There is no cause so worthy that someone will not shit on it (or: Embarrassing Lefties I have known)

[Richardo]

As is my wont every year, this morning I participated in the Houston area March of Dimes' Walk America event to help premature infants. It's about a 5-mile walk, in and around the University of Houston, and the company I work for is a prominent sponsor. 40,000 people take part, making it one of the largest Walks in the nation.

New wrinkle this year, though. Some asshole protesters handing out animal cruelty literature and vegan recipes - claiming that MoD was somehow tainted by animal experimentation (or something). Hey, MoD funds scientific research. It's their schtick. Biologic testing is pretty much a given.

Two thoughts:
1) How goddamn inappropriate, not to mention insensitive. 40,000 people gave up part of their Sunday, worked to get pledges from friends and family, and walked 5 miles to boot. In addition, many of the walkers have personally benefitted from MoD's efforts on behalf of premature infants. The last thing a person wants to hear at the 2.5 mile mark is that you're contributing to some atrocity from three earth-mother clones who are trying to force pictures of mutilated animals on your children. This makes them no better than the right-to-lifers and their photos of aborted fetuses, in my book.

Hey, if you've got an issue with the March of Dimes, go picket them - not ordinary people who are in good faith trying to better the lives of others.

2) Are these groups and their ilk the stupidest people ever? Do they really think that 'activism' of this nature will change any minds, or even get a sympahetic hearing? To a person, every pamphlet was trashed, every protester shunned. If anything, their 'cause' was set back, both in money wasted on the literature and in any possible support.

Rant off. Otherwise a fun day, with beautiful weather in the low 80s

[mmonk]

1. I do not support their position but I support their right

to express it.

[maddezmom]

2. thanks for taking part in the Walk

they keep one of my pet causes front and center, Autism. When I get back home to Houston, maybe we can do the walk together. :hug:

[Richardo]

7. Hey that would be great!

Thanks, maddezmom. :hug:

[mmonk]

3. I agree with maddezmom

in thanks for your efforts.

[Fenris]

4. That's sad.

On many levels. They undoubtedly managed to change minds from mere indifference to outright hatred.

Good on ya for walking for MoD. My dad had polio when he was boy, and research undoubtedly changed his life for the better.

[mmonk]

5. It's kind of hard to paint the MoD as bad.

It will hurt their cause to seek sympathy for their cause.

[slj0101]

6. Uh-oh. There may be another sanctioned troop rally in another forum.

:popcorn:

[yewberry]

111. You know, I've been seeing that accusation a lot lately.

I don't think it's particularly fair, but of course you're entitled to your opinion.

Tell you what: if that mystery forum is so offensive to you, why don't you avoid going there or just employ the ignore function?

Aside from that, you're free to take up your problems with how forums are moderated with the admin and mods.

[MonkeyFunk]

114. Whether you think it's "fair" or not

some groups have "rallying the troops" threads locked all the time, and some do not. I have alerted on the ones that do not get locked, to no avail. You can PM me if you'd like some examples.

[jilln]

8. Free speech

Where else should they be passing it out, except to those who are funding the animal experiments by going on the walks?

Personally if I were supporting a charity and they did something like say, sew kittens' eyelids shut, which the MOD has done, I would want to know about it so I could decide whether I wanted to support that or not.

BTW, you call them asshole protesters - did they harass you? Were they rude? Or were they simply using their free speech? From your description, it sounds like the walkers were ruder than the protesters, and that is in fact what I usually witness when I see a protest.

[DawnIsis]

12. I agree with you completely, I too would want to know the whole truth about what I am funding.

I would research the allegations the protesters made and find out the facts before condemning them.

[Richardo]

15. Handing pics of mutiliated animals to children makes you an asshole in my book.

Other than that, neither side was rude.

And I don't recall saying they had no right to be there, I just can't figure out what their thought process is. Do they REALLY think that is the time and place and method to get their message across? Seems self-defeating to me.

[jilln]

33. Do people who yell "Liar" at Cheney think

he's gonna suddenly turn and think, "Oh my god, I AM a liar?" I would guess it's about publicly exposing what the MOD does, to the people who care about the MOD.

I have witnessed this at MOD walks, and what I saw was MOD staffers running around behind the protesters, snatching flyers from people's hands and saying things like, "Who would you RATHER save, your child or your dog?" which is most ridiculous, since the point is to "save" both.

In any case I agree it's not right to hand pics like that to kids.

[Richardo]

37. I did mention the pics to kids in the first of my two thoughts.

And I disagree with stifling freedom of expression, even though the corrollary of the right to speak is the right to ignore those who are speaking.

But what I don't get is why the protesters can't see that this behavior alienates the very people they are trying to communicate to.

[DawnIsis]

66. If there were handing out pictures to 6 year olds I would see your point but if the children were

12ish I think there would be nothing wrong with handing them a flyer. Teenagers are not fragile angels that will explode if they see a gruesome image. Just my opinion.

[Richardo]

71. Yes, but who are you to decide what someone else's minor child should be exposed to?

That's the parent's perogatve.

[DawnIsis]

135. Again the use of the word child instead of teenager is inappropriate

unless you are accusing the protesters of approaching children.

I understand you are upset but IMO life really is a series of challenges and you can rise to the occasion and turn a negative into a positive or let it get you so upset you attack everyone who disagrees with you.

It could have been a wonderful opportunity to bond with your kids after you received the flier and spoke with the protesters. Even if you disagreed with the animal rights people you could have used it as an opportunity to discuss that. It appears to me you let yourself get so upset you can't even discuss it with well meaning people on this thread. I think in the long run your kids seeing your behavior will have a much worse effect than a flier ever would.

I am sure you have noticed in life you cannot control someone else's actions only your own.

[Zookeeper]

149. I'm the parent of a 12 year old and he's not a teenager....

He's also not particularly sheltered, but I would be as angry about a protestor handing him a photo of a mutilated animal as I would be about a photo of an aborted fetus.

It's not your place to decide what's appropriate for a 12 year old.

[DawnIsis]

152. I'm not an outlet for your anger

I never said I was a decider of what's appropriate. What I said was IF something like that happened to someone 12 and older all that is required is loving guidance from the parent to turn a negative situation into a positive one. There would be no harm done if a GOOD parent takes the opportunity to bond with and teach their child when something like that happens.

I think you saying "I'd be angry" in your post sums up your mindset. I think it is very unhealthy for parents to let their children see adults handle situations with anger instead of love and logic. You can spend your life "getting angry" at other people's actions or you can control your own reactions and demonstrate to your child the healthy way of dealing with negative situations.

It is unfair for parents to demand everyone else has to behave a certain way because of their children. This protest took place in public and if you can't handle your child being exposed to reality keep him inside.

[Zookeeper]

153. So, my child shouldn't participate in a walk to benefit....

people with illnesses or disabilities because someone with a separate agenda crashes the party and has the "right" to stick gory photos under my child's nose?

Your priorities are really odd.

[SexyLiberal]

25. They don't want to hear it. It was free speech.

http://www.pcrm.org/resch/charities/mod/index.html

And something I agree with too.

[MonkeyFunk]

28. I don't think anybody

has said they should be prohibited from doing what they did.

I think people are saying it's STUPID to do it, because it just pisses off well-meaning people who might otherwise be sympathetic.

They have much in common with anti-abortion protestors. I was a clinic defender at 3 different clinics for years, and I see many similarities between the anti-abortion nuts and the extreme animal-rights crowd. Both believe that the moral "rightness" of their cause excuses bad actions, they believe that anyone who disagrees with them can only do so out of ignorance or malice, and not a sincere disagreement. And they think appeals to emotion actually help their cause. They are wrong.

Standing on the corner with pictures of aborted fetuses does NOT convert people to their side. I saw it regularly - people who were anti-abortion coming up to these nutcases and screaming that their pictures were inappropriate and offensive, and that they were hurting their cause. The nuts didn't care.

Similarly, handing out pics of hurt animals at a family-friendly event like a MoD march is just dumb.

[jilln]

35. Passing out flyers is "extreme"?

Whatever.

[MonkeyFunk]

39. I never said that.

Come on, try to be reasonable. Read the whole post and not just the words you want to cherry-pick.

I do, however, think that handing out shock-literature at such an event is really stupid, and it MIGHT be extreme, depending on the nature of the literature and the age of people to whom they were presenting it.

[jilln]

55. Basically, you did.

You said the MOD protesters had a lot of similarities with the anti-abortion protesters you dealt with, mentioned "bad actions", etc. All we know the MOD "earth mother clones" did is pass out flyers. Hardly extreme.

[MonkeyFunk]

57. I'm sorry

you're unable to comprehend what I wrote, and can't respond to the substance of what I wrote.

[jilln]

79. You know what

You're right that I don't know your INTENT. I still believe it reads the way I saw it. I'm willing to believe you didn't mean it that way.

There was no reason for you to say I "can't comprehend" something in what SEEMS to be a snarky tone. That's part of the problem of this whole thread - all you know is that people were passing out flyers and yet people feel the need to call them stupid, closed-minded, immoral, etc.

I take literature from nearly every protester I see. No, it usually doesn't change my mind, but sometimes I learn why they think what they do and realize that it's not at all what I thought. If I just dismissed them as extreme or rotten people or felt superior to them, I would never have learned that.

[Richardo]

40. MonkeyFunk said no such thing.

But passing out flyers with graphic images to children might be construed as, if not extreme, at least distasteful, insensitive and irresponsible.

[DawnIsis]

68. I assume when you say children you don't mean teenagers?

Because the use of the word "children" implies a very very young age. Why would animal rights people give a graphic pamphlet to a 5 year old???? That doesn't even make sense. I'd need some kinda proof to believe they actually approached little children.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. There's one in ever crowd

Or in this case one group against every cause. That doesn't make them right, though.


Thank you for doing the walk, I support both the MoD and the walk to cure cancer every year.

[ronnykmarshall]

10. That about equal to the fundies protesting AIDS walks.

Those jerks are out there every year and at the Gay Pride parades.

I gotta run and get my car washed, I'm looking forward to reading this thread more.

And :yourock: Ricardo for walking!

[SexyLiberal]

11. Perhaps someone made you think today. The MoD funds animal experiments.

http://www.pcrm.org/resch/charities/mod/index.html

[Straight Shooter]

14. Thanks for the link.

It will probably never happen, but it would be nice if humans could benefit from science conducted without animals being exploited.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Richardo]

17. I love the patronizing touch.

Welcome to DU.

[SexyLiberal]

22. Wasn't trying to be patronizing.

I just thought I might know where those people were coming from.

[rasputin1952]

18. Welcome to DU SexyLiberal...

While I am not in favor of animal expermentation, I also know that such experimenation has yielded quite a bit of info that has been used in producing procedures that have helped people with many horrid diseases and defects.

Today, I think that labs are focusing more on DNA and other situations that could provide relief for many people. Stem cell reseach offers a variety of possible "cures" and procedures.

The MoD has helped many people over the years, and is one of the primary reasons polio was nearly eradicated in this nation. While cruelty to animals is unwarranted and a serious problem that needs to be addressed, there are a few instances where it may well be justified to experiment on animals before passing medcations and procedures on to humans.

[SexyLiberal]

20. I don't disagree that the MoD has helped people...

I do disagree with them continuing to fund animal based research.

Stem Cell research and cord blood and cord stem cell research could stop some of the most barbaric animal research some of these mainstream charities are funding.

That was my point and my point for that link. Which is why the person who posted this probably got the literature at the walk today.

[rasputin1952]

24. Some of those that do animal testing are some seriously

sadistic jerks. On that we can certainly agree.

There are certainly more humane ways to test for diseases and bring about remedies. People like Bill Frist made a fortune off of government grants to test on animals, many of which were entirely unecessary. I would like to think that all animal testing would cease.

[alarimer]

84. So what? We need animal testing.

Would you rather kids die if the cure is to be found by testing on animals first?

[youthere]

130. I heard this quote somewhere:

"If hooking up a racoon to car battery is going to cure someone of cancer then I only have one thing to say...Black is positive and Red is negative"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. I Agree With You. What Closed Minded And Selfish Pieces Of Shit They Were. Thanks For Walking And

sorry you had to put up with such disgusting people. Shame on them.

But don't let those assholes take away the beautiful spirit within all of you that went there today to walk for a good cause. Good on you for it and thanks for helping do your part to benefit such a worthy cause. Fuck the dumbasses!

[SexyLiberal]

21. Not really close minded and not really dumbasses.

I believe that this poster met up with people who are opposed to the march of dimes continuing to fund animal research and wish they would take that money and fund stem cell and cord stem cell research.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Sorry, But They're Absolutely Closed Minded And The Epitome Of Assholes.

In fact, I consider them to be utter pieces of garbage. How dare they.

[jilln]

36. lol!

Who's more closed-minded, those who protested or those who refused to read the pamphlet, or those who came to a message board to express their outrage that someone might have a problem with animal research?

[DawnIsis]

69. I think your post is disgusting you weren't even there how can you

pass judgment and hurl insults like that. You seem mean-spirted and close-minded.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. No, Protesting Innocent And Decent People Walking For Charity And Attempting To Make Them Feel Like

shit when they're doing something wonderful, is disgusting, closed minded and mean spirited. There is a time and a place for protest. Doing it to innocent people doing unselfish good deeds is not the time nor the place. Those protesters were assholes of the highest degree in my opinion.

[terrya]

16. That's unconscionable.

If the animal rights activists want to protest animal cruelty, stage their own protests. They are seriously harming their own cause by hijacking someone else's cause.

I don't blame you or the other participants in the March of Dimes event for being seriously pissed off at these people.

And thank you for participating in a very worthy cause. :thumbsup:

[Bunny]

19. There are assholes everywhere.

It's like a sickness or something, isn't it? Pick a worthy cause, and do something obnoxious. THAT will sure help their cause. :eyes:

[IronScorpio5]

23. Well, why are you so surprised??

ever been to an ANSWER anti-war rally??

lets see...

the plight of viques
the freedom of the oppressed ABU-JAMAL MUMIA
the plight of koreans
how miserably racist america and its lackeys.
how jews's are nazi's
the hiatian justice movement and america guilt
how racist america wont allow 100% fully open borders
how every american must pay for the sins of every other american... even it occured 100 years ago.


consider yourself lucky.

[IronScorpio5]

31. OMT...animal cruelty literature and vegan recipes ....

is A WHOLE LOT bettet than the oppressed political prisoner Abu-jamil Mumia.

[Richardo]

32. Your point is well taken, but this was just a family-oriented charity event

... not a progressive (or even political) gathering.

But, yeah, ANSWER can hijack with the best of them, and they're embarrassing, too.

[IronScorpio5]

34. ANSWER??....embarrassing???

i know some people who would question just who you are.

[Richardo]

42. Many have.

Somehow, I can live with that.

[IronScorpio5]

44. lol

good one

[donco6]

45. Guess you'll have to question a LOT of people.

You evidently haven't been here long enough to have seen the ANSWER threads.

[qdemn7]

26. Animal Rights activits are Zealots

And like most Zealots there is no act they will not engage in to further their purpose and cause. They are the Left counterpart of Anti-Abortion Zealots.

Fuck both groups and feed 'em fish-heads. :puke:

[BlooInBloo]

27. People who think (mere) animals are as morally important as people are immoral in the extreme.

[jilln]

46. You mean like Gandhi, Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Albert Schweitzer, Cindy Sheehan, Cesar Chavez...

Alice Walker, John Lennon, Coretta Scott King, Julia Butterfly Hill, Woody Harrelson... all immoral in the extreme?

It's not about being morally important or unimportant, but in my book doing horrible things to creatures who can't defend themselves is morally bankrupt, whether those creatures are children or the elderly or animals or any other living thing.

You might want to do some research on animal experiments and how much time and money is wasted on them. Easter Seals does the same kind of work as MOD and doesn't do vivisection.

[The Stranger]

102. There it is: Someone afraid that an animal is going to be "more important" than him or her.

How truly sad.

[LeftyMom]

29. maybe they wanted you to know where your money was going?

No different than handing out information about sweatshops in front of the Gap. :shrug:

[jpgray]

38. The Gap is hardly a charitable organization

Why the March of Dimes? May as well protest cancer patients whose treatments were tested on animals.

[LeftyMom]

49. Because the MOD does particularly cruel and unneeded tests.

Whether they're a charity or not has little to do with it- we have a moral obligation not to fund abuse of others.

[jpgray]

51. Well, how many infants would you prefer be paralyzed to protect how many animals?

You might say that's an unfair argument or a false choice, and it is, but the line does have to be drawn somewhere. Most people don't want animals to be tortured, and most people don't want infants to be paralyzed. Whichever one you place more importance on, I think we can agree that a charitable walk to fight animal testing shouldn't be inundated by graphic photos of deformed/paralyzed infants, and that a charitable walk for the March of Dimes shouldn't be inundated by graphic photos of tortured animals.

[LeftyMom]

52. Ethical beings don't torture others.

Justifying torture is for the Bush Administration.

As for the idea that this is a charitable walk, that's why people are out there. The people who are just out there getting their do-gooder high need to know what it is that they're really supporting, because most of them have no idea. If I was supporting a charity with horrible ethics, I'd sure want to know so I could send my money to somebody who would use it for ethical purposes.

[jpgray]

53. Would you be happy if people brought graphic deformed infant / cancer victim flyers to a PETA walk?

Where your boy might see them? There's no question the debate needs to be outlined, but aren't there better ways of doing it? And why dismiss people by saying they are just getting their "do-gooder high?" Undermining treatment of suffering people the world round isn't ethical either. There is no morally safe position here, unless you completely ignore one side of the suffering.

[LeftyMom]

59. You know what, I don't care who leaflets. I'm a grown up, and I can evaluate things.

Yeah, I realize some people see this issue differently than I do, and I don't think that adding information to a debate is ever a bad idea, as long as that information is honest.

[MonkeyFunk]

62. and that's exactly what

the anti-abortion zealots used to say at the clinic. Their 5-foot foam-board pictures of aborted fetuses were "honest information" and they simply had no understanding of how they were damaging THEIR OWN cause!

People who would've been their natural allies just hated them. I've seen mothers come up to them crying and screaming that they were against abortion, but those pictures were horrific and had no place on a public street. And the anti's would then argue with them! Their zealotry totally prevented them from seeing that their tactics hurt their cause.

[fudge stripe cookays]

65. How about your kid?

I really feel for him, being subjected to this crap 24 hours a day every day. Sometimes, kids just want to enjoy some fries or a chocolate bar-- no carob, no rabbit food. What must it be like living constantly with such zealotry, I wonder.

Yeah, you're a grown-up, but your kid has no choice in the way he is raised. And what will you do if he is ever diagnosed with a major, life-threatening chronic illness that needs some of these drugs? Will you deny them to him because of the hypocrisy involved?

[LeftyMom]

80. That's a bit personal for a political discussion, don't you think?

Since you asked (and it's a bit obvious that you don't know a damned thing about kids, because once they're ambulatory it's pretty much impossible to get them to do anything they don't want to do) LK is surrounded by omnivores. His father, his father's housemates and both sides of his family are all omnivores. He is immersed in a world where animal-based food is everywhere, and he does not want it. My sister got a pizza delivered an hour or so ago, while I was still working on our dinner. he came to the door "Oooh! Pizza!" and she told him it had cheese (which he's allergic to anyhow) and he said "oh" and walked off to the kitchen to see how the spaghetti was going. He didn't throw a fit or mope around, he just didn't want it anymore.

As for treats like chocolate (carob is freakin' nasty, you couldn't pay me to eat it) and french fries, what on earth makes you think that he doesn't get those things or that I don't enjoy them myself? Ethics are hardly equivalent to self denial, as the zillion or so cookbooks full of vegan junk food (there's a whole cookbook that's just cupcakes, for gawd's sake) currently on the market really ought to make clear.

Now can we talk about the issue at hand, or do you have a few more intrusive and irrelevant questions about my child?

[fudge stripe cookays]

119. YOU'RE the one

who has to interject your dietary preferences into every single thread. Since you also have a child, and most vegans I've met involve their kids in their decision whether they want to be involved or not, I didn't think it was irrelevant at all.

What about the chronic illness question? You didn't answer that part. Too busy being outraged at me.

[jpgray]

76. So you think graphic images of aborted fetuses are fine outside abortion clinics?

Sorry, but there's a level of decorum and respect that seems missing from what you describe, which hurts the cause far more than it helps.

[LeftyMom]

83. I think they're tacky and often faked, but when they had them two blocks from my house I lived.

I fail to see what that has to do with leaflets, or how having to see those every time I drove up the road simply because I happened to live up the street from a clinic is equivalent to giving small, easily rejected leaflets to people who are actively raising money for a cause. But I respect the right of anti-choice people to stand around being offensive as much as they want, as long as they aren't threatening anybody or blocking a road or otherwise impeding the ability of a clinic to provide medical care.

If your objection seems to center on the idea that these protesters made asses of themselves simply by being there (were they being loud, obnoxious or offensive in some way?) I think you're really missing out on a lot of what our society is founded on. Free and spirited debate is vital to the democratic process and to social progress, even if it makes people uncomfortable.

[jpgray]

87. I'm talking about the leaflet handouts--in both cases it's just an inappropriate forum

They have a perfect right to do it, it's just that people out for a charity walk with their kids don't really deserve to be accosted with graphic images. I'm not saying people -can't- do it, I'm just saying they shouldn't. It would be like going to a VA tech memorial and toting images of the dead in attempt to pass gun control laws or support the NRA. Sure it's legal, but it's offensive, confrontational, tacky, and directed at the wrong people. Want to protest animal testing? Protest the people doing the testing, not people out for a charity walk to save infants who are premature, have birth defects, etc.

[LeftyMom]

89. How hard is it to not take a pamphlet?

I know I do it all the time, or I'd be up to my ass in Chick tracts. Or to take it and read it when the kids aren't standing right there?

For that matter, how graphic was this pamphlet? I'm guessing it wasn't exactly Saw III.

[jpgray]

93. That's not the question so much as should they be there at all?

I see the point of it--let people know about an aspect of MoD they may not be familiar with in a place with many ordinary people who support the organization. I just don't agree that it's a good choice of venue for handing out that kind of shocking material, because the people there aren't supporting animal testing directly; they're supporting treating birth defects and infant disorders. Best to go to the site of the testing to protest the treatment of animals. Best to go protest the legislators if you're against abortion. Best to protest the NRA or gun control legislators/advocacy groups if you're against current gun laws. Protesting near the victims, or ordinary concerned people, will get press and/or attention, sure, but lots of people will be very turned off by such tactics. Shocking and confrontational isn't always effective.

[LeftyMom]

94. The point is to let the walkers know what they're paying for. nt

[jpgray]

95. Wouldn't a protest at a medical testing facility do the same thing?

And why protest a charity that saves infants rather than protest the animal testers directly? I wouldn't want to see people distributing placards depicting victims of horrific illness showing up at a "stop animal testing" walk either. Those people aren't there to directly deny the sick testing for their treatments, they're there to support animal rights. That's where the disconnect is for me. March of Dimes exists to help infants with medical problems, not to hurt animals. There are far worse culprits to target as far as animal testing goes, with far worse intentions than the March of Dimes people. My vote: go protest those folks, who aren't doing any actual good. Certainly don't harass the people who are contributing to help the ill, not harm animals.

[LeftyMom]

97. People do that too.

Really, the trend is to protest all levels of the animal testing process, from the testing labs and breeders of animals used/ pounds that sell animals to labs (there aren't many that still do for this reason) to the companies that purchase testing and the employees that do it and investors who make money off of it.

Since the MOD is contributing to the demand for animal testing of course they're protested. Since they're dependent on public donations and good will, charities are generally more responsive to the will of the public than private companies.

[jpgray]

98. But starving the March of Dimes of money will result in infant deaths

Protesting an animal testing facility doesn't harm anyone. I hate to ask, but how many dead babies is a rabbit worth? If your child was sick with a disease wherein the only effective treatments had been arrived at through animal testing, would you deny him that treatment? There's not an absolute moral position here. Me, I weigh in on the side of people. Most people do, though.

[LeftyMom]

100. Oh ffs, get off the hyperbole.

Animal testing hasn't done shit for helping premature babies. The biggest helps have been trial and error for testing out new technologies on actual premature infants and observing things that work in other countries like kangaroo care, emphasis on breastmilk to imrpove the immune system and minimize reflux and earlier introduction of the breast.

The best thing to do for premature babies is to work on preventing premature labor, and if anything our society is working the other direction for a lot of reasons that really would need a thread of their own because there are a lot of factors involved and it's complicated.

Neither infant care nor labor in humans work well with animal models because the human reproductive process is unique in many ways, notably the orientation of the pelvis which allows bipedalism but makes for dangerous labor, and the resultant need to birth babies that are only about halfway gestated and still need major brain development. Even our closest primate relatives have very different reproduction and labor processes, wildly different infant care strategies and serious structural differences in both mother and infant.

[jpgray]

101. March of Dimes helps premies. Protesting the walk would take money away from the March of Dimes

Do you follow your own logic here? The efficacy of animal testing (which while debated is extremely prevalent in the scientific communtiy) is totally irrelevant. The protest of a -walk- for the MoD takes away money from them due to a peripheral issue, animal testing. Why deny funds to an organization that helps infants with medical problems simply because you don't like animal testing?

Protesting an animal testing facility doesn't have the rather detestable chance of severely harming some people. Like it or not, the money given is primarily used to help infants in need, not harm animals. Protesting the walkers doesn't have the impact of halting animal testing. It -does- have the impact of taking money away from an organization that exists to save infants. The immediate effect of a walker changing his or her mind won't stop animal testing, it will take money away from infant care. I don't see how you can justify that unless you value animal life above human life. Isn't do the least harm a good philosophy? Depriving the March of Dimes of funds will do harm.

[LeftyMom]

109. There are plenty of other ways to fund care of premature babies.

It doesn't have to be the MOD. Diverting funds from the MOD to an organization that has a less abusive testing philosophy won't harm anybody.

[jpgray]

110. And that organization is?

[LeftyMom]

112. Usually the local research hospital has thier own charity.

Chip in to them and cut out the middle man. 'Round here it'd be UCDavis Med Center, since that's who handles most of the very early babies and high risk pregnancies.

There are probably other options as well, but that's where I'd start.

Other health and child focused charities help with specific aspects of prematurity, for example those researching speech defects will have work with speech and prematurity, cleft palate groups will be working on best treatments and feeding options for early babies with a cleft, the local air ambulance group may need supplies for work with or training for care of very early infants, La Leche League does a lot to help mothers of early babies breastfeed, API can help out with kangaroo care and babywearing, groups focusing on higher order multiples mostly work with premature children because most high order multiples are early etc. A person especially interested in one aspect or another of prematurity could focus their donation in that way.

[jpgray]

116. "The biggest helps have been ... testing out new technologies on actual premature infants"

Do you really mean that? That we should test out potentially dangerous new technologies on actual premature infants in favor of animals? Sorry to mention something from two posts ago, but that really caught my eye. If animal testing is torture, are you saying you're in favor of torturing premature infants?

To your main point, I don't believe any local charity group operates on the same scale as March of Dimes. But that's still irrelevant. The fact is March of Dimes saves at-risk infants, and denying them funding through protests will limit their ability to do so. It won't have any significant impact on animal testing. Seeing there is no potential gain and a severe potential loss, why March of Dimes?

We're in basic, irreconcilable disagreement I think. I just don't have an absolutist negative perspective on an organization just because animal testing is involved. Better to attack the actual testing without attacking the people who use the information to save lives.

[MonkeyFunk]

115. You wrote

"Animal testing hasn't done shit for helping premature babies. The biggest helps have been trial and error for testing out new technologies on actual premature infants and observing things that work in other countries like kangaroo care, emphasis on breastmilk to imrpove the immune system and minimize reflux and earlier introduction of the breast. " emphasis mine

That's a shocking assertion. So if, say, a new drug or treatment is developed for any of the myriad problems a premature baby faces, you advocate testing the treatment or drug on premature infants. That includes safety and efficacy tests?

Do the testing on premature babies?

And people wonder why some of us find animal-rights zealots to be a scary crowd.

[jilln]

120. It strikes me...

that people complain about how "graphic" the pamphlet is, yet are happy to fund those experiments. If the MOD is so proud of what they do, they should pass out pictures of their research themselves. Reminds me of Barbara Bush - "Why should I fill my beautiful mind with that?" People just want this stuff to happen in secret and are outraged that anyone has the nerve to say anything about it - especially in public. I bet all the haters in this thread have spent more time arguing about it here than educating themselves about vivisection.

[fudge stripe cookays]

126. I'm not a HATER.

I just realize that for drugs to be tested, they have to be tested on SOMETHING. I have MS, and I'm damned glad I have Betaseron, so that I'm not crippled or completely laid up and unable to function normally. Have you ever had to deal with the serious illness of someone in your family? What about you? Parkinsons? MS? Cancer? Where the hell do you think our treatments came from? They didn't just materialize out of thin air.

I realize that my drugs had to be tested on SOMETHING before they got to me. I don't like the thought of it, but I'd be a hypocrite otherwise.

[jilln]

128. You are the ultimate guinea pig.

Animal tests are not reliable. I'm sorry to hear you have MS and glad to hear you have a drug that works, but just because it was tested on animals does not mean it could not have been developed safely some other way.

[fudge stripe cookays]

136. I'll believe that...

when you scan and post a copy of your medical school diploma. Until then, your comments on this thread are really contemptible.

I don't often wish ill on people, but I'll look forward to the day when you have to choose between being a "guinea pig" or living day to day with what some of us have to live with.

[Missy Vixen]

147. I lived it

>I bet all the haters in this thread have spent more time arguing about it here than educating themselves about vivisection.<

I lost my mother in 1991 due to a drug study that caused her to contract a disease that is fatal 95% of the time, and a resulting hospital mistake.

Before you call me a HATER, perhaps you should walk a mile in my shoes.

Julie

[ronnykmarshall]

58. I've never seen people handing out information in front on the Gap

w/ gory pictures.

Besides, the Gap's clothes are SO 90's !!!!!

[LeftyMom]

60. I got some anti-sweatshop leaflets while walking past one in Santa Cruz.

:shrug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. And maybe they were asshats. n/t

[Fierce]

41. I know what you're saying.

I was involved in a labor rally once when a bunch of snot-nosed anarchists starting whining about wage slavery. I wanted to kick the shit out of him, frankly.

[pinto]

43. Glad to hear you took it with a grain of salt. They have their point, and the right

to make it publicly. And the march made it's point, obviously and successfully.

Animal research is a simmering hot button issue (if that's not an oxymoron) for many, within the research community itself and elsewhere.

I think it's worth discussing without folks on either side of the debate mounting the barricades to dialog.

(disclaimer) My mom, an RN, worked in a polio ward back in the iron lung days. As kids, we all did the annual door to door fund raiser for the MoD.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I don't consider PETA "lefties". They remind me of Operation Rescue.

Frankly, I think they tend to be assholes.

[Richardo]

48. Actually, it wasn't PETA

[donco6]

50. Uh Oh . . . you said the magic word . . .

:popcorn:

[Richardo]

54. I'm going to edit my response - I don;t want to hijack my own thread.

Thanks, donco

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Then I stand corrected.

sounded like PETA's antics.

[Raine]

61. As an animal right's activist I have done that kind of thing

and realized later that while people need to know what they are funding that that tactic backfires. It only ruins the day for people that feel they are doing something good for someone else and hardens their position and makes their minds closed to what you are trying to tell them. It's one of the worst tactics that any organization (and the animal rights people aren't the only ones who do it) has ever come up with. The horrid pictures are the capper. Long ago (when I was still do that kind of thing) I gave up participating in anything that literally "sucks off" of someone else's event, it's just not worth it.

[Blue-Jay]

64. I think you understand exactly what the OP was saying.

Sometimes people do their point of view a real disservice by not being more careful in "picking their fights".

No winners, no losers. Just try to make your point without alienating people who might otherwise agree with you.

[Richardo]

70. Thank you, Raine, for seeing my point.

You're my kinda animal rights activist :hi:

[Reterr]

92. Totally agree-very succintly put

Thats pretty much how I, as a fellow animal activist, feel about it ... Thanks for saving me the trouble of writing that :).

[Odin2005]

67. The "Animal Rights" activists are our side's equivalent of Phelps's loonies

As a person who was born premature those assholes shitting on the MoD can kiss my ass.

[joshcryer]

72. Yeah, it's kinda sad.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

158. Know about the lawsuit against PETA for euthanizing animals and lying about it?

People gave animals to PETA to adopt out and they euthanized them, something like 80% of them. Lied about giving them good homes. There are plenty of "goddamn hippie vegans" to quote Medical Marijuana Barbie (Dr. Babs of Bartcop fame) that insist on griping at people for eating meat (not exactly the same issue, I realize).

[Madspirit]

74. I Don't Support Animal Experimentation

...but that was a totally inappropriate time to protest. Totally. There are better ways and better times to get the point across.

I am sorry you had to experience that.
Lee

[Richardo]

75. Thanks for that, Madspirit

I appreciate that you can see where I was coming from on this. :hi:

[1620rock]

82. Why are you "fuck the animals" people so mean and nasty?..

...both sides have a legitimate point of view.

[Richardo]

86. Sorry?

I couldn't hear you over my five dogs and two cats.

Look, Madspirit and I just had a 'moment' here, and he understands the point I was trying to make, and I his, so we're cool.

[Richardo]

104. 'she'. Madspirit is a 'she'

And she's in Texas, too :hi:

[symbolman]

77. Every year

in Fairbanks, Alaska, the Nutball Anti Abortion people GET a Booth, and proceed to hang GIANT 6 foot tall botched abortions all around it.

And Every year I would go and SCREAM at them, and demand that it be taken down, that it was akin to PORNOGRAPHY, and completely inappropriate for the little kids who went to the fair to touch piggies and ride on merry go rounds.

They never got shut down, but man, did I have some fantasies about what I would like to DO to that stand, none of them legal, so I kept them in my head.

It was really disgusting and while I favor Free Speech, there is a little thing called 'CLASS' that many people in their desperation fail to GRASP.

Without Class you will FAIL.

They're only cheating themselves, free speech or not.

Thanks for bringing this up, so many people won't even TOUCH it. There are LOONIES on the Left, and if we want to accomplish anything, they need to be CULLED so we have a message that regular people can get behind.

We'll save the birdies later. People FIRST.

[jilln]

85. Cool!

I've been looking for someone like you for a long time, who can prioritize everything for everyone. There are a lot of serious issues out there right now. Saying "people first" isn't really specific enough. Could you make a list for us so we know what to do first? Here are some topics I'd like to see included on your list:

racism
sexism
environment (this should probably be broken down into smaller segments!)
hunger
poverty
illnesses
homophobia
literacy
GMOs
natural disaster aid
workers' rights
torture
restoring the bill of rights/constitution
healthcare

You get the idea! I'm sure there are lots I'm not even thinking of. Anyway, could you prioritize everything for us and then put animals down at the bottom so we'll all know not to do ANYTHING to help animals until everything else is solved first? In fact, I don't know why anyone should work on anything except the #1 priority problem until that is solved, so you will be doing us all a HUGE favor. THANKS SO MUCH!!!

[symbolman]

107. I've just spent FIVE YEARS

writing a book about saving the fucking CARIBOU in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, where I flew around in Helicopters in the 70's looking for Uranium for Los Alamos, and SAW the animals being Slaughtered in Droves.

So don't talk down to me.

I've spent SIX years and more than 300,000 dollars fighting the Bush admin with my site Takebackthemedia.com

Been on O'Reilly once, and Scarborough TWICE, when I was one of 14 ads out of 1600 in the "Bush in 30 Seconds" contest by MoveOn.org

Why don't you shut your fat mouth and do a little research before you insult Someone who's been in the trenches their whole lives.

I'm getting really sick of this kind of driveby, insult people when you are CLUELESS shit around here.

NO PROFILE? It figures.

[jilln]

121. I'm confused... does that mean fighting Bush is priority #1?

Or is it caribou? Do caribou qualify as "birdies" who should be helped AFTER humans? Please make that list ASAP. You are obviously much smarter and competent than "clueless shit" like me, and clearly have no anger issues.

[symbolman]

124. Yep

Smarter and competent, you got that right. Couldn't agree more.

Oh, and WAY less PETTY.

[Reterr]

90. People first?

I am not supporting what the activists did here-I tend to agree with thos that say that one must pick one's fights and here they have done our cause disservice. Jmo-I think that time would be better invested targetting some of the big corporations abusing animals.

BUT, I think this "people first" attitude is exactly what has landed us in so much of a mess environmentally speaking. Our welfare is linked to those of most organisms on the planet and pitching it as an us vs. them thing is a very bad idea, both ethically and actually IMHO practically speaking.

Besides its a strawman. Whatever AR activists do, its hardly as though the animals that share this planet with us are being "coddled" and an overwhelming amount of thought is being lavished on them by humans. On te contrary we are driving many large (and small) species to outright extinction and terating horrifically the majority of our "food"/"work" animals.

[symbolman]

108. You newbies

don't know SHIT about people who have been fighting for YEARS on this site.

Why don't you fools do a little research before you ASSUME someone is an asshole.

I've earned my way.

See the answer to the other driveby bullshit.

I'm through being NICE to people that come on this board and INSULT folks who have WORKED their asses OFF.

For Christ's sakes, I've been SUED for a half a Million BUCKS by Michael SAVAGE.

Fuck this shit.

[Reterr]

148. Who attacked you per se?

I was arguing against the "people first" argument.

Yes, I am guilty of not having "a clue" who you are, your self-importance notwithstanding. Get a clue-this is a forum with 100,000 people. It wasn't about you till you made it so. Btw regarding your obvious dislike of "newbies" on this forum, not particularly helpful to DU or the progressive movement if you are going to have the attitude "I was here first-the rest of you have no rights to any dissenting opinions" no :eyes:?


I will argue against logic I disgree with no matter who it comes from and yes I am guilty of having researched every single username on an internet forum.


It isn't easy to talk to someone who seems to only respond with personal insults. I have no idea who you are and couldn't care less after seeing this boorish response honestly. My guess is most of us here have been in the trenches...I am sorry-your "I have been on Fox" credentials notwithstanding, there is nothing progressive about your shrill post full of personal attacks and calling people "shit". I am sure thats what passes for debate on O'Reilly though.


Maybe you should attach all your credentials to your signature so us inferior "newbies" know better than to mess with your highness.

(Btw it wasn't a "driveby" post...its called "having a life" if you don't sit and check for every reply to a post you make on a forum).

[symbolman]

151. Right

every time someone decides not to "coddle" people who give them shit, THEY are the bad guy.. and if they have done the work, then they are BRAGGING.

Bullshit. Don't fly.

[MadHound]

78. Oh this is sooo amusing

From the supposedly pro free speech posters deciding where, when, and in what amount said speech can be parceled out to the OP ranting against anti vivisectionists protester, all the while sporting that cute puppy pick(oh the perfect age and breed for experimentation), this thread just reeks of hypocrisy, failed justification and faux outrage. How dare those people protest at MY event. How dare they PUT animals over humans. How DARE they disrupt my pet whatever.

Gee same kind of yammering I hear on the right about protesting Bush, Cheney, the war, etc.

It's the First Amendment, deal with it. Targeting the finaciers of whatever undesirable activity it is happens to be a tried and true tactic of any protest group. Since it happens to be YOU who are helping finance this undesirable activity, YOU got targeted. Maybe YOU should think about it.

And gee, is that just a hint of stereotyping and misogeny I hear? "Three earth mother clones"

Was there rioting? Chanting? Yelling, screaming, grabbing? No, these three women disrupted the entire event, all five miles of it by *gasp* handing out protest fliers:eyes:

Get over yourself. This is American, you can't be guaranteed that you will not have to deal with protesters that you don't like. Rather than acting like a whining child, perhaps you should actually ask some questions about why these people are doing what they're doing. You know, open mind and all:shrug:

[Richardo]

88. I don't think so.

But thanks for the post!

[alarimer]

81. Withour animal testing, few medical afvances would ever have been made

I wonder if those opposed to it would like to go back to medieval days before any sort of scientific progress was made: most kids died before age 5 and most people did not live very long. Life was nasty and short.

Now, I think there are ways of minimizing cruelty and I have never seen the point of animal testing for such vanity products as cosmetics, yet there is a place for animal testing, especially in medicine.

Of course those people have a right to their opinion and to express it, but basically they are saying "We would prefer your sick kinds to die rather than find a cure, if it means testing on animals."

[jilln]

91. No, they're saying to use computer models

or cell cultures one of the other myriad alternatives. It's never been about "your baby or your dog". That's a false choice set up to make people look bad.

And by the way, many major medical advances were made without animal testing and many advances were delayed because of reliance on animal tests which did not work. And I'm sure you have noticed drugs being recalled after killing people. That would be AFTER being approved by animal tests.

[Blue-Jay]

96. Point me to a study where "computer models" are accurate.

Preferably, your link will end with ".edu" or something similar.

[jilln]

122. You can do your own research.

There are organizations and doctors all over the world who feel that animal tests are wasteful and harmful.

[MonkeyFunk]

131. And there are

organizations and doctors around the world who feel they are useful and productive. More than ones who believe your way, too.

I'd rather test on animals than on people, where possible.

[Blue-Jay]

141. Sorry for asking.

I just figured that you maybe some information handy, since you obviously know so much about computer modeling.

[MonkeyFunk]

143. It's the same argument

right-wingers make about embryonic stem-cell research. They ignore ALL data that contradicts the conclusion they have arrived at on idealogical grounds, and accept all data that confirms their pre-arrived-at beliefs.

Freepers believe that, against all evidence, embryonic stem cell research is useless, and only adult stem cells have any promise of being useful. Similarly, animal-rights extremists believe, against all evidence, that computer-modeling is an acceptable substitute for animal-based research.

Both positions are entirely indefensible from a scientific point of view. It's faith-based science.

[mainegreen]

134. You do realise how much resources that go into the server clusters that do that modeling?

Not super-duper environmentally friendly either.

[Missy Vixen]

113. Maybe they should talk to my family

>Of course those people have a right to their opinion and to express it, but basically they are saying "We would prefer your sick kinds to die rather than find a cure, if it means testing on animals."<

My mother died in agony as a result of a drug study in 1991. My mother had rheumatoid arthritis to the point that she spent the last ten years of her life in a wheelchair. She participated in drug studies because she was hoping that her experiences could help someone else. The particular drug she took during the last study caused her to contract pancreatitis and to finally die after a hellish two weeks.

I suppose I have to be thankful that she was willing to do this. I hear a lot of demands on the part of animal rights activists that there be no animal testing, but I sure don't see them lining up for drug studies themselves.

Julie

[fudge stripe cookays]

127. So sorry about your mom, Julie.

reprehensor's auntie was in that same situation before she died. Very bad from arthritis. See my post above about MS. I don't like dwelling on it, but using human beings for medical experiments is ridiculous.

:hug:

[Missy Vixen]

142. It is always so great to hear from you, fudge stripe cookays

Reprehensor and I have something in common, don't we?

I notice the SILENCE from those on this thread who believe it's okay to use humans as medical experiments, and the heartbreak that comes for those of us who've buried loved ones as a result. Their theories can't trump our experience, can they?

Julie

[fudge stripe cookays]

144. Not by a longshot.

I'm praying for a cure for cancer one of these days. If a couple rats in a laboratory can help get the job done and save millions of lives, I have no problem with that.

And if it pisses off a bunch of vegans, I'll be even happier. :hi:

[flamingyouth]

145. Julie, I didn't know about your mom.

I'm so sorry. :hug:

[Missy Vixen]

146. You are a sweetheart

Thank you so much for your kind thoughts.

I was just musing on another thread that I have had a lot of interesting life experiences. I remember sitting in the attorney's office after my mom died (due to a mistake at the hospital, no less -- she'd finally turned the corner, things were looking a bit better, and they wanted to take her breathing tube out. I said I didn't think it was a great idea, and I wanted them to wait a couple of days. They said "No," they took the thing out, and the little plastic piece left in the tracheotomy shifted and killed her less than 12 hours later.) We were chatting about the fact that I wanted to sue, for $1.00. I was so grief-stricken and so crushed I wanted revenge.

He explained to me that no matter how good it felt, she was never coming back. It's true.

I wonder why some on this thread think it's more important to spare animals from research than it is for me to have had my mother for awhile longer.

Julie

[illinoisprogressive]

99. some people are not happy unless complaining or agitating.

[The Stranger]

103. Read the literature and see what they have to say. That is all they are asking.

The rest of it seems to be what you are reading into this.

[jpgray]

105. Why protest an organization that does so much good?

Doesn't denying funds to an organization that is focused on infant care seem like a bad idea if what you want is to reduce harm to living beings? Why not protest an animal testing facility rather than a charity that helps sick infants? If the protest succeeds in denying the March of Dimes money, will animal testing stop, or will they just be unable to help as many people? And how many people is an animal worth?

[The Stranger]

138. There it is YET again: "how many people is an animal worth?"

Somehow there is this pervasive lie that animal rights means people are injured in some way.

Where is this canard coming from?

[Richardo]

106. You know, I did that.

...and while the protesters and their signs referred to the MoD, the pamphlet I got want more a rant on animal cruelty in the food production. With (I think) gratuitous photos of mutilated animals for shock effect.

I thought it the wrong time and place.

[The Stranger]

140. I have never thought learning had a wrong time or place.

Maybe the March of Dimes can look into it and see if some practices may be modified.

[Snazzy]

117. We have a big tent

Unlike the right, with loyalty checks, nifty lapel pins, banned books, looping talking points media, and designated "free speech zones." (A strange selection maybe from the oh so many available examples of regimented conformity, exclusion, and stifling of voices.)

Sometimes people may piss in our big tent. So what? Savor and cherish the freedom. Don't agree? Walk away. Protestors acting inappropriately beyond the 1st amendment and local rules and permits? Grab a cop. Don't like the rules? Legislate, complain, organize.

Having the big tent brings a little chaos. This is a better thing than no tent at all.

Thanks for marching!

---

Also of course: http://www.bartleby.com/66/40/63040.html

[yurbud]

118. good point.

[leftchick]

123. sewing kittens' eyes shut is one of their many useless "research" experiments

among many disgusting practices. The more people that become aware of their shocking experiments the better....

http://www.pcrm.org/resch/charities/mod_common_qs.html

1. Does the March of Dimes still fund shocking animal experiments?

In 2001, the March of Dimes provided nearly $200,000 to researchers at the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center to cause uterine infections in healthy pregnant monkeys to try to trigger premature labor. In these experiments, researchers insert monitoring cables into the monkeys’ uteruses and into their babies’ bodies, tethering the animals in cages that are too small to meet animal care guidelines. When the babies are born, they are killed for further study. This is despite the fact that physicians have known for decades that bacterial infections are linked to pre-term birth.

Mriganka Sur, who along with Douglas Frost published a paper describing notorious kitten-eyelid-sewing experiments,1 received a $49,337 grant from the March of Dimes for July 1, 1995, through June 30, 1996, to continue his experiments on visual development. Sur has published papers acknowledging March of Dimes funding at least as recently as 1998. These publications describe inflicting brain damage in newborn ferrets.2

The March of Dimes has funded numerous studies giving cocaine and nicotine to pregnant animals, including a long series of experiments by Edward Levin,3,4 a Duke University toxicologist who has also received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the tobacco industry and who made headlines announcing that his research shows that nicotine has “benefits.”

In March of Dimes-funded experiments published in 1997 and 1998, pregnant lambs were forced to give birth prematurely. The infant lambs then had their breathing artificially manipulated, producing severe injuries to their lungs. The lambs were killed at the conclusion of the experiment.5,6

The March of Dimes has refused to stop funding research involving any species of animal.

[MonkeyFunk]

132. interesting experiments

I hope they helped advance some new and better treatments.

Oh... I was supposed to be outraged by the mere description? Sorry.

[leftchick]

133. you can tell a lot about a person

by the way they treat sentient beings.

[MonkeyFunk]

137. and you can also tell a lot about a person

by the relative value they place on, say, rats over human infants.

[DrunkenMaster]

154. that is correct

You CAN tell a lot about a person if they are willing to excuse the needless torture of living beings under the pretext (and it IS a pretext -- do a little research and you will discover very quickly that a large percentage of animal tests are useless and may actually be contributing to our misperceptions about the ways diseases function in humans)that it will either save or improve human lives.

That's such a nice reduction to absurdity you use -- its the same one Rethugs use to smear environmentalists. Why do you HATE humans and want to sacrifice our way of life to save the whales/wolves/polar bears, etc? You stupid hippy! How dare you put animals/the environment before the improvement of human life? How stupid you are!

Seriously, are you so f**king deaf and dumb that you don't f**king realize it's a false dichotomy? It doesn't have to be one or the other, it MUST BE BOTH: HUMANS AND ANIMALS, TRUE PROGRESS AND ETHICAL BEHAVIOR.

Every time someone posts an animal rights thread here the results are disgustingly predictable-- just like Free Republic's response to anti-Bush activists: kneejerk, idiotic and ill informed crap masquerading as sound opinion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. You'd rather they use staples?

:shrug:

[bleedingheart]

125. One word - Polio

The March of Dimes was a big force in the eradication of Polio.

The Dime has a picture of FDR on it because of his own battle with it.

How many children grow up today without the fear of public pools, and having movie theaters shut down because of that scourge?

How many will never know the fear that one word would send through a mother's or father's heart...

They can blather all they want about medical research but if they felt sincerely that there was a way to do the same research without using animals for testing...then they should go to school to discover the methods to do so...

[DrunkenMaster]

156. DO SOME RESEARCH, PLEASE

SOME animal research may be needed at times for medical progress, but a little reading will show you very, very quickly that the vast majority of it is useless, cruel and may actually impede our progress toward understanding pathologies.

Ah, I'm just pissing in the wind here anyway. This culture doesn't give enough of a shit about the planet and its population for it to do any good-- we are currently in the middle of being so selfish we are about to commit planetary suicide. ME ME ME -- I'm the most important creature ever created. It's my god given right to drive an SUV as much as I like. Its my god given right to selfishly hog every f**king natural resource I can afford until there are none left. F**K YOU, I GOT MINE.

Cheers, mates. We can all smile in the mirror as the planet dies.

[youthere]

129. Good for you...We did the MOD walk yesterday too...

although their were no protesters on our route. I agree with you..inappropriate timing. The walk was not the place for it.

[Zookeeper]

150. Thumbs up for participating in the walk, Richardo....

and I agree that the walk was the wrong place to hand out the leaflets.

I have a child with a chronic illness and it's an intensely painful and personal experience. I would not feel kindly toward people who felt that the appropriate time to promote their crusade was during a time of support, solidarity and fundraising toward a cure or treatment that could save the life of my child.

AND, I would not appreciate anyone handing a pamphlet with photos of mutilated animals (or aborted fetuses) to my 12 year old. 'Sorry, folks! It's not up to you to decide if MY child is old enough to view it.

I'm an animal lover, but that kind of "activism" is insensitive and counter-productive.

[mac56]

155. You rock, Richardo.

Thanks, man.

:thumbsup:

[hogwyld]

157. Good for you Richardo!!

Just donated 100 bucks online so that they can buy a few more rats for testing...

[Richardo]

159. .

:spray: