What are your thoughts on the story about the kid directing air traffic in NY?

[WI_DEM]

He has his father there with him telling him what to say and the kid sounds intelligent as hell. Should it have been done? No, but I think the media is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Liberal In Texas]

1. Unprofessional.

As unprofessional as when the ATC controller in NY was talking to his GF when the Piper Saratoga and the AStar collided killing 9 people.

Screwing around over the radios is not a good idea, I don't care if he was wearing a headset and overseeing the whole thing. He shows he doesn't have good judgment and needs a new career.

[Brickbat]

2. Unprofessional but understandable. I'd give him a stern warning and put him on probation

for some time.

[WinkyDink]

8. HTH is it "understandable"????

[Brickbat]

51. Parents who enjoy their jobs generally enjoy sharing it with their kids.

As I understand it, a supervisor signed off on this. The plane was not in the air, there was little to no risk, and it gave the kid a thrill. I can see why they thought they could get away with it. Stuff like this happens and has been happening all the time.

[TwilightGardener]

3. Kinda dumb thing to do, but not a firing offense.

[Romulox]

4. People's lives aren't toys, regardless of how intelligent a child may be. nt

[UTUSN]

5. "Should it have been done? No." There should be a period there, not "but" n/t

[PRETZEL]

6. No doubt not the smartest idea,

from the tapes I heard the only instructions the kid gave was that the planes were cleared for departure. I take that to mean that they were allowed to leave the gate.

No mention of what runways they were to proceed to, no mention of where they were supposed to be in line.

Sounds like this ATC allowed his son to say goodbye to the plane and to have a safe trip.

But, that doesn't make it acceptable.

[WinkyDink]

7. It was completely, utterly, and incredibly STUPID and the old man needs his head examined. OK??

Kids have no place, not even saying "Bye-bye, plane", in the ATC zone.

[Corgigal]

9. I thought it was cute

I'm sure his father was right behind her and could key up over her mike and fix any corrections if it was needed. I was an ATC'er in the USAF years ago and while I never allowed my children to come in a work F-16's, I know about how many back up systems a normal facility has in place. Since the Supervisor was also put on suspension it appears that he was also in the tower and back up the father controller.

Just write up both father and Supervisor and let them get back to work. It's very hard to replace controllers and especially ones that can work in the NYC area.

[CatWoman]

13. I agree with you all the way

[pipi_k]

19. My problem with having to even having to make a correction is that

this isn't something where you're making corrections on vehicles on the ground, maybe doing 35 MPH.

These are plane loads of people, maybe five miles up, doing at least 500 MPH.

Not a lot of room for "corrections" if any have to be made.


That's why the job itself is so stressful. Because they have to get it right the first time.

[Corgigal]

26. not really

I heard the child say cleared for takeoff. So she was working actual working traffic, not ground control. These are phrases used time and time again. Her parent told her to say it, she didn't decide ok now I can tell flight whatever to takeoff. When a controller is in training this was how it was done. You worked the traffic but you had your trainer plugged in right behind you in case you missed something. They can click on the mic and over ride the talking first controller. Trust me, no one was in trouble.

Just write them up and let it go.

[pipi_k]

31. Yeah, I just heard that myself on CNN

but the point here is that air traffic is constantly going in and out at precise intervals.

The instructions that kid gave weren't for planes up in the air, it seems...but there must have been other people there who were directing air traffic who may have been distracted, or even mildly disgusted by the father allowing his kids to be there in the first place.

I think that in certain cases, if parents want their kids to see what they do for a living, they should consider safety first and perhaps find a movie or something where the job is being reenacted.

[Corgigal]

37. tower works all arrivals and takeoffs

normally in a ten mile circular radius. Also radar can work either with the tower or for a center. Everyone can see and hear what everyone is doing which is why ATC works. Less surprises the better. The tower controllers knew who was on the ground and who was lined up to land on which runways. They do it daily. Trust me another child will never be allowed to do this again. Write it up in the FAA .65 manual and it becomes law.
I just don't like the idea of one stupid error with this controller, who is probably very good at his job to working in the NYC environment, to lose his job. The media is making too much of it because it's scares people but no one was in jeopardy. If the pilot didn't understand what the child was saying, it is the pilot who must take action to be sure he received the transmission. I didn't hear any pilot have any issues so again it was safe.

[pipi_k]

49. Oh, I don't want him to lose his job either

I mean, it was stupid, but nobody died, thank goodness.

Official reprimand, a short suspension, and that should be it.

[NM_hemilover]

28. The lack of respect

you display, for such a high responsibility, high stress critical position is shocking. Nothing happened, "It's cute",... amazing.

[Corgigal]

55. read above

I actually understand what I hell I'm writing about, what say you?

[NM_hemilover]

56. I saw your experience claim, I have my doubts.

Accidents never happen, right ? They taught you that right ? So long as you think nothing will happen it's OK, right?


I think this was stupid, irresponsible, and unacceptable. And the fact that you claim to have the experience you do, and STILL think nothing is wrong with putting a child on the mic for ANY reason, tells me all I need to know.


I don't believe you when you say you know what you are talking about.

Say I.

[PacerLJ35]

60. Are you serious?

The poster above stated he or she was a controller with the USAF, and everything said pretty much follows what I've seen. I'm a career pilot with the USAF and I have absolutely no problem with this. I've been on control tower tours as a kid, and I've been up there since as well doing things like Supervisor of Flying (SOF) duties. The kid wasn't up in the tower cab doing whatever they wanted while the parent had a smoke. The parent, along with at least one other (the tower sup) was on the radio as well, and they probably had the kid plugged into the extra jack that they use for training.

I teach kids all the time how to talk on the radio. In fact, I take them out and let them fly a C-130, and guess what, they aren't qualified to fly it! Hence my supervision. The child was being supervised while in the tower, no real difference (except the child did better than most of the controller trainees I've heard).

[NM_hemilover]

61. Well, yes I am serious. But I may be the only one.

I still say it was stupid, irresponsible, and unacceptable, and he should have been fired.

And I don't care if you or the other poster, claim to be Chuck Yeager, flying the Great Space Coaster, teaching blind children to use "the Force" in night shots, during a hurricane, with a frozen stick. Just in case somebody else has that experience to offer, in order to justify a stupid, irresponsible, unacceptable action.


Stupid is stupid, and having a child on the mic for ANY reason when other peoples lives are the responsibility of the controller is stupid, irresponsible and unacceptable.

Say I

[PacerLJ35]

62. Say you

But you don't appear to have any credible experience to back your claim that this was outlandish, irresponsible or put anyone's lives in danger. Myself and the other poster do. Beyond that, your outrage is noted.

Say I.

[NM_hemilover]

63. You bet Chuck. take care

[PacerLJ35]

79. Sure...

Discussion tactic #107....if someone uses their professional experience during a heated discussion and you find you have little or no experience in the subject area, accuse them of making up their background.

If their experience aids your argument, laud them with being knowledgeable.

[blueamy66]

68. I'm with you.

I don't care what anyone else states...I am a paying passenger who deserves a safe flight. Air flight is not fun and games, ya know?

I would be furious if I found out this happened on my flight.

Oh, and my Dad worked for AA for over 40 years, so I'm an expert too.

[NM_hemilover]

71. ;) Common sense......it's not just for breakfast anymore. n/t

[PacerLJ35]

80. OK, I got a laugh out of that one...

Several people have responded that they are pilots (including me) or controllers, but apparently that experience doesn't mean much...so yeah, I guess having nearly 20 years of flying experience under my belt is a bit like having a family member that flew.

[blueamy66]

81. I never said he flew...

he managed the gate agents.

:-)

[Corgigal]

76. Oh I think its wrong

and it won't be done again. I just don't want either controller to lose their jobs. No one was in danger, really.

Just google FAA .65 and you'll see I understand and was trained. I just understand how hard it is to be a controller in NYC. You can't replace those people that quickly and this was just a silly error. Not a separation error which are different things.

This should be handled in house not on the nightly news.

[PacerLJ35]

78. I agree with you

I don't think it was smart to bring your kid to the JFK tower and let them get on the radio, primarily because the FAA has always been pretty strict about things of that nature. I'm personally not shocked at how the FAA has handled it, but I disagree that they should be fired. Unfortunately, that's usually how the FAA reacts...they typically go all-out during enforcement.

In my opinion, the controllers should be given a verbal and reminded that JFK isn't a place you should let your child play controller. I don't think it was dangerous, myself, but there are just certain things you don't do. I'd let my kids talk on the radio and manipulate the controls of the Piper Cherokee I rent, but I certainly wouldn't let them do that in the C-130s I fly.

Much of my response is directed to those who seem to think this kid talking on the radio would cause airplanes to crash, etc. That risk was probably extremely low.

[PatSeg]

42. I agree

It takes a long, long time and a lot of money to train an air traffic controller and once fully trained they have a limited number of years on the job. People slow down as they get older and their response times are no longer optimal. Many become instructors when they hit middle age.

A reprimand and a short suspension should be adequate.

[Mike Daniels]

50. I wonder if the passengers would think it was cute.

My guess is if they could have heard the chatter as it was taking place they would have been slightly pissed.

[snooper2]

10. at least he wasn't drunk...

that we know of :rofl:

[pipi_k]

11. If I, or a loved one, were a passenger on one of those planes that day

I would be PISSED.

For one thing, having kids in the control tower has to be distracting in some way. I mean, how can someone who has their kid at work give their entire, undivided attention to their job?

In some jobs, such concentration might not be a huge issue. Directing aviation traffic...big issue.


The report on CNN said that some pilots were not bothered by it. Fine. As long as THEY are the only ones whose lives are at stake. Not a couple of hundred unwitting passengers.

[Arkansas Granny]

12. I think it was very unprofessional and shows extreme lack of judgment

on the part of the parent and the supervisor. We're not talking about directing traffic at a go cart track or something. There are actual, live people in those planes. I can't imagine someone letting a child get involved in ATC at a busy airport. I don't think the kids should have even been in the tower, let alone on the radio.

[blondeatlast]

82. The judgment is what concerns me. If he used such poor judgment once

adn got away with it--what about next time?

[guitar man]

14. If it was air traffic It might bother me

But he had him on ground traffic so, eh, no big deal, nobody was ever in any danger and the kid may have gained a real interest in a career.

[NM_hemilover]

15. The responses you are getting are pretty shocking,

"no big deal" seems to be the general opinion.

There have been news stories all over the country, of pilots being drunk and/or drinking, bus drivers texting, subway operators texting, near misses in air traffic etc etc etc. Some have resulted in horrific crashes, some not. Since nothing happened, according to your it's a mole hill,... no big deal, but if something had happened I can only imagine the speed at which you and the other "no big deal" posters would race to the computer to dole out some judgment on how stupid the controller AND supervisor was.

Common sense.......I sure miss it.

[gatorboy]

25. So you think if the kids had ordered the pilots to crash, they would've done so?

Fly the Lemmings Skies! :rofl:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gatorboy]

39. Heh. You must be one of the survivors of Village of the Damned.

Watch out for toddlers! You're obviously too weak willed to ignore their suggestions... ;)

[NM_hemilover]

40. Accidents never happen. You are too clever for me.

[gatorboy]

41. I know I am.

Sorry!

[NM_hemilover]

44. yes, . . .yes you are.

[gatorboy]

45. Well, as long as we're in agreement!

Oh, and welcome to the DU! :hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Non-story.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. The father should be reprimanded but not fired.

Sounds like he had his kid on his lap. It's not like he left the room and let the kid do it by himself.

Well-intentioned (what parent doesn't want to show their kid what they do for a living to try to instill a little pride) but foolish. Minor disciplinary action should be appropriate, but I don't see the need to terminate the guy

[Iggo]

18. Not the end of the world...and someone should get fired. (n/t)

[slackmaster]

20. It's an odd combination of heart-warming, zany, and scary as shit

:nuke:

[Mother Of Four]

48. +1

[blondeatlast]

83. Pretty much nailed it. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Would his dad have taken him in and let him work if he was a

neurosurgeon?

That child had many people's lives put in his hands. It's unfair to the kid, and very unfair to those people. It was a gross violation on judgment.

[raccoon]

22. The father's ass should be fired.

What if there'd been some sort of accident?

[Pisces]

27. The father was standing there repeating the instructions. The pilots new this was someone's

child. Mountains out of mole hills. The father did not leave the child alone in the control tower to give directions. A reprimand, but no firing.

[gatorboy]

23. The media is making it sound like the pilots we're dumb enough to do whatever the child said.

I mean, really, people are treating the pilots like children. I can't remember how many times I've heard, "Well, the kid could've said something else!"

Like what? Tell the pilot to crash? Do they really think the pilots would abide to any command? They're adults. They know how to do their job. It's silly.

[NM_hemilover]

34. Accidents never happen. Smoke another fatty,

[PacerLJ35]

57. In fact, pilots are trained to question ATC directives that don't make sense

After all, it's not the controller that will die. I've had to ask for clarification many times, or even outright state "unable" on the radio (basically telling the controller "uh, no"). I've seen real controllers try turning me into other traffic, or clearing me a route that there's no way my aircraft's performance could handle (ie, climb restrictions, etc).

[johnnie]

24. At the risk of being called "stupid" and a "child" again on here...

Not the smartest thing to do, but to ruin this guy's life is a little too much. As I said yesterday, write the guy up and move on. Maybe a three day suspension or something, but to punish this guy's family is not the right thing to do.

[pipi_k]

35. I agree...and the supervisor too

Nothing bad actually did happen, but that doesn't mean they get away with a "Naughty naughty, don't do it again".

and OTOH, there's no reason to punish their families.

[renate]

52. I agree

There was complete supervision, the pilots were aware of what was going on, and I'm sure that every precaution was taken to make sure that the child was only repeating what the dad said. The dad didn't leave anything up to the kid at all; it's not as if he said "now, when this dot gets to this point on the screen, say...."

Plus, sorry, I know "awww...." isn't a valid excuse, but the idea of the dad losing his job because he was proud of his work and proud of his kid just makes me ill. It's not the same as the guy who was on the phone to his girlfriend before that crash a while ago; the air traffic controller was completely aware of everything that was going on and the exact words he would have used simply came out of someone else's mouth, under his supervision.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

29. MAAN

Much ado about nothing.

[Duer 157099]

67. You took the acronym right outta my mouth

Or brain. Even though I wasn't thinking of the acronym until I saw your post.

[951-Riverside]

32. Next we'll be freaking out about pilots letting kids into the cockpit. n/t

[johnnie]

46. .

[Sgent]

33. As someone who was "flying" instruments at age 7 (private plane)

I can't say much. I'm sure the father was right there, and it was impossible for the kid to do anything wrong.

Now... was it idiocy? Absolutely, and I don't really have a problem with the father losing his job. However, I get the opinion from the pilot's response that this isn't exactly unheard of either.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

47. Several of the pilots --

sounded like they were enjoying the whole thing. Probably not the first time they have encountered something like this, but probably the last.

[liberal_at_heart]

36. I think they took it just a little too far

I support parents bringing their kids into work to let them see what they do and I could see them let the kids pretend to direct traffic but to actually let them direct traffic was a bit too far and is unprofessional. I think this person probably should be repremanded but shouldn't lose their job.

[PatSeg]

38. It wasn't a very good idea

to let the kid talk to the pilot, but the media blew this way out of proportion. Obviously the father told the child exactly what to say and was in complete control of the situation. I can't see that at any time, anyone was in any danger. I was disappointed by how the media hyped the story all day long.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

43. I am not overly bothered by it.

I heard the tapes, it was clear the airliners were under total control and there were no real safety issues. With that said, probably something best not done.

[Statistical]

53. Was it dumb? Likely at least in todays hyper freak out about everything world.

Was anyone in danger? Not in the slightest.

The sad thing is that if it had been a smaller airport and 20 years ago it would have made a "feelgood" story instead.

People just love to freak out about stuff today. I think they feel better about getting mad on stuff.

[davsand]

54. Meh--smack the guy on the wrist and move on.

The kid was supervised, at no time was that plane in any danger, and nobody got hurt--not exactly a "federal case", IMO.

Dad showed a lack of judgment this one time, but I kind of wonder how many times the guy has been RIGHT? How many planes has he seen go up and down over the years, and how many of them landed in perfect safety? Seems to me that it is kind of difficult to paint this guy out to be TOO dreadful if he's been safely directing air traffic for too much longer than a few minutes.

I'd say "Don't do it again, Sparky," and "Next drama -please?"


:shrug:


Laura

[ecstatic]

58. The NY airports are the most dangerous as it is

I think they have the most near miss runway collisions in the country. It's not a good idea to introduce any additional distractions into that mix.

[PacerLJ35]

59. I don't see anything wrong with it, but it was probably not smart since the FAA keeps close tabs

The FAA is well known for being extremely strict and conservative in its enforcement actions, so doing something like that to highlight yourself to a local FSDO isn't probably the best idea. I've let my kids talk on the radio and manipulate the controls when I take them flying with me. Hell, how do kids and young adults learn how to do the job without being able to do those things? I agree with other posters...if the kid said "hey, fly into the ground" the pilots aren't going to just do whatever they hear. Pilots are well trained and know what to expect from a controller...had the kid said something that didn't make sense, I'm quite positive the pilots would have said "that's nice junior, now let your dad talk...thanks". But (from what I heard on the recordings) the kids actually did better than many trainees I've heard on the radio.

[amborin]

64. JFK is a busy and dangerous airport; near misses now and then

it's a crowded area, with all sorts of issues

taking kids to work struck me as unprofessional and dangerous; potentially endangering the lives of many; an unnecessary distraction to what is and should be deadly serious work requiring full concentration

[Mz Pip]

65. A "Shit for Brains" moment

on the part of the father.

It probably seemed like a cute thing to do at the time, but the father really should have thought this through a bit more.

[fishwax]

66. kind of a dumb mistake, but not really a huge deal

I agree with the others who have said write him (and the supervisor) up and move on.

[woofless]

69. The tower is supposed to be a secure area

and the children should not even be there.

[RagAss]

70. I'm all for it.

[icymist]

72. We have 'no fly' lists and see-through screening so somebody can see what's in your undies

and then a child directs the air traffic? You can't make stuff like this up.

[City Lights]

77. !

:thumbsup:

It's totally :crazy:.

[librechik]

73. I suspect this has happened dozens of times before, for generations probably, with no repercussions

however, it is unprofessional nowadays. Time to end the practice, which I confess I have been a witness to in the past. I feel for those poor kids, bright happy children who will no doubt feel tremendous guilt if Daddy loses his nice job over giving them a treat.

IMO, directing traffic in this incident as taped DIDN"T HAPPEN. Repeating standard greetings to planes already safe did, but no harm done. That child at no time was in charge of air traffic. Daddy stood right behind him and told him what to say. Nobody in the position to judge safety was aroused at the time. No harm done. Is punishment in order? Perhaps, but that would depend on the employee's history, IMO.

Nevertheless, bad judgement.

[Uncle Joe]

74. It was unprofessional and shouldn't have been done.

The consequences of tragic error either on the part of the child, his father, the pilots or even mechanical malfunction are too great for allowing real life child role playing to be part of the mix.

Not only were people's lives at stake but if a major tragedy had occurred, I imagine the child could have suffered severe psychological damage whether it was his/her fault or not.

[inna]

75. Mountain out of a mole hill, is right. nt