What does it take to survive this job market?

[MercutioATC]

The same thing it takes to survive as a species...and it's something we've been doggedly moving away from.

Diversity.

Robert Heinlein said "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.".

Despite my respect for his recognized intellectual forethought, I used to disagree, at least in terms of occupation...based solely on the demands of the market (the market that is now dead).

Heinlein was right. Diversity is the key to success...and survival. Roaring economies and good job markets may mask it, but one must have diversified talents in order to survive the downturns.

We may need to preserve a certain number of specialized individuals (Stephen Hawkings comes immediately to mind) but we should be encouraging a diversity of skills and talents for most people. Specialization IS for insects.

Got 10 years of sales experience? Learn Photoshop or website design. Whatever your field, find little ways to make yourself more valuable. Often, the decision of whom to fire and who to retain comes down to little things.

Alternately, learn about something that may have nothing to do with your job that you have a personal interest in. It may not help you keep your job, but it'll give you experience doing something you like to do...which often leads to success (often, in unforeseen ways).

Diversify. Specialization is for insects.

[leftstreet]

1. How come rich people never have to learn new skills? n/t

[MercutioATC]

4. Because "rich people" never really have to work?

If one has money, one has no real need to keep a job to make money.

The rest of us do.

[MindPilot]

7. Because they need us more than we need them.

Think about it; when was the last time you needed a rich person? But every rich person needs a plumber, carpenter, electrician, lawyer, mechanic, accountant, bricklayer, pilot, etc, etc.

[HughBeaumont]

65. And it's just that reason that I cannot stand talking to the wife's friend's husband about economics

He's a Libertarian (really, a Republican - "Teh Jesus" + "Teh Weed") who once said when one of us wanted to go back for a master's degree . . .. "Geez, how many degrees do you need?" As if he didn't see what certain people now need to advance in life, thanks to people like him running corporations.

Oh yeah, this "rugged individualist" works for daddy's company as a Director of IT.

[tabbycat31]

95. they're in their own world

my sister and BIL went to one of the most expensive schools in the country. They both had multiple job offers on the table six months prior to graduation, and their interview process consisted of meeting with a company rep in the school cafeteria at lunch time.

These companies have zero interests in hiring the average Joe who worked their way through college. They will only hire from the elite colleges. If you go to State U, fuck you. Most people do not make close to 6 figures at 22 and just out of college.

[piratefish08]

2. a high level job in the banking or insurance industry will probably help you ride out the storm.

[MercutioATC]

5. I'm speaking in more general terms.

We don't all have access to high-level banking jobs.

[piratefish08]

73. I understood your post - that was just my lame attempt at humor!

I enjoy your posts, by the way!

[MercutioATC]

110. You're one of the few...

Most here accuse me of "blaming the victim".

I'm trying to present ways to avoid becoming the victim in the first place.

[Orrex]

118. Don't pretend that we don't understand you, simply because we disagree with you

We read you and Heinlein and Alger loud and clear, thanks.

I'm trying to present ways to avoid becoming the victim in the first place.

Sure, and those "ways" amount to making yourself a willingly underpaid patsy.

"Diversify," you exhort us. "And after you've shown that you're willing to be paid substantially less than what you're worth, maybe you'll buy yourself an extra month before you're downsized by someone who's never even heard your name."

[DCBob]

3. Its a scary time now... economic Darwinism..

Survival of the fittest.

[MercutioATC]

8. Agreed. My thought is that the definition of "fittest" has changed.

In a good job market, "fittest" often meant "most qualified in the field".

In this job market, "fittest" often involves diversity.

[DCBob]

23. The probem is jobs and careers are changing so fast that most normal human beings cannot keep up..

The vast majority are not capable of changing skills rapidly enough to match the job market. That why I said its a scary time... many will be left behind.

[MrMickeysMom]

6. On the other hand, some human beings are talented at few things...

Anything else might be asking for trouble. What if you've taught special education and are good at it? Could you teach out of that specialty without some difficulty? Maybe not, but I know that you might be pretty miserable with that stretch, not to mention investing in more school.

What about health care? (that's personal for me) Some of us are already doing lesser versions of what we specialized in before for more money. Without going back to school (after many years and much school, then continuing education for our licenses), it's breaking the bank.

No, I don't care much what Heinlein says, sometimes you need someone who's very good at what they do, and not just willing to survive working on your mind or body.

[MercutioATC]

12. If you work at McDonald's, learn basic first aid and CPR.

1) They're both valuable skills to have, and

2) they may make you the more attractive employee when the axe has to fall on somebody.


CPR training and fast food serving have nothing to do with each other, but the diversity could help a worker keep their job.

[MrMickeysMom]

19. That's good for anybody on the street, but do you think anyone cares at Mickey D's?

I think the answer is "no".

[MercutioATC]

22. Maybe, maybe not...but it DOES make one a more valuable employee.

...and some employers (even McDonald's franchise owners) will realize that.

Regardless, there's no downside to taking advantage of a free first aid or CPR course...or a multitude of other inexpensive training programs.

[MrMickeysMom]

24. Perhaps no "downside", but certainly, it will take more to "survive" the job market...

I'd like to add, people should read. They should go to public libraries and read papers, as well as use the internet (at library, usually free, too).

This kind of knowledge, I feel, will arm more to survive these times.

[MercutioATC]

35. It's not a cure-all, but it IS an important factor.

I agree that people should be well-read...and I see that as another means of diversifying beyond the restrictions of one's job requirements.

[nickinSTL]

9. I'm a librarian

a cataloger.

However, in grad school, I concentrated in Information Architecture, I've contracted with my company to rework the online catalog, and am now working part-time in our IT department in "web services" - a lot of what I do has to do with software - I've researched and led implementation of open-source alternatives for a couple of tools we use.

I'm also the "expert" on what's coming in cataloging at our office.

I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of making myself useful.

[MercutioATC]

14. So you've diversified.

...and it seems to be working for you.

[WCGreen]

10. Spot on....

[MercutioATC]

16. I'm still a few short on his list of requirements, but I'm working on it.

I DID just do something completely different and start a new liquor brand.

I'm almost a year into the process, and you should be able to evaluate the fruits of my "diversity" in about three months.

[WCGreen]

17. Cool....

[susanna]

11. I have always agreed with Heinlein in this regard.

I have also always been looked on as goofy, in one way or another. So not sure I can bolster your case! :)

[Orrex]

13. Perhaps if I had a sentient supercomputer on my side, I'd agree with Heinlein

In the real world, however, a diversification of job skills will only get you as far as the next round of layoffs, after which--I presume--we can all bootstrap ourselves into exciting new skill sets that will get us through to the next batch of firings.

It is in a corporation's interest to trivialize and minimize the individual, unless that individual joins the company already well-placed or well-connected. Everyone else can be (and eventually will be) cast off like excrement.

The "Diversification" model of professional Darwinism assumes that the playing field isn't controlled by the top players. Well, that isn't how the world works, so here's how to do it:

1. Inherit vast wealth.
2. Purchase a number of Senators and/or Representatives.
3. Do whatever you have to do, legal or otherwise, to ensure that you retain your wealth and position.
4. Fuck everyone and everything else.

There is no rule book, nor even a reliable guidebook, for anyone not in the privileged top 2%. Anyone who advises anything to the contrary is delusional or else stands to benefit financially from creating the delusion in others.


In addition, Heinlein couldn't write dialogue worth a damn, and his female characters are preposterously badly developed.

[MercutioATC]

25. Heinlein's later writings had strong female characters.

Gwen Novak is a lot stronger than many real-life females I know.

...and if you're convinced that the ONLY way to achieve success is to be born into it, you might as well just drink the kool-aid now.

The job market IS a lot more selective. Many people don't have the ability/training/intellect/mindset to survive. Regardless, I believe that diversifying one's talents IS a valid way to maximize one's chances of success.

[Orrex]

30. In twenty years in the workforce I have seen no surer guarantee of success than birth

Diversification is nice on paper, but I have yet to be convinced that it's an effective strategy in practice.

They will look at your resume and say the following:

"Wow. MercutioATC has studied Photoshop and Oracle and SQL and can drive an 18-wheeler. Well, Jim has been working exclusively with Photoshp for 15 years, and that kind of deep skill is really what we're looking for."

So you'll be passed over, and when Jim has outlived his usefulness, they'll downsize him and hire somebody cheaper.

[MercutioATC]

45. Allow me to introduce myself.

My great-grandparents came to this country with nothing. Being Italian and Irish, people weren't lining up to hand them anything.

My grandparents were lower-middle class. One of my grandfathers lost a leg at Pearl Harbor. One of my grandmothers worked in the factory that built electronic components for the first Apollo mission.

My mother was a teacher (later, a caterer and now the full-time nanny for my sister's children). My father left the seminary to pursue a business degree and has been working as an executive in numerous failing charities to get them back into the black.

I did not come from privilege.

I have said that I was given the advantage of good genetics by my parents...which has resulted in some negative comments here at DU. Let me rephrase and claim that my parents gave me two things...a genetic history free of major medical issues and an atmosphere of support. To the degree that things like intelligence and inherent aptitude are a function of genetics, I owe that to them, also.

My parents divorced when I was 8. I grew up on a farm in Ohio. In 10th-12th grade, I qualified for, and attended a private high school...on scholarship. We didn't have the money to pay tuition.

I attended three years of college (mostly funded by scholarships and grants).

Since then, I have been a telemarketer, a factory worker, a salesman, and a police dispatcher. 19 years ago a took a test and became an air traffic controller.

I've been involved in national ATC projects and been an instructor. Now, I'm just keeping planes from bumping into each other.


I have a job that pays about $165k/year. I'll retire in 6 years...at 48. I'm not "wealthy", but I'm doing better than many...and "birth" had little to do with it. (I've also just started my own liquor brand that will either fail miserably or turn me into one of these "wealthy" people many speak of).

I consider myself "successful".

Being born to wealth is not the only way to achieve either wealth or "success".

[Orrex]

48. Congratulations. Your experience is not my experience.

As I've mentioned, in every job I've ever had, the privileges of placement and birth have trumped--in every case--the virtues of skill and dedication.


I'm pleased for you that life has permitted you to follow a course not available to a great majority of skilled, hard-working individuals.

[MercutioATC]

55. The point of my post is that I'm nobody special.

I don't believe that everybody has had the same advantages as me, but unless you believe that I'm just the luckiest bastard on the planet, you have to allow that my level of relative success is available to nearly everybody.

It's not an exclusive club based on heredity. Anybody can get the same results with some initiative and creativity.

[Orrex]

56. Sorry, but that's the Horatio Alger delusion

I don't believe that you're the luckiest guy on the planet. I mean, you might be, but how the hell would I know?

Instead, it is my view that at key points in your life you have benefited greatly from opportunities not available to most people. Your final years of high school, your free ride through college, your chance to become an ATC. Analogous opportunities do not occur in everyone's life.

Anybody can get the same results with some initiative and creativity.

Sorry, but that's bullshit at least 99% of the time. I would love to live in the world in which initiative and creativity are proportionately rewarded with success and security.

Unfortunately, I live in this world. It's a world in which incompetent assholes do very well because they know how to schmooze. It's a world in which someone gets a solid job because his dad happens to golf with the owner of the company. It's a world in which no amount of creativity or initiative will overcome a lack of opportunity, nor will they produce real opportunity, in spite of claims to the contrary.

A friend once advised me that the key to success is a consistent effort, but he was wrong; a consistent effort will result only in a demand for increased effort at the same pay rate or less.

[MercutioATC]

58. Bullshit..Practically EVERYBODY'S specific details vary from the norm.

Feel free to bathe in your sense of inherent lack of opportunity...but it doesn't really exist.

[Orrex]

68. Yeah, that's why we've got double-digit unemployment

I can't walk down the street without hearing someone griping about having too much opportunity. It's just so hard to decide which yellow brick road to follow when the world is your oyster and everything's coming up roses.

[MercutioATC]

84. I'm not denying that it's a lousy job market.

However, there IS opportunity for a lot of people.

Again, I believe that the well-rounded stand a better chance of both getting a job and keeping it.

[Orrex]

98. Again, your experience differs from mine

Again, I believe that the well-rounded stand a better chance of both getting a job and keeping it.

To an extent, maybe. But if a job needs four skills and fifty people have those four skills, then it won't make a difference how much time or effort you've put into mastering the other dozen skills.


Let me state again that I'm not speaking from theory or imagination: I've seen this happen many times to many people.

[northernlights]

83. if you continue to have a good run until you are 80 or so

I'll consider you the luckiest bastard on the planet. Until then, you just hit it lucky for a while.

I was born middle class, the 3rd granddaughter of greek and yugo immigrants. I was supposed to be an illegal abortion. My eldest sister remembers being bounced off walls by her hair. When I was 14 my parents started going away weekends and leaving me locked out in the street in our upper middle class neighborhood. My father apologized to me once in my life, when I was 16. He said, "I'm sorry. It's my fault your face is so ugly. You got your acne from me. Nobody's ever going to want to marry you, you're so ugly." He walked away muttering, "I don't know what we're going to do about NL. Nobody's ever going to marry her, she's so ugly."

They put me through college to impress the neighbors, but always discouraged me from going into math or science, where I was gifted. So I got a useless liberal arts degree.

I survived by working fast food, then moved up to data entry, receptionist, admin assist. Finally got a chance at 'project specialist' and then communications specialist. I saved and slaved and worked my way up to project manager and then program manager. Peaked at $125K. Then came the high tech bust and 9/11.

Dumped and unwanted at 48. Spent the last 10 years being robbed a chunk at a time. Now I'm 56 and in school, this time being robbed and ruined financially by the state university.

So give it time, Mercury. You've got some money saved? They'll come after you too. One way or another.

[MercutioATC]

111. My current situation is no more "luck" than your $125k salary was.

Sure, most people hit streaks of success that they deem "good fortune", but we make our own luck.

Your success was a product of your work. Be proud of that.

[northernlights]

127. I am proud of it

and I know how hard I worked to get there. But I also know that there is an element of luck in everything.

And that not only was my career, which I worked so hard to build, destroyed by the economy, but my retirement fund as well.

That if you continue your current run until your in your 80s, not losing your hard-earned savings to thieves or illness, then I'll consider you the luckiest damn bastard in the world.

Christopher Reeve had a great run of luck...until it ran out. That doesn't mean he didn't work hard, as well as play hard, but he lucked out genetically, in a loving family to raise him, etc.

Same with Randy Pausch. Fantastic genes, great upbringing, hard working/playing...until his luck ran out.

[Cid_B]

62. Its only 1400 so I'll give it time...

but I'll bet this qualifies as whiniest post I will read all day. I'll come back and let you know.

[Orrex]

69. I can't tell you how little that means to me.

My assessment based on long experience. If your circumstances have allowed you to believe that you've played a major role in your own professional destiny, then I congratulate you.

[Cid_B]

86. Well.. its 2100 and guess what...

You win! Congratulations. I know you were waiting breathlessly.

Seriously though, what a whiny bunch of tripe. The only people who succeed have it given to them or are just lucky bastards. Right...

It's like the mating call of the perpetual loser in here.

edit: typo

[Orrex]

89. You've understood nothing that I've posted

I haven't claim that personal effort plays no part in one's success; I've asserted--correctly--that luck and external forces play a much larger role. All the drive and diversification in the world are completely trumped by one decision by middle management.


I've seen far too many talented, dedicated, and skilled professionals kicked suddenly out of the workplace for me to believe that the individual holds the cards.

Sure, it's nice that you can change a tire and weave a basket. It'll give you a good story to tell while you're waiting for your unemployment check.


EDIT: noun/verb agreement.

[Lyric]

15. Pffft. Tell that to the universities.

At this point it's like a one-track race to the diploma podium, without many stops for anything broader than your major in between. :(

[gristy]

18. Rather than diversify, I recommend refreshing and upgrading your skills within your specialty

Some diversity is beneficial, but a prospective employer generally isn't going to care about your wide-ranging skills. He only cares how well you can do what he needs you to do. Yes, if you diversify, you'll have more prospective employers, but none of them will be happy with your skill or experience level. Diversify too much and you'll only be able to do lots and lots of things badly.

[MercutioATC]

21. My girlfriend is the perfect example of the benefits of diversity.

Hospitality Management degree. Work experience in food and beverage.

She started as a hotel's "food and beverage supervisor"...managing the restaurant and handling catered events.

She's also proficient with a lot of computer platforms (Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc.).

She wound up doing a lot of the hotel's advertising flyers, and parlayed that into a Sales Cordinator position. Once in the Sales Coordinator position, her sales (on top of her coordinator duties) got her a Sales Manager position.

...and each promotion came with increased job security and a raise...even in this job market.

Her value (and success is based on two things. She works hard and her skills are diversified. Had she not had these qualities, she would most likely be unemployed right now.


I agree that one has to be proficient in their chosen field, but there's a lot to be said for diversification.

[Orrex]

40. With due respect to your girlfriend, that story just makes her an anecdote.

For every person employed with her skill set, there are 10,000 unemployed with her skill set and more.

She's an example of what can happen when you hit the lottery. It's great that she's had the skills and opportunity to advance, but if she'd worked at the neighboring hotel instead, she'd still be supervising the food and beverages.

[MercutioATC]

49. Perhaps.

Unless one believes that she's especially lucky, however, her actions must be taken into consideration. She CHOSE to have the skill set she does and that choice has been of advantage to her.

There are countless people who live healthy lifestyles who die every year...but that's not a valid argument against living a healthy lifestyle.

Diversification is a healthy career lifestyle.

[Orrex]

51. She *is* especially lucky, as are you, based on the story you revealed

There are countless people who live healthy lifestyles who die every year...but that's not a valid argument against living a healthy lifestyle.

Yes, but there are countless people with dynamic skill sets and ironclad determination who are nonetheless downsized and held back right alongside their less well diversified and less dedicated coworkers.

The framing of your point suggests that one is chiefly--or even largely--responsible for one's own failure to advance. I submit, in contrast, that other factors weigh far more heavily on one's opportunity and ability to get ahead.

[HughBeaumont]

72. Yeah, I'd believe the whole "you're responsible for YOU'RE failure" thing . . .

. . . if I weren't seeing people with Master's degrees and/or 10-15 years experience getting laid off and tossed like garbage. What, did THEY not persevere or "work hard enough"?

[Orrex]

90. Thank you--that's my point exactly.

Apparently they should have gotten seven or eight Masters' degrees so that they could make themselves employably diversified.

[MercutioATC]

97. Who said anything about Master's degrees?

Think small. I'm talking about learning stuff like Powerpoint...or reading industry news to get a handle on trends. It can be easy to do little things to make oneself a more attractive (and valued) job candidate/employee.

[Orrex]

102. As was noted elsewhere, computer proficiency is a required default skill on par with basic literacy.

I can do things in Word, Excel, and Access that my former company's IT staff couldn't manage and couldn't figure out even after I'd done it. It was a nice set of skills for which I received no additional compensation and no increase in job security. In short, I gave my company a better employee than they were paying for, and in the end it was still irrelevant.

In fact, that's the recurring theme in your posts: give your employers more than they're paying you for and pray that they decide to reward you for it.

To that end, I might as well agree with you, because it underscores my assertion that the best job-skills in the world are trumped by the whims of the company.

[Raineyb]

94. So basically your girlfriend is willing to do more work without extra compensation.

Her computer skills, with all due respect are a given it is not an example of diversification. Employers expect proficiency with computers especially the office suite. And her doing the hotel's advertising flyers means they didn't have to spend money on a graphic artist who probably has more training on the making of effective flyers than someone who dabbles with Photoshop but apparently the hotel didn't care all that much about the flyers to hire one.

Your anecdote doesn't really make your point.

[MercutioATC]

101. In the short term, yes.

...and that willingness to use extra skills (an F&B Supervisor isn't required to be able to do marketing) on an occasional basis has gotten her through three rounds of layoffs and netted her about 33% in pay hikes.

(by the way, the management company DOES contract with an ad agency for promotional materials, they just liked her concepts better)

[Raineyb]

114. I find that most employers will continue to ask you to do extra work without compensation rather

than give you a raise or a promotion.

And they can claim that they liked her concepts better but you don't really know that do you? What we do know is that they saved on the expense of paying for the ad agency by using her concepts. I'm pretty sure that savings had a lot to do with how much they liked her concepts better.

[stray cat]

20. Making yourself indispensable

[Orrex]

26. If you make yourself indispensible, you make it the company's mission to dispense with you

No corporation will willingly suffer the presence of an "indispensable" worker for very long.

[MercutioATC]

29. I completely disagree.

Will they pay you what you're "worth"? Probably not.

However, they'll keep you...and, in most cases, the people who control hiring/firing/promotions are reasonable people...they recognize value and they realize the advantage in promoting people who have a lot of different takents.

[Orrex]

32. I have seen many "indispensible" workers downsized and retired

Your model suggests that people need to accept that a corporation won't pay them what they're worth, and you put scare-quotes around "worth."

That comes across as: take what they give you, because you aren't as valuable as you think you are.


It's a card game, and they shuffled the cards and picked out the best 51 for themselves.

[Fumesucker]

34. If you are too competent you become a threat to your superiors..

In theory the competent person should get the promotion but that's very often not the way it works.

If you are perceived by your superiors as a threat to their own position they will often go well out of their way to see that you do not remain a threat.

[Orrex]

37. Exactly correct.

And it doesn't stop with one's immediate superiors. If your boss has a long working relationship with her boss, then it's entirely likely that her boss will work to pigeonhole you, too. So that's at least two people in the equation who have more power than you do, and both of them are working--to some degree or another--to prevent your advancement.

It manifests in countless ways: ignoring or downplaying your achievements; changing the goalposts; remembering or over-emphasizing your mistakes; etc.


I don't doubt that others believe that the corporate world works by some other mechanism, but this is entirely consistent with everything I have ever seen.

[raccoon]

74. Sometimes it's better not to be too competent...Like Claudius. nt

[Fumesucker]

39. Maybe not the "company" per se..

But if you make yourself indispensable your immediate boss is going to be looking over his own shoulder wondering when you're going to be coming after his job..

Being skilled politically and willing/able to "play the game" counts for more in many workplaces than any amount of technical job qualifications.

[Orrex]

41. In practical terms, it amounts to the same things.

It's a rare company in which one has recourse to go over one's boss' head to plead one's case directly to that boss' boss.


It is absolutely true that you need "to play the game" in order to advance, and it's absolute bullshit.

[Feron]

43. As a former neighbor once told me...

"If you're too good then you're no good."

Diversifying skills is great and should be encouraged, however there's no sure thing. Nobody should fool him or herself into thinking that he or she is indispensable.

[upi402]

27. In my field specialization is guaranteed work, oddly

The OP is correct, but of course there are exceptions. The special skills are what makes someone indispensable in my field.

[MercutioATC]

31. Interestingly, mine too (and I'm the OP).

I'm an air traffic controller.

I could get an MD, a JD, and a PHD in physics and I wouldn't be any more valuable to my employer than I am now.


...but I'm not characteristic of most employees.

[upi402]

42. You gave great specifics in your post

especially for a specialist.

I have 4 specialties in a field with 24+, but now employers want deep mastery in one. I have to take CE course every year, working or not, to stay current.
I heard some ATC tales on the old Air America radio. Sounds like a meat grinder.

[MercutioATC]

52. "Meat grinder" is relative.

Regardless, we're 25 years of work and eligible for retirement (mandatory retirement at age 56). It's honest to say that it's a young man's job.

I realize that there are exceptions to my claim in a professional sense...but I've seen a lot of people who spent years complaining (rightfully) about the job who became eligible for retirement and either stayed or went to work again an an ATC-related job...because they didn't have anything else to do.

I've always stressed one thing to my son: give yourself options. The more diverse your skills/abilities/needs/wants, the more options you have.

[galileoreloaded]

75. Don't forget the 24 hour workweek!! n/t

[MercutioATC]

92. 24-hour work week?

That's a job I'd like.

[Orrex]

100. Not if it reduces your salary to 40% of what you're currently making.

And you'd probably lose your benefits, too.

[MercutioATC]

103. Gotcha.

I don't understand what that has to do with either the OP or my post, though.

[Orrex]

104. Perhaps I misunderstood that other poster

I took it as an acknowledgment that, in some industries, the work-week is being shortened to save on payroll costs and--nominally--to help protect jobs. So instead of 500 full-time employees with benefits, they fire 100 and wind up with 400 part-time employees with no benefits, and they demand that each remaining (surviving) worker produce 250% of what was previously acceptable.

[galileoreloaded]

116. Had a buddy who was out at Luke AFB in the mid-90's.

And he was limited to 24 hr in the tower. He had a nice second job somewhere else though, and made a killing.

Then he went to live on the Azores. Poor, poor guy.

ETA 24 hr per 7 days

[Fumesucker]

28. The graveyards are full of indispensible men..

-General Charles DeGaulle

[MercutioATC]

33. You and I both know that DeGaulle was using a completely different definition of "indespensible".

His statement was a statement on perceived indespensibility...which (in his argument) is often defined by specialization, not diversity.

[Fumesucker]

36. No, his comment was regarding the fact that no one is indispensable..

Since we all die eventually and yet civilization continues then it becomes clear that no one is truly indispensable.

[MercutioATC]

47. Yes, we DO all die.

...which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

By your argument, nobody should ever strive to accomplish anything...because we'll all be dead eventually.

[Fumesucker]

54. So if you can't be indispensable then you aren't going to strive for anything?

My argument has nothing to do with striving or not striving, it has to do with the fact that none of is is truly indispensable.

[MercutioATC]

59. ...and I'd argue that we all have the opportunity to be indespensible.

Granted, it depends on context, but small change is still change.

[Orrex]

71. You have no real basis for that claim

By your own assertion, you've been in the same field for 19 years. You have no direct idea of what other industries are like, nor how they react to "indispensible" workers. As I've said previously, I've seen any number of "indispensable" workers downsized--whole departments of them at a time, in fact.

You have succeeded by walking a path that many before you have walked and failed. Perhaps you attribute this to your valuable skill set and your general indispensability, but the reality is that circumstances have come together for you while for others they have not.

I'm sorry if this clashes with your view that we can all grab the brass ring of diversification. You speak from your experience; I speak from mine, which contrasts sharply with yours. No matter how indispensably diverse you make yourself, unless you achieve independent financial security, then you are entirely at the mercy of a corporate world wholly beyond your control.

I hope that you're never in a position to have to witness this first-hand.

[tonysam]

106. What in the HELL is the OP doing even WRITING about something

he or she knows NOTHING about? It's BLAME THE VICTIM time.

We who have been there have DONE this fucking retraining and diversifying shit for decades; it doesn't insulate you from what is going on in the real world.

[MercutioATC]

108. Right, because my current job means I can't have insights.

I haven't always worked for my current employer. I've spent time working in the private sector, and I've been laid off.

I do have some direct experience with the topic.

[2Design]

38. move to India, china, south america or get a government job like the rw

they are against government but hey are taking it over at all levels and guaranteeing themselves benefits, retirement, health care

[XemaSab]

44. Word

I think the key is to stop thinking of yourself as a "marketing specialist" or a "programmer" or a "roofer," but instead think of yourself as someone with budgeting experience, or database experience, or construction experience.

Keep it broad, and look for other things that you can plug into.

[MercutioATC]

53. That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

The job market has stressed specialization for decades. For both professional and personal success, I think people have to start focusing on a more diverse set of skills and/or interests.

[Berry Cool]

46. What Heinlein said is very poetic and oft quoted...by people who could never meet his criteria

for what a human being "should" be able to do.

Let's review.

Change a diaper? Yeah. Pretty easy to learn. Worst part about it is the smell.

Plan an invasion? Well, the military will pay you to learn how, so it's doable if you meet the standards for acceptance into the service.

Butcher a hog? Better apprentice yourself to someone at a slaughterhouse. Maybe a farmer will teach you for free.

Conn a ship? OK, you can join the Navy and they'll also pay you to learn that. Doable, if you can get in.

Design a building? How big? Is a doghouse OK, or do I have to go to college for architecture, because that's gonna cost me.

Write a sonnet? Learned how in English class. Doable by most people probably, even if it's not a good one.

Balance accounts? Well, if you can do your checkbook, good.

Build a wall? Give anyone some bricks and mortar and they can probably figure out the rest.

Set a bone? Now you're talking med school. Pricey.

Comfort the dying? Well, you could volunteer at a hospice. But please find out what you're doing before you say something stupid.

Take orders? Don't we all?

Give orders? First someone has to entrust you with the responsibility.

Cooperate? If you graduated from kindergarten, you should have this one down.

Act alone? Who hasn't had to?

Solve equations? If you graduated from high school...

Analyze a new problem? Also doable by anyone.

Pitch manure? Ah, some people are way too good at that.

Program a computer? No longer needed in our world of off-the-shelf software. Nice to know, but not as essential a skill as everyone was telling us it would someday be back in the early '80s.

Cook a tasty meal? From scratch or with convenience foods?

Fight efficiently? Define "efficient."

Die gallantly? No one's gonna be able to prove they can do that before the time comes. And the truth is, some people never get the chance to cop a pose before they die, so while it makes for a nice turn in the movies, it's not really necessary.

I could just as easily write my own list. "A human being should be able to clean a litterbox, plan a party, butcher a cockroach, conn a bicycle, design a Web site, write a newspaper article...

[MercutioATC]

50. I believe you're missing the point.

Heinlein's list wasn't a specific list of tasks...it was an illustration of diversification.

Your list (as far as you took it) is equally valid in the given context.

[glowing]

57. The ant specializes, but without its role within the colony, there would be a collapse of the colony

There is no reason I should fight a war and change a diaper.. first, war is stupid, and babies only need diapers until about 2.. and I am not signing up for life like the Duggars... What we need is pitchforks and torches.. and then we wouldn't have to worry about wearing 100 different hats and being half assed at all of our tasks.

[MercutioATC]

60. A forest is made of trees.

A man (or woman) is made of who they are, which is both defined and quantified by the sum of their experiences and actions.


I don't have the benefit of your inexperience. I'd fight a just war. I would (and have) changed a diaper.

Not to single you out, but this mindset is one of the things that hobble us.

[glowing]

61. Its not exactly what I meant.. and I think you know that. Of course there are common

things that most of us all learn to do.. like cook, clean, drive, etc. etc. If you do want to set up a society that is fluctating from job to job, then the society must pay for the training and for the household viability in the "off" years that the top %r's decide to offshore another sector of the job market.

[ChicagoSuz219]

63. I would add...

...be flexible, think creatively, lose your ego, be willing to learn something new & think of it as an adventure.

I reinvent myself all the time. It's fun!

[Greyhound]

64. Work for your daddy. n/t

[AngryOldDem]

66. Good advice, but...

I really question the realism of this "follow your passion" mantra when it comes to gainful employment. If you can really do it, more power to you. But I'm not deluded as to convince myself that this is the answer to unemployment.

I guess another ingredient needed to survive in these times is resilience, which many people just don't have anymore. This "recession" has beaten it out of them.

And...as other people have said...don't underestimate office politics in who goes and who stays. Often it's not what you know that determines your fate, it's who you know. I've seen and heard of far too many walking Peter Principles to think otherwise.

Good, positive post, though. I'm just having a hard time buying into it right now.

[LaydeeBug]

67. ... a busy corner and a swinging pocketbook. LOL!!

I think that about answers it. :)

[melm00se]

70. how to survive in this job market?

a few things:

1) have a highly marketable skill, something that can't easily be outsourced or replaced by technology.
2) be successful at what you do: Don't just skate by, be one of the top 10% at doing what you do, IOW: as close to indispensable to your employer as humanly possible.
3) be low maintenance: give more than you receive when it comes to your boss.
4) be the top boss/owner (no one can fire the owner)

as to why the "rich" don't need new skills? it's because, for the most part, they have mastered some or all of the above 4 so they are highly valued by their organization or they own the organization.

(BTW, if you believe that rich are born that way, read the Millionaire Next Door, it is an interesting study of millionaires).

[ipaint]

82. Sounds like the same advice they gave to housewives

regarding their husbands in the fifties. I believe the term among workers is lackey, brown nose, toady etc.

Malcom X had an interesting description of the phenomenon among slaves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_to_the_Grass_Roots

The only reason the top 1% have mastered any of those skills you list is because you allow them to master you. That millionaire next door needs an abundant supply of low paid disposable workers to finance his/her rise to the top, lifestyle, investments and upkeep. Because of that fact the "survival of the fittest" business ideology is a cheat. A scam. Something stolen by the few and only made possible on the low paid backs of the many.

There was one example recently of a business run humanely. They show up every half dozen years (they are that rare) as an example of the right way to build wealth through out the business regardless of employee status.


American Heart: Owner of Multi-Million Dollar Company Hands Over Business to Employees
'World News' Asks Bob Moore, Owner of Bob's Red Mill Natural Food, to Share His Secrets of Success, as Part of the Series, 'American Heart'


http://abcnews.go.com/WN/owner-multi-million-dollar-company-hands-business-employees/story?id=9875038

Of course these employees had ESOP so distributing the wealth was an integral part of the business for a long time. Employees don't have to become bosses to live comfortably and provide for their families even in a recession.

The real problem is the 99% of bosses who steal that wealth from their employees and then claim they alone earned it.

[ipaint]

76. The neo liberal version of pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

The elite and their middle class gatekeepers pull it out every recession. They spouted this nonsense continuously while shoving through nafta. Every time the wealthy hoard the taxpayers wealth through some new scam this bullshit meme in various versions is trotted out in order to shift blame and divert attention. It has the added bonus of training folks to produce more and earn less. That's certainly convenient.

Tom delay was out and about regurgitating a version of it yesterday.

You can de-specialize yourself till you are blue in the face. At some point for most of us the color of your skin, your gender, your health care needs, your class, etc. put an end to the idea that hip-hopping from trade to trade builds anything but a series of entry level mini careers to nowhere. Then reality hits in your 50's, having already retrained through several recessions all for naught and folks in their thirties and forties start blathering on about reinventing yourself, you realize it's a fuckin' scam.

We have a criminal and deadly wealth hoarding problem in this country. Until that is dealt with you might as well retrain weaving baskets for all the good it will do you in the long run. We are all going down with this ship. Unless you are part of that elite club of wealth hoarders at the top, being under the impression that twisting yourself into knots to prove your loyalty to them every seven years will save you is a fools game.

[GoCubsGo]

78. Yep. Pure bullshit.

I can't tell you how many interviews I've had where the prospective employers would rave over my resume and my "diverse" experience. A week later it was, "You have stellar credentials, but you haven't done XYZ. We hired someone else who has." And, the disgusting thing is that I could easily do XYZ, as it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it. But, no one seems willing to understand that we're not all ignorant dummies who are incapable of easily picking up new tasks. This coming from ignorant dummies who rave about my resume, but are incapable of making the connection that I had to learn new things constantly in order to list all those things on my resume.

I'm being told I should "retrain". Retrain to do what??? How the fuck am I supposed to pay for more schooling when I can't even find a job to pay for my living expenses? I am 49 years old. Do I have to move back in with my parents in order to "retrain"? GMAFB!!!

[Blue_Tires]

120. +1

and I'm another of those who has a resume full of 'well-rounded diverse experience' for the past decade...Of course, the H.R. flaks I talk to (when I even get an interview) usually prefer I had a decade's worth of experience doing the job I'm applying for...

[KG]

81. I went back to school twice in my 30's. I've already 'retrained' 3 times.

didn't help me keep my old job, hasn't helped me get a new one.

[MercutioATC]

87. So, what's your solution?

Do you really believe that there's a disadvantage to being multifaceted?

We have the employment situation we do. I believe that having diverse talents will help people succeed, even in this job market. You have a better plan?

[Orrex]

96. Being multifaceted can certainly be a disadvantage

If your diversification comes at the expense of acquiring the necessary depth of a particular skill, then the employer or prospective employer will say "thanks for coming in, but we've decided to go with another candidate at this time."

In the short term, the main thing diversification achieves is a greater cost benefit for the employer, because they'll get a worker with more skills who's working for the same pay.

[KG]

77. a wonderful theory. not much application to real world stupidity.

i was the most intelligent, diverse, and professional person at my last job.

i could've done the other employees jobs an addition to mine, but they didn't have my core skill set. but i was the first laid off. and the owner was too hidebound to see i was the most valuable employee in the office.

and that wasn't the first time that's happened to me.

[MercutioATC]

85. I'd argue that your situation is the exception rather than the rule.

I know that doesn't help, but you DID take the right steps.

[KG]

88. my experience is not exceptional at all. not even in my own working life.

[MercutioATC]

91. It's true that a lot of competent people are losing their jobs.

I don't care HOW diverse somebody is...if the company decides to cut a certain number of jobs, any given person is subject to being let go.

However, those who diversify...those that do the little extra things that nobody else can do...have a better chance of survival.

[Orrex]

93. By my count, you've told at least two people that their direct, real-world experience is incorrect.

Yet we're supposed to accept your pie-in-the-sky assessment of the virtues of diversification?


As I've stated previously, your experience is not other people's experience.

[MercutioATC]

109. I said no such thing.

I maintain, however, that having a diverse array of skills will help most people either get a job or keep the job they have.


It's kind of a no-brainer...but something that many overlook.

[ipaint]

112. I maintain you are wrong.

Job Retraining May Fall Short of High Hopes

"Tens of thousands of laid-off workers like Mr. Hutchins have turned to retraining as a lifeline. Yet for all the popularity of these government-financed programs, there are questions about whether they actually work, even as President Obama’s stimulus plan directs $1.4 billion more to retraining and other services for people who have lost their jobs.

In Michigan, where the unemployment rate in May was 14.1 percent, the nation’s highest, 78,000 people are enrolled in the state’s No Worker Left Behind program and 7,800 are on the waiting list. At the Michigan Works job center here, where Mr. Hutchins applied for retraining money, the wait to attend an orientation session is up to two months.

Nonetheless, a little-noticed study the Labor Department released several months ago found that the benefits of the biggest federal job training program were “small or nonexistent” for laid-off workers. It showed little difference in earnings and the chances of being rehired between laid-off people who had been retrained and those who had not.

In interviews, the authors of the study and other economists cited several reasons that retraining might not be effective. Many workers who have lost their jobs are older and had spent their lives working in one industry. In need of a job right away, many pick relatively short training programs, which often have marginal benefits. Job retraining is also ineffective without job creation, a point made by several economists who have long cautioned against placing too much stock in it. Finally, workers trying to pick a new field cannot predict the future of the labor market, especially in a time of economic upheaval.

“I can’t tell you with any degree of certainty, and I’ve been doing it for 20 years, what the hot jobs are going to be,” said one of the authors, Kenneth R. Troske, an economics professor at the University of Kentucky."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/us/06retrain.html?_r=2&hp


It's a scam.

[MercutioATC]

113. Apples and oranges.

I'm not talking about training for a completely different line of work, I'm advocating possessing a diverse array of skills.

[raccoon]

123. Well, it does help the numbers at the community college or wherever the laid-off workers

are getting their retraining. :sarcasm:

[Orrex]

115. Of course you did.

In reply to direct personal experiences in which a diversified skill-base was shown to be irrelevant to job placement or security, you simply repeated your mantra that the opposite is true. That contrasts directly with personal experience.

You told one poster that their experience was "the exception, not the rule," even though that same experience (more or less) has been retold here several times already. In minimizing that poster's experience, you are trivializing it and saying that--on the large scale--it is not the case. That's telling someone that their personal experience is wrong.

I know that you don't see it that way. Bootstrap-types never do. Instead, they sing the praises of uncompensated personal diversification and claim that such self-broadening will enhance one's workplace attractiveness. This is simply not the case, according to the experience of quite a few here.

[lukasahero]

122. I can't imagine why you were the first to be let go

Multiple times.

Of course, I don't suppose you'd consider the possibility that thinking (and undoubtedly proclaiming) yourself so much better than everyone else might have played a role?

[KG]

126. I can imagine myself telling you to go fuck yourself.

you don't anything about what i might have proclaimed. or anything else about me, so take your ignorant conjectures and kindly piss up a rope. thanks and have a nice day.

[lukasahero]

128. Haha

Have a nice day yourself! :hi:

[tammywammy]

79. The ability to recognize current trends within your industry and adapt to them

Including diversifying your talents.

[paparush]

80. I'm a programmer. At 43, I'm making myself learn as many languages and frameworks that I can.

That said, my wife and I also rode out the housing bubble, refusing to get into a McMansion; refusing to get into an ARM. We live in a 900 sq. ft. home and now have three small, simple, rental properties that are free and clear. We work hard to keep our tenants happy and they in turn have treated our properties with respect and have paid their rents on time.

[Kablooie]

99. Survival takes a good strong lock on the knife drawer.

It helps to throw away all the old ropes in the garage too.

[tonysam]

105. Why is this nonsense being spewed over here?

The problem with our economy isn't with the workers, it's with the policies which have created a displacement of millions of workers.

Easy to pontificate when you aren't one of the millions who are displaced. I have FUCKING diversity, probably more than you have, but I am 55 years old and too fucking old to be hired.

Your advice is USELESS to people out here.

[Orrex]

107. Nonsense! You simply need to broaden your skillset and rebrand yourself?

:sarcasm:

If it were truly as simple as making oneself diverse and indispensable, then we wouldn't be seeing double-digit unemployment.

[northofdenali]

117. A job. And don't, whatever you do, be over 50.

I know. I've got the skills (from Office to PhotoShop to Access), the experience (35 years), the stability (here in the area forever), the clothes! even.

I interview well. I have good references.

I'm 55.

Nuff said.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

119. what does it take? Diversity

a college degree, and an age under 40.

[Romulox]

121. Wish it wasn't too late to unrec. nt

[Common Sense Party]

124. "generalization," not "diversity"

I believe "diversity" refers to something else.

[raccoon]

125. Parents who will let you move in their basement.

Of course, if your parents are in the cemetery, that's out.

Other than that, find a man/woman you can live off of. Maybe you can do some work to earn your keep. :silly: