..."But it "brings in" 30 Million Americans to Health Care Coverage..."

[bvar22]

LOL.

The Senate Bill does NOT "bring in" anybody.
It FORCES 30 Million (45MIllion?) Americans to BUY crappy (High deductible/High Co-Pay)"Insurance" most can't afford to use.
Even with a partial "subsidy", most of these people will be required to "come out of THEIR pockets" with more money.

I don't think they are going to like this.

I will be 60 in a month.
I am "self-unemployed".
I haven't been able to afford Health Insurance for the last 8 years.
I will be eligible for a nice "subsidy".

I STILL OPPOSE this Bill because it enshrines the Health Insurance Industry as the gateway to Health Care in America!
There will be NO "Fix it Later", especially after the LOSSES in 2010.

Mandated Profits for the Health Insurance Industry ?
No thanks!

* Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of a government administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?

Favor 82%

Oppose 14%

Not Sure 4%
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010010320/poll-shouts-message-massachusetts-voters-were-sending

If the Democratic Party wants keep claiming to be the "Party of the People",
its time to PROVE IT!


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans." ---Paul Wellstone


No wonder he had to die.

[Echo In Light]

1. k/r

[NightWatcher]

2. +10000 k and r

[laughingliberal]

3. Just heartbreaking to see the picture of Wellstone and compare that to the crop

we're up against now. People are going to be shocked when they see how little help is in this bill and how much damage it will do, not just to health care, to our entire working and middle class.

[Cleita]

8. Don't forget the burden it will bring to our economy.

It could bankrupt us and it doesn't need to be that if wiser heads had prevailed.

[laughingliberal]

14. +1 nt

[sgalindez]

18. It will help me

I get denied for being overweight. I need the pre-existing conditions reform.

[laughingliberal]

21. Be careful of nasty surprises in that bill.

It's not all that the talking points would have you believe.

[bvar22]

34. Rightly so.

BUT you do NOT have to accept the rest of this loathsome bill in order to get that.
Do you realize you are being held for "ransom" by the Health Insurance Cartel and their bought "Centrist" Democrats?

"Give us a TRILLION Dollars and a de-facto MONOPOLY with MANDATED "customers", and we might let people with PECs BUY our bad products."
You DO realize that the HICs CAN still turn you down for "other" reasons?

The TRUTH is that the Democrats CAN pass a law preventing HICs from excluding PECs.
They CAN do it with a clean, easy to understand Stand Alone Bill ....
if they wanted to.

The House passed a clean, stand alone Bill removing the Anti-Trust Exemption last week.
They did NOT have to give ANYONE a Trillion Dollars.
The Republicans were too frightened to oppose it.
These individual issues are very popular with the People....easy to sell, and VERY difficult for the Republicans to oppose.

The Republicans can easily oppose the current 2800 page HCR Bill as "Government taking over Health Care". THAT can RESONATE with low information voters.
They CANNOT become the Party that SUPPORTS Health Insurance Corps denying coverage for PECs.

The same thing holds TRUE for every single other "GOOD" part of this package.
They can ALL be broken out, and offered as simple Stand Alone Reform Bills.
Its ALL in the marketing.

We do NOT have to eat the rest of this pile of shit to get the few good crumbs.

[Donnachaidh]

56. big deal -- there is NO caps on the amount they can CHARGE you for your pre-existing condition

So -- are you prepared to pay ANY amount for the pissy insurance they will be REQUIRED to offer you? Do you think you'll be getting charged the same as the skinny dude next door?

And now you'll be forced to buy insurance - if not expect the IRS to knock on your door. So do you really want to pay for insurance that you can't afford, and most likely will not be able to use - because all your cash will be going to premiums?

Still think it will help?

[Fumesucker]

4. K&R

[Cleita]

5. You are right. It doesn't bring access to health care, just some possible

coverage that may or may not pay for actual health care needs.

[dkf]

6. Well you can get a subsidy, which will still make it unaffordable, or an exemption from

the mandate.

Not sure how that improves your situation.

[bvar22]

12. That doesn't matter to me.

I WILL let the "Democratic" Party make me a criminal, and risk dieing on my own before I will give a single damned nickel to a For Profit Health Insurance Corporation!

[laughingliberal]

15. I'm right there with you on that. nt

[Desertrose]

23. Same here.....

[Donnachaidh]

57. where is this *exemption* from the mandate?

Seriously -- where exactly in the bill is there any evidence of an exemption?

[L0oniX]

7. 30 Million? Oh well ...screw the other 30+ million.

Hmmm the figure was 46 million without adding all the newly unemployed and those unemployed who are no longer collecting UI ...and then there's the homeless and forgotten. I believe its more like 60+ million with no HC insurance.

[bvar22]

24. Indeed!

30 Million is a Low Ball.
I'm only repeating what the "Corporate/Centrist" Democrats are hyping and parroting.
I believe Obama himself used that figure.
There are many more MILLIONS of Americans in desperate need of Access to Health Care.
Forcing them to BUY crappy "Insurance" from the worst sociopathic Corporations does NOT give them "access to Health Care".

[Donnachaidh]

58. notice how those extras got *disappeared* from the conversation?

So they don't count, evidently.

[jannyk]

9. K&R!!!!!

[mdmc]

10. Here is why I support this bill

1. NAMI supports it.
2. Obama supports it.
3. Labor is now (apparently) supporting it.
4. And the GOP opposes it.

I think that this bill is shitty. But in for a penny, in for a pound..

[Donnachaidh]

59. so you'll lock your kids into a corporate giveaway being backed by

the IRS as it's enforcers?

Your kids and grandkids will not be so lackadaisical in their *thanks* for that *in for a penny* nonsense.

[mdmc]

61. I am too sick and too poor to ever have children of my own

While I would prefer to have single payer, I still will support this bill over nothing. It is a little better then nothing, imho.

Greyson's medicaid bill is much better, imho. I would take it and advocate for passing it hardcore.

For the record I have no clout over what passes and what fails to pass. It seems that the corporations will only allow this limited "reform", so it is all that we can hope for.

[DevonRex]

11. Union leaders like the bill.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7880382

[bvar22]

22. Appeal to Authority is a Logical Fallacy.

There were "Union Leaders" who liked NAFTA.
There were "Union Leaders" celebrating with the "Centrist" Democrats at the NAFTA signing ceremony.

They don't answer to me.
I don't answer to them.

I do KNOW that the current Bill (The Senate Bill with Obama's face on the label) will HARM High end Health Care Plans that UNIONS negotiated.

For a "review" of the "Cadillac Tax", watch THIS video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x420430

FIX it FIRST.
Pass it later.
There will be NO "Fixing it LATER".

"By their works you will know them".

[ProSense]

26. "Appeal to Authority is a Logical Fallacy"?

Appears this bogus talking point only applies when the unions support, not oppose the President.

[DevonRex]

31. ding ding ding!!!

You have won the thread, my dear ProSense!

[bvar22]

32. I s that ANOTHER "Appeal to Authority"?

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

40. Very true. I recall that I "caught on" to that RUSE when AARP supported the GOP's bill.

When it comes to the functioning of our Government: FOLLOWS THE MONEY and you will always get to "the truth."

[Greyhound]

48. Now, now. When all you've got are logical fallacies, that's what you use.

How does that go again...

"you don't debate with the facts you wish you had..."
:eyes:

[eridani]

47. Union rank and filers despise it

http://www.labornotes.org/2010/01/anger-over-health-care-bill-creates-uncertain-future

“I’ve never seen this much anger at the Democrats from union people,” said Jeff Crosby, president of a General Electric factory local near Boston, as he prepared a last-minute leaflet to hand out in the plant. “It’s worse than NAFTA.”

Top union leaders had bargained a compromise slowing down the health care benefits tax President Obama insisted on, but it was not enough to placate union members—and others—infuriated that Obama had broken his campaign promise not to tax benefits.

Crosby said his members were threatening to vote Republican to stop the tax, since 60 Democratic senators and no Republicans had voted for it. In Massachusetts’ special election they chose empty-suit Republican Scott Brown over a Democrat bound to cement the benefits tax in place.

[inna]

13. KR

All I can say... see my sig.

I'm so sick and tired of this crap that we have to put up with thanks to our (supposedly) representatives. x(

[Swamp Rat]

16. Not me.

I guess I will go another decade without insurance and check-ups. :(

[Enthusiast]

17. Nice, bvar22!

You read my thoughts.

[madrchsod]

19. most bankruptcies are caused medical bills

and of those most have insurance. my 20% cost me 20 thousand plus and bankruptcy. i have 2 years before medicare where they can`t force me into bankruptcy but what ever my estate is they`ll get.

we are the only first nation country that forces people into bankruptcy and beg-a-thons because of illness.

this bill does nothing to stop this problem.

[AzDar]

20. K & R

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I support the bill because Rush said he would leave the country if it passed

That's a good enough reason for me.

[Cleita]

27. If I had that in writing, I would too. LOL!

[Oilwellian]

43. Irony being...

the country of his choice to escape to, has universal health care. This bill is a steaming pile of fascist shit pie and I want no part of it.

[Greyhound]

49. That nearly swung me over, but then I know that republiks never pay their markers and

no civilized nation on earth wants him, so he's kind of like the nuclear waste he's so fond of, our problem not to be dumped on others.

[PVnRT]

51. You know, maybe we can find another use for Yucca Mountain...

[leftstreet]

28. K&R

[Raine]

29. They even have the gall to say it "allows"

30 million to buy insurance ... "allow"??? :wtf: I don't call being forced as being "allowed". Using that term should "allow" one not to participate.

[G_j]

30. yes, a bit of a language problem there

that's like saying you're allowed to pay taxes.

[Marr]

35. mispost

oops

[stillwaiting]

33. k and r

[ShortnFiery]

36. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Marr]

37. Obama's playing chess here.

Don't you get it? Everything up until this point-- the Wall Street bailouts, the avoidance of banking regulation, the talk of cutting entitlements... even this transparently corporate "healthcare bill" that does little more than institutionalize the crooks who are the very problem... it's all part of a brilliant plan! Once they pass this bill, they'll magically fix it and make it good for US!

And if it doesn't happen that way, it's all YOUR fault for not Hope©ing hard enough!!!!!

[bvar22]

41. That sums it up nicely.

:patriot:

[Oilwellian]

44. ROFL

Or, if it doesn't happen that way, it's all YOUR fault for believing me. :D

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. K&R

[Prism]

39. Sometimes, you gotta catapult the propaganda.

Others use a space cannon.

[BrklynLiberal]

42. That is a GREAT post. Thank you so much....

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Skittles]

45. bvar22 KNOWS THE SCORE

YES INDEED

[Stinky The Clown]

46. Cue Gumby in 5 ..... 4 ..... 3 ..... 2 ........

[freddie mertz]

50. They use the "bring in" and "covers" language to deceive the public...

Notice that "mandate" is a word that NEVER appears in the president's and other speeches and arguments FOR the plan.. you know, the ones that appear on TV.

I am convinced that the nosedive in the plan's popularity is a direct reflection of the TRUTH about the mandates slowly leaking out.

[piratefish08]

52. Speak the Truth!

[Mari333]

53. knr Im 60 in 1 yr

and right now I pay for stupid catastrophic health care. i.e., if I am hit by a goddamned truck I am covered. thats all. no doc visits, no tests, nada. no prescription coverage. and I have to pay a 10,000 deductible first.

I live on 900 a month now. I just dont go to the doctor. period. end of story.
people here in MI are using TIRES to heat their homes for christs sake. eating out of DOLLAR STORES.

the very idea that any of them can be forced to buy health insurance is appalling.

shit, they are barely surviving as it is.

[xchrom]

54. Recommend

[blindpig]

55. Sure will........

Head 'em up, move 'em out! Next stop, Chicago.

[PufPuf23]

60. This "HCR" is an atrocity and an upward transfer and

skewing of wealth.

I am much in your situation Bvar.

Had Cadillac health/dental from Feds 1972 to 1985 then large corporate til 1999 and no insurance since. I divorced 2000 and last step child graduated high school in 1999.

Spent 3 days in hospital for bleeding ulcer in Feb 2010 and 5 days for the same in 1993.

Have assets but no income for last two years except money market interest and 7 years short of Medicare in age. I am unemployed since selling my business in 2007 and zero prospects of having the same income I once enjoyed unless struck by lightning.

Left the hospital early this time against doctors orders because of cost but got there early also because I recognized the problem.

Have the same primary physician since 1989 I see 3-4X per year, since 1999 on a pay as I go basis and I take two RXs daily (that cost about $1/day using generics and a program that the pharmacy put me on; one med dropped from $90/month to $8 in 2008).

I have tried to buy insurance and have been refused or quoted figures $1200 and up per month for poor policies.

The Monday after my recent hospital stay I got a call from a counselor in the billing department who was very helpful. I did not qualify for Medicaid because I have assets (paid for home, 74 acres, vehicles, and savings to survive several years) and no debts.

I now have the total bills, about $14,800, but with the help negotiated down to $5200. I can chose a no interest payment plan as low as $200 a month or pay in full from savings.

My co-pays back in 1993 for the same problem with Cadillac insurance were about $5000.

If I have a future major "event", it will be paid for by my savings and Medicade liens on my assets according to the hospital payment counselor.

With hindsight, I made a wise decision to self-insure so far and maintain a good long term relation with a physician several years my junior.

If one pays any attention to the ideas of Zeke Emanuel (a "health care" advisor to Obama), the mandates are the incremental step to phasing out Medicare to totally privatize access to health care.

[bvar22]

62. That is the HUGE PROBLEM with the much touted ....

Expansion of Medicaid!!!
:party: :party: :party: :party:

To qualify for Medicaid, you must first SELL OFF everything you worked your whole life to build.