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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:20 AM
Original message
OK, adamant opposers of the current iteration of health care reform
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 11:21 AM by cali
or insurance reform or whatever you want to call it, explain to me in specifics how the passage of said legislation is worse than the status quo. And don't just parrot that it's a gift to insurance companies. Tell me how people will be worse off and have less access to health care if it passes and explain the mechanisms that will ensure that.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. WENDELL POTTER: ".........I would vote for it (senate HCR Bill). ...."
Crickets from this post....very very loud crickets
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. well, it's only been up for about two minutes
so of course there are crickets.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I saw him on Bill Moyers and agree: if it's good enough for Potter, it's good enough for me.
Not perfect, but good enough. We had better take what we can get because this opportunity will never come up again in an Obama adminstration.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. It isn't necessarily that the people will have less access immediately
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 11:31 AM by Oregone
Though, I wouldn't suggest the 30+ million people shifting onto subsidized plans will have more access, with low actuarial valued plans that cause economic rationing.

Its that this reform institutionalizes private insurance and rejects socialisms as a viable solution for the people's problems. This reform codifies a non-egalitarian, multi-tiered, for-profit, private health insurance system (and without aggressive enough price controls at that). This isn't just about letting the industry into a door to lobby the government, but rather, giving them a room in the house to live in.

The reality is that health costs are strangling America's industrial competitiveness, and that isn't going away soon (even if the rate of acceleration is lowered, this is a stark position to be in). The reality is that the costs of private industry running these small pools for profit is a price that is severely hurting America; there is a premium that must be paid to allow private companies to run institutions that the government could run itself.

So once you codify this type of inefficient, expensive, and unfair system, how could you ever "move forward" in the direction of an egalitarian system where everyone gets the access to health care they need at appropriate times and appropriate costs? Once private insurers become integrated into the government by law, will their influence and power ever allow for the reform reform that is so desperately needed? All this is is technocratic adjustments that hide the costs in a shell game and pretends people still wont suffer, even if covered, but it can have devastating effects by pushing socialism off the bargaining table once and for all.

Then there are the mandates.... :)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. wait a minute, are you actually saying that private insurance isn't already
institutionalized in this country??? Look, the Netherlands has a system built on private insurance that is evidently quite good. If I had my druthers (what are druthers, btw?) I'd go for single payer, but that's not a possibility. And sometimes- I believe this is one of those times- any change is better than the status quo. Inertia is a powerful and destructive force.

The system we have now IS codified and it sucks worse than that proposed. If we can just start a process of change, we'll come out ahead. Most importantly, this legislation will save lives. That is indisputable.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Are there laws requiring everyone to purchase it right now?
"Look, the Netherlands has a system built on private insurance that is evidently quite good"

Maybe you can ask them if theyll switch their insurance model for what you're getting.


"If we can just start a process of change, we'll come out ahead"

Change in an ambiguous direction is not automatically a good thing. Try going for a hike without a map sometime in a large forest, and let me know how it goes.


"Most importantly, this legislation will save lives. That is indisputable."

Thats not proven whatsoever. Especially if its implementation waylays real reform and causes more aggregate suffering. Aside from that, there is the cost of having the private market run the show, and the people have to pay with a lagging economy that spreads plight and poverty.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. the CHC funding will provide primary care to several million
people who have none right now. Of course that will save lives.

This is it. It either this or nothing for a very long time.

And you haven't explained how it would be worse than the status quo. As someone who actually has good subsidized insurance- which I'd be screwed without, I know that it can help. I don't want to deny people what I have now in the name of something better years from now.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Yes, thats great, and that didn't need to be attached to this beast
A mandated system that isn't any better (due to low actuarial valued plans) is something I consider worse. Giving the private insurance lobby that much more power to influence legislation is something I consider worse. A rejection of socialism by the most liberal party as precedence for future reform is something I consider as worse.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Who cares what it's attached to?! IT's getting done
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. Because if you take 1 step forward and 2 steps back, where are you?
Its an absurd suggestion to not care what something positive is being passed with. Using that justification, you have NO grounds to oppose ANY bill ever passed (because there is pretty much always something that can be construed as positive, no matter how fucking terrible the rest of a bill is). Should policy not be gaged on its cumulative effect?
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. 1 step forward, 2 steps back... um... dancing at the prom with my cousin???
But hey, I'm at the prom. ;-)
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Its a hokey pokey bill
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. Very good explanation. I'll add:
the industry in the Netherlands is HIGHLY regulated.

And you are exactly right about that wrong direction thing. Starting out on the wrong path does not put us on the road to a better system in the future.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Drift...
"Druthers" comes from "would rather" or "I'd rather." "If I had my 'I'd rathers,' then we'd all have single-payer."
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Oh, sorry...
I didn't read where your drift went before I wrote mine...
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. 'Druther' is a slang contraction of 'I'd rather'.
That's where the term came from. Just in case you actually wanted to know, which you probably didn't.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. Insurance companies in the Netherlands are on a choke chain compared to ours
The government controls the insurance companies, not the other way around.
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Ah yes, the mandates. Now, instead of choosing to buy insurance (something
most people do if they can possibly afford it), you have to. I've heard people insist ad nauseum that things will be so much better if the bill passes because you won't have to worry about pre-existing conditions or rescission or limits. This legislation isn't going to magically transform the insurance companies into not-for-profit organizations nor it is going to create a large omnipotent, omnipresent oversight agency in the government, so why would any reasonable person believe that the vultures that have been relentlessly preying on us for years suddenly stop playing their shell games? Their business is making money, not reimbursing people for health care, so they're gonna cry "fraud" and "investigational procedure" and "not medically necessary" and question every claim and wear sick people down until they get nothing.

This bill has the promise of "better" but doesn't deliver on that promise, IMHO, and lying underneath that promise is the tiger pit of the mandate which locks us into getting insurance from private companies. Hideously bad precedent to set. If the exchange included some non-profit options, I'd be a lot more sanguine about this bill.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. I do agree with what you say. But it doesn't. So now what?
Do you throw the baby out with the bath water?

I am honestly confused here. I really REALLY want insurance coverage. REALLY. I am worried that letting this bill tank will mean another decade of the status quo. At least another decade. I do not see any scenario where this bill dies or gets killed and another one that is better takes its place any time soon. So, do I just play Russian roulette for the next ten-twenty years and hope nothing happens to me because this bill MIGHT not do what it is designed to do?
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. If the bill doesn't pass, I don't think it will be another decade of the status quo
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 01:50 PM by gkhouston
for financial reasons. There are so many people and so many businesses being affected by this issue that the country -- and Congress -- are finally waking up to how big this problem is for our economy as a whole. If you want to advocate for this bill, knock yourself out. I don't expect to see any real improvement (although it would be fantastic if there were some) and we'll be re-visiting this situation in less than five years. Without any means to control their behavior, the insurance companies will go on behaving badly until we find some way to stop them or write them out of the equation. It's just going to be one hell of a lot harder to get them out of the picture once we've established a mandate and set up an exchange including them. It would be so much better, IMO, if there were an option on the exchange akin to Medicaid or Medicare. It would provide competition from the start and could later be expanded into a true single-payer system if the insurance companies don't clean up their act. Right now, they've got no incentive, none, to change. The threat of competition from a government entity could be a useful incentive.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Why would anything be different in the near term?
What makes you think that the NEXT effort will not go the exact same way this one did? In future elections, corporations will be able to dump as much money as they like into getting their candidate elected. Do you not think that insurance companies are lining up who to buy RIGHT NOW?? And no matter what, we have seen how subversive ad campaigns from the insurance companies can be. It seems to me the waters just get muddier from here.

Of COURSE a public option would force healthier competition. Sorry, but NO SHIT. How do we get there from HERE and do it within the next ten years?
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. Because when the next effort comes, there will be even more people who have
been screwed over by insurance companies and more employers who can't afford to take care of their employees. The problem gets worse as time goes on. I don't doubt that insurance companies are buying people, but the public is becoming aware that politicians are being bought and the public is also becoming aware that they aren't the only ones being shafted by their insurance company. We're pretty much at a point where they will have to do something; that's why the insurance companies have been fighting so hard and why they've got both sides of this bet covered. I think if we don't go to a public option or some serious regulation in the next ten years, most people in this country will not be insured. I'm not sure the insurance companies realize they're sawing off their own branch.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. So I guess I am just going to have to take one for the team, huh?
I have a pre-existing condition as far as the last three insurance companies I have applied to are concerned. I am uninsured. I am scared. But I guess for the sake of socialism, I will just have to die.

Please remember my sacrifice and that of thousands of other people who will die over the next ten years. Because that is a minimum of how long it will take to get health care reform back on the table. But our deaths will be SO worth it if it means the advancement of socialism as a mechanism for correcting societal ills.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
51. And I can just as easily kick your life back at you as a political football
Suggesting that by you "getting yours", a system that will cause more aggregate suffering will be created to preempt real reform (but as long as you are fine, fuck everyone else).

But basing policy arguments on raw emotions doesn't lead to the sound creation of policy, so lets not go there. It isn't as if people are not concerned about your condition, but its that they want to address it in a better way. Its almost as if you are proposing a strawman by suggesting people want you to take one for the team (when people care more about helping the entire team the most in a viable and efficient manner)
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. dupe
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 01:24 PM by renie408
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. Great post! nt
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damonm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. They unrec and run for the hills...
when challenged for FACTS.
All they have is knee-jerk hatred of corporations and a sizeable dose of paranoid supposition.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. Amazing how supporters of this bill want specifics from critics
While offering vague promises that the specific problems we have with the program will be "fixed later", I guess in some future utopian progressive era.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. +1
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I've been quite specific
about why I reluctantly support this bill, honey. How about YOU?
Care to get into specifics or are you just going to just hypocritically whine?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You want a specific? How about taking abortion coverage away from women?
And in case you think that's no big deal, know that the only exceptions are rape, incest, or the life of the woman. Not threats to her health and not fetal deformity. That means that if you are carrying a severely deformed fetus with no chance of survival outside of the womb, you either carry to term or pay thousands of dollars for a later term abortion out of your own pocket.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Please site the provision in the bill for this, TIA
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Both the Stupak and Nelson amendments contain the same language
(1) In general.—No funds authorized or appropriated by this Act (or an amendment made by this Act) may be used to pay for any abortion or to cover any part of the costs of any health plan that includes coverage of abortion, except in the case where a woman suffers from a physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness that would, as certified by a physician, place the woman in danger of death unless an abortion is performed, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself, or unless the pregnancy is the result of an act of rape or incest.

Stupak and other Blue Dogs will not vote for the bill unless the language is included. But I'm sure you knew that.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. But that doesn't answer the question.
The bill as written states that no government funds will go towards elective abortion.

Does the government currently pay for elective abortions in cases where the health of the mother, rape or incest are not concerns? If not (I genuinely don't know), then how does this bill change anything as it relates to abortion?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Hyde does make an exception for the health of the mother, but not fetal deformity.
The Stupak and Nelson amendments are an expansion of Hyde restrictions, not merely a reiteration of them.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Is abortion universally covered by private insurance now?
And this bill only states that there will be no government funding for abortion, which is pretty much the way it is now, right?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. Most private policies do cover abortion and this amendment expands Hyde restrictions.
No exception for the health of the mother and plans in the exchange will not be allowed to offer abortion coverage, even when the woman pays premiums entirely out of her own pocket.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. Thank you.
"Here, have some shit, and while you're at it, I want you to write a book report on shit and tell me all the things in it that are actually good for you."

No thanks.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why no coverage for pre-exisiting until 2013?
Why nothing much really until then or 2014?
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. ...and never is better than later because?
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. Maybe because
it's not possible to implement the coverage of pre-existing conditions without mandates, and it's not possible to implement mandates without the subsidies, and all that TAKES TIME.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thanks. This is EXACTLY what I was thinking.
I hear a lot of principled breast beating and the villagers are definitely headed up to the castle with their pitchforks, but what I want to know is what happens if this bill doesn't pass? How is that better?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. As far as delivering health care, the legislation no better than the status quo.
Inasmuch as many doctors are starting to refuse to accept insurance because of their practices, it's pretty useless. As far as allowing insurance to dip into the national treasury, it's worse than the status quo. It's like Medicare Part D. Not only is there no negotiation for drug prices, but you must buy it from private insurers. There is no public Medicare Part D. It's already draining the Medicare program of funds and breaking the bank. This is something the Republicans love to point out how Medicare is going broke. Well, this is why. This will do the same for our economy if Sibelius can't control the insurers.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. +1
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. A real world example..
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 01:28 PM by girl gone mad
My uncle currently gets treatment from a clinic/doctor in S. America. It's very affordable and he has been going for years. He's in his 50s, too young for Medicare, but at the age where the insurance cos will be allowed to jack him under this bill.

So these will be his options:

1. Buy a crappy insurance policy, as required. This will quickly deplete his savings and I wouldn't be surprised if the co-pays made it virtually impossible for him to get any use out of the policy.

or

2. Pay the fines. This will also cut into his savings and leave less money for him to continue getting the treatment he currently receives.

After speaking to a trusted adviser on the matter, I believe my uncle will be dramatically worse off in the long run because I expect the fines to quickly be raised. My uncle is actually very heartbroken over what he has learned.

Either way he will probably have to work, with his illness, until he turns 65 and is relieved of the mandate.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. And another that will suffer.. Cleita just jogged my memory.
My brother's small business does not purchase group insurance, instead they have a deal with a concierge style doctor, which covers all of their preventive and chronic needs, plus some minor catastrophic plans. I'm not certain how this plan will effect all of them, but it will be a big burden for the younger workers.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Please
Could you explain how insurance companies are allowed to jack people over 50 under this bill? Not argumentative, trying to figure out what is going on.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. How people over 50 are screwed by this bill:
Insurance companies are explicitly allowed to charge people over 50 three times the base price.

You think they won't? And they won't care that you've lost your job and can't find anything more than WalMart greeter or that your business income has dropped by 50%. You'll either pay whatever they choose to charge, or you'll be fined and have no insurance.

Such a deal!
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Oh, no doubt the over 50's are going to be screwed to the wall by this bill.
You explained this much more concisely than I did in my very long post below. Hopefully, though, I painted a picture of the real life consequences for people in my post. It's hard for people to see through the talking points to the real life scenarios people will be facing.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. The countries that have universal health care (by whatever system) either
1) Charge everyone the same premiums and supplement it with general funds (e.g. Canada)

2) Pay out of general funds and don't charge premiums to anyone (e.g. the UK)

or

3) Base premiums on income (e.g. Japan)

I don't know of any other country that bases premiums on age or pre-existing conditions. And above all, I don't know of any country that allows deductibles, although some (Japan, Germany) have co-pays (which have an annual cap).
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Uniquely American!!!
:puke:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'll address a few of the reasons although it would be almost as long as the bill to address it all
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 02:41 PM by laughingliberal
Let me first take the most popular talking points that say it will be better than doing nothing:

1) 30 million more people will have access to health care.
2) People will no longer be forced into medical bankruptcies


The truth is 30 million more will be mandated to have a health insurance policy. Those who get a subsidy may be able to afford the premium but a lot of them will not be able to afford the deductibles or out of pocket expenses. So, if they can afford the premium and have a policy, they may still not be able to afford to access the actual care. So, many will have a policy but not access to health care and they will have an extra expense of paying a premium. Now, many make the point that the bill allows people to see a PCP without out of pocket expenses (a visit for a checkup, if you will).First off the premiums they are paying would, likely, be enough for them to see a doctor for a checkup to begin with. Many who could, perhaps, afford the checkup do not see a doctor because they can't afford any treatments if something is found and I know all about this cause I am one of those, now. This is very similar to the position they will be in with their new insurance policy: if they see their doctor and something is found to be seriously wrong, they have no access to the treatments for the condition without coming up with the deductible and out of pocket costs which will be out of reach for many. They may (and this is not likely) find providers who will treat them without them having met their deductible yet but they will be billed for the differences and then be forced into bankruptcy over the bills. This bill will not stop medical bankruptcies.

When you start talking of those who do not qualify for a subsidy, it gets less certain they will even have a policy unless they are pretty well heeled. People with this sort of money probably already have coverage. Federal policy guidelines would put a couple making 52,281 per year outside the level for a subsidy. If that same couple happens to be older their premium will be quite high (There is nothing really to force the price of premiums down. We can argue if it will slow the rate of increases in the future but they aren't coming down from today's levels). My husband and I were paying $1200 per month for our premiums and that was before we dropped it almost 3 years ago. We all know that premium could be up to around $1700 by now. But let's just assume this couple is still getting $1200 rate. That is 25% of their income which is like a second house note in my part of the country and more than a mortgage in a lot of the country. I know very few at this income level who could afford a second house. Add to that the deductibles and out of pocket expenses and this couple will, no way, be able to afford this coverage. Now, they will get a waiver so they are not fined (as the policy is more than 17% of their income) but they will still not have coverage. So, these people get nothing from the bill. Let's assume they are a bit younger than the above couple so their premium is just under 17% of their income. That's a couple who will be paying $740 per month. At that income level it might be doable but it will be a stretch depending on the cost of living in their area (and this is a huge problem with the Federal Poverty Guidelines, they do not take this into account and the price of housing is never considered but that's another discussion entirely). Let's assume their mortgage is $1200 per month because in my area that is a modest home. They are now darned close to 50% of their monthly income going out just for the mortgage and their health insurance. If they have a car note, they're really scrapping, now. A lot of these people will not be able to afford the coverage (and if they do, they will certainly go bankrupt over the out of pocket expenses should they wind up with a serious illness). If they opt not to obtain coverage they will be fined. The fine may be affordable but they still don't have coverage.

3) This bill will stop denials for preexisting conditions

I have always said people who can already afford coverage but have been denied due to preexisting conditions is one of 2 groups who will be helped by this bill. First off, you have to realize the community ratings system in the bill allows a multiplier of 3X for age and a lot of older people are the ones with preexisting conditions. So, they're in the same boat as all older Americans as far as being able to afford the coverage. Now, until some bought out asshole in the Senate slipped that loophole allowing rescissions to continue into the bill I would have said younger people with preexisting conditions would be helped by this bill if they can afford the coverage. But, with that loophole in there, now, it is not clear this is, necessarily, true. These may find themselves facing the same issue many face, already. They pay for the coverage for a period of time and, as soon as the insurance company decides they are tired of paying out for them, they will search their medical files and history, find a condition they neglected to mention on their application, and call it fraud and cancel their policy. There is nothing I've seen in the bill which changes that scenario. Once that loophole got in there my previous belief that those who could already afford coverage or younger people with a preexisting condition would be helped got a lot more uncertain.

4)This bill will end rescissions and you will be covered as long as you paid your premiums

Untrue and addressed above

5) This bill will stop insurance companies from imposing annual or lifetime limits

Half true. It will not allow lifetime caps but they weaseled in a loophole for annual caps

6) This will expand Medicaid coverage for the poor

True. This is the 2nd group I have always said would be better off with the bill than without it (and I am in this group, now) and this one that has not changed. This will be a group who does not have coverage now who will have it if the bill passes. But, before we get out the party hats, it is important to note, though, that many areas have no practitioners who take Medicaid patients as the reimbursement rates are abysmal. Finding a primary care provider is doable in some areas but specialists are out of reach almost everywhere (at least everywhere I have worked with this population). So I, cautiously, call this an improvement because those who have, previously, fallen just outside the guidelines will now be eligible. I'm not discounting this. It was always very frustrating to work with patients who really needed this help only to have the state decide they made $2 a month too much money. But, just like those in the above scenario, many of the people who fall into this group will now have 'coverage' but many of them will still have no access to health care. So, maybe some help, maybe not, is the status of this part depending on the person and their medical needs and the area in which they live.

It is worth taking a minute to look at the unintended consequences (because we all know there are always unintended consequences).

The downward pressure on the working and middle classes here can not be overlooked: You have to consider the couples spoken of in # 1 & 2 above. Let's assume this couple is in their 50's and their income is just below the 400% of FPL level. Let's say they are making $50,000 per year. They are not rich but they're making it. They bought their home here a while back so their mortgage is $900 per month-below the 25% of income guideline. They have to commute for work cause housing near the job is out of reach. They have one car note and another paid for car. Let's assume they are one of the rare couples in the country who managed to get to this age without taking on debt after stagnant/declining wages over the past 30 years. So, they qualify for a subisidy which limits their part of the premium payments to $5000 per year, a little over $415 per month. Well, that's doable. The 2nd car is getting a little long in the tooth and they had hoped for a newer one but they'll keep this one going as best they can and get a policy cause they are at an age where it's smart to do so. They'll figure something out, eventually. Well, they are stuck right where they are. Because if their income goes up just 5% they are outside the guideline for the subsidy. Now, their premium is $14,400 per year or $1200 per month. Where will they find that extra $785 per month? Hell, they couldn't find the extra $300 for a newer car. Their income increase of $166 per month will decrease their disposable income by more than $600 per month. Two choices here: 1) they do without the coverage and hope they don't get sick, or, 2) they suck it up, and one of them (let's say the wife) gets a part time job to pay for the coverage and buy the newer car. Their lives are not as good. They have less time together but they have the insurance and the newer car. Then, the wife is diagnosed with a very aggressive breast cancer and must start treatments immediately. She has to quit the part time job. In addition their policy has a $2000 deductible and a $5000 out of pocket cap for the year. They can no longer afford the premium, anyway. If, by some miracle, they manage to keep making the premium so she can get treatment, they are still at risk of going bankrupt over their part of the expenses. And, even if they remain healthy, these people are not, without some miracle, ever going to be financially in the same place they were before their income went up $166 per month.

Let's assume a better scenario for this couple. The wife gets a job that provides coverage and it's a union job, working for the state. The pay is about the same but the benefits are great! They are ecstatic! Their part of the premium passed on from their employer is only $250 per month and it has an actuarial value of 90% with a $500 deductible and maximum out of pocket expenses of $1000 per year. They have it made! Then the Senate bill passes as is. Ut oh! The premiums are at the level which will be taxed. The insurance company raises the rates. The state's budget shortfall is already getting desperate. They change to a lower cost policy. The wife's part of the premium goes up $50 per month and now the coverage is 70% and the deductible is $2000 per year with an out of pocket maximum of $5000 per year. This means $7,600 dollars out of their pocket if one of them get seriously ill.

Let's look at one more part of the bill that gets little press but is quite damaging. That's the Ensign amendment. Those who thought they're good whether the bill passes or not because they have coverage at work are in for a real treat over this. This allows insurance companies to sell policies to employers which can target people with certain conditions with premiums grossly higher than those without. Heh! People buying on their own may not be discriminated against for having a preexisting condition but those who get their coverage through work will not be so lucky. The employer will be able to force you into a 'wellness program' and, if you don't meet certain goals, you will be charged vastly more for your part of the premium. Some of these goals, we can argue, would be within the control of the employee like losing weight or quitting smoking. But one of the conditions will be high cholesterol. Not heart disease, mind you, just a number on a lab report. Most cholesterol problems are genetic. They are virtually intractable to patient behavioral changes. Even if you are not at risk for any heart disease due to your cholesterol level, you will be forced to take statins to lower this number or pay through the nose for the coverage. And, just for myself, if I didn't have some serious risk for heart disease I would not be taking a statin drug I don't need if I had a choice. Besides that do you really want your employer this intimately involved in the details of your health? This amendment was made possible by a last minute executive order signed by Bush which removed some of the HIPAA protections that allowed you to keep your protected health information private.

The employer mandate: The bill will not require employers to provide coverage but will fine them if they don't provide it and an employee qualifies for and gets a subsidy to buy from the exchange. Look for single mothers in lower paid occupations (a mother with one child will qualify for a subsidy if she makes up to $58,800 per year) to have a hell of a time getting hired.

There's more, like the effects of the cuts to Medicare which will, likely, lead to a new push for privatization of that system and a huge backlash against the party once people see the ill effects of the bill but I'll stop for now. I hope this has illustrated that those opposed to this bill are not just heartless people who don't care if Americans die in the streets without insurance but that we do have some really legitimate concerns here that this bill will not help many and it will do a lot of damage.

Perhaps, instead of screaming at the opponents, we should be screaming at our legislators and letting them know we are aware of the poison pills in this bill and want them out of there. Right now they see 2 groups of constituents: the bat shit crazy right wingers who oppose the bill without having any idea what's in it and the supporters who thing we're entering a new age of social justice with passage of the bill. They need to know there is a big group out here who are demanding some real reform of this system and we don't think this bill is it.

edited for punctuation
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
38.  Naughty laughingliberal, you're trying to confuse everyone with FACTS
I know that a lot of people are desperate for health care. This won't help many of them, because the criteria for affordability are not adjusted for personal circumstances or location.

You're in the position of someone who is advocating a quack cure for cancer. Yes, there are desperate people out there dying, but Oil de Snake isn't the cure they need and may make their condition work.

The two major problems with American health care are access and cost. This bill solves neither problem.

Massachusetts, which is the closest real-world analogue to the proposed bills, now has the highest health care costs of anywhere in the world.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Lol. Just a bad habit of mine.
You're exactly right about the major problems: access and cost. And the bill does not solve either.

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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Beautiful post. nt
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. thank you.
:)
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. Thank you.
If there is an annual cap, there is a lifetime cap since we all shuffle off this mortal coil.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. good point!
Edited on Tue Mar-09-10 03:03 PM by laughingliberal
but I will clarify, somewhat. AFAICS, the annual cap will not be a global cap. For instance, not a cap on the total amount for the year. It is allowed to be an annual cap for certain conditions. For instance, your treatment for cancer diagnosis is capped at, let's just say, $40,000 per year (and for those who don't know, this would not cover a year's worth of treatment for a serious cancer). That means you're 1/2 way through your radiation and chemo (if you're lucky) and your coverage just ran out. Good luck with that.

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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
63. You should make this a thread.. I'd K&R in a second...
Nice work, short succinct and to the point. :toast:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Thanks! I'll give that some thought.
Will have to get my flame retardant helmet set, first, and prepare for a lot of, "you're just spreading bullshit," responses from many who have not read the bill. ;)
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. Thank you for pulling all that together in one fantastic post
I hope everyone reads it, and especially thinks about those last two paragraphs, maybe it'll reduce the hyperbolic "you'll have blood on your hands" rhetoric flying around here. I'm assuming people want to actually understand opposition to the bill, which may be an error, but in any case I'm bookmarking this thread for your wonderful summary.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Thank you! Yeah, it's weird that, after 26 years of taking care of some of the sickest and poorest
in our society, to the great detriment of my own potential for financial success and health, I am now accused of being a heartless purist who would, happily, watch 45,000 people a year die cause I didn't get a pony. I've watched many people die over the years and I have no stomach for seeing it happen needlessly. I certainly would not be opposing a bill that I thought would alleviate much of the death and suffering lack of access to our health care system causes.

I've fought for health care reform since before most of my detractors ever knew anything was wrong with our health care system, perhaps before some of them were born, and I certainly would not be opposing a bill that would start to improve this system. I think those who want health care reform would be better served to be out in front of their legislators offices with signs raising a ruckus and letting them know we want real reform than attacking the people online who have noticed the emperor is naked AND perverted. I hope we wake up in time and get some real pressure on these legislators before the nightmare is reality.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
69. That was some news we can use
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. Mandates, Incrementalism, & Zeke Emanuel
Zeke Emanuel is a "Health Care" advisor to POTUS Obama.

His idea is to phase out Medicare by the use of mandates; those that come under the private for profit mandate system will stay under that system when reach Medicare age and Medicare will; be phased out. Neo-liberals are big on privatization.

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Yep. And anyone who can not see that this bill is purposely laying the foundation for that just
isn't reading carefully. I didn't even address this part in my post as it's beyond the comprehension of many to see the poison pill, there.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. Nice comprehensensive post up thread nt
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. thank you
:)
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
60. The problem is GREED, those that don't gain won't support others who will
see Massachusetts, they did not care about HCR for millions of others, they have it already.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. those who won't gain will be most of the American people
There are a, still questionable, very few who might see some very little benefit they don't have now but it's precarious at best.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
70. How si will be fucked over personally
I have shitty age-rated insuranc right now, as well as ongoing medical expenses. At the moment, I can afford both. In the event of financial emergency, now I would be able to drop the shitty insurance to pay for ongoing care. AFter "reform." the IRS goes after me if I try to do that.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Yes, that's the problem with mandated private insurance
I would happily pay into a public system or heavily regulated a la Germany or the Netherlands private insurance.

But I resent every penny that our current set of vultures automatically withdraws from my bank account every month (the only way they'll accept payment) to pay for the massive expenses of sending me letters telling me that I haven't met my deductible yet.
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