What constitutes "Winning the Olympics"?

[Electric Monk]

There's a bit of an argument going on in another thread about total count vs gold only, which got me wondering what the overall consensus here was, thus the thread title.

Imho, the countries populations should be taken into account as well. When a tiny country like Jamaica (pop 2.7 million) got 11 medals in Beijing, they "beat" China's (pop 1billion+) 100 total medals, imho. Another example would be Iceland's (pop 350,000) lone Silver in Beijing, which when population is taken into account is also better than China's ratio of people to medals.


What do you think?


(by "weighted for color" I mean some system like Gold counts 3, Silver 2, and Bronze 1 point, then add them up for a total score)

[HeresyLives]

1. So you ask this on an American site,

and expect to get an unbiased answer? :rofl:

[MadBadger]

3. If you havent noticed, many DUers are uncomfortable with US Nationalism of any Kind

[HeresyLives]

5. But lots of them are quite comfy with it.

And Canadians will apologize to anybody. LOL

[MadBadger]

8. Not these Canadians

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Silly-Americans-Hockey-is-for-Canadians/249038752568?v=feed&story_fbid=358898987596

:scared:

[Oregone]

10. Sorry about that site

[MadBadger]

11. My cousin just joined it. Canadians are VERY nice people.

I think some of them just care a little too much about hockey.

[HeresyLives]

13. Yup, buncha kids with no manners.

[Truth2Tell]

26. You just confirmed post # 5 nt

[arthritisR_US]

61. +1! n/t

[Truth2Tell]

25. first post I read on that FB page:

"AMERICANS ARE OBESE!!!! - they can play american football and baseball cuz u can have a gut and still play those 'sports' - leave hockey to canada and europe- go fuck yourself every fuckin american- go die young cuz of obesity and no healthcare"

Wow.

[stuball111]

23. Yes.. it's true... and I AM sorry...

That Canada won the Gold in both Womens AND mens hockey..... wait a minute...... no..... I'm NOT sorry! WE ROCK! (Kidding) USA can hold their heads high on both hockey teams, and for the effort they showed in these Olympics. Lindsey Vonn, Shaun White... AWESOME! and people... we all win when we see such a great winter Olympics, and I am happy that the USA cleaned up in the medal count, and as a Canadian, I'm stunned that CDN won so many gold! It was cool, and I wish I would have been there. And Pooey to all who drag politics into sports! Go Appolo Ohno!

[Nikki Stone1]

2. Any Olympics without pole dancing is a winner for me

:D

[MadBadger]

4. I think a weighted system

[Oregone]

6. Best pants or weighted system with G=23, S=7.4, and B=.125

Why celebrate mediocrity?

[Nikki Stone1]

7. Hey, then curling wins, man

Nothing like checkered pants and lots of beer!

[11 Bravo]

37. A silver or bronze Olympic medal equals mediocrity?

Tell me, what are you the second or third best in the world at? Shit, you're not even the second or third most annoying Canuck on this board.

[Oregone]

53. When you have high enough standards to get 14 golds, yes

If you aint first, youre last

[11 Bravo]

71. I'm going to guess that you have never competed at anything in your life.

The level of ignorance exposed by "If you aint (sic) first, youre (sic) last", makes that self-evident. (Your lack of spelling skills merely provides icing for the cake.)
It's funny, I wrestled for (and lost) a state championship in high school. I finished my senior year with a record of 35-3. If I was "last", then where did the 35 guys I defeated finish?

[Oregone]

72. Odd

That was my high school record too. :) I was also a runner up....this pattern continued into college.

Thats a quote from Talladega nights. Now go pray to little baby Jesus to forgive your ignorance.

[11 Bravo]

75. So, because you think that you're a loser, the 2nd and 3rd best athletes in the world ...

at their particular disciplines should feel the same way? Sorry, Sparky, but that's not how it works. Did Momma not give you a hug after you lost? Deal with it, or seek help. Now.
(Kudos, however, for the Talladega Nights reference. Funny movie ... although you may be the only person in the world who strives to live their life according to the wit and wisdom of Ricky Bobby.) Now, have another bite of moose, and straighten up that toque, eh!

[Oregone]

76. I think you need some context for the cockiness:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7816769&mesg_id=7816769

An OP that was started to mock Canada's athlete funding program, dubbed "Own the Podium" (probably by someone a bit bitter about the hockey game).

Last night was simply a fun barrage of ribbing. Now today, there seems to just be residual angst based on confused people wandering a minefield with no landmarks.

[jdp349]

9. Weighted by color seems most honest to me

I'd also break countries into different ranking leagues based upon population and GDP rather than do medal count ratios.

It's hard to compare Norway to the United States because only a few areas of the country are responsible for producing our elite winter athletes which I'm sure if you added up the number would be comparable with the population of Norway.

[NYC_SKP]

12. Nobody "wins the Olympics". Individuals/teams from countries win specific events.

I believe that is consistent with the spirit of the game among most countries, among world citizens.

One could argue about adjustments that could be made for population, but also economic health, education, climate, etc, ad nauseam.

:patriot:

[Electric Monk]

14. Then why keep score?

:shrug:

[NYC_SKP]

16. I would submit that this particular score keeping is largely an American invention.

Making a big deal about it, at least.

I don't think that the majority of citizens in the majority of countries competing give a flying fuck which country gets the most gold medals overall.

China, the US, a few others care.

[eppur_se_muova]

28. Due very largely to the Cold War worldwide competition with those God-danged Commies!

The source is gone, but the attitude remains.

"Tradition is a set of answers to which we have forgotten the questions." -- meant to sound 'fraught with a deepness'

"... and which may no longer be relevant." -- less fraught, more to the point

[fishbulb703]

67. +1 nt

[2Design]

15. countries with HEALTH CARE and great attitude and great people won n/t

[Journeyman]

17. Other: Success comes from. . .

"Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." ~ John Wooden

[Tindalos]

19. +1 n/t

[Spazito]

43. + 2

The athletes 'won', all of them, imo.

[alfredo]

18. You win the Olympics by giving it your all

The Jamaican Bobsled team is a prime example.

[polly7]

45. My favourite athletes ever at an Olympic event ....... plus Eddie the Eagle. n/t

[alfredo]

47. yeah, he knew he stood a snow ball's chance in hell of

winning anything, but he was there to give it a shot. That's what it's all about. The athlete is more important than the sport.

[polly7]

48. And he's still a legend. How many people will remember the

names of the medal winners at this Olympics years from now? His heart was HUGE.

[alfredo]

56. Apolo Ohno will be remembered. Women seem to like him.

[rufus dog]

20. whatever!

It is the spirit of competition.

That being said, for Countries I would have to say the US, Canada, and Norway were the winners. Total count and new record, Total gold and new record, and large medal count for a small Country respectively.

[depakid]

21. I'd prefer weighted per medal, per capita and GDP

No real way to deal with the winter advantage of certain nations (the British with 1 compared with the Aussies with 3 is an anomaly) so you sort of have to look at the more traditional summer olympics:

Suddenly, we’ve got a Trans-Tasman tussle in Medals Per Capita, and anyone with any sense loves a good Trans-Tasman tussle now and then.

After a jaw-plummeting Olympic Saturday in Beijing, those wacky Tasman Sea neighbors, Australia and New Zealand, sit a smidgen apart from each other at No. 2 and No. 3 in the crucial Medals Per Capita table, and you can almost feel the Southern Hemisphere seething.

Because these two nations can seem so unspeakably pleasant to a visiting American, it's reassuring to learn they get all sore and chippy with each other over sporting events just like the rest of the absurd human race.

...Sure, neither can catch No. 1 Armenia just yet, but then, for the fifth day in a row, nobody else could either.

In other Medals Per Capita minutiae:

-- With just one medal each, severe MPC threats Estonia and Trinidad and Tobago entered the charts with their intimidatingly low populations at Nos. 8 and 5, respectively, with Estonia bringing along crucial MPC experience after nibbling at No. 1 in Athens 2004 before winding up a studly fourth.

...-- Flashing rarefied badminton prowess, Indonesia went from two medals to four, and demographics experts in the crowd will sense the MPC mania that followed. With a population of a staggering 237,512,355, No. 4 on Earth, Indonesia’s additions lowered its MPC through the day from 118,756,177 to 79,179,785 to 59,378,088. Not many countries can improve their MPC by 59 million in a day, and yet, with so many countries craving MPC recognition, Indonesia dropped from 53rd (out of 54) on Friday to 55th (out of 61) on Saturday.

The top 10 (medals in parentheses):

1. Armenia (5) - 593,717
2. Australia (25) - 824,034
3. New Zealand (5) - 834,692
4. Slovenia (2) - 1,003,856
5. Trinidad and Tobago (1) - 1,047,366
6. Norway (4) - 1,161,114
7. Belarus (8) - 1,210,721
8. Estonia (1) - 1,307,605
9. Slovakia (4) - 1,311,187
10. Cuba (8) - 1,427,994

Selected others:

11. Mongolia (2) - 1,498,041
18. South Korea (20) - 2,461,642
24. Jamaica (1) - 2,804,332
32. Ukraine (12) - 3,828,690
37. Serbia (2) - 5,079,523
38. United States (54) - 5,626,382
43. Canada (3) - 11,070,898
50. Colombia (2) - 22,506,837
52. China (47) - 28,298,821
61. India (1) - 1,147,995,898

More: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/olympics_blog/2008/08/tasman-sea-chan.html

[Forkboy]

22. Gold in hockey.

The rest is just window dressing. ;)

[HeresyLives]

31. LOL hockey isn't really the Olympics.

Hockey players are all pros, doing an exhibition match.

[onenote]

42. and do you think Shaun White is an "amateur"

What's his other job?

[Forkboy]

88. All those fans and medals and countries involved had me fooled.

:eyes:

[SidDithers]

24. Most of the rest of the world ranks by Gold...

while North American media rank by total medals.

Some weighted system would seen the best to me. I read what I thought was a strong argument against using total medals: if Michael Phelps had won 4 gold, 2 silver and 2 bronze in Beijing, would he be still be considered to have surpassed the 7 gold by Mark Spitz in 1972?

Sid

[onenote]

36. apparently the answer to your question is yes

Since Ohno's 2 gold, 2 silver and 4 bronze (8 total) is considered to have surpassed Bonnie Blair's 5 gold/1 silver and Eric Heiden's 5 gold.

Its perfectly legit to say Ohno has won more Winter Olympic medals than any other US athlete. And the fact that he competed in three olympics over a twelve year period is impressive. But a case can be made that Heiden's feat -- winning every one of the speed skating competitions in a single Olympics (ranging from 500 meter spring to the 10,000 meter race) is more impressive since its hard to imagine anyone ever doing that again in an increasing era of specialization.

[Kitsune]

27. Managing to avoid the relentless media blitz and not actually watching any of the Olympics.

Sadly I lost because MSNBC preempted regular programming for hockey twice, so I saw some of it. :(

[fishwax]

29. I think the medal counts are interesting and all, but I don't think any country "wins" the olympics

Each country has reason to be proud of their athletes and to admire the athletes from other countries.

[Oregone]

30. How about, whatever country accomplished the most?

Its bit arbitrary, and there can be multiple winners. What countries inspired their citizens to stand together and reach above their goals? What countries united their people as a force of good in the world, by displaying their excellence through athletic games? What country gave its people something to be proud about? And what country inspired the world...

Its not much of an objective metric...just something to think about. With how it relates to the US vs Canda for fun pissing match tonight...some food for thought. After tonight, how many Canadians want to instead be Americans (how many Canadians even care the US exists tonight?)? And conversely, after watching the games, the performances, etc, how many Americans want to be Canadians tonight?

Yes, its not quantifiable really...but sometimes a country unites its people and appeals to the inner humanity of the people of the world. Maybe the coutnries that do that, through their athletes, win the games?

Maybe no one does....maybe just some athletes win certain events. You know, the people who worked their asses off for four years to be at the top of the podium

[depakid]

33. "maybe just some athletes win certain events."

Best.Olympic.Moment.Ever

...in that regard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6GnUTVAF0

[TommyO]

32. Individual and team achievement, regardless of the country of origin.

[Lochloosa]

34. Everyone's a winner Baby.

[11 Bravo]

73. Scotty!

[Lochloosa]

77. Have you ever heard his life story? Amazing guy.

[11 Bravo]

78. I haven't, I just always liked him. Can you steer me toward a bio?

[Lochloosa]

85. A quick history

This narative doesn't tell you that he supports his extended family and Vietnam village to this day.

Born October 28, 1962, Thuan “Scotty” Nguyen emerged into this world the first of 13 children. At the early age of 11, he fled the war torn country of Vietnam having his sights set on America. He first landed in Taiwan where Scotty escaped the refugee camp and landed himself a job doing manual labor. By the age of 13, he was informed he had an American sponsor and finally, he headed to America. His American sponsor was located in Chicago, Illinois. Due to the inclement weather of which he was not accustomed to, he requested a new sponsor that would be located in an area with weather more like his homeland. His request was granted and he received a new sponsor in Orange County, California. In California, Scotty went through school, then headed to Las Vegas, the place he heard of when he was in Vietnam, a place he dreamed to be. He landed a job cleaning tables at the now known Harrah’s Casino. It was at this job he acquired his name, “Scotty” when the manager said he was to go by “Scotty” because nobody would be able to say the name “Thuan”. Shortly after, he started dealing poker, then after learning the game, he pursued playing the game. He had a few bumps along the way in his early tournament career, in between tournaments, and with little money, Scotty would go back to dealing poker until he saved up enough money and was able to quit all together. By the young age of 23, Scotty was starting to make a name for himself in the poker world. In 1997, Stu Unger had won the World Series of Poker Championship Event; Scotty kept the magazine with Stu featured on the cover. Day in and day out Scotty would look at it, he would tell himself that one day it would be him on that cover, he would win the World Series, the most coveted event in poker’s history. In May of 1998, the World Series of Poker Championship Event was hosted at Binion’s Horseshoe Casino, where Scotty ponied up the $10,000 cash to buy a seat and play. After three days of grueling play, Scotty found himself at the final table. Due to Scotty knocking out the 6th and 7th place finishers in one hand the day before, it was the first time in WSOP history to start a final table with only five players instead of six. After several hours of play, Scotty found himself heads up with Kevin McBride. Just the two of them left and the $1 million prize money along with the coveted title and bracelet within reach. After a board with a full house of three 8’s and two 9’s, Scotty pushed his chips all in and made one of poker history’s most memorable quotes, “You call this one, and it’s gonna be all over, baby.” McBride called his bet, Scotty showed him his 9, and it was all over. Scotty Nguyen was now crowned the world champion of poker, and found himself featured on the cover of the magazine he longed to be on. To date, Scotty has total acquired four WSOP titles, with one being the championship title. In January of 2006, Scotty won the coveted World Poker Tour (WPT) championship title. Scotty did this in an unprecedented one hand. A record that may be tied, but would never be broken. Throughout his career, Scotty is the only player in the world to make a final table in all WPT seasons, his total live tournament winnings exceed $6.7 million, making him 9th in the all time worldwide money list, he is 2nd in the WSOP all time worldwide Omaha hi/lo list, he has acquired four World Poker Tour (WPT) titles, with one being the championship title making him the third in the world to have ever held championship titles in both internationally coveted events. With forty-four first place finishes and placing in more than 230 tournaments, Thuan “Scotty” Nguyen to this day is the most recognizable, feared and charismatic poker players of all time, continuing to be a dominating force at any poker table he joins.

[Jennicut]

35. Just being there is winning for some. Some countries had one person.

The US and Canada are wealthier countries, as is Germany. Of course they would do better with more training opportunities. I am personally happy for all the athletes that won medals and the ones that just made it there. Most of us would not be able to compete with the athletes that came in last place, let alone first place.

[madokie]

38. Just being part of it

The camaraderie, the tearing down of false assumptions. Winning is not everything you know.

Thats why I couldn't or didn't vote :-)

[heli]

39. It's a money-making racket for organizers and their cronies

who build the stadiums and run the concessions.

[conscious evolution]

40. The only olympic winners are those

who stand on the platform with a gold medal around their neck.
Silver medal is for losers.
Bronze is for the second place loser.

The biggest losers of all are those who sit at home and cheer like the olympics mean something.

[onenote]

41. well good morning mr or ms holier than thou.

[Bill McBlueState]

44. Well, if you *must* keep track...

An crisp example of a glaring problem with "total medals" is that it gives the USA's losing performance in yesterday's hockey game exactly as much weight as Canada's victory in the same game.

[TexasObserver]

46. Canada's top five finish in medals is pretty impressive.

They probably got some sympathy votes in the graded events, but they did well for a small population country. They certainly dominated curling.

[polly7]

49. LMAO. Sympathy votes.

That's a gooder, eh!

Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Winter_Olympics_medal_table

Top rated finish. Yes, very impressive indeed from the population base we have to draw our athletes from.




Better luck next time.

[TexasObserver]

52. Yes, there certainly appeared to be sympathy votes in at least two events.

Hey, it was only two medals I saw where the Canadian appeared to get some sympathy votes. There may have been others, but I only saw two where I thought that was a factor. Of course, I didn't watch many events. I think we all wanted Canada to do well, the way you want a kid to win something at their own birthday party celebration.

[onenote]

58. which two?

[TexasObserver]

62. You didn't hear any heart tugging stories aboot someone's mother or someone's brother?

I thought sympathy voting played a role in men's moguls and women's figure skating, resulting in one extra gold and one extra medal for Canada. There may have been others, but those are two which I watched and thought sympathy played a role.

[polly7]

65. Now that's just nasty.

:puke:

[onenote]

74. right, because Rochette couldn't possibly have won a medal without a sympathy vote

After all, she's only the defending world silver medalist (and six time Canadian champion) and the two skaters that finished behind her were the defending bronze and fourth place finishers in the world championships. Clearly Rochette only came in second in the worlds against those skaters because the judges knew that a year later her mom was going to die and they felt sorry for her.

And Bilodeau -- interesting that his lowest score for the turns came from the Canadian judge. And a big factor in his win was his time score (which isn't subjective) and his air score, which was determined by a Russian and Japanese judge -- softies, I'm sure.

[polly7]

82. Great points. Seems to end THAT nasty little innuendo. n/t.

[polly7]

60. I saw no sympathy votes, perhaps it was just wishful thinking on your part???

:shrug:

[TexasObserver]

63. Maybe you lack the ability to see things as they are.

Are you trying for the Gold in carping?

[polly7]

64. Nah, I see things just fine, thanks. I don't have to make things up. n/t

[TexasObserver]

68. Sounds like you might be snow blind.

[polly7]

69. Nope, just went for my eye

exam and still 20/20. I saw a young woman skate her heart out and perform beautifully. She herself said she had to put her mother's death four days earlier completely out of her mind for that performance, and that she did. The judges do NOT give sympathy votes. Have you any idea how many tragedies have occurred at past Olympics and competitors still done well?

[npk]

50. Overall medal count for me

Though the more gold medals might be more significant depending on the events that they were won in. For example if one country dominates many different events, versus one country say winning 9 gold medals in one event, versus none in another.

[tom_paine]

51. Other: The Corporation who's sales go up in the higherst ration to PR/ad $s spent

I'd like to say I was joking or even sarcastic.

But I'm not.

[Tailormyst]

54. I don't think any country wins the entire Olympics

Different people representing different countries win events.

[itsrobert]

55. Whatever works best for the US to be on top

Whatever formula that makes the US number 1 is good enough for me. NOTE: No sarcasm here.

[Dappleganger]

57. Best abs and thighs. nt

[Spike89]

59. Meeting and/or exceeding expectations

Especially for the winter olympics, but somewhat true for the summer games as well. As mentioned, Jamaica is an impressive power in the summer, but of course isn't a factor really in the winter version. Norway would love a handful of medals in the summer and be disappointed with a mere handful in the winter. Medal counts can't figure in the surprise and delight that a Jamaican Bobsleigh team or an unlikely British ski jumper can bring. Participating and competing are the victories.

The olympic ideal may be universal, but individual sports are pretty regionalized. I am interested to see if the S. American countries will become more competitive now that they have a games coming to their continent in the future.

[RedCappedBandit]

66. Being an olympic athlete = winning

[Canuckistanian]

70. I always assumed it was total medal count

I don't think anyone paid attention to "most gold medals" as a criteria for "best".

This is one of those rare Olympics where the country with the most gold medals is NOT the medal leader.

[Posteritatis]

79. The Norwegian curling team's pants won the Olympics. (nt)

[AngryAmish]

80. The other guy compares you to Hitler first?

[Quezacoatl]

81. Only golds - Almost wins are still losses

You can't add up all your losses to claim a win. If you're the best at finishing 2nd and 3rd, you're still not the best.

Maybe the best way to setlle this is poll gold medal winners and ask them how many bronze medals they would trade their gold for?

[Obamanaut]

83. No one. There are individual winners for each event. nt

[dems_rightnow]

84. Whatever Canada wants to change it to.

I'm perfectly happy with "Only bronze medals in Men's Downhill".

[cherokeeprogressive]

86. Other: Being selected by the IOC to spend billions of dollars of taxpayer money to host them.

Winning? I'm not sure that's what I'd call it.

[Electric Monk]

87. Stephen Colbert won the Olympics by 452.76 points, he said so himself :) nt