If this health care bill is going to be so great for insurance companies why a re they fighting

[Maraya1969]

it? I hear it all over this place how mandatory health insurance will be a boon to these companies but I think there is something that we don't know that is in the bill that will hurt them. Otherwise why are the lobbyists and the Republicans trying so hard to smash the bill?

[Fumesucker]

1. Please don't throw me in dat briar patch Brer Fox..

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Seriously. A 5 year old can figure out what they're doing. eom

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. Eggzactly!

I know that Disney movie "Song of the South" is no longer shown because of the racial stereotypes, but it's a shame that the whole "Brer Rabbit" story got lost as a result, because a lot of people missed out on how well that scenario can work as political spin.

[Faryn Balyncd]

30. +1000

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. regulation

They don't like regulation. Yeah, and also their profits have to be proportionate to the money spent on health care.

[tkmorris]

3. Are they?

Seriously. Months back every other ad on all the major cable news channels was some lobbying group advising on the evils of reform and selling how great some insurance company was. I haven't seen any of those ads in weeks now. Seems to me like maybe they think they have accomplished what they wanted and have moved on.

[Oregone]

4. Are they fighting to kill it or fighting to influence it?

They've already suceeded in making the choice between the Senate bill and nothing. Don't be so quick to assume that they prefer to be angry in the cold while inevitable reform is being drafted, instead of in the room at the table.

http://www.businessinsider.com/healthcare-lobbyists-descend-on-massachusetts-to-save-the-60th-vote-for-reform-2010-1

[gkhouston]

10. +1. Their first choice would be "no reform" but they've definitely co-opted

the "reform" to serve their purposes. Funny how they managed to keep that anti-trust exemption, now isn't it?

[Hello_Kitty]

6. You do know that Wellpoint lobbyists wrote the bill don't you? eom

[Oregone]

9. Ted Kennedy on the original NHIPA:

This bill is "a partnership between the administration and the private health insurance industry. For the private industry, the administration plan offers a windfall of billions of dollars annually. The windfall is not entirely a surplus, since elements of Administration's proposal appear to have originated in the insurance industry itself"


Its sad the Democratic Party resurrected this bill decades later.

[Pithlet]

7. It's a good question! The answer is that of course it will hurt them.

Passing this would be a good thing. I don't get the opposition. I haven't. It has puzzled me for the longest time. Yes, it's not single payer. But we weren't ever going to get that any time soon because it sucks in this country. That's reality. I've been mostly keeping my mouth shut because having poo flung at you is no fun, but I'm just so frustrated anymore. I wish someone would actually point out why doing nothing is so much better with actual cold hard facts. But I haven't seen any. Just mostly sloganeering about how it's a giveaway to the insurance companies. I think if that were true, they wouldn't be fighting it, as you say. The repubs would be all for it. In fact, they would have proposed it themselves. I don't get it. Killing it until we get what we want won't get us what we want any faster. It didn't work all the other times that happened.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. People have posted well reasoned and factual critiques of the plan for months.

Plus, I see plenty of sloganeering from supporters. Along with guilt trips, ad hominems, and appeals to authority.

[Pithlet]

14. Every single post has been filled with errors. I haven't seen a single factual post

that pointed to killing it is better than doing nothing. Not one. Sorry.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. And I haven't seen a single post in support

That wasn't based, at least in part, on unfounded wishful thinking about future events.

[Pithlet]

25. Well, since it's a bill about changing a system

Doesn't that kind of make sense? It's about effecting change for the better? :shrug:

[Ozymanithrax]

12. There are two great falsehoods expressed in the fight against Health Care.

One fantsy/falshood/delusion is that Obamacare is creeping socialism and if we go down that path, and before we know it, they will kill our grandmothers and then take our property making us a nation of lazy good for nothing poor people. This falsehood has been unleashed to stop any Health Care Reforem.

The other fantsy/falshood/delusion is that it is Corporate wellfare designed to force every American to turn over their hard core cash to monstrous corporations run by myserious investors who are TPTB and rule the world in a secret facisim. This falsehood has been unleashed to stop any Health Care Reforem.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. Bullshit strawman.

The other fantsy/falshood/delusion is that it is Corporate wellfare designed to force every American to turn over their hard core cash to monstrous corporations run by myserious investors who are TPTB and rule the world in a secret facisim. This falsehood has been unleashed to stop any Health Care Reforem.

They don't rule in secret fascism. They do it right out in the open.

[Ozymanithrax]

22. That was not a straw man argument. It was a description of one argument...

which you actually seem to agree with, except for secret part.

I assume that you see the bill as corporate welfare. And argument that I see as one of the two great false arguments used against the bill.

[Hello_Kitty]

26. Painting your opponent as a conspiracy theorist is a classic derailing tactic.

I see right through it.

Furthermore, if you don't see how handing corporations billions in subsidies and letting them determine what constitutes "medical spending" is corporate welfare I don't know what to tell you.

[Ozymanithrax]

29. I did not paint my oponent as a conspiricy theorist.

I just pointed out that the belief in the idea of corporate welfare is a big as fantasy as the socialism buggabo.

[Faryn Balyncd]

31. You falsely painted your opponents as believers in a "delusion" of "secret fascism" (in your words)

.....which pretty much fits the definition of painting your opponents as conspiracy theorists.

The fact is that you would be hard-pressed to find any opponent on this board that believes in a "secret fascism" or any other "secret" conspiracy.

to the contrary, you will find overwhelming numbers on this board that recognize the reality of how corporate interests have manipulated this bill to their benefit.

Yet, rather than argue these facts, you choose to smear your opponents as "deluded" believers in "secret fascism" or other "fantsy" (as you chose to spell it both times in your comment #12)

And when confronted about your smears, you choose to lie, and expect to get away with a claim that to label your opponents as "deluded" believers in "fantsy" (sic) and "secret fascism" is not equivalent to calling them "conspiracy theorists".





:kick:

[Hello_Kitty]

32. Neither are "buggaboos". Both exist.

Corporate welfare is simply a term of art to describe using public dollars to subsidize private entities, more for the purpose of enriching those entities than for the public good.

[Ozymanithrax]

34. The belief that Obamacare is socialism is a buggabo used to frighten republcians.

It is mirrored by the idea that the bill is just corporate wellfare used to funnel money to evil corporations.

Neither is true.

[Faryn Balyncd]

40. When the last vestige of a "public option" (the Medicare-Buy-In option) was removed from the bill...

......it became clear that the no-public-option mandate that currently is called "reform" is, in essence, a corporatist bill.


In the context of having a paid White House adviser, Zeke Emanuel, who has been openly pushing a plan of mandatory, all private, compulsory insurance, with the stated intention of the gradual privatization Medicare itself, it is clear that what we are on the verge of passing is a step in the diametrically opposite direction of a public plan like Medicare available as an option for all Americans, which is what the great majority of Americans have, in poll after poll, stated they support, even as they state opposition to a no-public-option mandate.


This is not secret. It is plain as day. And it is the exact opposite of what we worked for in getting this president elected. and it is the opposite of what he claimed to support.


And passing such a mandate will kill us in November.





:kick:





"If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not health insurance reform…it rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose Medicare if they’re under 65 or not. If they are allowed to choose Medicare as an option, this bill will be real health care reform...."

- Howard Dean

[Demoiselle]

13. My sense of the argument is that we need to get a foot in the door.

...To use technical, health care terms.

[PHIMG]

15. They want the deal wall street got - a bailout with no strings attached

There are a few strings in the bill that the insurers don't like but they SURE LOVE the mandate and the fat subsidies with no cap on premiums.

There are CEOs in this industry who want Obama to fail no matter what. Call them dead enders. But the majority of the Insurance company CEOS see this bill for what it is -- a bailout.

[Warpy]

16. That's the question I keep asking

and it keeps being met by dead silence.

Why the ridiculous 30%+ rate increases all of a sudden unless it's a last minute feeding frenzy before they all start having to play by a few rules?

Why the constant barrage of propaganda that this bill won't do anything for any of us? Why the constant barrage of propaganda that it's such a bonanza for the insurance industry and only rips the public off?

Don't get suckered, people. Likely this bill contains some significant reforms that will derail the greedhead gravy train. All they're trying to do now is delay it long enough to cash in so the upper management can retire in Paradise.

[Maraya1969]

36. That is one point I forgot about. Why ARE the insurance companies

hiking up rates 30% if not to make as much profits before the bill goes into effect. Maybe there rules in the bill that make it illegal to increase premiums over a certain percentage amount.

[Selatius]

17. Insurance companies don't mind everybody being mandated to pay. What they mind is REGULATION.

Under the bill, they'd have to remove lifetime caps on their health insurance plans. They'd also be banned from avoiding people for "pre-existing" conditions, so now they'd be covered. They'd also be banned from rescission or yanking a plan with little or no excuse or warning. Subsidies would be provided to the poorest to help purchase private insurance, but I don't believe it is clear yet how the government can prevent these subsidies from ballooning out of control in a system where everybody incessantly tacks on profit mark-ups on the services they provide.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. Oh, they have a way to make sure the subsidies don't balloon

The bill allows subsidies to be cut if costs go up by a certain amount. But we'll still have the mandate. Good old "bending the cost curve" there, where the "bend" more of the cost onto you.

[Selatius]

24. This is true, but then it becomes "Why have health insurance if I can't even afford to use it?"

If the premiums alone are crippling, imagine being hit with the co-pays and deductibles whenever you do have to access it. It will drive up the bankruptcy rate in America.

[mdmc]

19. They currently hold all the card except for public support

They would love to keep the current deal going.
But they see the writing on the wall - people don't like having their medical treatment determined by what is profitable for the insurance companies instead of what their doctor thinks they need.
So the corporations buy influence, and write a "reform" bill that they can live with and continue to profit from.

I think that the corporations had no idea that corporate media could muddle "reform" so much that there would be a real possibility of beating back the reform effort.

So they buy the dems and the pukes, they write the bill, and get the best "reform" for themselves. We in turn get "reform" that is a little better then what is happening now.

[Larkspur]

23. The health insurance industry is not fighting it that hard

They want the mandate that forces us to buy their crappy product and they can charge up to 3 times the lowest premium rate for those that have pre-existing conditions, are overweight and have any other problems that could lower their profits.

What they fought hard was the public option and Medicare buy-in which would bring competition to the market place. They know that if Americans had a choice, many would go with the government sponsored program.

While Wendell Potter says to vote for the Senate HCR bill, he did explain to Moyers that the health insurance companies still win big time. Potter is hoping that fixes to the senate bill, which include a public option and/or Medicare buy-in, will be passed shortly afterwards.

[Pithlet]

28. Why are people so hung up on the fact that the insurance companies win somehow?

You know what? I could give a flying fudge if health insurance companies actually do benefit somehow from all this? It does seem to me that some are just so blinded by their hatred of insurance companies that they're missing the big picture. Yeah, so maybe they will benefit some from this bill. Maybe they do actually like some of the aspects of it. Who cares, if it helps get more people covered, and gives more people access to care! We're not going to get single payer. We need to deal and move on. We're not going to get all the things we wanted. It does suck. I absolutely hate it, too. But we need to take what we can get. Even of some of those things do somehow benefit those companies. Because we have a system that depends on insurance companies. Does it suck! Yes. But if spitting on the health insurance companies causes harm to those who need them to access care, then I' not going to be party to that.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. Sigh.

It's not blind hatred, pithlet. It's a hatred borne of years of watching them deny people care and profit off of death and misery. You want to hand a bunch of sociopathic parasites billions of dollars and subsidies with a mandate to buy their lousy product, while trusting that they and the politicians they've been buying off for decades will do the right thing.

[Selatius]

37. Perhaps the hatred is borne from the fact that they DENIED honest people health care and they died?

How many relatives have you had to watch fight tooth and nail with their insurance company when they were in the hospital or trying to recover? And how many others were unfortunate enough to be denied any access to insurance because they had "pre-existing" conditions and didn't have enough money to cover their own medical bills? According to one study, roughly 45,000 Americans died each year unnecessarily due to lack of health care or sub-standard coverage that caused them to refuse preventive treatment that could've saved them from dying when they did.

In light of this, can you honestly fucking blame them for disliking the health insurance industry?

[eridani]

42. We hate them because they kill and bankrupt peoplr for profit?

Just sayin'.

[Larkspur]

43. Health Ins Cos = the real Death Panels

That's why most progressives hate the health ins cos. What Progressives want is for a government sponsored single payer, like Medicare, to be a choice we could have.

[upi402]

27. Does the mafia want ANY laws?

Is this a serious question?

[Schema Thing]

35. Why "something we don't know"? We know that the bill puts serious limits

on their profits, for one thing.


It also forces them to accept everyone. It keeps them from selling worthless junk.

[ShortnFiery]

39. No it doesn't. They can raise premiums "at will" before it goes into effect and they get MANDATES

from millions of working Americans. If these workers "fall ill" they will have to declare bankruptcy.

However, the abject poor and super rich will be just fine. :crazy:

Good-bye working class, hello indentured servitude for the masses via MANDATES.

[uponit7771]

38. LOFL!!! They Kill Billers started out with rope a dope!!!

[eridani]

41. So, why no Harry and Louise ads?

That should tell you that any disapproval is of the "Please don't throw me into that briar patch" sort.

[slipslidingaway]

44. They're Baaack -- New 'Harry and Louise' Ad Is for Health Care Reform

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/the-note-theyre-baaack-new-harry-and-louise-ad-is-for-health-care-reform.html

“Well it looks like we may finally get health care reform,” Harry tells Louise in the new ad, "Get the Job Done." "A little more cooperation, a little less politics, and we can get the job done this time," responds Louise.

The new $4 million ad airing this weekend on the Sunday talk shows comes from the original producer of the first series, and is sponsored by two large insurance companies, Families USA and PhRMA. The ad will run for several weeks on cable and broadcast networks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOr17a4ZOIU