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I'm quite used to having opinions on Afghanistan that are unpopular on DU.

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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:23 PM
Original message
I'm quite used to having opinions on Afghanistan that are unpopular on DU.
(By request, I'm putting down my thoughts on the war. If you're looking for a short read, look elsewhere. This will take you a bit to get through, and will likely drop like a stone in GD.)

In October of 2001, I "stood" right here and told you the war in Afghanistan was about a natural gas pipeline.

That may surprise the more recent members who like to call me (and everyone who has a nuanced view toward Central Asia) a "warmonger."

For those of you who weren't around, it was an exceptionally unpopular notion at the time -- 9/11 was only weeks old. I don't have to tell you what I was called then. It sure wasn't "warmonger."

I stood here and told you we would've found some reason to "secure" Afghanistan in the near future regardless. Turkmenistan was sitting on what we figured was 100 trillion cubic feet of gas, and since August of 1998 we'd been watching it just sit there.

(That was about the time the West learned about how awful the Taliban were, and Western oil and gas interests decided they didn't need the bad press. Unocal et al had just inked a $50-100 million per year "transit fee" deal with the Taliban, but the BBC did a documentary on them cutting off women's feet and other such things, and they backed out. This is all history now, but at the time I was the only one talking about it. You can check, DU 1.0 is a searching nightmare but here's a link to a piece I wrote for Bartcop a few weeks later, boiled down for the public. If you think you have a rant that's earlier, I'd be interested to see it.)

Anyhow, the deal was simple: secure the country, make deals with Turkmenistan, get the gas flowing, pick it up in the Gulf of Oman (south of Pakistan). Say what you like about the Neocons, their agenda was painfully transparent. And, in a twisted way, I could see their point. The global economy is driven by energy and, however misguided, they probably honestly thought they were doing the right thing for the country. That it would make them rich in the process made it all the easier to believe, I expect.

It's been long enough since that most people at least agree "we" were looking at the region in the 1990s, before 9/11, and at a minimum were going to take advantage of the situation after 9/11. No big conspiracy theory needed, just a lot of energy and wealth at stake: the "energy prize" was Turkmenistan's gas, and we needed Afghanistan to tidily get it.

Cynical, eh? There it is, though. Not particularly warmonger-ish, either.

That the Bush cabal lost sight of the "prize" and got greedy is little surprise in hindsight -- I like to say they went after Iraq to secure oil for a few years, not tending to the opportunity to secure natural gas for a generation. And, in hindsight, it's also little surprise they botched even the simple task of securing Iraq's oil for American companies. In the end, in Iraq, they underestimated not only how long it would take to secure the area militarily, but also how quickly multinational oil and gas companies would swoop in and "steal" it back from them.

What did surprise me, however, was that they also botched the effort in Central Asia. While we've been frittering away lives and capital in Afghanistan, Turkmenistan's old nutjob ruler finally kicked the bucket and the new guy changed the game.

In the past, Turkmenistan was hampered by a couple of obstacles in getting its gas to market. First, the former Soviet states were crap for paying on time, but their options were limited -- they were the only ones they could get it to easily, from a strictly geographic standpoint.

Second, Turkmenistan's policy had always been to award foreigners the crap oil and gas fields for exploration, and keep the good ones for themselves. This seemed a good strategy on its face, but the problem remained lack of capital to develop the resources -- to do it right, you need money to make money, if you follow.

The damnedest things started happening in the past year or so. In December, the big board completely changed as Turkmenistan not only awarded a Chinese state-owned company exploration and development rights on its best oil and gas field, but also completed a pipeline to China's grid, through Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.

Leaving Afghanistan to sit like a midwest Main Street after the interstate bypasses it.

This will make a little more sense with a map:


...The blue lines are what we're talking about: natural gas pipelines. The dotted ones are "proposed," meaning unbuilt (for obvious reasons). The solid ones are done. Notice the two that would bring gas to the West -- the TAPI and Trans-Caspian -- are still sitting on the drawing board. And there's about zero reason for Turkmenistan to care if they get finished or not, they've got a fantastic buyer in China -- China will take all they can send.

So really, after December, I was pretty sure we'd see the troops leave Afghanistan with little fanfare. Politically it would've made perfect sense, economically there's no reason to be there, strategically Afghanistan's completely insignificant.

Imagine my surprise when we didn't.

Here's the thing: anyone who's studied the history of the area knows we screwed it up but good when we left in 1989, right after the Soviets withdrew. We had armed an incredibly young (demographically-speaking) and poor country to the teeth, and just split when the Red Menace was defeated. That it sank into fundamentalism, deeper poverty and despair courtesy the Taliban is completely unsurprising. There was just no compelling reason for us to "care" about it, much less send in troops or money to fix the situation.

We broke it. But we sure as hell weren't going to fix it.

But Obama seems to have a different opinion on the matter. To me, the only reason we could still be there is to actually try to fix the mess we made. Nothing else even begins to approach that as a motivation.

Even the well-heeled "feed the military-industrial-complex" theory doesn't float in Afghanistan. If you know the military, you know the money's in the fancy technology. It would've been the easiest thing in the world to continue pouring troops and dollars into Iraq to feed the MIC, and it would've cost far less political capital to do so.

But Afghanistan is a low-tech war, lots of sand and mud and boots and bullets. Not profitable for the MIC, no matter how big it gets.

What I've been left with is the impression that this administration is seizing the opportunity given it -- much as the last did, in its cynical and greedy way. But in this case it's to right a wrong we did to a country that didn't deserve it.

The irony of thinking this has become a war with a "noble" or "just" cause for fighting it is not lost on me, anyone who's followed my ramblings in the past would be hard pressed to find much jingoism. But it's all we're left with as far as motivation.

Ask any soldier who's done both whether they feel better guarding an oil derrick in Iraq, or going after real "bad guys." And they are bad guys. No one could disagree Afghanistan would be better off were the Taliban gone. We are engaged in that pursuit at the moment, at great cost of lives and treasure, with no "energy prize" at the end.

And if the effort is indeed successful by July 2011 as planned -- and at this point I see nothing but good signs indicating it will be so -- we will have done something huge, noble, and worthwhile with armed troops for the first time in a generation.

If being surprised and pleased about that idea makes me a "warmonger," then the term has no function any more, and I'll wear it -- along with "liberal" and any other labels that don't mean what they used to.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Citation for that map?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I believe it was from the Asia Times
...but a quick Google image search shows several similar maps. I'll have to look a little if you're truly curious, but there are plenty of maps that show the pipeline(s).
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting and thought-provoking. Thanks for posting it.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. +1
Definitely interesting.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is by far THE BEST historical-to-current accounting of the situation in Afghanistan
I remember you posting about the pipe line many other times as well. Thank you for the effort you have put into tracking this story.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I find your post frustrating on two accounts:
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 12:51 PM by Adsos Letter
1. That "short reads" seem to be the hallmark of our day,

2. That lack of "nuance" also seems to be the hallmark of our day.

Excellent, informative post. A well reasoned argument that stands (or falls) on the information you presented, not on appeals to emotion. Personally, I think it stands, and does so quite well.

Thanks, Robb.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh yeah, K&R...
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arthritisR_US Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. +1. n/t
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. okay. i read your entire post.
i hope you're right.

it would be nice to believe it is for noble purposes, and you make a very compelling case for just that. the problem i see is that war started over oil/gas. i don't believe war should ever be an means to an end, but it is what it is. the kicker is, as you stated, in December, the big board completely changed in Turkmenistan.

our lack of patience has cost a lot of lives. if we had been a little more patient, and not inflamed the entire region, we could have easily bid for these contracts.

i personally don't believe that war is noble, but my opinion is not the only opinion. i can understand where it would appear to be the noble thing to "see it through". as always, i just feel there is always a better way through diplomacy, rather than boots, bullets, and bombs.

i don't believe you are a warmonger.

K&R
i recommend because this should be discussed, and i'm glad to see polite conversation about this topic. thank you Robb.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. The thing is we can't "fix" anything in the region, not by using the military
As we've seen in Vietnam, as we're seeing in Iraq now, it doesn't matter what we do, how much money and manpower we pour in, nothing, none of that matters because when we pull out, whenever that is, anything we touch, from the PM on down, is going to be considered illegit by the local people and they will tear it down, violently.

All we're doing by staying over there is making matters worse. With every civilian we kill, with every bomb we drop, we are making things worse.

It is time to stop the bleeding, cut our losses and get out. Yes, there will be a period of initial, purging bloodshed, but as I said that is going to happen no matter what. So get it done now and leave the area in peace.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. In order to fix it though, you need the Military to control an armed force that would not want it
fixed.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So then you're stuck,
Can't fix it with a military presence in the area, can't fix it without that military presence in the area. My suggestion, pull the hell out of there, let what's going to happen, happen (yes, I realize that it's going to be nasty and ugly, it will be thus no matter when we pull out) and try to come back in later, without the military and pick up the pieces.

All we're doing now is adding to the body count.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. pretty much.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was writing about this when you were
A singularly un-dingbatty post.

:toast:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Very interesting OP...
I find nothing in it to which I would disagree.

Very well written.

Recommended.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Robb is NOT a dingbat.
Thank you for posting the history of your thoughts regarding Afghanistan. It seems to me that your position has always been well reasoned. I can't see how anyone could label you as a warmonger. But then labels and accusations fly around here like crazy, with little regard for the facts.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. My thought exactly... Robb is far from a dingbat...
Though... we may have to call him one from time to time :P
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent post, even if I disagree with the conclusion.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 01:19 PM by JackRiddler
Please accept my apologies for having underestimated you in the past. This is a well-informed and informative post.

Where you lose me in the final section is in the lack of a precedent for American arms having accomplished an improvement in a country's situation at any time since the immediate post-WWII period. At most you could say South Korea was saved from unification under the Kims. Assuming there was a credible Soviet threat to take over Western Europe, it was countered, but without a shooting war. Otherwise, it's been a long series of transparent imperial interventions and undeclared wars, overt and covert, with horrific consequences for the target nations. With what standing can the US military machine now step up as the improver of lives?

Furthermore, you argue that the Obama admin is only now seizing an opportunity to do just that on the Afghanis' behalf. However, just as the planning and geostrategic motivations for the original invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq preceded 9/11, so too did the plans for the present escalation in Afghanistan precede the election of Obama. After the reported long debate before Obama's announcement of the escalation last year (which struck me as kabuki), the proposal he advanced was essentially the one presented already at the beginning of the debate by Gates, Petraeus and McChrystal, and protested vigorously by Ambassador Eikenberry. Gates and Petraeus are Bush appointees who took up their present positions, including a role as the head planners of the Afghanistan war, prior to Obama's inauguration. McChrystal was advanced to commander of the US forces there in 2009, but after having played a role in the Bush torture complex. Am I supposed to believe they are now committed to the new civilizing mission handed down by Obama, which happens to correspond to the plan they had before his arrival?

I fully agree with your assessment of how the map has changed to foil the original neocon visions for Central Asia, and for Iraq as well. At this point, Afghanistan has indeed largely devolved into a struggle for a patch of dirt. However, there is a precedent of the US continuing to fight lost military adventures for the purpose of saving face as a credible superpower. That's why it took five years and 20,000 American dead (and another million or more Asian dead) for the US to leave Vietnam after the Tet Offensive. And of course the self-perpetuation of high military spending is always in the background as a motive in itself.

Finally, even if we grant your thesis that the Obama administration hopes not merely to "leave with honor" but also after securing a better future for Afghanis, two aspects of the current strategy and tactics seem to contradict that. The use of any bombing from the air, let alone drone attacks, with inevitable (and I believe unconscionable) civilian deaths leading to an understandable hatred of the Americans, would seem to be counterproductive to such a goal. Furthermore, you have to wonder about the motivation for expanding the military actions into Pakistan. This is, after all, now the "AfPak Theater," and even if you argue that US actions are intended to and may indeed effect a better situation in Afghanistan, the US actions in the neighboring country, including bombing runs that the Pakistani military does not approve, appear to be creating a far bigger problem - for Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the United States.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Not at all
...and thank you.

Working backwards from your thoughtful points: expansion into Pakistan --specifically the FATA -- actually underscores the likelihood of good intentions. With Taliban leadership having withdrawn into Pakistan mountains (or Karachi now, if you believe the news), the simplest strategy for face-saving would be to topically "secure" Afghanistan and split. Not escalate into the mountains of Pakistan.

The political fallout from drone attacks has not been insubstantial, particularly from Pakistan, which suggests they were/are something the administration really, really thought/thinks are worthwhile; but it's also important to point out it's the only option Pakistan has tacitly allowed. We can't put troops on the ground in the FATA to Taliban leadership without freaking them out.

Instead, if you believe the inference, we've sent a boatload of last year's weapons to placate Pakistan, and have escalated the drone attacks in the FATA dramatically. Unlike Al Qaeda, the Taliban have leadership that can be killed and captured. The mafia model works better than the terrorism one, IMO.

As far as plans for the escalation being drawn up ahead of time, I'm obviously in no position to know but I suspect you're right. My belief is that we're witnessing political Jiu-Jitsu, with the fundamentals of the plan remaining the same with some rearranged goalposts. Time will tell, of course.

Finally on the notion of whether American arms have a poor track record for bettering other nations, I have no illusions about this and agree completely that there is neither precedent nor moral authority for such an attempt. A situation that has not deterred many more (and less) foolish than this president, I'd add, from trying.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. The only thing that I find false is the "noble" part.
This is nothing more then blatent politics of death so democrats don't appear weak or "cut and runners". That makes this endeavor even more repulsive.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. face-saving and attempting to preserve American prestige
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 01:40 PM by bigtree
. . . are also credible explanations for the continued attempts to 'fix' what we helped break in Afghanistan.

What I find completely indefensible is the notion that the U.S. beneficence can overshadow the consequences and effect of an offensive U.S. military force actively engaged in attacks on segments of the Afghan population.

It stands to reason that the military is needed to protect the foreign service workers who parcel out the American-generated aid and development resources; and it makes sense that the regime we encouraged into power would need the force of our military to defend their exercise of control and influence from Kabul outward.

What doesn't make sense is expecting the residents of Afghanistan to regard our invading forces as anything more than empire-builders and opportunists just because we come in and sprinkle our beneficence and 'protection' behind the line we draw in the dirt with our advancing forces. The groups who are charged with the task of distributing the assistance have complained loudly about the implications of the aid and assistance appearing to be a mere supplement of the military mission (instead of the reverse that you seem to be arguing here)

As in Marjah, and reportedly next in the Helmand province, the orchestrated invasion and occupation of an insignificant piece of land and the scattering of resisting locals to other parts of the country; and the installation of officials to lord over the residents who remain from the regime we admit is structurally and functionally corrupt is the game behind all of the shifting of troops and rushed deployments of new recruits to the Afghan combat zone; the imposition of an American (Western) style form of government on a primarily tribal society.

Gwynne Dyer, writes (correctly) that the misadventure in Afghanistan is "just another post-imperial guerrilla war . . ." (http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20100302/Opinion/3020367/-1/googleNews)

. . . The current generation of Western officers are in denial, as if the past half-century didn't happen. They parrot some of the slogans of the era of guerrilla wars, like the need to win the "hearts and minds" of the population, but it's just empty words. The phrase dates from the Vietnam War, but the tactic didn't work there and it isn't working in Afghanistan.

The plan, in this offensive in Helmand province, is to capture the towns (clear and hold), and then saturate the area with Afghan troops and police and win the locals' hearts and minds by providing better security and public services. It might work if all the people involved on both sides were bland, interchangeable characters from The Sims, but they are not.

The people of Helmand province are Pashtuns, and the Taliban are almost exclusively a Pashtun organization. The people who the Western armies are fighting are local men: Few Taliban fighters die more than a day's walk from home. Whereas almost none of the Afghan troops and police who are supposed to win local minds and hearts are Pashtuns.

They are mostly Tajiks from the north who speak Dari, not Pashto. (Very few Pashtuns join the Kabul regime's army and police.) Even if these particular Afghan police are better trained and less prone to steal money, do drugs and rape young men at checkpoints than their colleagues elsewhere, they are unwelcome outsiders in Helmand.

This is just another post-imperial guerrilla war, and it will almost certainly end in the same way as all the others. Thirty years ago, any Western military officer could have told you that, but large organizations often forget their own history . . .


. . . true that. 'Nuff said.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Unlikely. Obama is not about saving face. He's always admitted his mistakes and moved on.
And after Iraq, there is no way of preserving American prestige.

The most likely explanation is that Obama feels a responsibility to put the region back together and leave it in better shape than we found it.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. The president relies on the advice of his civilian defense and military leadership
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 04:30 PM by bigtree
. . . which is comprised of holdovers from the last administration - Petraeus, Gates, Jones, Mullen . . . Their 'presitige' is wrapped up in attempting to finish the enterprise they conjured, implemented, and escalated. The president's interest and concern would be about the consequences and effects of the image and projection of American force.

The notion that the U.S. can 'put the region back together' with the limited number of troops and resources committed and available strains credulity and is without precedent. The offensive activity of our meddling force in Afghanistan and the grudging, offensive attacks against 'al-Qaeda' targets across the border in Pakistan further muck up the notion of 'leaving (the region) in better shape than we found it'.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Ok, that is a fair point. Perhaps, but I also believe
Obama has his own goals in mind and is smart enough to manage the advice and the bias that comes with it from his military advisors.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. It's not his own face he'd be saving, though it might be his ass...
Which is to say, if he didn't engage in the saving of "American" face as judged necessary by militarists and chess-playing geostrategists to maintain credibility as a military superpower, he would be pilloried in public as a cut-and-runner, a danger to the country, practically a traitor - by more than just the Teabaggers.

Programmatically he played everything for caution already during the campaign, seeming to assure he didn't disturb power centers who might have sunk him. The vote on the FISA bill, support for the bankers' bailout, and the clear signal that he intended to see an escalation in the "AfPak theater" were part of that package.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. kick
because it's worth reading
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. One of the problems with your synopsis is there are no "good guys" in Afghanistan.
On the one hand you have a corrupt Karzai and the warlords. On the other, the Taliban and the insurgents.

This is a problem best left the the regional players. Pakistan, India, China, rather than the American/European powers who are dedicated to "picking up the white man's burden" and installing a sort of European style "democracy".

As I see it, Obama and the Pentagon are now looking for a face-saving way out of a lost war. A Nixonian "Peace with Honor" strategy to avoid facing a justifiably angry public. They are doing so by "doing something" to the cost of the Afghan people.

I've never bought the "pipeline" theory of cause. Rather, it was a PR move by Bush to "smoke 'em out" and the usual braggadocio that politicians use. Now, it's a further extension of PR to cover politician and Pentagon asses for a massive FUBAR of a war that should never have happened.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. You think being a war-apologist makes you "unpopular" on DU? Maybe in 2003, but not on NU-DU 2010!
Today, up is down, left is right, we've always been at war with Afghanistan...
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. yup, whatever Obama is for, so is DU. If we are not in danger
of imminent attack there is no reason why we should bomb and occupy another country ESPECIALLY when the "puppet" folks we want to install are as nasty as the "evildoers" we are fighting against. WE CAN"T AFFORD IT for one. this is not rocket science. I have no patience for these IDIOT rationalizations from the chickenhawks that support whatever Obama is for.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Sorry, but that's incorrect.
My last poll put 80% of DU respondents against the current Afghanistan plan.

You may feel it lends your arguments some strength to appear in the oppressed minority, but this is not one of those times.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Terrific Post, I May Have To Rethink Calling You A Dingbat
K&R
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kick & rec in the hope of a civilized debate.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. The troops largely don't support Afghanistan either, and many aren't buying the propaganda.
Iraq Veterans Against the War voted to protest Afghanistan early last year. Yes, we're fighting for an oil pipeline (I know soldiers who've protected the damn thing.) But there are a ton of geo-strategic reasons why we're there-- none having to do with the well-being of Afghanistan. We are not "fighting the bad guys." We are bad guys who abduct and torture civilians, shooting child, and disappear people over vague rumors. Sure, we are bad guys fighting guys who are also bad.

The Taliban are an ethnic organization with no goals of regional expansion. They are monsters, but so are the warlords we support--and so are we. The only genuine organization that I know of worth supporting in the whole damn country is RAWA. http://www.rawa.org/index.php

But of course we don't support organizations of leftist women.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Post endorsed for mentioning RAWA.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. +1
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. You get points for the nod to RAWA, good org
...but lose them when claiming to know soldiers who have protected an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

There have never even been plans for an oil pipeline, and the natural gas pipeline never began construction.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
37. Kick for the evening. nt
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R for a well thought out and well researched post.
I disagree with your conclusion, but your facts are hard to argue with.

I don't think we're sticking around in either war for noble purposes. I think it's more a combination of people being bought off by promises of sweet contractor money come campaign time and the fear of looking weak on defense. I hope you're right and we ARE there for noble purposes, however misguided they may be.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. I was against Afghanistan in 2001 and I'm still against it..
Afghanistan is far more a social, political and development problem than it is a military one.

The US will never put the kind of non-military aid into Afghanistan long term that it's really going to take to fix the myriad deep problems there. We are very good and generous when it comes to dropping bombs on brown people, far less so when it comes to extending a helping hand..

One million dollars per soldier per year is a lot of profit for the military-industrial-congressional complex (Eisenhower's penultimate draft of his farewell speech).

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
40. Kicking
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