Kucinich: You're building on sand- You're building on a foundation of privatization of health care

[bigtree]

from Countdown With Keith Olbermann, (3/8/2010) at 06:00 PM: http://www.livedash.com/transcript/countdown_with_keith_olbermann/37/MSNBC/Monday_March_8_2010/165268/


LO: Will you vote yes for the senate bill?

Rep. Kucinich: Well, keep in mind I voted against the first version of the bill in the house. I told the president twice in two different meetings that I couldn't support the bill, didn't have a robust public option and at least if it didn't have something that was going to protect consumers from these rapid premium increases and you know what? The white house counts me as wavering.

The fact of the matter is, I listened to the president in your news story here, and to hear the president, you'd think that he was for single payor, at least a public option. But he's not.

This bill represents a giveaway to the insurance industry, $70 billion a year, and no guarantees of any control over premiums, forcing people to buy private insurance, five consecutive years of double-digit premium increases. I mean, I'm sorry. I just don't see that this bill is the solution. The insurance companies are the problem and we're giving them a version of a bailout.


LO:What do you say to the president and democrats who say, let's get it passed and then we can build on it with future legislation?

Rep. Kucinich: You're building on sand. There is no structure here. You're building on a foundation of privatization of our health care system. That's the problem. The insurance companies are the problem. They're nothing to build on. We build our hopes on the insurance companies and all we'll have is more poverty in this country. And people aren't -- people aren't going to get the care they need.

Remember, insurance companies make money not providing health care. That is a fundamental truth about our health care system . . .


full transcript of interview with Congressman Kucinich: http://www.livedash.com/transcript/countdown_with_keith_olbermann/37/MSNBC/Monday_March_8_2010/165268/

[NJmaverick]

1. Me to Kucinich- I don't care what you claim your motives are, you are helping the right wingers

and allowing people to die on the alter of your ideology. STOP IT!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[mdmc]

3. wont people continue to die?

insurance is not access to medical treatment..

[bigtree]

4. right, just access to insurance

. . . without something done to address rising costs and huge deductibles, plenty of folks will still suffer and die from lack of care under this plan.

[cali]

8. well, except the 10 billion for CHCs would go a long way to providing

people with broad primary care including dental, mental health and diagnostics and there is simply no doubt that that would save lives.

[bigtree]

9. it will unquestionably save lives

. . . and just as unquestionably leave many folks without the care they need.

[cali]

12. but fewer people will be without care than there are now

that's indisputable. I'm unsure that passing the legislation is the right way to go, but there's no doubt that it would provide care to a significant number of people who don't currently have it and that it would thus save lives.

[bigtree]

30. I've read your views on the legislation pending

I'm right there with you on the positive effect this legislation will have for tens of thousands of Americans. The effect of the entire package is something which needs to be examined as it unfolds . . . and it doesn't generate much confidence from me with the way it intends to address cost-cutting, affordability concerns. Reconciliation plans need to be well-thought out and a sincere effort to make the Senate bill better . . .

[laughingliberal]

139. Oh, it's quite disputable. nt

[howmad1]

169. Let's just hope the many uninsured live long enough till 2014.......

......when this crappy bill kicks in. Gee, Medicare for all - starting immediately sure would have been nice.

[Political Heretic]

85. You don't need this health care bill to open community health clinics.

Why don't we pass a law making rape legal that also - as a side benefit - opens up a million new free breast cancer screening and prevention centers?

Or maybe we could vote no on the horrendous part of that proposal and then turn around pass a bill supporting the latter than makes sense.

It's like its all insurance industry subsidy supporters have left to argue - OMG you're AGAINST HEALTH CLINICS? No, we're against insurance industry subsidization of the status quo.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[Political Heretic]

113. It's not comparing the bill, its comparing the insanity of believing we have to support bad policy

for the sake of good policy.

And its completely accurate.

[pundaint]

93. Why do we need to give insurers $70 billion in order to give communities $10 billion?

It is not a choice between this and nothing, no matter what the extortionists are telling us. We will get however little we accept, and this is just too damn little.

[jeanpalmer]

195. CHC's only get $1 billion

a year, $10 billion over 10 years. The entire HC bill costs ~$100 billion a year, so CHC's represent about 1% of the proposal.

As pointed out, they can stand alone. They're not in any way related to the mandated insurance system. The reason they were included was to sweeten the pot for mandates. If the current bill fails, there's nothing to stop CHC's from being funded as a separate item. They already are. The current proposal merely increases the funding.

[Better Believe It]

104. Introduce and pass a bill for CHC's. All you need is 51 votes to pass without reconciliation.

Was this thrown in just to get one more Senate vote, Senator Sanders?

[dflprincess]

121. The CHCs use the same kind of sliding income scales used for premium subsidies

there will be a lot of people who won't be able to afford care at them either if their income exceeds the limits.

[laughingliberal]

130. Then create those without the rest of it

I'm sure we could find the funding for it. In fact, they're taking $500 billion out of Medicare. They could do this under reconciliation for a lot less money and leave off the harmful effects of the rest of it.

[rhett o rick]

148. Why do you stick up for the profiteering insurance companies? Why do you fight the PO?

Why do you hate Americans and support corporations?

[NJmaverick]

15. Insurance allows access to medical treatment

some will still die but others will live

[kenfrequed]

97. Uhm

There are millions and millions and millions of people in this country with health insurance. Garaunteeing crappy medical insurance by forcing people to buy it is not the same as actually providing health care.

People that have insurance die because they cannot afford some aspect of it and without a public option this bill does not solve any of the problems of our current system.

[Greyhound]

140. Much worse, it institutionalizes in perpetuity this worst of all possible systems.

It's as if we have some kind of societal Alzheimer's, every day is the very first time we've ever seen anything so we are incapable of learning from past mistakes.

Kind of fitting that it's rooted in the election of a man with Alzheimer's disease that told us reality was irrelevant.

[GinaMaria]

100. Some die because their insurance

doesn't give them the access they need. Remove these middle men and increase access.

[laughingliberal]

131. Whoever weaseled the annual limits back in assured those with serious illness will not get as much

help as they need.

[GinaMaria]

163. None of us will get as much care. That's what bending the cost

curve means in the industry. They believe(at leasts that's the line they are pushing) people are 'hurt' by the amount of care they receive now because it is too much care. They plan to 'save our lives' by giving us less health care. Fewer tests, fewer approved meds, fewer approved procedures.... the list goes on. With less health care they reason, we will live longer. :crazy:

[donco6]

119. Medical treatment would allow access to medical treatment.

Like in . . . say . . . single payer.

[rhett o rick]

149. Are you a Democrat? Some dying is not an option. nm

[cui bono]

186. What? How have you missed all the stories of denied health care?

Not to mention there is no cost control in the bill. Even in the midst of this debate Anthem/Blue Cross raised premiums up to 70%. Insurance can only help those who can afford it, and even then you might pay out tens of thousands in premiums and get kicked from your plan as soon as you really need it. You're okay with that?

[NJmaverick]

16. Insurance allows access to medical treatment

some will still die but others will live

[mdmc]

26. I have medical insurance but it does not offer access to affordable medical treatment

at least this hcr bill has some money set aside for community health centers.

[jtrockville]

58. Insurance is a BARRIER to health care. It's a SCAM.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The health insurance industry needs to be ABOLISHED.

[harmonicon]

66. I don't see any reason to abolish it.

Here in the UK, where I may now spend the rest of my life (after living here for a few years the thought of going back to a country that treats its citizens the way the US does horrifies me), there is private insurance. People can buy it on top of the fantastic medical care that is their right to receive as a resident (its not only for citizens). I just think private health insurance should be like private roads - feel free to have them as long as they don't interfere with the public system.

[jtrockville]

89. I could support that if it's optional.

Instead of discussing a "public option", we should be discussing a "private option".

[harmonicon]

133. exactly (nt)

[donco6]

120. With a good public option, that would work.

That way, those who need health care have it, while those who want an additional layer of insurance on top of their basic health care can buy it.

[harmonicon]

137. it works like a charm here

The NHS covers everything reasonable, but if someone wants to - for instance - have their own room when they have to go to a hospital, or go to a doctor who has exclusive patients with a fancy office, they can pay for that. However, noone else has to suffer when people make those choices.

[donco6]

168. Where do I sign up? Oh, wait, I still live in CRAZYWORLD.

So I can't.

[harmonicon]

171. just come over - they'll treat anyone.

I've only been to a doctor twice in the three years I've lived here, but both times were easy: once for a tetanus booster shot, and once for tonsillitis (not the super bad kind - just the "take these antibiotics" kind). I would imagine that they have some sort of way to ensure that people aren't coming to the country for medical treatment, but if it's an emergency, you'd be treated. It really is a great system. There is a lot of bureaucracy involved with it, but PATIENTS see known of it - you give your name and address when you go to a doctor or hospital, but that's just for record keeping. Sure, the US has 5 times the population of the UK, but I don't see any reason why basically the same thing could not be done in the US; it even makes medicare seem complicated.

[Flaneur]

70. I'm with you. If I may paraphrase my college roommate's screed:

"Smash the fascist parasite that preys upon the people!"

[PHIMG]

116. +1000

Private Health Insurance IS THE PROBLEM, not the solution.

EXPAND MEDICARE to EVERYONE!

[Political Heretic]

83. Insurance does not allow affordable access to medical treatment

for millions and millions of American families who have it.

[Raineyb]

54. Yes they will but some people think that passing any old piece of shit bill is

better than actually addressing things like that. It's more about party than it is good policy for them.

[dflprincess]

122. The truly important thing for many is that Obama signs a bill with "health care" in the title

what's in the bill doesn't matter.

And, even though we're told this scam is the "best they could do" with the majorities they have, we're suppose to believe that they'll "fix" it later. I predict the only fixes we'll see will be to items that insurance companies want changed.

[Wapsie B]

153. Makes one wonder why people worry so much about having Democratic control

if the party will turn around and essentially claim to be powerless to do better, or anything of real benefit to the public?

[laughingliberal]

132. Yeah, but we'll get a nice signing ceremony in the rose garden

and we can gloat at the right wingers...til the bill kicks in and everyone finds out it costs too much and helps too little, if at all.

[HughMoran]

11. He could care less if he destroys the Democratic Party

So long as he 'stood on principal', it matters not if thousands will die due to not going for healthcare until they show up in the Emergency Room with Stage 3 cancer. Oh, and don't expect one iota of compassion from anybody who thinks criticizing Obama is our duty - apparently it's our duty to (hypocritically) NOT criticize Kuch - for he is beyond reproach.

[bigtree]

20. destroy the party?

The party has never been in danger from the congressman's proposals or votes. I think his record on voting with the party is a funny way of working to 'destroy it'.

And again, with this vote, his position appears to be inconsequential to final passage, so I'm at a loss to see just what he's supposed to be 'hurting' (or allowing to die) by voting against this bill.

[AllentownJake]

27. They need a scape goat for more bullshit policy

Hey the organized labor crowd is mad at us, if only Dennis hadn't done that. Hey the teachers aren't manning phone banks...fucking Dennis.

What the peace groups told us to fuck ourselves when we asked for canvassers? Dennis!

Gay people aren't happy because we can't even get rid of DADT with the Joint Chief of Staffs asking for it to be repealed. DENNIS!!!!!

[laughingliberal]

134. Obviously, it's all his fault. So much better than holding our other leaders accountable. nt

[HughMoran]

28. If he is the single vote that kills it AND he attacks Dems whenever he speaks

I can't think of a better weapon for the Republican party.

[bigtree]

31. that doesn't appear to be the case, on either count

the republicans use strawmen too

[HughMoran]

34. It was asked point blank of him and it is what he said

You are assuming that he won't be the deciding vote - that's not been decided yet and you know it.

His harsh undercutting of the Dems on this bill is also very bad for the Party, since he claims to be 'on the team'. It makes the Dems look like they can't even hold together on their most critical issue - it's very bad for the Party.

[liberation]

64. So, being an actual Democrat undermines the Democratic Party? Wow, the DLC logic makes less sense

with every passing of their spin cycle.

Basically it comes down to this, no? A moderate liberal like Kucinich, is helping the far right because he is not supporting moderate conservative policies. Wow the logical dissonance is glorious on that argument.

[harmonicon]

69. +1

[NorthCarolina]

199. +1

[Cronus Protagonist]

75. You live up to your moniker

Dennis is progressive, which is NOT what I can say about the Democratic party as a whole right now.

[suzie]

158. Dennis talks progressive and votes Republican.

That's a funny definition of progressive.

[rhett o rick]

164. Blue Damn Dogs vote consistantly with the repukes, Dennis votes progressive.

You dont recognize it thru your DU-DLC distorted glasses.

[laughingliberal]

136. They can't hold together on their most crucial issues

At least not in any way that benefits the people.

[rhett o rick]

150. It's bad for the "Party"? I cant believe you put the Party before American lives. Are you a

DU-DLC'er?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Individualist]

49. You're confusing Kucinich with DLC

It's their goal to destroy the party.

[harmonicon]

67. Have you ever seen "Old Yeller"? (nt)

[RufusTFirefly]

81. Oh cool. So when we blow it in the midterm elections, you can blame Kucinich.

How conveeeeenient!

[Political Heretic]

84. Thousands will still not go for healthcare under this bill.

Since this bill does nothing to address the cost of care itself.

There's a simple truth here - what Kucinich is saying is in the best interests of ordinary people.

What Obama is saying is in the best interest of the status quo, big money interest such as the insurance lobby, and political powers than be - everyone else comes second.

I'm tired of politicians that places the wants and whims of the financial elite ahead of the needs of ordinary working families. I'm tired of policy that prioritizes the same. And I'm done listening to anyone who says that I'm not allowed to advocate for the needs of working families prioritized first, before the whims of the financial elite. I'm done being told to sit at the back of the bus.

And I'm done being lectured about what's best for Democrats - as though Party was the end in and of itself rather than a supposed means to the ends of great social and economic justice.

[kenfrequed]

102. POLICY

It is always about policy. I could give a tinkers damn about the personalities involved here. Kucinich is right and the Rahm-bots are wrong about this. This bill does not solve the problem and is not even a step in the right direction of solving the problem. It is a mixed system that has been constructed to garauntee insurance company profitability at the cost of actualy health care reform.

I am sick to death of people babbling about how horrible Kucinich is and how he is destroying the party. It is an absurd argument. If anything has destroyed the party it has been over a year of floundering and pandering on the issue of healthcare and locking out the progressives that have had clear and intelligent solutions to this problem. The Senate did a terrible number on this bill and have disgraced the memory of Teddy Kennedy with the pile of crap they tried to shovel out the door.

The mistakes of Obama were really only two and they weren't the worst made thus far. For one he listened to his Chief of Staff on this matter and for the second he failed to provide strength, certainty, and clarity in leadership. Being nebulous might work for Sun Tzu but people don't respect someone that doesn't take a strong stand.

I put most of the blame where it belongs with the DLC and Blue Dogs that put their own selfish motivations ahead of the American people and the Democratic party as well. Baccuus' committee did more damage to healthcare reform than can be easily calculated.

[Name removed]

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[swilton]

123. This Health Insurance Bill

that is designed to rescue corporate health insurance does not address the issues of health care.

Someone as you've defined it dieing of stage 3 cancer will be treated no better with mandated health insurance than they would be without insurance....Besides coming up with the $$ for a monthly mandated health insurance premium, where will they get the money for the co-pay and their deductable......What is in the bill that prevents the insurance companies for disqualifying a stage 3 cancer patient - or raising their co-pay or deductable rates so their health insurance 'benefit' is meaningless?

There is no regulation of the health insurance industry within this built - as Kucinich points out - the bill is built on sand...

I give him credit for being one of the few within the Democrotic Party to stand up for the people rather than the corporations.

[swilton]

125. Greed and hubris have destroyed the Democrotic Party

Other than Dennis Kucinich and a few others - I want nothing to do with the Democrotic Party.

[HughMoran]

174. Nobody it forcing you

to post on a site that supports Democrats.

[Echo In Light]

215. MANY lefties feel the same. Being repub-light doesn't exactly qualify as left/progressive

[eridani]

172. This idiotic "reform" will not change that.

Insurance companies kill and bankrupt people for profit, and they will still be doing it.

[Name removed]

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[sendero]

24. Obama..

.... will seal the doom of the Democratic party for a decade if this piece of shit legislation passes.

[liberation]

60. Wow... black mail as an argument is the best you guys can do to defend this piece of sh*t bill?

I am sure, that little tid bit must be flying over some of your heads. If it has come down to that: using what amounts to black mail as the only argument to sell a bill.

[NJmaverick]

calling a bill "piece of sh*t" is a poor argument

considering the lives saved by the bill the most important thing is simply being human.

[liberation]

74. Really, a red herring now? The seas are strained as it is no need for unnecessary fishing.

At least it is not as bold faced black mail as your initial argument, but still along the same intellectually dishonest lines.


If you cared ever so deeply about those poor people Kucinich is going to "kill" if he does not toe in with the DLC narrative. Why aren't you in the front lines demanding universal health care coverage? which would save the people, who you are ever so afraid are going to die if this piece of excrement bill is supposed to save, and much more.

[flyarm]

61. me to Kucinich..thank you for not selling the American people out! Contrary to the paid sells outs

here on DU!!

[harmonicon]

62. get a clue

THIS BILL is all about the right wingers - it is their dream. If you don't think that the majority of the Democratic caucus are right-wingers, you're dreaming. Kucinich is one of the few people in government working against not just the majority right wing that is in power right now, but against 100% control of every aspect of government by the right. We are in serious trouble when a center/left politician like Kucinich is considered radical.

[Junkdrawer]

90. Yeah. And we're winning in Afghanistan too....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7821658

You're a trip....

[grahamhgreen]

95. You are killing REAL HCR. Stop you're killing US! Expand Medicare in reconcilliationa and be done.

[Mithreal]

129. Insurance you cannot afford to use is not health care.

[rhett o rick]

146. Why would you support a bill w/o a Public Option? You are killing people. nt

[AllyCat]

161. Can't do better than what others here have already said.

Kucinich is RIGHT!! This bill is a POS. There is no improving it later. If we can't improve it now, how will we improve anything later after the insurance companies have record profits and 10s of millions of more consumers, many of them paying twice: once through premiums, and once through taxes!

[cui bono]

185. Sending people to the poor house to pay for insurance that will just be denied

when they need it isn't going to keep anyone from dying that isn't already going to.

Stop yelling at Kuc and yell at your senators and president and tell them to fix the damn bill.

[earcandle]

190. Not really. He is taking a stand for a public option. Hope others stand with him.

Or else we are stuck with Pills

[John Q. Citizen]

191. I'm sending Dennis 10 bucks again, because he's right and because he's honest.

You can fault him for that all you want.

You can send your money to the guy who is wrong and who is dishonest if you want. Go for it. Course the Insurance company criminals are already taking care of your guy pretty good, to the tune of millions of dollars.

Why do you suppose that is?

[pokercat999]

197. Me to NJMaverick, I don't care what you claim your motives are,

you are helping to enslave our people to the corporations.......STOP IT!

[totodeinhere]

208. Wrong. If this piece of shit bill passes, that is what will help the right wingers.

Pass this bill and watch both houses of Congress get taken by the GOP in November. Pass a strong bill with at the very least a strong public option that does not kiss up to the insurance industry, and the Dems keep Congress. That is my firm belief.

[Bryn]

212. Maybe you don't really understand what this bill is about?

Dennis is not voting with Republicans. He's voting on his principle, he wants a single payer, Universal Health Care for all. Tonight Bill Maher on Countdown and then Michael Moore on Rachel Maddow, they were saying the same thing Dennis is trying to warn you all about this health insurance reform bill ... that it sucks.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. Kucinich is spot on.

just because he does not support this crap bill does not mean it is for the same reason as GOP opposition.

"Getting something done" for the sake sake of getting something done is not nearly important as WHAT you've actually accomplished.

[HughMoran]

10. Yes, getting nothing done is always better

Kuch can vouch for that...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

23. You are incorrect.

Also that is not what I was saying.

Doing the RIGHT thing is always better.
Unfortunately it's often more difficult as well.

[kenny blankenship]

6. It's worse than building on sand. It's like building a prison when you need a hospital

A jail has beds. A hospital has beds. But the layouts of the buildings are very different and a jail can't be effectively repurposed into a hospital. To build an effective hospital, you have to bulldoze the prison and start over.

[ShortnFiery]

13. +1

A MANDATE is *The Prison* ===> "It's like building a prison when you need a hospital." *****

[cali]

47. instead of airy metaphors, explain why the passage of this legislation

would be worse than the status quo- in concrete terms, pleae.

[kenny blankenship]

57. You'd be forcing people to buy insurance products that they can't afford, and can't afford to use

It's a scam. Doing nothing in the present circumstances is bad, but doing what you propose to do is criminal.
Health care costs will still go up, our costs still be the highest of any country in the world by a wide margin. Insurance mafiosi will still be in charge and now they will be in partnership with the government. People will still go bankrupt because of medical crises. People will still fall through the cracks of an insane patchwork system. So, not only will you be leaving a broken system unrepaired, you will be fixing it in place by force of law. As the system continues to grind the bones of the disadvantaged, people of good will who want to REALLY fix health care will have to overcome not only tradition, but all the assholes who supported this sham reform and who'll say "but but but it's only been 5 years! Let the Obaucus Care Reform have time to work!" The idea of "liberal reform" of healthcare will have been damaged very deeply by the Obaucus swindle, and suspicion of "gummit medicine" amongst the electorate will only deepen, despite what's sure to be a deepening crisis. Meanwhile the insurance racketeers will have an open pipeline to the US Treasury, a hundred billion dollars a year soon, and sure to go on rising. From a gushing revenue stream like that there'll be plenty of juice for them to slush around Congress, where future Jack Abramoffs from the insurance mafia will walk around like kings. They will have their unbreakable swarming coterie of groupie Senators, like Countrywide Financial kept Chris Dodd and Kent Conrad in their stable of whores at the same time.

If this is your idea of helping me, just drop dead.

[kath]

167. +10- - great post.

[Greyhound]

192. That's about the reply I expected you to get. n/t

[pecwae]

198. What an outstanding post!

I tried to highlight a sentence that truly shines, but realized I'd have to highlight the entire post.

[grahamhgreen]

99. Big crapsurance is going to take the Trillions you give them and crush all the real reform in the

bill.

There is no way to prevent it, IMHO.

[pundaint]

107. I reject the binary choice meme. Congress knows that the People are paying attention.

They know they will be in a lot of trouble if they do nothing. We will get as little as we will accept, and this sellout of a bill is just too little.

Here's my line of reasoning

!. The difference between our underperforming health care delivery system and those everywhere else in the industrialized world is for-profit insurers.

2. Insurers make money by paying less for medical care than they take in.

3. Insurers have been promising to do better for 5 decades. That is 5 decades of proving that they do not follow through on their promises. Massachusetts bought into this con a few years ago, and has been paid back by higher-than-the-national-average cost increases since. Insurance companies have been lying to lawmakers for longer than the average American has been alive. This bill relies on Insurers to bend the cost curve down with only the threat of taking a look somewhere down the road and passing insurance reform legislation if they prove to be extending their 50-year record of jacking prices up.

4. The Supreme Court has affirmed that the only duty of a corporation is to make profits, Insurance Companies are just being corporations. The scorpion and the frog parable saves a lot of typing in explaining why this is germane.

5. There is nothing in this bill to allow Americans to buy pharmaceuticals at world-market prices, even though they are manufactured with world-market components.

6. The forced purchase from private companies sets a bad precedent, of tying corporations to government, which is the classic definition of fascism.

7. A real part of our employment problem is the lumping of healthcare costs in with the expense of hiring a worker. This bill will only exacerbate that impact.

8. If we buy this package of shit, we will be affirming the low opinion of electoral gullibility held by the weasels who manipulate our government for the benefit of the vanishingly small few. This issue may be our last opportunity to stand for Government For the People successfully.

[laughingliberal]

138. Okay

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7876685&mesg_id=7878090

[Bryn]

7. Dennis is Right!

K&R

[AllentownJake]

14. I think after the banker bailouts, stimulus bill, and several other policies of 2009

The how you do something is as important as the why you do something.

I swear to God, we live amongst an entire population with the failure to understand consequences, whether they are intended or not.

[bigtree]

46. I think it's a product of our times

It's not as simple as the instant gratification virus which has infected this computer-age society. It's the product of folks who are just fine with buying prepackaged portions of sustenance; packaged things that we used to manufacture from ingredients in bulk and easily work them into pies and bread and such. This generation has accepted that they're helpless to demand or achieve anything better than what's in front of them. The political process has been pre-packaged for us; a process that we could better accomplish our goal by breaking it down into malleable parts and fashioning them into the care we need. But we've bought into this shiny package . . . and we ALL know how the packaged stuff compares to homemade.

But, to your point (probably not), the present system which is robbing us blind began with best intentions from someone at some time. It's a shame that we don't trust ourselves throw out the already spoiled soup and start again with fresh, natural ingredients.

I remember the problems with Medicare and Medicaid start-ups. I want to reflect on those with some optimism for the future . . . then I'm reminded that those are dependent right now on the success of failure of this new endeavor. I really, really don't trust this generation to get this right . . .

[Raksha]

155. The "prepackaged mindset..." That's a very good way of putting it.

I do believe you're on to something important, Bigtree. I'm gonna have to give this some serious thought, not only with regard to health care but in general. Thanks!

[Romulox]

18. The true believers are getting desperate if they're scared of "ineffective" Dennis Kucinich. nt

[berni_mccoy]

19. REMEMBER: Kucinich Voted Against the PUBLIC OPTION

Not the Senate bill. The House Version that most at DU want. Kucinich is enabling the GOP and providing cover for Senate Dems to NOT SUPPORT THE PO.

He is undermining Health Care Reform. Period.

[flyarm]

78. YOU ARE FULL OF CACA! EOM

[liberation]

87. LOL... he also drinks freshly squeezed blood from infants every morning.

Buhahahahahahahah


Funny to see Obama fans seeing someone standing for their beliefs as such a dangerous and threatening thing. LOL

[hippywife]

127. Wow! What a lie THAT is! n/t

[RoccoR5955]

204. What a load of bovine fecal matter this is!

He voted against the PO, because it's nothing more than a bailout to Big Insurance.
I stand with him, because he works for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations.

[freddie mertz]

207. He voted against the massively DESSICATED version of the PO.

He has stated over and over that a ROBUST, widely accessible version of the PO, you know, the one the president promised then forgot he did?...that he would vote for a bill with tHAT provision, and that THIS was in fact his COMPROMISE.

Be sure to get it right.

[TheUnspeakable]

21. k&r!!

[Kitty Herder]

25. Right on!

[Tailormyst]

29. He is dead right on this.

[Faryn Balyncd]

33. It's not only that, but this "reform" sets the stage for Zeke's proposal to privatize Medicare.

[newspeak]

44. yeah, a DUer had the article about Zeke's glorious plan

for medicare. Another repuke wet dream. I'm sure the repukes are loving this-couldn't have done a better job if they tried. Let the "new dems" pass this privatization wet dream--after all, the people still think the democrats stand with them.

Privatization means no representation and very little accountability. Yet, some here, think this is the greatest gift. Well, I'm glad some think they're going to benefit--but it looks like for us "stuck in the middle" we may be forced to buy a piece of shite for triple the amount because of our age. And, that penalty if it's less than a thousand is looking mighty good. Of course, we don't get any benefit, just an extra tax to pay Uncle Sammie.

I'll stand with Dennis on this--just another corporate bailout. Now they could just pass the "closing the donut hole" and no pre-conditions. I mean the insurance industry can still charge those with pre-existing conditions more and still deny any claims. I just spoke to my FIL this morning about this bill-he's worked hard all of his life, and almost all of his pension goes to pay secondary insurance. About one thousand dollars for secondary insurance. While other industrialized countries' elderly do not worry much about being taken care of, our country bleeds the elderly. Truly a shame that this country values "profits over people."

[glitch]

59. This one?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zeke-emanuel/sustainable-health-care-r_b_114788.html?view=print

As usual Kucinich is correct.

[laughingliberal]

141. Probably the most dangerous part of the entire bill and ignored or unknown by most. nt

[stray cat]

35. People who would be helped by the bill are sacrifices

[pundaint]

108. Not sure how you mean that. If you mean they are being held hostage by lawmakers who say

we'll let these 30 million be at risk if you don't let us give 70 billion to insurers, and 20 billion to PhRMA, then I agree.

[Echo In Light]

36. k/r for DK - and this quote:

"...to hear the president, you'd think that he was for single payor, at least a public option. But he's not."

[G_j]

213. that caught my ear also

thinking to myself, thank you for telling it like it is.

[Echo In Light]

214. +1

[JVS]

37. K&R

[and-justice-for-all]

38. I agree with Kucinich...

and I am not apologizing for it.

Seeing that there is no real reform in the bill, just more of a 'slap on the hands' for the Insurance industry, why vote for the bill?

There is NO public option in the bill, not even anything that looks like a Public Option. The bill is not doing the people who need real reform, a Public Option, any favors.

Why would anyone support this bill? the fervor here at DU to support this trite bill is astonishing, if there WAS a public option in the bill along with all the other crap, I would support it. However, there is'nt and it is not doing me justice to support an insurance hand out.

Universal Health Care has been an on going challenge for the states since 1908, I think far more than time for us to have universal health care and catch up to the rest of the civilized world.

Health Care is a RIGHT, not a privilege!

[ProSense]

39. Kucinich: Americans don't deserve the health care coverage I enjoy

He could take his grandstanding further and opt out of his Congressional plan.

[Individualist]

50. Fail

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

117. +1

[Enthusiast]

124. ProSense = always wrong.

Grandstanding? Nothing could be further from the truth. Dennis is right on this HCR bill. If not why do so many of us agree with him? Because he is right!

[laughingliberal]

142. You mean you haven't been persuaded by endless links to WH press releases and talking points?

WTF is wrong with you?

[Enthusiast]

159. They send them to my e-mail

address. But I wasn't persuaded. Give me that PUBLIC OPTION and other stuff I voted for.

[Faryn Balyncd]

147. Americans don't deserve to be mandated to purchase from a cartel without a public plan as an option.

.....And Americans especially don't deserve that such a mandate be brought by those who campaigned on the opposite.


What Americans DO DESERVE is politicians with principles and a spine.

[eridani]

175. This piece of shit legislation will force us to buy "coverage"that pays only 60%

--of costs. That is NOT what congresscritters get.

[RoccoR5955]

205. What a load! He wants BETTER than he gets for WE THE PEOPLE,

and to hell with them, the corporations!

[Skidmore]

40. In case Dennis hasn't noticed,

a fair number of us have now sunk in the quagmire. Sand is looking up at this point.

[HughMoran]

43. Very good use of his analogy

I agree - I can hardly breath at this point. My Cobra runs out in 5 months and I have no idea what my recourse will be after that. I won't be buying $36,000/year coverage at my small company, I can assure you that.

[Pithlet]

112. There you go!

:thumbsup:

[Enthusiast]

126. And there are millions upon

millions of Americans similarly affected. The system is unsustainable. So action will be required. Hatred for the insurance industry grows by the day, and not only among Democrats.

We must have a strong public option if we have a mandate.

[laughingliberal]

143. Problem with sand is it does look good if you're stuck in the mud

but the whole damned structure still comes crumbling down with the first strong wind or tremor.

[jonnyblitz]

41. K & R. nt

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

45. KNR! Tell it DK!

[harun]

48. I agree with DK.

[t0dd]

51. K&R

[Hell Hath No Fury]

52. I saw that interview --

and believe there wasn't a single point he made that wasn't true. He gets it -- we are being sold out to the health insurance industry and some here and in Washington are expecting us to say, "Thank you, sir! May I have another?"

Not only no, but HELL no! :mad:

Thank you, Dennis -- you speak the Truth and you speak for me!

[Lorien]

53. +1 nt

[G_j]

55. absolutely

no hype, just clarity.

[RufusTFirefly]

96. Truly, it doesn't take much to "get it."

Most members of Congress understand what's going on. It's pretty obvious.

But it takes real courage to speak the truth about rapacious private insurance companies.

[DirkGently]

56. Yep.

Saw Dennis, and all I could think of was that what he was saying -- that private, for-profit healthcare doesn't work, which is why all other modern industrialized countries have some alternative to it -- is as simple and proveable a truth as anyone could possible speak on this subject -- and yet his view is considered wildly "radical," "left-wing," and borderline - laughable in the U.S.

THIS is what's wrong with the political complexion of the country. Just pointing out that gouging sick people for profit is not an honorable or effective method by which to maintain the public health is basically insanity, but at the same time more "mainstream" politicians routinely, and without fear of any serious contradiction or ridicule, claim that a Living Will is the same as the Holocaust or that schoolchildren need to be taught that the Earth "might" have been made in a week.

This is not an intelligent, rational environment in which to debate national policy.

I'd just like to live in a country where the one guy telling the simple truth isn't considered the weird little commie troll that no one takes seriously.

Too much to ask?

[change_notfinetuning]

101. Not if you don't mind moving - But seriously, your post sums it up. n/t

[pleah]

63. K&R

[mmonk]

65. Thanks bigtree for the post.

I tend to agree with Kucinich though I'm not sure what I want to happen at this point. It's like being caught in a vise.

[bigtree]

73. for me, it all depends

. . . on the 'fix' after passage. I wonder how they promise the progressives in the House that reconciliation will achieve what they want and expect in return for passing the Senate bill (which they certainly didn't bargain for with their first vote for the House bill)?

[mmonk]

111. I guess we are going to have Bernie in our corner to fight for us

(or I at least hope he can be a difference). I'm not wild about the rough draft so to speak but hopefully some establishment of a framework can be made for the future.

[Jefferson23]

68. K&R for Dennis, and for what it is worth, progressives have helped

to push even my Senator Dodd, to sign on to passing a public option through reconciliation.

We need more voices like Dennis, NOT LESS, because we have to fight 'til the bitter end.

On edit to add:

Besides, Centrists SUCK and everyone learned that under Clinton, push forward through speaking out, as Kucinich does here.

[suzie]

160. We need more Weiners, more Graysons. We need no more Kuciniches to do nothing

and aggravate the rest of their colleagues.

[David Zephyr]

71. Truth to power. I oppose this rotten bill, too.

Kudos to Dennis.

[Jefferson23]

72. duplicate...self delete

[eyepaddle]

76. A question:

"Remember, insurance companies make money not providing health care. That is a fundamental truth about our health care system . . " -Dennis Kucinich

How will killing the HCR Bill affect any change to that? I respect Dennis' motivations and principles, and I too was bitterly disappointed with every step away from single payer, and then public option, and then expansion of medicare....

But if you think killing this bill will do anything beyond simply preserving the status quo, I'd like to hear it. My take is that all it will do is prove that Democrats can't ever overcome the Republicans, and thus the GOP will be back in charge. By the time 2065 rolls around and somebody is ready to take anothe crack at HCR it will be more corporatist than this one, will face equally unhinged right wing opposition and will be bargained away further.

We've been through this cycle a few times before; the perfect is the enemy of the "as good as we are going to get" and each succeeding cycle takes us further away from "perfect".

I'd like to at least start from SOMEWHERE and then crowbar in improvements to a done deal, than always, always, always fighting to get off the starting line. If stuffinng cash into the pockets of those already wealthy is the price we have to pay to end lifetime benefit caps, recissions in the event of illness, and denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions--not to mention getting some kind of coverage to at least 30 million more people, then fuck it, I am am still willing to pay it.

[eridani]

176. Passing the bill won't change it either

This isn't about perfect vs good--it is about barely acceptable vs complete shit.

[Dr.Phool]

77. K&R.

I wish Dennis was still my Congressman!

[colsohlibgal]

79. 100 % Agree With DK

The whole thing now, the carrot, is let's pass this crappy bill, this bonanza for the profit leeches and hey, we'll just go back and fix it to something wonderful. Pardon those of us, including Kucinich, who are more than a bit skeptical. You have an industry who have been ruthless in causing pain and death in order to bleed profit out of us and we're going to reward this behavior by forcing more business to them by law. What's wrong with this picture?

[flyarm]

80. DK speaks for me Loud and Clear!! Thank you Dennis!! eom

[Vinnie From Indy]

82. I agree with Dennis on one thing...

This bill will do nothing to prevent the health insurance industry from trading lives for profit in the future. It is simply THE most fundamental aspect of their existence.

One must ask why is it that if 70+% of Americans support a public option, it is not in the bill and we are told it CAN'T be in the bill?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

156. That's a question a lot of of people here --

are afraid to ask, because it might lead them to the conclusion that maybe the Dems really are bought like the GOP and have no intention opf answering to the needs of the people.

If you are a Party loyalist, questions and conclusions like that make your circuitry overload like Robby the Robot.

[gulfcoastliberal]

162. More & more realize the truth is what we have is 1 party with 2 factions.

Sucks, huh?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

210. Yes. It. Does.

:( :puke:

[slipslidingaway]

86. knr nt

[pundaint]

91. Sometimes, rarely, the interests of the People and the interests of the Right Wing coincide.

Because our side was keeping it's focus on corporate appeasement and politics, they have crafted a bill that makes matters worse. This is a bad bill for the People, the only winners here are pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and big hospital corporations. It will bankrupt America, not to provide benefits, but because the cost curve will only bend even further upward.

Your focus is on the benefit to a very small minority, at a cost far higher that to just directly pay their bills.

We are a like an isolated small town beset by lions and this bill addresses the lion problem by feeding them the rest of our meat so they wont be hungry for a few days. It's no real solution, it rewards the lion's attention, and puts us in a weaker position to fight in the future.

[liberation]

94. Not really, DK and the far right oppose this bill for completely different reasons...

... regardless of all the dishonest false analogies the DLC crowd is desperately trying to spin to defend the indefensible.

[pundaint]

170. Perhaps I should have said the interests of the People, and the goal of the far right.

[Political Heretic]

92. I'm done being lectured about what's best for "the Party." The Party is less important than People.

There's a simple truth here - what Kucinich is saying is in the best interests of ordinary people.

What Obama is saying is in the best interest of the status quo, big money interest such as the insurance lobby, and political powers than be - everyone else comes second.

I'm tired of politicians that place the wants and whims of the financial elite ahead of the needs of ordinary working families. I'm tired of policy that prioritizes the same. And I'm done listening to anyone who says that I'm not allowed to advocate for the needs of working families prioritized first, before the whims of the financial elite. I'm done being told to sit at the back of the bus because I'm sick of a system of marginalization and exploitation of working families - perpetuated by Democrats as clearly as it is perpetuated by Republicans.

And I'm done being lectured about what's best for Democrats - as though Party was the end in and of itself rather than a supposed means to the ends of great social and economic justice.

The Party stopped working for me and my friends and family long ago. It stopped standing in solidarity with ordinary working class Americans when the financial elite started pouring as much and sometimes more money into the National Democratic party as it does the Republican Party.

The national Republican Party, a wholly owned subsidiary of our financial ruling class, appeals to base emotion of people - specifically feelings of anger, resentment or a feeling that one is not getting a "square deal" by re-channeling those feelings against designated enemies - gays, "socialists," "terrorists," etc. The Republican Party's job is to drive radical policy whenever they are given the opportunity.

The national Democratic Party, a wholly owned subsidiary our financial ruling class, appeals to people who like to think of themselves as moved by reason, science, or history over raw emotion. The Democratic Party's job for the financial elite is to stop any substantial changes in direction, all while convincing their supporters that they are really "trying." To reiterate: they're job is to stall or weaken any policy that might change the direction of this corporate take over of every facet of our society, while keeping people who might otherwise be more likely to organize for radical change complacent and pacified - spinning their stalling into rationales for why people should continue to support them.

So when Republicans are in power, the radical agenda of the financial elite is pushed forward. When Democrats are in power, they function as "gatekeepers" - making sure that no real change to agenda of the financial elite takes place, and that any policy passed contains enough exceptions, exceptions and loopholes so as to keep business-as-usual protected all while providing the illusion of "choice" to the American voter.

The financial elite took over as controlling interests of these Parties - and we can take that controlling interest back.

But doing so will mean voting corporate sponsored Democrats out - even if it means some short term small scale political victories for Republicans amidst the turmoil - and replacing them with people's representatives serving the people's interest first, financial elite second.

There's quite simply no other way.

[upi402]

105. +1^ n/t

[dana_b]

109. I was just going to state the same thing

but you did it much more eloquently than I. Thank you!

People before ANY party!!

[RoccoR5955]

206. Kick +10 e1000 n/t

[fascisthunter]

98. right on my brotha!!!!!

I love how you piss off the sellout corporatists. You make democrats proud!

[pundaint]

110. 4 BIG LIES

1. It is this bill or nothing

2. Insurance companies, despite 50 years of failing to deliver on their promises, will work to reduce costs this time

3. Running all the business through the companies who created, and actually constitute the problem is Reform.

4. Obama, in any way, is working on behalf of the People re healthcare.

[laughingliberal]

144. + a gazillion! nt

[nightrain]

114. knr. DK speaks the truth.

[Edweird]

115. Dennis and I agree. K&R

[Swamp Rat]

118. k&r

:patriot:

[hippywife]

128. Yaaaaaaaaaaaa, Dennis!

:woohoo:

[leftstreet]

135. K&R

[SlingBlade]

145. K & R We Progressives Didnt leave the Party

[icee]

151. Excellent, Dennis. I'm right with ya. This is not Healthcare Reform. This

is Healthcare Deform.

[jonathon]

154. This plan SUCK - mandated private insurance with no gurantee of coverage

I can't believe people defend this bs.

[closeupready]

182. Better believe it.

Piece of shit bill that should have "garbage" written all over it.

[L. Coyote]

152. TOO BIG TO FAIL??

[L0oniX]

157. Fuck people ...let them die ...let's spend more tax money on the military so we can have more jobs.

Let's give more money to the banksters because they really do care about the regular every day joe, and the money will trickle down and will get us more jobs.

:evilfrown: :grr: :sarcasm:

[scentopine]

165. just like the dems who supported nafta, banking deregulation, energy deregulation, war

democrats are laying the ground work for the next big clusterfuck aimed straight at the middle class.

Those trying to get this huge piece of shit passed just so Obama can have his name attached to a "victory" are playing with *our* lives. It's not their lives because unlike 90% of Americans their income grows exponentially up, while ours is eroding in in a more linear fashion.

This is about putting neo-conservative principals (now known as new democrat principals) into action - it is EXACTLY and I mean EXACTLY the same process that gave us NAFTA, and a host of other deregulation fuck ups that will keep wall street CEOs, executives, politicians and their families set for the next 1000 years. And it will bring the middle class complete misery.

Let's not forget that the centrists and other right wingers NEVER do anything because it is the right thing to do, if there isn't an immediate profit in their pockets it never sees the light of day.

And they claim that's the beauty of the free market. When corporations control the legislative process, and politicians profit, I suppose it really is a thing of beauty.

So many people here continue to espouse free market, neo-con, neo-dem, principals. It is just unfucking believable.

We have two republican parties. We need a third party for liberals who are currently reviled in both parties.

Liberals should not be forced to vote for the "less fucked up" of two fucked up right wing organizations. The two mainstream parties are as worthless and ras ight wing as the mainstream media.

[closeupready]

183. For the National Party, liberals seek to use the nation's resources in the service of the People,

NOT the elites.

On edit, going back and reading that, how are today's leaders in the Democratic Party NOT aping the Communist Party in the Soviet Union were, towards the end, with their Black Sea villas and chauffeurs, even as they espoused 'solidarity' and capitalist oppression of labor??

[scentopine]

187. Good point - there is a trend emerging here in US as rich and poor...

grow farther apart. History tells us that eventually this leads to violence - not that violence will lead to an equitable solution, but that violence will become a legitimate system of justice as other means of representation fail.

The more power and wealth the politicians and their CEO Johns accumulate, the more likely they are to use violence to protect their share. Suddenly we are all terrorists and need to be spied on 24/7. Any form of protest is treated as a possible terrorist threat.

As people continue to get stressed out about costs of living, the more likely they be to use violence as a form of redress.

Most politicians have nothing to worry about, however. Until things get so bad that we implement the French solution, the politicians have the upper hand and we will suffer all the while we are asked to sacrifice more in order to protect their bank accounts.

[mother earth]

166. Listen up Prez, Senate & Congress!!! Kucinich is right!!!!

K & R

[ibegurpard]

173. K&R

He is right on.

[The Gunslinger]

177. He is right.

[kgnu_fan]

178. Truth speaker!!!!

[ProSense]

179. Question:

Why would Kucinich oppose Sanders' state single payer provision?

[WoodyM]

180. How can Democrats,

the party that claims to be of the people, start to reform Health Care come up with what they have now? They began by laying single payer aside before making any real attempts at doing anything. Now they are down to a mandate for the people to buy insurance. This is what republicans proposed back in the nineties. And the president who I worked so hard to get elected is out campaigning for it.

[NorthCarolina]

201. Because the controlling faction of the Democratic Party

the DLC, or "New Dems" as they prefer to be called now, are NOT advocates of the people. Rather, they are advocates for Corporate America, much the same as the GOP.

[closeupready]

181. Go, Dennis!

:)

[cui bono]

184. "no guarantees of any control over premiums"

Thank you Dennis!!!

How the hell can the senate pass this POS? Such bs. Instead of villifying Kuc we should be hounding them to put that in. How can that POSSIBLY be controversial?????

[seabeckind]

188. I agree with Dennis

This capitulation to the corporate interests is a travesty.

It is one thing to strive for the best we can achieve and fall a little short but to not even try...

Single payer should be our goal, public option the fallback otherwise there is no incentive to control costs and provide service.

Go Dennis!!!! Someone must stand for we the people.

[Marr]

189. The "moderates" ought to be crazy about Kucinich!

He may refuse to vote with the Democrats. They lick that shit up when it's Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, etc. Why the double standard? Why no rush to "compromise" or "negotiate"? I don't get it!

[Mind_your_head]

193. Who is "LO" n/t

:shrug:

[NorthCarolina]

200. Lawrence O'Donnell. eom

[Mind_your_head]

211. Thanks! n/t

[lonestarnot]

194. And tonight the dude from KOS or whatever that joint is called was not called out for his support of

insurance fucks.

[Christa]

196. Kucinich lost me

I don't understand his argument.

K & R.

[RoccoR5955]

202. K & R Kucinich/Grayson 2012

I want a primary. Obama/Biden are way too far in the pockets of big corporations for me.

[LWolf]

203. k & r for the best Democrat standing, bar none. nt

[DisgustedInMN]

209. DK should be President, at least he has a spine...

.. and isn't a lying, corporate ass kissing, Republican Light pretender.