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I am so damned SICK of hearing about "competition" in health insurance, as though it were written

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:38 AM
Original message
I am so damned SICK of hearing about "competition" in health insurance, as though it were written
somewhere that there is a god-given right of insurance cartel execs to make fortunes.

at what point did health become a for-profit commodity? this country is pathetic, our elected officials are screwing us over in the name of "competition", which has nothing to do with health at all.

I have been sorely disppointed by many things in this administration--and one of them was hearing obama say "we wouldn't want the insurance industry to go out of business. these are our friends and neighbors" WRONG--that is exactly what I want to see happen. I feel about insurance cartel execs the way I feel about the kgb, the savak, and the grand inquisitor.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely. Why shouldn't they go out of business? Is it that too big to fail" mentality?
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. unfortunately, it looks more like "if they fail, who will give us elected officials all those nice
contributions"

ain't payola grand?
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Go to your local private jet airport. That's where you'll see "competition" in health insurance
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 01:58 AM by Bozita
Some insurance company execs fly Gulfstream V's. Others must make do with those Citations.

Life's a Beech.


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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. Because the biggest risk pools are the cheapest, health insurance trends toward being
--a natural monopoly. Competition is the absolute epitome of stupidity for health care financing

My employer used to offer three health care plan options—Cigna, Premera and Group Health. They just cancelled all but Premera. So much for “choice” and “competition.” The reason why they eliminated choice ought to be obvious—by giving Premera a much larger captive risk pool, they likely got a much lower per capita price for the insurance. Eliminating choice and competition is saving them a lot of money. And now Vanna, tell our contestants what they will win if they correctly answer the grand prize question “What is the biggest and cheapest possible risk pool of all?”

The answer is obvious—the entire population of the country. Large risk pools that reduce choice are cheaper by nature, which is why health care risk sharing trends toward being a natural monopoly, like the provision of electrical power. And any natural monopoly which is not either owned by or regulated by the public will inevitably screw consumers big time just because they can.

The last time a big state gave in to the ridiculous argument that deregulation, fragmentation and “choice” was the answer to reducing energy prices, we had Enron and Reliant withholding power from the California market to jack up prices, causing a major energy “crisis.” Few in the mainstream media noise machine bothered to point out that none of the cities with municipally owned utilities had any “brownouts.”

Yet the President and even Congressional members of the Progressive Caucus are spouting bullshit about how more use of “competition” and “choice,” that is to say creating as many smaller risk pools as possible, is the way to hold down health care costs. The reality is that all private health insurance, whether for profit or non-profit, currently operates on the Enron/Reliant business model, and current health “reform” offers nothing but throwing our tax dollars at Enron/Reliant and asking them to pretty please not charge members of the public as much.

It is a general economic principle that competition in the area of what should be public goods does nothing but drive costs skyrocketing upwards. If you aren’t familiar with the studies demonstrating that communities of similar size with more than one hospital have health care costs that are much higher than those communities with only one hospital, you could at least apply basic common sense to the issue.

If Seattle had three competing for-profit fire departments, fire protection costs would rise dramatically, as the public would have to pay capital and operating costs for three duplicate sets of equipment. If a new hospital opens in a town with one hospital, the public is not going to obligingly start to have more heart attacks. Both hospitals will have fewer patients per item of capital equipment, and will dramatically raise prices to compensate.

Therefore it ought to be obvious that current health care proposals cannot possibly work, because Congress and the administration flat out refuse to regulate health insurance. (Requiring a higher medical loss ratio is in no way shape or form regulation—there is no enforcement mechanism, and it is much too indirect.) Single payer (HR 676/HR 1200), which is health care that is publicly funded and privately delivered, is the best solution that has been legislatively proposed so far, although it is not the only way to reign in the insurance companies.

In Britain and Scandinavia, the government owns and operates the entire system, as is the case with Seattle City Light. However, given that we are having enough trouble just making health care financing rational, changing the entire delivery system as well is impractical and hopeless at this point.

In countries like the Netherlands, Japan and France, universal health care is provided by government regulation of private insurers (and hospitals, pharmaceuticals and health care providers), the way that the Public Utilities Commission regulates privately owned utilities here. In other words, their governments directly dictate what benefits must be offered and what they must cost. That could work here, except that Congress flat out refuses to consider it for the exactly the same reason they refuse to consider single payer. The premiums that the Dutch pay under their mandatory private insurance system are 100 euros/month/adult, with NO co-pays, NO deductibles and NO age rating. This is in the same ballpark as the $125/month/adult proposed in HR 676, or the $100/month/adult proposed by the Washington Health Security Trust. (The Netherlands has, and single payer legislation here proposes, payroll taxes above a certain threshold paid by employers as well.)

Many people argue that we shouldn’t attempt to get single payer all at once. It is certainly possible to start out smaller, but only if there is a government-run program for a risk pool that is large enough. A public option that anyone could join would work, given that about 60% of the population wants government-paid health care. So would gradual Medicare expansion, assuming that the problem of geographic inequities in reimbursement rates is addressed. Of course insurance companies oppose both of those things on the grounds that they could lead to single payer, which is why our bought and paid for representatives eliminated even extremely watered down and restricted versions of these two options, as well as government-negotiated drug prices and drug reimportation. Therefore the issue is not gradual vs. immediate implementation of public control of health care costs; it is how long the public is going to tolerate Enron-style abuse of a pricing monopoly.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. great post!
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. A couple of comments
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 01:18 AM by Art_from_Ark
Say you have one hospital in a town that is locally-owned. Then, suddenly, another comes into town, but it is owned by MegaCare Corp. While both hospitals struggle for their share of patients, MegaCare Corp pours big bucks into its hospital to temporarily drive prices lower than what the local hospital can charge, perhaps forcing the local hospital to either close or sell out to MegaCare Corp. In either case, MegaCare Corp, which is now the only game in town, starts raising prices to reflect not only its actual costs, but also to increase profitability, as demanded by its investors.

Second comment-- Public health insurance in Japan (where I live) is actually divided into two basic types-- Kokumin Kenko Hoken, which is administered directly by the national government (and whose premiums are based on family size and income), and Shakai Hoken, which is more of a private type of insurance that is available to full-time workers. Everyone who resides in Japan has to subscribe to one system or the other. In both systems, the insurer usually picks up 70% of the tab for necessary procedures and prescriptions, no questions asked. Cosmetic procedures are not covered.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. . . .
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. The winners in this competition are the insurance companies who eject unprofitable patients.
That's not a "win" for the people. This competition harms everyone in the United States.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you. eom
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. And they are pitching health insurance co-ops?
Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.


Do you honestly think that the insurance companies will not continue to collude with each other to set prices? Why should a co-op make any difference to their criminal behavior.

Crooks belong in jail. Not the boardroom.
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Competition wouldn't be a solution, but it would help, if it actually happened.
Unfortunately there hasn't been any actual competition in a long time and there won't be in the near future, no matter how many shrieks of joy people emit over pending legislation. Competition only works when the companies involved aren't actively working together to set prices. I mean, sure we have laws against that sort of thing, but it isn't like we enforce them or have any intention of doing so in the future. Hell there are companies that were busted up back in the 80s that have bought back all the companies they were broken into and then some.
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