Europeans Take to the Streets.......

[marmar]

......while Americans sit at home and write strongly-worded emails.



from the Independent UK:



Europe's winter of discontent
Strikes threaten to cause paralysis as workers reject government attempts to cut spending and wages

By Sean O'Grady, Economics Editor
Wednesday, 24 February 2010


A wave of industrial and social unrest is building across Europe as workers resist attempts by governments and private companies to impose austerity policies, drive down wages and rescue some nations from near-bankruptcy.

Huge protest rallies took place in cities across Spain last night; today a general strike could paralyse Greece while industrial action at French airports and oil plants as well as the narrowly averted stoppage at Germany's Lufthansa promise to be just the start of the greatest demonstration of public unrest seen on the continent since the revolutionary fervour of 1968. Europe's industrial economy is not clear of recession yet either and with unemployment rising and demands for austerity growing, Europe's workers are becoming increasingly restive.

Italy's beleaguered car giant Fiat abruptly suspended production across all its Italian plants this week, laying off a workforce of 30,000 people for two weeks and further closures are forecast for next month.

There are signs meanwhile that confidence is sagging under the weight of unrelenting media gloom about the Greek crisis. The Governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, voiced his concern that Europe's recovery has now "stalled", a development with grim repercussions for the British economy. The much-feared "double dip" recession seems to be becoming inevitable. ......(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europes-winter-of-discontent-1908527.html

[HeresyLives]

1. Protests will just make it worse.

Who ran up the debts after all?

[inna]

15. "Protests will just make it worse." -- Care to explain what you meant?

[galileoreloaded]

27. He or she means that slowing down causes slowing down. Just what he/she said.

Principled and right? Absolutely.

[HeresyLives]

43. Loss of work, loss of income, cop overtime, chaos...

it all costs money...money Greece doesn't have.

[Selatius]

102. That statement is completely devoid of perspective.

You're comparing protests that will cost the police millions of dollars when the issue at hand is a debt totaling into the billions of dollars. Your position is wildly skewed.

[Hannah Bell]

95. what are you babbling about? were the banksters planning a protest?

[readmoreoften]

114. What total idiocy. Because "laying back and enjoying it" has gotten us so far.

[liberal_at_heart]

2. There is a line I heard in Micheal Moore's film Sicko that I just love

One of the Englishmen that Micheal interviews that sayst the difference between Europe and America is that in Europe the government fears the people. In America the people fear the government. I love that line. It is so true. I have always admired how the people of Europe actually get out in the streets and protest when their governments don't represent the people.

[Whisp]

3. thats also a line in the movie V for Vendetta.

which btw is a must to see if you already haven't.

[PassingFair]

111. TJ

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson

[marmar]

4. Actually, it was one of the Americans living in France who he interviewed who said that.

She was quite right.

[HeresyLives]

5. Except it just makes things worse.

Debts have to be paid, simple as that.

[liberal_at_heart]

6. The question become who pays for that debt

Everybody or just the poor and middle class? That is why workers in Eurpope march the streets and why we should be.

[HeresyLives]

7. The people who ran it up. Voters.

[marmar]

8. Huh?

[HeresyLives]

10. Wadda you mean 'huh'?

Who the hell did you think was spending it?

[dysfunctional press]

9. voters don't run up the debts.

the people they elect do.

[HeresyLives]

12. Yes, indeed the voters do.

They elect people on the basis on what they can get.

[dysfunctional press]

22. not really.

money is generally spent differently than how it's promised in a campaign.

[girl gone mad]

45. Voters were opposed to Iraq war, TARP, etc.

These were done to benefit the MIC and the banking cartel, not the people. So there's that.

[HeresyLives]

49. Obviously they weren't.

Bush had two terms ya know.

[girl gone mad]

57. Sorry, you're wrong.

Just like you were wrong when you said that the debts will have to be paid back.

[HeresyLives]

63. Yada yada.

Not interested in games...sorry.

[dysfunctional press]

74. especially when you're losing so badly.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

67. in greece? no, i didn't know that.

[liberal_at_heart]

23. Yes but which voters?

All voters including the millionaires? Or do they continue to get legal loopholes to pay less so that the majority gets put on the middle and lower class? We should have a flat tax so that the rich no longer have the loopholes to get out of paying.

[HeresyLives]

26. The ones who vote for the politicians promising goodies.

[liberal_at_heart]

29. Oh, so you are including the rich too then. Okay I can accept that.

[HeresyLives]

35. Glad to hear it.

But the rich don't vote for politicians promising goodies..in fact the rich don't usually vote at all.

[mmonk]

97. Why vote when you can pay them to get your way?

[raccoon]

112. How could you know that? nt

[dysfunctional press]

36. so non-voters and people who vote for the losers are exempt...?

cool.

[dysfunctional press]

33. what about the people who don't vote, or voted for the losers...?

by that logic- they shouldn't have to pay.

[HeresyLives]

38. LOL reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaching.

[dysfunctional press]

48. not at all. just going by the parameters you laid out.

non-voters/third party voters all get a free pass :hi:

[HeresyLives]

50. All the citizens of a country pay.

[dysfunctional press]

56. you specifically said "voters".

:shrug:

time to back-pedal already, huh...?

[HeresyLives]

59. I'm not into games, sorry.

So don't bother trying to pay them.

Greeks, voters, citizens, live bodies...whatever you want to call them.

[dysfunctional press]

62. especially when you get tripped up by your own rules..?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[HeresyLives]

64. Games have rules, I don't play games.

Greece is serious business...you argue like a rightwinger

[marmar]

68. "you argue like a rightwinger"

Projection.

[HeresyLives]

72. Yup you play games and ignore the topic.

Boring.

[marmar]

Quite honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone has a clue WTF you're trying to say.

nt

[dysfunctional press]

78. that's okay- neither does she.

[marmar]

80. LOL

:P

[HeresyLives]

79. Yeah they do. a) Greece is in debt. b) Debt has to be paid.

c) Europe is being asked to chip in. d) Europeans are rejecting the idea.


Amazing that this needs a step by step explanation.

Perhaps if there was less clowning around....

[dysfunctional press]

87. and e) Bush had two terms in greece.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7781704&mesg_id=7782056

[Hannah Bell]

98. no. it doesn't.

[girl gone mad]

89. American workers are awful..

and Greece's financial problems are all the fault of the useless American workers who voted for Bush (therefore we are all for the wars and bailouts and tax cuts and obligated to pay, but the wealthy people who actually benefited from the wars and bailouts and tax cuts don't need to pay because they are managers, therefore superior to lousy American workers who are pathetic and stupid and deserve to lose their jobs to slave laborers in third world toxic dumps).

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

76. if it's about greece- why did you talk about bush having two terms...?

you have all the logic(or rather lack thereof) of a right-winger.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

71. please post the link where it became about greece.

[Toucano]

17. The only people who CAN pay it. The people who have it.

The rich.

Bring back the pre-Reagan tax structure, and see how fast things turn around.

[HeresyLives]

20. Everyone pays their share.

[dysfunctional press]

51. that's how it used to work, alright.

but ronbo raygun and his corporatist legions changed all that.

[HeresyLives]

54. This is Greece today, not 80s US we're talking about.

[dysfunctional press]

65. when did it become about greece...?

when people started calling you out...?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[HeresyLives]

69. Check the topic.

Are you 'calling me out'??

Sorry...I thot that died at the OK corral.

[dysfunctional press]

it says "europeans". and mentions spain, greece, england, france....

:shrug:

[marmar]

55. The working and middle class are paying a proportionately higher share....

In 2007, the top 400 paid only 16.6 percent of their total incomes in federal income tax, down from 17.2 percent in 2006 — and down even more from the 29.9 percent effective tax rate on the top 400 in 1995. In other words, in just a dozen years, the tax rate on America’s super rich dropped by almost half.

Go back a few decades and the current tax “burden” on our super rich becomes even more remarkably light. In 1955, the nation’s top 400 — to be precise, the top 427, the total available from IRS historical records — paid 51.2 percent of their incomes in federal tax, over triple the tax rate on top 400 incomes in 2007.

How huge a tax break are today’s super rich getting? If 2007’s top 400 had paid their federal taxes at the same rate as 1955’s most financially favored, the federal treasury would have collected an additional $47.7 billion.


http://toomuchonline.org/our-plutocracy-a-compelling-new-portrait/

[HeresyLives]

60. This is about Greece today, not the US.

[dysfunctional press]

84. then what was that stuff you posted about bush having two terms...?

did he get elected in greece as well? :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

96. no, they don't.

[Mudoria]

109. Sorry, it's not true...

American's don't fear their government.. they hate government. Big difference.

[anonymous171]

11. Elites fear the American worker,

so naturally they have invested many more resources in keeping them sedated. The European worker is far less threatening to the status quo because their governments have much less power.

[HeresyLives]

13. Nobody fears the American worker.

And you should stop tossing around the word 'elites'. It means liberals.

[anonymous171]

19. Only certain kinds of liberals. You know, the ones that hate the worker

They often consider him ignorant and unworthy of any consideration. Those are only "liberal" elites.

That being said, in this context I am referring to the economic elites, not the cultural elites. These people do actually fear the American worker. That's why they are always pumping him full of propaganda 24/7 (and why they don't bother doing the same to Europeans.)

[HeresyLives]

25. Sorry the word 'elites' is usually preceeded by 'liberal'

'Elite' just means the best.

Elite fighting force, elite surgeons etc

And no one fears the American worker.

[anonymous171]

70. They do fear the American worker. We can completely destroy their system with one ballot.

European workers cannot. That is why they conduct their business in secrecy. That is why they are so paranoid. That is again why they are always trying to convince us that their interests are our interests via the media.

[HeresyLives]

73. Not enough of you to do anything.

[girl gone mad]

90. There are enough of us to vote for the candidate who says..

"Default is our best option."

[jeanpalmer]

107. We're in a predicament very similar to Greece's

Our deficit as a % of GDP is the same -- 12%. Our overall debt as a % of GDP is lower -- 65% as opposed to Greece's 115% -- but it's moving up fast. When you look at the condition of our Federal budget and the effort that will have to be made to bring down the deficit (plus all the other problems we have like draconian cuts in state budgets), you can see the potential for further economic dislocations and yes civil unrest. If big budget cuts are made, if wages and pensions were to be reduced, what would the response of the American people be?

[bertman]

92. "Sorry the word 'elites' is usually preceeded by 'liberal'" Only when used by some

right-wing hack who thinks it makes him sound smart to call liberals "elites".

You are spewing bullshit, heresylives.

[anonymous171]

93. Exactly. FDR used the word all the time.

Why the left stopped using it as a pejorative I do not know.

[marmar]

16. "The European worker far less threatening to the status quo because their governments have,,,,"

Repetez en anglais, s'il vous plait? :shrug:

[951-Riverside]

14. "......while Americans sit at home and write strongly-worded emails."

Do you know what they do to protesters in the US?

This is not exactly a protester friendly country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8CNa_viKg0

[Juche]

18. Well, what do we do?

We've had protests. They get ignored. It seems the only meaningful protests would be boycotts, refusing to pay taxes or refusing to go to work.

[marmar]

21. Precisely. That's what Europeans do....They don't go to work and shut their countries down.

People marching around with protest signs won't cut it.

[anonymous171]

24. They have a stronger safety net. Here, you skip work, you get fired.

[marmar]

28. But you'll never get the safety net if you don't do that.....

..... ala the Flint sit-down strike.

[anonymous171]

32. True. That's why unions are so vital to nations' economic health. nt

[HeresyLives]

39. Unions are dead.

[anonymous171]

44. They aren't dead, but they might as well be considering their meager numbers and influence

:(

[HeresyLives]

46. Their era is over.

[anonymous171]

53. Will the managers' era ever be over?

:eyes:

[HeresyLives]

58. Who would they manage without workers?

[anonymous171]

61. There is the problem. Workers can manage themselves.

Managers cannot manage eachother. So why do they exist? Aren't they obsolete? Sounds like their era is over to me.

[HeresyLives]

66. So let them.

Just as soon as they can find work.

[blindpig]

113. That's easy

Take over the means of production.

[HeresyLives]

30. Shutting countries down bankrupts them

Not a clever move.

[marmar]

34. So France and Germany are bankrupt?

They've been shut down more than a few times, n'est-ce pas?

[HeresyLives]

37. Did you know Greece was?

Or Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Spain?

[marmar]

40. Greece isn't bankrupt because of strikes, but because of Goldman Sachs' credit default swap schemes.

You can't blame that one on workers.....

And you were saying about France and Germany?

[HeresyLives]

41. Greece is bankrupt because it spent too much.

They have huge social benefits, and everyone fiddles their taxes.

The strikes are occurring now...when the new govt is trying to fix things.

Keep the timeline straight.

[marmar]

47. Again, the strikes are not bankrupting the country....that's anti-worker bull worthy of Reagan.

And back to France and Germany?

[HeresyLives]

52. Timeline please.

Greece is already bankrupt....the current strikes are just making it worse by running up further costs.

What about France and Germany??

[girl gone mad]

85. "strikes are just making it worse"

Clearly, you have a very weak grasp of economics. Your comments on this issue lack any context or relevance. It's like you're a poorly programmed chatbot stuck in "bash workers"mode.

[Elwood P Dowd]

91. She doesn't have a weak grasp of economics.

She has a ZERO grasp of economics. She once told me China had a much bigger middle class and GDP than the US, when in fact China's GDP is about one-seventh of ours. Her hatred for American and European workers is legend on this board. Why she is still on DU is a mystery to me.

[girl gone mad]

94. Yes, and now she conveniently forgets a lengthy thread..

where she argued that Canadians will easily be able to out-compete Chinese workers. She believes she and her compeers are somehow completely immune to the results of our global race to the bottom for wages and working standards because they have superior abilities to "manage information". As if that's supposed to mean something.

[Hannah Bell]

100. the same forces are acting in canada as in the us. i don't understand how a canadian wouldn't

have noticed this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. While it's not bigger than that of the US, 'one seventh' is a very out-of-date figure

Using official exchange rates, one seventh was accurate back in 2002; by 2007 it was about one quarter: http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/10/historic-comparison-of-china-versus.html

Latest figures all put Chinese GDP at nominal exchange rates above 30% of US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

At purchasing power parity rates, it's 55% or more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

[HughBeaumont]

110. I've alerted on this one again and again and it apparently doesn't MATTER.

I guess we're including laissez-fail globalizationists in "The Big Tent" now, judging by the fact that my ignore list is still FILLED with them and they're all STILL not banned. This one is seriously coming close to joining them.

Globalization is NOT a Democratic economic principle unless you're ridiculoulsy rich and don't care one way or the other. People's LIVES and livelihoods are at stake here.

[backscatter712]

75. The only protests that aren't ignored are the ones that are maximally disruptive.

When it costs the fat cats money, that's when people start paying attention.

Have a hundred people stand on a street corner with signs, nobody notices.

Have a hundred people block the entire street, causing gridlock for miles, that's when people notice.

[smirkymonkey]

116. Personally, I like the last option you mentioned.

I could use a little break. And then I could churn out some REALLY nasty e-mails about the government.

[Libertas1776]

31. Ya know,

Americans once had a much larger spine when it came to strikes, protests, and boycotts. Now we're a bunch of subservient wimps made docile by our personal media crap and the latest pop music talent show on Fox, blind to our own enslavement since the 1980s. If anything, we've become a stark warning to the rest of the world. Stay vigilant lest you end up like the USA.

[Odin2005]

42. We should be following their example.

Instead we are too busy watching American Idol.

[liberal_at_heart]

77. I agree. We should be following their example.

I remember going to a massive protest before the Iraq War, and a few small ones since but I have to admit I have gotten complacent. I need to find a local protest group and get on their email list. I have missed a couple of protests here lately because I hear about them too late. Being on an email list helps that way you know what is coming up.

[Echo In Light]

104. Brainwashed populace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGavqvkxrhQ

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anonymous171]

82. HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[marmar]

83. Waaaaaaah.....

:cry:

[girl gone mad]

86. yawn.

such a bore.

[dysfunctional press]

88. going back to greece...?

:rofl: :rofl: :hi: :rofl: :rofl:

[malaise]

99. Won't be long before we are on the streets in

Jamaica although sometimes I think we're beyond the shock of shock doctrine.

[Skidmore]

101. We, as a people, don't protest because we know that our employers

will fire us out right and ship the jobs elsewhere or ship in new workers. Bottom line is neither the government or the employer gives a rats patootie about the worker.

[coyote]

105. Exactly.

Employers in America have employees by the balls. Would you risk protesting when you have a mortgage to pay and 2 kids to feed? No way. I live in Germany, and I have the benefit to know that I will not get sacked if I decide to go to a protest.

Worker rights are non-existant in the States.

When people truly have nothing left to lose, then we will see a change. However, getting to that point is too horrible to imagine.

[piratefish08]

106. Mr Panos explains the Greek economy and their recession

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMoNXBeFrDI&feature=related

[coyote]

108. From another board I read....

"here is the deal. insiders all know that the IMF is going to assume its role this/next year as the new go-to lender.

It had no capital in 2008 to respond then, but the G20 forked over $500 billion and gave them authorization for another $500 billion. They also have a huge gold stock pile that will be used to seed the new international monetary system. These are knowns and gold has a floor under it because everyone knows that the second china is given the command to let the dollar float down we will see an immediate 30%+ move in gold just based upon future expectations, rebalancing and late responders.

The EU will not be allowed to collapse because that would invalidate the global common currency objective. Everyone is expecting the EU to bailout Greece, but that is political suicide in France/Germany/etc.

It's all about the IMF going forward."

[DeSwiss]

115. Nationalize the banks.....

...that's where OUR money is.

- K&R

[earth mom]

117. Europeans give me hope that things could change here. It's ALL about Power to the People

not some bullshit slogan like "hope & change" that means absolutely nothing and amounts to absolutely nothing!