm...I wonder what else would be a more effective use of $4 million in the region.

Maybe promoting condom use?
Maybe education?

Nah...spending $4 million on a circumcision device is probably a better way to deal with the AIDS epidemic. After all, why invest in a consistent, reliable method of halting the spread of a disease when you can spend money on a significantly less effective method.

[Scout]

9. yeah, you are brilliant! no one has thought of education and promoting condom use!

and you see how well those things have worked to halt the spread of AIDS!

:eyes:

[laconicsax]

34. They're far more effective than circumcision.

Look at Uganda--there was a big push to control the spread of AIDS with condom use and education and it worked.

But hell, why not invest in circumcision. It might result in a slight decrease in the spread of HIV. Might and slight are good enough--after all, it's only an epidemic.

[anigbrowl]

105. Circumcision is permanent

You don't have to do it over again for each new sexual partner a guy has, so it can help reduce new infections in addition to condom use. It's not an either/or proposition as you imply.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

56. They worked pretty damn well when used consistently.

The problem is that, for religious reasons, they have usually not been.

The only advantage of promoting circumsision over promoting condoms is that there will be fewer complaints from religious nutjobs.

[Scout]

60. i guess i must always remember to use the :sarcasm: thingy

no one said to NOT promote condom use and no one said NOT to use education.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. I wish that were true.

"No-one in this thread", sure.

But, sadly, a large part of the reason AIDS has spread so far in Africa is that a great many people, including the Pope and George W Bush, have said exactly those things...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. The Power

The power that some attribute to the use of condoms reminds me of the power that some attribute to abstinence. Many people in the throes of passsion forget about abstinence and condoms.

[Quantess]

66. Are you serious? I can't tell.

You do know that condoms are very effective at preventing HIV, as well as many other STDs... but that the Pope is a very powerful antagonist in this situation?

Edit: Okay, okay, you were sarcastic. I get it now! :)

[Confusious]

33. They promote condom use

They do education.

The problem continues.

It's not that it's going to stop the epidemic. It's that they're trying everything they can to put the breaks on so they can stop the epidemic.

[laconicsax]

39. Condom use and education worked in Uganda until the abstinence-only crowd took over.

Look it up. Uganda was able to achieve dramatic results by aggressively pushing condom use.

[Confusious]

70. I know

But what worked in one place is not working in other places so this might help.

Or just sit on ours hands?

Someone else said 40% of boys get infected due to circumcision. Could that be the reason?

[anonymous171]

10. How exactly does circumcision prevent the spread of AIDS?

[Christa]

13. Excellent question

I dare any circumcised man to have unprotected sex with a HIV carrier. It is just stupid.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. The Passive Partner Be It Female Or Male Is At Much Greater Risk

The literature fairly well establishes that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I Think It's For The Benefit Of The Active Partner For Lack Of A Better Word

The foreskin provides an active envirnment for the bacteria to lurk.

[Lyric]

32. My guess is that

the glans of an intact penis is soft, wet, mucous membrane tissue--something that a virus can pass through more easily, whether because of the wet texture, or because the glans skin is far more delicate, making it easier for microscopic tears and splits to form during sex, which the virus can then pass through. Think of the skin of your inner lip, or the skin of a woman's inner vulva/vagina.

The glans skin of the circumcised penis is tougher and firmer, more like our ordinary external skin, and far less delicate in texture. Viruses would probably have a much harder time getting through than they would via mucous membrane tissue.

My issue is that I can see both sides of this argument. On one hand, it doesn't seem fair to change a baby's body without giving him the chance to make up his own mind. On the other, it seems perfectly logical that mucous membrane would present a greater disease risk than firmer, thicker skin, so the study results make a lot of sense to me, and I can see why parents would want to get the procedure done when less tissue (and less pain) is involved, before a child is old enough to remember it later. In the end, I think it's really nobody else's business. There are good enough reasons both for it and against it that I don't think ANYONE has a corner on the Morality of Circumcision market. However, I do admit to feeling a bit more sympathy for the pro-choice crowd, because I am never comfortable with people who take extremist positions--namely, that there is NEVER a logical or understandable reason to circumcise, and that ALL circumcision of children is some form of terrible abuse. I just don't buy that at all, because it completely discounts the study results, which make perfect rational sense.

[joshcryer]

92. Lack of clean water for hygine.

[xchrom]

12. My life would be empty without circumcision threads. Nt

[CTyankee]

47. Me, too! I'm sitting here with a small bag of Smartfood's white cheddar popcorn

(honest!). Haven't had one for a while. Miss 'em.

:popcorn: literally!

[Warren DeMontague]

14. It's not time for circumcision threads, yet.

Clearly, the post-superbowl anti-Patriarchy axe grinding needs to wind down, with or without the obligatory porn threads. Then we've got to get through the threads on kids and how people shouldn't breed (that's already started, but it's scheduled to really get in gear later this week) ... after that, I see breastfeeding, PETA, smoking bans and maybe the Olive Garden.

Then, and only then, can we start up with circumcision, again. Get in line!

[CTyankee]

48. But, but where are the natural childbirth vs. medicated childbirth threads?

We have LOTS more circumcision threads than we do the childbirth threads. Sexism on DU!!!

[Withywindle]

68. "Natural" is good for women.

But bad for men.


Apparently.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. And here, I thought this was about some sort of organized crime or vigilante group.

:shrug:

[Quantess]

18. No condoms?

Condoms...nah, that's just too much to ask. :eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

21. Well, wait a minute. They're "asking" these guys to cut off part of their dingus.

You had one guy say it was "surprisingly" not painful. Surprisingly.

I think a lot of things are at play, here, but eye-rolling selfishness may not be one of them.

[Quantess]

27. Is that sarcasm?

"eye rolling selfishness"? LOL. Tell that to the Pope. :)

[lazarus]

28. hooray for genital mutilation

Condoms are the most powerful force against AIDS. Uganda had an excellent condom/education program, and their AIDS rate plummeted. Then the fundies in Congress got the funding switched over to abstinence, and the AIDS rate has skyrocketed.

Why are people so willing to perform genital mutilation, anyway? Just wash. I didn't have all my teeth pulled to avoid cavities, I brush my teeth.

[Christa]

36. Hurray for common sense!

Tell it to Cali, she believes circumcision is the cure


:eyes:

[laconicsax]

38. Do you ever notice?

These threads always have the same tired arguments based on faith alone. When given the choice between condoms with proven results and surgery with a possibility of less effective results, some people will choose surgery as long as it isn't for them.

How many circumcised men advocating circumcision as a means of controlling the spread of AIDS would willingly have unprotected sex with someone they know to be HIV positive? How many are hypocrites?

Edited to add:
How many women advocating circumcision on as a means of controlling the spread of AIDS would willingly have unprotected sex with a circumcised man they know has just had unprotected sex with an HIV positive partner? How many are hypocrites?

[Christa]

41. I wish I could recommend your reply. nt

[laconicsax]

44. Then head over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7720784

[Christa]

45. Done!

let's see if any of those so pro-circumcision show up there.

[laconicsax]

46. Thanks.

I doubt it. Most people don't like to call themselves out for complete hypocrisy.

[Mass]

49. Did you notice the article says this does not mean you should not wear condoms.

Somehow, there is a correlation between the two, who may be linked to a number of reasons. It does not seem from the article they know the reason, may be better access to information? Who knows?

Experts are also concerned men who get circumcised will mistakenly think they are immune to HIV. That was the case for Samson Agalo, a bicycle taxi operator from Kisumu, Kenya, who recently had a circumcision — and has been having sex with multiple partners ever since. "After going for the cut, you don't need condoms," he said.

[Scout]

50. of course not, then they wouldn't be able to rant!

and start new threads about their little rant...

[Mass]

51. This article is inept. It tries to show causality where there is none explicitly found.

Understanding the reasons is more important than spending money promoting something when people do not know why it works.

[timtom]

52. I swear, at first glance, I thought this was about

an illegal gang of moyls

[NM_hemilover]

59. "the Onion" is what I thought

[Touchdown]

61. Boys turn into men with a knife to their penises in Africa.

After completing the circumcision rites, Mtirara will dispose of all his old clothes, a symbol of beginning his new life as man.
But if he fails to complete the course or ends up in hospital, he will live with the stigma of not being man enough.
More than 200 boys have died from botched circumcisions in the last 15 years, and 90 have lost their penises, according to the department of health.
"This is a very large number, given the fact that these deaths are concentrated in one region," said Sizwe Kupelo, spokesman for the Eastern Cape department of health.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6827077/South-African-boys-dying-to-become-men-through-traditional-circumcision.html

A sixteen-year-old Kenyan boy is being treated in hospital after losing part of his penis in a circumcision ritual.
He suffered the accident during the Luhya people's circumcision festival in western Kenya when the circumciser's knife slipped.
Reporters say traditional circumcision often comes in for criticism because of the health risks but is a longstanding part of the Luhya culture.
Doctors say he is in a stable condition but may require reconstructive surgery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7537882.stm

Shocking photos of a young Kenyan boy undergoing a bloody circumcision ceremony show the 12-year-old being cut with a rusty knife.
The youths are not allowed to show any pain as the ancient ritual, which is meant to mark their transformation from boys into men, is performed.

The practice is part of the culture of the Bukhusu tribe in Western Kenya. There are approximately 900,000 members of the tribe and they lead a relatively modern lifestyle, but still indulge in the ancient circumcision ceremony.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2008/08/13/young-boy/circumcised-with-rusty-knife.html


Forced circumcision reported in Kenya

LIMURU, KENYA — When men with machetes and axes chased Paul Otieno from his home here, they wanted more than his belongings. They wanted to cut off his foreskin.

"They were shouting, 'If we don't kill you, we'll cut your private parts,' " Otieno, a 25-year-old mechanic, said of the attack Sunday. "They were just shouting, 'Kill! Chop them all!' "

In Kenya, circumcision is a rite of passage for male members of most tribes. The Luos, however, do not practice it. In the recent tribal violence triggered by a disputed Dec. 27 election, circumcision checks have been conducted by roaming gangs of killers hunting for Luos. And the threat of forced circumcision has been used to terrify Luo men.

The number of such assaults so far appears small. The hospital here in Limuru, 30 miles northwest of Nairobi, confirmed that two cases of forced circumcision were treated after Sunday's violence, which saw members of the larger Kikuyu tribe evict hundreds of Luos from their homes. One case involved an adult, the other a 4-month-old.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/09/world/fg-circumcision9








An edict by the king of the Zulus to bring back circumcision for thousands of teenage boys is causing alarm in South Africa, amid record numbers of deaths from the traditional manhood ritual.

On Tuesday, at a meeting called in Durban by the government of KwaZulu-Natal, traditional leaders in the province will outline how they wish to implement King Goodwill Zwelithini's decision to reintroduce circumcision 200 years after it was scrapped by King Shaka. But health officials working with South Africa's second largest tribe, the Xhosa – who never gave up the practice – say the move could put thousands of lives at risk.

"We have had a disastrous year, with 80 deaths, including two suicides," said Sizwe Kupela, a Xhosa who is health spokesman for the Eastern Cape. Each year, 50,000 Xhosa boys descend on the vast province to undergo the secretive ritual – including circumcision by a "traditional surgeon" and one month's seclusion in nakedness. "We see horrific cases of rotting penises, septicaemia and inadvertent castrations," he said. "Others die from dehydration and hypothermia. HIV is spread because the same knife is used on large groups of boys. My personal view is that if the Zulus go back to circumcision, they must do it the western way, in hospital.''

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/circumcision-zulu-south-africa-hiv

This tribal ritual spreads HIV through the use of the same knife among dozens of boys at a time. Ironic that it's supposed to prevent it, don't you think?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Circumcision under unsanitary conditions would defeat the whole purpose of the exercise

But that's not what its proponents are advocating.


I have come to the conclusion that this subject sheds much heat and little light. I think the American Academy Of Family Physicians has it about right that circumcision is a personal decision for the parents that they should undertake for their male children after much consideration.

[Touchdown]

67. I think that everyone on this site holds the American Medical establishment

with a healthy bit of skepticism, especially when the AMA is in league with big insurance to de-rail HC reform.

... That is until this subject comes along. Then the AMA/American medicine is beyond reproach. The fact that a LOT of money is being made by keeping this practice going is just a pleasant side effect. The rest of the world whose studies contradict everything Americans say about circumcision are nothing but quacks and ankle biters.

[proteus_lives]

63. The anti-circumcision rangers are out in force.

"It's abuse, it's evilllll, it was done to me and I'm traumatized!!!!"

:rofl:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Withywindle]

69. But what I see from these articles, collectively

is that the male circumcision rate is ALREADY higher in Africa than it is in Europe. Has been for decades. Never mind South America, where circumcision is rare compared to either.

So why isn't the HIV rate higher in Europe and South America than in Africa, if circumcision were really a significant factor? It isn't.

[Confusious]

73. Could be alot of things

They don't look at all countries for these types of studies. They look at countries just in Africa and take the data from there.

A study of the United States doesn't apply to India, as far as people go.

Just as a thought, I think it has a lot to do with culture male ego bullshit. AIDS, at least when it started out there was thought of as a "Gay Disease" which gave it a foothold and made everything worse. Ignorance has taken it's toll also.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa

Just my thoughts on what I've heard.

[Withywindle]

74. Well, they should, if they're trying to draw conclusions as far-reaching as some people claim.

For that matter, the US has a relatively high circumcision rate and a relatively high HIV rate, when compared to South America and Western Europe.

And what are circumcision rates as compared to HIV rates in Eastern and SE Asia, and parts of South Asia without high Muslim populations (I'm assuming places with high Muslim populations will have high circumcision rates, since Muslims are as religiously devoted to it as Jews are).

For that matter, what is UP with the Abrahamic God and his bizarre obsession with foreskins? Why THAT as a mark of the covenant, of all things? Why not the pinky nail, or the left earlobe, or any other small body part? :crazy:

(Full disclaimer: at 40, I still have my tonsils, appendix, and all but one of my wisdom teeth. I like to keep what I was born with unless they actually give you real trouble, as one of my wisdom teeth did.)

[TexasObserver]

75. Do the women here who advocate male circumcision also find female circumcision attractive?

We could probably cut the losses of women to uterine and breast cancer if all women had their uterus and breasts removed at age 35.

Would anyone think that's a good idea? I don't, even though there would almost certainly be reduced deaths of women due to uterine or breast cancer. I suspect few women would choose to do that based upon reducing the risk of future cancers that may never come.


FYI: I think it is preferable for boys to be circumcised, but ultimately, it's the decision of the parents in our society, and social standards matter more than health benefits.

[Lil Missy]

76. Comparing some skin removal to loss of uterus and breast in women is a ridiculous argument.

You guys just kill me. :rofl:

[Touchdown]

77. Easy for you to say.

Since you don't have a dick.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tailormyst]

99. The two are very different and comparing them is dishonest and offensive

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. Who or what is your rolling eyes smiley aimed at? (nt)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

80. They should use condoms, not cut it off!

Foreskins are there for a reason. They are there to make intercourse easier. The anti-sex crowd wants to make sex more difficult.

As a mature woman who has had both the factory-fresh ragtop and the cut variety, the factory equipment is much more pleasurable and does not cause vaginal rawness and soreness. That is because the man is sliding around in his own skin, not irritating the woman's vagina.

If it was up to me I would NOT have a son circumcised. I have no sons.

[Grand Taurean]

82. As you said.

[apocalypsehow]

86. I've had no complaints. In fact, mostly rave reviews. You must have had some crappy lovers. n/t.

[Touchdown]

89. I know it's hard to accept that you were victimized and your diminished.

We all go through this from time to time. And it's completely understandable that your first reaction upon hearing that you were butchered for no good reason as an infant is to deny that fact and brag about your virility, masking the facts in false bravado. It's common among circumcised men.

Brag away. I know it makes you feel better. We understand why your doing it. It too will pass.

[apocalypsehow]

90. And projection, too. Such issues you must have - makes me wish I was an therapist.

I'll bet you put yours kid's through college - several times over.

[Touchdown]

96. Understandable response... and predictable.

Continue fighting. Lashing out is a natural next step in the coping process.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Do You Really Believe

Do you really believe that the billions of men who are circumcised are psychologically scarred and could you please point to the scientific literature that backs that up.

[Touchdown]

102. Did I claim that?

Why would I provide proof of something I never claimed?

What I was getting at with the other poster, as well as rubbing his face in his bullshit snark, was dissociation.

Dissociation: In psychology and psychiatry, a perceived detachment of the mind from the emotional state or even from the body. Dissociation is characterized by a sense of the world as a dreamlike or unreal place and may be accompanied by poor memory of the specific events, which in severe form is known as dissociative amnesia.

The term dissociation refers to the act of separating or the state of being separated.

Repressed memories, denial, other terms could fit into this category. PTSD, once called Shell Shock or battle fatigue, is a form of dissociation, as is repressed memories of childhood abuse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Is It A Scientifically Established Fact That Circumcised Men Miss Their Foreskin ?

~

[Lil Missy]

98. Dude! Get a hold of yourself!

Seriously, are you making this up?

[Touchdown]

103. Dissociation. Look it up.

...Dudette!

[Lil Missy]

104. Sorry, I didn't know. Best wishes for a full recovery. n/t

[Touchdown]

106. I don't suffer from it, but by your response you might want to...

start shopping for a therapist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. I Have Read And Heard The Opposite

That uncircumcised men, upon insertion, while moving up and down in their own foreskin, are actually having sex with themselves

Who knows.

[Touchdown]

88. That's a common argument...

... among circumcision advocates. I now see how you came to your POV.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Touchdown]

84. How to wash your privates.

For Little Girls!




For Little Boys

[joshcryer]

91. In an environment with lack of clean water...

...your joke really is not funny.

[Touchdown]

95. I don't think it's one bit funny either.

Clean water or not.

You saw this as a joke?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. I Think They Use Small Surgical Scissors Not Household Scissors Or Meat Cleavers

I admire your passion on this topic but would you at at least be willing to entertain the notion that circumcision offers medical and health benefits and that it is an intensely personal decision that parents must make after consulting with their physician, friends, family, and clergy if they are religious.


I understand that you were unhappy that this procedure was performed on you but I suspect for the vast majority of men who have had the procedure performed on them it was of no great consequence.


PEACE
DSB

[Touchdown]

100. I would not.

I have studied the dubious evidence on medical and health benefits, and find them to be questionable science at best.

I will agree that it is an intensely personal decision, but disagree that it is the decision of anyone but the owner of the foreskin. Parents are not the owners of a boy's foreskin.

You can only conclude that it is of no great consequence to most men, because most American men are kept in the dark about the procedure, and have been conditioned, as you to believe there are actual health benefits.

You responded up thread to my tribal circumcision post on Africa. They use machetes. I showed a picture of the knife they use. Don't deny that now. The point is the same. It's illegal to preform FGM in the US. The 14 Amendment guarantees equal protection. Obviously it's being violated.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.