Musings on Capitalism. ( God, what a dry topic. Oh well, here it is anyway. )

[Kablooie]

I'm obviously no economist and I'm sure these are elementary points for many of you but here goes.

Capitalism in essence is a productive, effective system. It channels the human qualities of greed and self-interest into a form that is productive for society at large. It has produced improved products and services over the years just like the theory predicts. When businesses compete, each must find ways to produce better products and services while still maintaining a profit or perish.

But there is an inherent catch 22 built into the system. Competition must be maintained to be beneficial society, but the aim of a capitalist businesses is to eliminate competition. To practice capitalist free trade is to destroy it.

Conservatives want unfettered free trade for corporations believing that this will expand the benefits of capitalism. In reality this will eliminate free trade all together and produce a world of self interested monopolies or cartels. The focus becomes the exploitation of society for the benefit of the corporation.

Anti-trust laws are an attempt to patch up this flaw by limiting the freedom to conduct anti-competitive practices.
Capitalism itself is a broad theory that is runs on universal traits. Anti-trust laws, in contrast, are a patchwork of specific instances and defined remedies for each. They are artificially defined and enforced and therefore are have much less authority than capitalism itself.

Capitalism is powered by human nature which is an undeniably strong force. Anti-trust laws are empowered only by the will of the enforcers which varies depending on who is in charge. It seems that in the long run the ultimate drive of capitalism to become an exploitative force must prevail due to the imbalance of commitment between the two sides of the equation. This seems to be playing out in today's society.

I'm sure part of the health care crisis is due to the fact that insurance companies have a "get out of jail free" card in respect to anti-trust laws so they are free to act as a Monopoly. (Parker Bros be damned.)

It's disturbing to know that so many people in power think the essence of capitalism is to increase individual profits instead of what it should be, to insure the continuation of competition. This misinformed view will bring on the death of the very thing they think they support and create a world in which few people will want to live.

[Greyhound]

1. "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the

most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." - John Maynard Keynes

"Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force." - George Bernard Shaw

It's simply a matter of power over people, the consent to steal the product of others to benefit the favored. - Greyhound

[Kablooie]

2. Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true

[Joe Chi Minh]

3. Precisely. Man does not exploit man. Well spoken.

[Kablooie]

5. I read it as under Socialism man exploits man. That's the reverse of man exploits man.

You switch the two men.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. I ken. Just pulling your leg.

[Greyhound]

14. The difference being that the exploitation is limited by the foundations of socialism. n/t

[On the Road]

4. I Think of Capitalism

as the workhorse that plows the fields. The purpose of the horse is benefit the entire farm. The animal has to be cared for and controlled so that it is the most productive it can be.

Too many people want to either punish the horse on principal or give it whatever it wants. Neither is right -- business activity has to be controlled for the benefit of the whole country.

[immoderate]

6. The horse that plows the field is not capitalism. It is the exploited worker.

If it's cheaper to kill the horse than to maintain it, that's what will happen, unless there is outside regulation. Capitalism is the owner of the farm and its job is to minimize costs, externalize expenses, and maximize profits.

Unless the horse belongs to a union, or is under strict anti-cruelty supervision -- he's fucked.

--imm

[On the Road]

7. Well, Aren't You the One to Switch Metaphors!

Sorry ace, it's my metaphor. And it's a damn good one. You don't seem to get it.

[Kablooie]

8. You're both wrong.

The John Deere that eliminates the need for the workhorse is the metaphor for capitalism.

The workhorse is trotting around some rich neighborhood with a factory owner's daughter on his back.

[On the Road]

10. OK, I Overreacted

:blush:

but this was supposed to be a discussion of capitalism, not labor.

Like a lot of things, the capitalist system is a terrible master but can be an invaluable servant.

No one works harder than the Chinese. And the Chinese never worked harder than they did during the Cultural Revolution. But all it got them was privation and political slogans. Even though Mao tried to harness competitive forces by pitting geographic regions against each other, his efforts didn't have the discipline of the market behind them, and they failed miserably.

Once the country decided it would rather catch mice than have a particular color of cat, the economy exploded. That's what the capitalist system can do. Now they need to control it and adjust for the negative effects.

[immoderate]

12. Capitalism and labor...

It's hard to talk about capitalism without considering labor. If you employ labor, you are making a profit from their efforts. This is exploitation. In the case of Chinese workers, it is particularly bad. If you don't employ workers, e.g. automation, you are creating goods without paying salaries so people can buy them.

Capitalism has the effect of funneling wealth upwards, and concentrating it. It's an unstable system, particularly as the world gets developed and resources become scarce. It requires a crash so the overlords can start over again.

--imm

[On the Road]

13. All Other Economic Systems

have labor, too. You can labor under a monarchy, a communism, or some form of state-controlled economy.

When we're talking about the advantages and disadvantages of capitalism, it's in reference to other economic systems, not to the divide between ownership and employees.

[immoderate]

15. How can you compare economic systems and ignore how they treat labor?

In a socialist system it's labor that controls the capital. :shrug: BTW, all these systems have capital too. So should we ignore capital as a factor?

I submit that you are taking capitalist ideology as religion, and not subjecting it to critical examination.

--imm

[On the Road]

16. In What Economic System Does Labor Control Capital?

In a statist socialist model, the control is strictly rhetorical. Workers have fewer rights, not more.

The Western-European model are still capitalist economies. State-owned enterprises are the exception. What they do more successfully in control businesses, which is the point I was making. Capitalism is the engine of efficiency and growth. Most developed countries do a better job than the US of distributing the fruits of those enterprises among the population. The US seems to treat capitalism as an end in itself.

[immoderate]

17. How do you reconcile growth with limited resources?

What do you do when the work runs out due to automation?

--imm

[On the Road]

18. I Don't Understand the Point in Reference to Capitalism

vs. some other system, or even to the issue of labor introduced later.

Are you suggesting a command economy that eliminates growth based on your projection of resource limits? Including the effects of a zero-growth economy on people's lives? The same things were being said in the 1970s. Imagine the world now if governments had implemented these kinds of programs then.

Government is needed for a lot of functions, but resources getting scarcer is actually one of the things handled better by market forces in most cases. If you haven't noticed, the world is adapting to changes in resources year by year.

[immoderate]

19. I guess I didn't notice what a great job they're doing. Never mind.

--imm

[On the Road]

20. They're Doing a Terrible Job

except for every other economic system. I just thought there was a point to all this.

[immoderate]

22. Guaranteed self destruction.

--imm

[moondust]

11. Capitalism is an engine of rapid development.

It exploits the worst of human nature--greed--to rapidly develop material things. People race to build a better mousetrap in the hope of it making them filthy rich.

When was the last time you came across a significantly better mousetrap? Or a significantly better "New, Improved!" laundry detergent? etc. In other words, there are limits to its usefulness in the service of mankind.

[blindpig]

21. Capitalism is great for Capitalists.

For the rest of us capitalism is theft. Capitalists steal the labor of workers, that is where their profits come from. Better products and services are secondary to turning a profit, consider the auto recalls. Capitalism cannot be regulated, not for long, regulation gets in the way of unfettered profits.

Capitalism does not exist for the benefit of society, it exists for the benefit of the capitalists, that's the problem.