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My two bit’s worth on Toyota’s problems. “And forty-two”

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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:50 PM
Original message
My two bit’s worth on Toyota’s problems. “And forty-two”

It’s a software problem. If not that it’s EMI (ElectroMechanical Interference) or RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). Nothing mechanical that I know of can cause the symptoms of either brake or accelerator issues they are experiencing.

That said, I’m not a Software engineer, EE or ME. I made a living working closely with all three on systems very much like what we’re talking about.

First, how Drive by Wire works:

In the old days you stepped on the gas and a lever moved the throttle on the engine. Now you step on the gas and an electron position sensor tells the computer where your foot is and sends a signal to a motor that moves the throttle. There are lots of very good reasons to do things this way; it’s cheaper, it lets you isolate the passenger compartment and one system can be used on lots of vehicles. We’ve been doing this on aircraft for decades without a problem.

With cars the computer will make adjustments to the input signal (where your foot is) and the output signal to compensate for external conditions. Cold? Add a little extra throttle. Turn on the AC? Boost the idle speed a bit. In its most basic form this is an IF/THEN command and there may be dozens of them imbedded in the operating system or every function. Under very specific but unpredictable conditions the operating system may instruct the system to do something bad. Remember the HAL 1000 in 2001, A Space Odessy? Well, sorta like that. This sort of thing is usually de-bugged in the beta phase of testing and if not can be duplicated and repaired once found. If identified it can be fixed with a software update (GM could do it by On-Star and you’d never know it) or by a simple chip replacement.

Then there’s EMI/RFI. We live in a soup of magnetic waves and always have, from solar flares to cell phone signals. All this energy generates tiny electrical impulses in everything including the wiring system of Toyotas (and everything else). That’s why you can’t use a cell phone on airplanes or in ICU rooms. Sometimes the impulses mimic signals the operating system is expecting, like maybe where your foot is on the throttle. This is a harder fix because it’s a shielding issue. In aircraft everything is either enclosed in conductive material or has devices to absorb extraneous energy inputs (filters). In aircraft money is no object. In cars every last $.0001 matters. The last year Ford made the full sized Thunderbird it came in $800 over budget (on a $25000 car) and they fired the whole engineering team. In aircraft the Government says, “You WILL make it safe,” and in consumer goods we say, “You WILL make it cheap.”

So the problem isn’t with Toyota, it’s with people. We want everything for nothing. No new taxes, maintain the pricing on cars even though they’re 100x better than they were, supersize that meal even if I’m not hungry and lets all go to Walmart.
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed -nt
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder if anyone has mapped the incidents to see if interference is the cause?
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condoleeza Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I wonder if this was a conspiracy to help US auto sales n/t
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Aw,come on. eom
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It probably won't be instructive because there's sooooooo much
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 04:03 PM by flamin lib
in the way of EMI/RFI today.

Back in 1969 I worked as a mechanic at a Dodge Dealership in Houston. The latest buzz in high performance was electronic breaker-less ignition. We had a Hemi Charger that died on the way home from work every day. Wait ten minutes and it would start right up and there were no other issues. We spent months working on the problem and finally had a high tech guru come down from the factory and ride in the car with what was then state of the art equipment.

Turns out that the route home took the car past a microwave tower owned by the local news channel and it uploaded the day's broad cast at the same time the vehicle was line of sight between transmitter and receiver.

We "fixed" the car by changing the route home.

Today the sources of EMI/RFI are so ubiquitous that finding a single source isn't possible.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. could cell phone interference cause this? if they cause issues
in hospitals with certain equipment...maybe they do the same in cars to some degree...

if this is a stupid question...forgive me...just wondering.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hah, no cell calls or texting in toyotas.
All the young folks will now have to drive Buicks.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The answer is Who knows? There's a sea of electronic signals
out there and there always have been back to the big bang. Remember back in the day when sun spots shut down the grid in the NE?

It's a naturally occurring phenomena, we've just added a few new frequencies. However, if a system is prepared properly the signals get filtered out.

The Pentagon has been doing research into "hardening" systems since the '50s to protect against nuclear EMP. Now it's not a big deal to protect against, just more expensive than not protecting.

I have no reason to believe that EMI/RFI is responsible, just postulating a thought on why it's happening and why it's so hard to fix.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. If they know about the EMI/RFI of today then that is not the problem
if they know they design around that, if they really care for human life that is. If they don't know then yes that could be a problem and if that is the case they should be shut down now and be forced to give people their money back for vehicles they've sold to an unsuspecting populace.
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. Really great post.
Informative on the problems, which applies to every car maker not just Toyota, and I really appreciate the sentiment "we want everything for nothing".

A big K and R


(and I still am not ashamed to admit I'm more than a little bit happy to see the "Toyotaisgod" crowd cut down to size.)
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. EMI = Electromagnetic interference
but that was an honest mistake, judging from the rest of your post.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ah! yes, you are so correct. Sorry for the sloppy language and thanks
for the correction. Language is important and mangling a technical term is worse than most mistakes.

Thanks also for your forbearance.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. On an unrelated related subject
Maybe you can tell me if you have had any electrical trouble with the GV650 (assuming you still have it). 5,000 miles is way too early to be having starter trouble. Could be corroded/oxidized contacts, hopefully I can find something this weekend.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm at about 12,000 miles and it's still a dream. You might want to
check the battery. I had a hard time with starting at 8000 miles. If I charged the battery everything was fine for a day or two but then it wouldn't crank. The battery tested okay but I bought a new one anyway and things have been great ever since. I'm using the old battery on a 1M candle power spotlight to hunt pigs at night and it performs to amp/hr expectations.

Seems the 11.5:1 compression is kinda hard on cranking amps. Big Harleys have the same problem--battery tests fine but it won't crank fast enough to start.

If I didn't thank you before for alerting me to Hyosung let me do it now. It's a joy to ride; light enough to dart around in traffic, handles well enough to drag the pegs and faster than a bat out of hell. Can't tell ya' how many people ask, "What is that?" ;-)

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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm surrounded by computers
Love them, work on them, fix them.....but I don't think I'd want one controlling my car.

We forget that in the grand scheme of things, we are only a short way into the digital revolution; a change in the way humans operate that compares with the advent of the stone age and the industrial revolution.

At the moment, I'm still kind of attached to brakes and throttles that can be visually inspected for damage and wear.....
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. A very understandable sentiment. But, and there always is one
I had a 1998 Mercury Cougar that did a run-away on me. The mechanical linkage incorporated a small nylon bushing that cracked letting the throttle lock in the full open position.

Power breaks are vacuum assisted, so with the throttle wide open there was no engine vacuum and no breaks. Very exciting at 70 mph on the moderately crowded freeway. I finally got to the far right hand lane, turned the ignition to OFF (not locked) and used the emergency brake as well as extreme pressure on the foot break to come to a safe stop. It was fixed for free on a "service bulletin" (almost but not quite a re-call).

My point is that mechanical connections are no more reliable than drive by wire. They can be inspected by the layman but aren't so what's the point? We believe that the things we use every day are reliable and when they aren't it comes as a shock and surprise.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. I want to differ with that
this is a TOYota problem, a corporate problem not a human problem. TOYota is still in denial and thats the biggest detriment to this whole fixing it process.
I doubt seriously if TOYota will survive this looking at all like the company it was
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Your spelling of TOYota reminds me of an old joke.
When Toyota and GM first engaged in talks about joint ventures many years ago the word was that in keeping with GM's naming practices (ie Chevette, Corvette) the new car would be named the Toylette.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Fits 'em
Toylette
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. My bet: hack via WiFi network introducing malicious virus into car's interlinked computers
I'm betting Toyota interlinked WiFi access with onboard computers for "silent", background software updates unbeknown to drivers.
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. A report I heard about this problem
spoke of a researcher who was able to duplicate the Toyota problem by deliberately causing a short across two of the sensor connections into the computer. The response was an immediate uncontrolled acceleration and the computer recorded no error code making the fault virtually untraceable. He theorized that rain, ice or condensation could cause such a short and lead the uncontrolled acceleration.
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