Yes or no? If HCR passes, we pay NOW but no benefits until 2013 ???

[dixiegrrrrl]

This is what I am reading, hearing, around the web.

anyone know for sure? Really sure?
As in.... have link ?

[Bitwit1234]

1. I don't know that but I did read some where that they are introducing

a bill where insurance companies can't raise premiums till the justify the cost...I guess with all the insurance payees in congress it won't get off the ground. That is why I think and say it over and over if they had term limits it would cut the devil out of all that lobbying. It would not do the corporations good because they congress person wouldn't be in congress long enough to make headway.

[frazzled]

2. What is it you think you are paying?

I'm curious.

The revenues are raised through excise taxes on plans costing more than double the average cost right now. But that tax is not on you, it's on the insurance companies, and it doesn't kick in for quite a few years.
There is also a tax on people with unearned income:

Beginning in 2018, the Act imposes an excise tax on insurance companies to help finance the tax credits and other portions of comprehensive health reform.

This insurance company excise tax will help to reduce the long-term cost growth of health care and help to increase workers’ after-tax wages as insurance companies respond to increased competition by offering more cost-effective insurance plans for employers.

The excise tax will only apply to premiums above $27,500 for families and $10,200 for singles in 2018 and would be adjusted at the consumer price index plus one thereafter.

The excise tax includes important new permanent reforms that will focus its impact on plans that provide the highest-cost benefits – not those that happen to cover the highest-cost workers. These include permanent adjustments based on age, gender and high-risk professions.



Under current law, workers who earn a salary pay a flat tax of 1.45 percent of their wages to support the Medicare Hospital Insurance (HI) trust fund, but those who have substantial unearned income do not, raising issues of fairness. The Act will include an additional 0.9 percentage point Hospital Insurance tax for households with incomes exceeding $200,000 for singles and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. In addition, it would add a 2.9 percent tax for such high-income households to unearned income including interest, dividends, annuities, royalties and rents (excluding income from active participation in S corporations).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal

[Romulox]

3. She's probably referring to mandatory, for-profit insurance.

This is a significant new burden to people who are self-employed, for example.

[dixiegrrrrl]

5. Thank you for that link, frazzled.

Of course we know any tax levied on an insurance company will be passed directly to the consumer to pay.

The salient issue is that the law creates taxes to be paid now, for 3 years, but benefits
of the law would not be provided until 2013.
So it sounds like a money raising scheme.

And unfortunately, by now, it has been too little discussed that we still will not have
health CARE reform.
We will have essentially mandated INSURANCE .

[customerserviceguy]

12. Some observations

First, that tax on the insurance companies will NOT be paid by them, it will be passed on to consumers either in the form of increased premiums (generating even more excise tax) or by having employers cutting and paring coverage to limbo dance under the dollar limits.

Secondly, those limits look high now. Eight more years of healthcare cost inflation even half of what we've seen lately (without HCR) will blast costs way above those levels.

Third, you see the loophole they left with the Subchapter S corporations. All well-off people will do is put their activities in them, and their lawyers and accountants will shield them from the effects of this tax.

[frazzled]

13. These arguments died back in December

We have good insurance through my husband's employer, and I am not in the least bit afraid that somehow this tax will mean our premiums will rise due to this tax (any more than they would have without this tax or any health care reform bill--indeed, my expectation is that it will help to stanch the steep increases). It's WITHOUT the health care bill that I fear our premiums will rise from the $13K average they seem to be at now, to at least double. Nor do I worry that the employer will cut back substantially on our current plan (an HMO we opted for) because of the tax.

Put it to rest, really. The excise tax is not going to cause the gloom and doom you predict, especially when taken together with the other provisions of the bill. The unions have accepted this and so should you.

Besides, that is not the subject of this thread, in which the OP claimed that we would be "paying taxes" before reform kicked in. No, we won't, and not even the insurance companies will.

[customerserviceguy]

14. Maybe you're not afraid of what your husband's employer will do

but I don't share your lack of concern. We've clearly seen sizable increases in premiums lately, and with insurance companies having to cover more people, especially those they've been able to exclude, I can't possibly see that trend reversing.

As for the unions accepting this, perhaps you missed this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7831712

Also, we have no idea what will be in the reconciliation bill, some taxes will be imposed on some people right away in order to start paying for this. The Senate bill has the tax on tanning salons, and the House bill has the tax on cosmetic surgery which might still be incorporated into the final result. Seeing how many things get slipped in when nobody's looking, I have no doubt that we will certainly discover things that we didn't anticipate while the ink on the President's signature is drying.

I have every right to take exception to what I see as possible flaws in a poster's logic or conclusions, if I state my reasons for doing so. So, no thank you, I will not "put it to rest".

[rgbecker]

25. Your logic about having to cover more people and thus charge everyone more..

has to also include the fact that the well will also have to buy insurance (Mainly the young) and in fact, the companies will probably be able to charge less. In fact the CBO who has looked at the various effects of the bill state that on average rates will come down for the same coverage. Remember Obama arguing with Lamar Alexander at the Health care summit?

Its true, the exchanges and various programs will not start immediately but as another poster has stated you really won't be paying anything unless you are receiving quite a bit of an income and the excise tax on the "Cadillac" policies don't start until 2018. It makes it quite hard to respond to your question if you are going to say the bill might have anything in it when it passes so OMG!

I believe all policies will lose their lifetime caps, ability to drop coverage and must have pre-existing coverage immediately. Also your kids are covered until 26 starting right away.

Remember the bill's costs are covered mainly from savings in the Medicare Advantage insurance system which was a handout to the insurance companies by the republicans and increasing income tax of the wealthy which was decreased by Bush in 2001 and 2003.

As for reconciliation and the deficit, the Bush tax cut was a 1.4 Trillion dollar reconciliation deal, unfunded. Obamacare is less than 1 trillion and paid for.

[customerserviceguy]

26. Yes, they will try to increase the pool

of those insured, but as I understand it, the mandates don't begin for a few years. Even then, they phase in gradually, and I can envision many healthy young people deciding to pay the penalty tax rather than pay for a bloated insurance premium for a policy that they don't see any benefit from.

I just don't believe rates will come down, with or without the current (or modified) version of HCR. There are no cost controls built into any of the legislation.

As I said, all we know for sure is what is in the Senate bill. The way I understand it, the House will be asked to vote for that bill, lock, stock and barrel, and will have to hope like hell for a reconciliation vote for another bill to "fix" things so they are a little more the House's way. There goes your 2018 delay for the excise tax, under the Senate bill, it takes effect right away. This process will give a very great power to the Senate, and as I recall, they bastardized HCR like crazy when it was in their chamber. That's where the very worst "deals" were cut.

As for the kids being covered until 26, what are the details on that? Do they still have to be living in your house, unmarried, and not working? What will happen to the cost of "family" policies, once the government forces insurers to cover people from 18 (or so) to 25 who are obviously still on the policy because they cannot get insurance on their own, from work or anywhere else?

Cutting Medicare, or Medicare Advantage (if you prefer) will simply make doctors more reluctant to accept Medicare patients, the reimbursement rates will be below the cost of treating people. This is a big mistake in the legislation, and will ultimately undermine it, as the baby boomers start to reach Medicare eligibility age next year.

And you seek to justify this bill with the argument, "Well, Bush did it, we can do it, too!"?

[crazyjoe]

17. Do you honestly believe the insurance companies aren't

going to pass that cost on to the consumer ?

[FBaggins]

4. No.

Or rather, not quite.

Some pay now (unlikely that it's "we"). Some benefits also start now (perhaps for "we" perhaps not)... others would have to wait.

[seafan]

6. 'Many taxes to pay for the Senate bill start now, but most people won't see any benefits 'til 2014.'

I first read about this here.

This information was from a few months ago. At least one change since then is upping the percent of the mandate penalty levied against Americans who refuse to buy private insurance to 2.5 percent, and the IRS will be Big Health Insurance's enforcer. Nice.

The Senate health care bill is an ungodly mess of errors, loopholes, and massive giveaways. When the American people find out what's actually in this bill, they will revolt. Here's why:

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not (#)

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS (#)

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses (#)

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court (#)

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays (#)

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins (#)

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others (#)

8. Grants monopolies to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market (#)

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years (#)

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of four will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now (#)

(bold type added)


It is a crime that full disclosure of all the facts swirling around this Senate bill have not been widely reported to the people. Instead, the Senate is giving the bum's rush to the House to pass the Senate bill with no questions.


It is all an abomination.

[Echo In Light]

7. How convenient for them

K&R

[kctim]

8. IF all of that is true

then President Obama will be a one term president and it will be Democrats fighting for 41 votes.

[vicdoc]

9. Just borrow more...

10 years of premiums and taxes, 6 or 7 years of new health care coverage. Total estimated cost $1 trillion. If they actually estimated the 10 year cost, it would make it more like $1.5 to $2 trillion. But what's another few hundred billion or a trillion? It will all be borrowed from someone or another anyway.

[frazzled]

10. I think this is largely bullshit

Which is no surprise, from FDL

The mandate will not start until the exchanges are up and running, which is not for several years. So you won't have to buy anything if you are currently uninsured until then. By extension, no penalties would accrue to not doing so. And even then, these penalties start out small and are phased in over a number of years.
The idea of "junk" insurance is also bullshit: junk insurance is all you can probably get now. The regulations on minimum benefits is the biggest thing the Republicans objected to. The regulations will force insurance companies to offer products of a certain level. And there will be a review board carefully monitoring prices. It will be cheaper than the insurance you can buy as a private individual now, because you will be in a big pool.

The rest of the predictions about cost are pure mumbo-jumbo, and do not cohere at all to any facts whatsoever.

On the other hand, here is what you WILL see happen right away, until the exchanges are up, from my senator, Dick Durbin. Until then, no taxes on ANYTHING for anyone:

Many benefits of the Senate bill begin immediately. They include:

· Tax credits for small businesses in tax year 2010.
· A high-risk pool for people denied coverage due to preexisting conditions.
· A ban on preexisting condition exclusions for children under age 18 in new plans.
· The option to cover dependents up to age 26 on their parents’ policy in new plans.
· A ban on insurance companies dropping your coverage once you get sick (rescissions) in new plans.
· Access to emergency care out of network at the same cost as in network coverage in new plans.
· Allowing members in new plans to pick any participating primary care provider in their plan and allowing women to see an ob-gyn without prior authorization.
· A ban on lifetime benefits and tight restrictions on annual limits in new plans.
· Coverage of preventive services and immunizations without co-pays in new plans.
· Discounts on brand-name prescription drugs for seniors in the doughnut hole in Medicare Part D.

[prolesunited]

11. Actual facts instead of fearmongering

I like that.

As someone with pre-existing conditions whose COBRA just expired, I am counting on this passing to stay alive and prevent bankruptcy.

It would help me immediately by allowing me to buy a policy. It also would help me when I finally find a job. Do you realize that if you have a gap in insurance, your pre-existing conditions won't be covered until 12 or 18 months later.

For example, I get a job and my employer/I split costs on premiums? I am paying for and have insurance, but if I have problems with my pre-existing asthma, none of that treatment will be covered? And if you have multiple conditions, like I do, you are truly screwed. You are paying for insurance and for all the costs for your conditions for a year or more. And, it you're not getting the treatment you need, you just may end up getting sick and losing your job.

I wish the shrill voices would listen to the stories of people like me and the many others here who need help now.

I promise we'll continue fighting for further reform -- and we'll actually be alive to do it.

[Hannah Bell]

15. if those are facts, where's the -- LINK?

[customerserviceguy]

16. Where are you going to buy that policy

if the exchanges aren't going to be set up for quite some time? I would also imagine that it will take a considerable length of time for the subsidies to kick in.

You'll probably end up getting insurance through a job before you get any benefit from this bill.

[annabanana]

21. "The option to cover dependents up to age 26 on their parents’ policy in new plans.'

Does that mean if my kid has already fallen off the family plan, but is only 23 that he will not be allowed back on???

[eridani]

23. HIgh risk pools are utterly useles overpriced garbage

Only people who are extremely affluent and sick will be helped. With enforcement only at the state level, banning recissions is useless. California already bans recissions, but they don't enforce the law because they can't afford to.

[frazzled]

24. A temporary safety net till the exchanges are up ... BUT

The point here is that the FDL fear-mongering fox-news type apocalyptic scenario of you paying penalties to the IRS before the plan even goes up is entirely false. That's what this thread is about.

[dixiegrrrrl]

20. Ty, seafan.

Wayyy back when "health care reform" was being discussed, there was much talk about the public option and much much argument around whether Obama had even promised a public option.
Now, at this date, they are moving ahead with Mandatory Health Insurance.

Altho I am not worried personally..the IRS cannot collect if one has no taxable income, right?x(

[Caretha]

18. When all is said & done

it will be "to little, too late". We are just rubes in the end.

[jtuck004]

19. Want to read? it's kinda long...

I think that people are referring to changes in taxes that will take place b4 the mandatory insurance purchase provisions take place in 2014. Most of that seems to affect larger companies.

Check this link at

http://dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc-sen_health_care_bill.cfm

The pdf titled "Implementation Timeline" will let you know when and how money will be spent, but if somebody has better links I would like to see them as well.

Another way to look at this are the stock prices of the various insurance cos.:

http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:UNH

Since the public option was dropped, their stockholders are loving it. The biggest shovel-ready project in the country is going to be the amount of money shoveled into the coffers of these companies that have treated us so poorly for so long.

[dixiegrrrrl]

22. You raise an important point...the stocks go up.

At this stage of the game, what is good for insurance and big pharma and banks is not good for us.
Makes for a convenient barometer.