Holy Cripe! I worked with this teacher! Arrested for sex with middle school student.

[BeHereNow]

http://www.burbankleader.com/articles/2010/03/09/publicsafety/doc4b969fb4a66b1570060827.txt

"A Burbank Unified School District teacher turned herself in Monday for having sex with a 14-year-old student from March to September last year, police said.

Amy Beck, 33, a sixth-grade teacher at Jordan Middle School, surrendered Monday afternoon to Burbank police with her lawyer, and was being held on $400,000 bail, Burbank Police Sgt. Robert Quesada said.

“We’re still trying to piece everything together, what happened, where, what kind of sex acts, how many, and how long it’s been going on,” he said. “She walked in with her attorney . . . and said, ‘Hey, I came to surrender for what I did.’”

I can't believe it. I had lunch with this woman every day for 6 months.
The school is blocks from our house.
My daughter went there years ago.

I'm in total shock.
I'm glad I no longer work with the district.

What the hell is wrong with people?

BHN

[Maat]

1. I'm sorry for the shock.

That's what I learned as a social worker (I've been retired for years) - seemingly good people do CRAZY things.

[BeHereNow]

6. NEVER in a million years would I have suspected it.

She was always sweet, cheerful and seemed completely normal.

Guess you never know what's under the exterior.

I can tell you it will rock the city.
Burbank has a real "Ozzie and Harriet" tight knit community.

Many families have been here for decades.
Many of the teachers working in the schools went to those
very same schools and many have relatives still working in
the district.

I can not believe this woman, of all the teachers I have known
in our district, did this!

I can think of plenty I would see capable, have heard completely
inappropriate things out of the mouths of coaches at one
of the high schools, but NEVER in a million years would this particular
individual seem even remotely capable of this.

BHN

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Maybe she's innocent

Kids lie about this crap all the time.

[BeHereNow]

37. Read the article. She confessed, turned herself in at the station.

She fully admits the crime.

BHN

[nonconformist]

86. "Kids lie about this crap all the time."

:wtf:

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. One of my co-workers

Just a few months ago two girls accused him of molesting them both in class in front of their classmates.

Happens a lot. Yes kids lie about this all the time.

[Cirque du So-What]

7. I was never a social worker

but I too been shocked many times over the years by seemingly 'ordinary' people who harbor dark secrets & end up busted for doing horrific things. Suffice to say, nothing surprises me anymore.

[FarCenter]

2. Too bad -- looks like if she kept quiet about it there would be less damage to the school

Going to the police and publicizing this has a more negative effect on the other students, teachers, and parents.

[Lerkfish]

4. to hell with the school's PR, what about the kid?

jesus.

[BeHereNow]

11. The school's PR should be the LAST consideration.

The well being of the student and staff should be first and foremost.
I would think counseling services in order, not sweeping it under the rug.

BHN

[FarCenter]

18. I wasn't thinking about the PR so much as the psychological burden she has put on the other students

and teachers and staff. Yes, I'd think that this now requires counseling of students and staff.

[FarCenter]

14. Her going public isn't going to help the kid

If anything, it will make his situation more difficult -- unless you believe in the healing power of publicity.

Besides, he probably was a willing partner in the affair.

[BeHereNow]

19. NO child is a willing partner in a sexual relationship with an adult.

And here, in Burbank, there is NO way this would not have
gone public.

WE are a VERY small community.
Nothing happens here without everyone finding out eventually.

BHN

[Shell Beau]

35. Right. No child is ever a willing participant with an adult.

Period.

[hfojvt]

55. the kid was 14

I was certainly fantasizing about having sex with adults when I was 14. If one had had sex with me I probably would have felt like such a victim that I would have done all of her yardwork and snow shovelling for free. I am quite sure I would have been willing.

[Shell Beau]

61. She was an adult. And adult in a position of protecting children.

A 14 year old may not be a small child, but they are still a child. It may be normal for teens to fantasize about teachers and other people, but they should never be taken advantage of sexually by any adult.

[lapislzi]

69. Exactly.

It follows the "don't shit where you eat" rule. NEVER engage in a sexual relationship with someone with whom you also have a power relationship. It almost never ends well.

In this case, it's an abuse of trust--of parents, of administrators, of fellow teachers.

Wrong on every level of wrongness.

[Toasterlad]

100. Don't Bother.

Some people (usually women - imagine that?) just don't understand teenage boys.

[lapislzi]

106. Did I miss the irony tag on that?

Or are you for real?

[Toasterlad]

113. Very Much For Real. Allow Me To Quote Greg Giraldo:

"I’ve noticed a trend in the last year: putting older women in jail for having sex with teenage boys. Which I don’t really…really? That’s public enemy number one, that we gotta crack down on? Gettin’ these women? Osama bin Laden still out there; Michael Jackson is free to sack-tickle his way across Bahrain or wherever the fuck he is, and yet we’re putting these dreammakers in jail? For having sex with teenagers? Holy shit! You know, when it comes to like a 15-16 year old boy, any sex that doesn’t end with you limping out of a rectory is totally acceptable."

[lapislzi]

123. Whoa, dude.

We have two issues here, of which you are only addressing one. The bigger issue is that a TEACHER abused a position of trust and power. That is wholly unacceptable, morally reprehensible, and illegal, with good reason. Parents send their children to school with the expectation that their teachers will not be trying to get in their pants.

The second, lesser issue, is that of age disparity in a sexual relationship, and the gender disconnect. 18 is OK. 17 will get you in the papers, and not in the good way. Regardless of your gender. Almost all of the teenagers I know exhibit extremely poor judgment. As an adult, I can (and do) choose to eschew morally questionable behavior that could lead to unforeseen, unfortunate consequences. Are some of my daughter's friends hot? You bet they are. Have they made it know that they find me attractive? Yes, they have. Would I ever, ever act on that? No way, no how, never, jamais. That's why I'm the grownup.

The teenagers in question aren't the ones who should be making the judgment calls here. The adults are the ones who *should* be doing that.

Do I make myself clear?

[Toasterlad]

126. You Don't Understand 14 Year Old Boys

Do I make MYSELF clear?

[lapislzi]

128. What makes you think I don't HAVE one?

Hm?

I think you're making some pretty big assumptions and painting with one hell of a broad brush. I know exactly what boys are capable of, and that is exactly why I say that it is the adults who must exercise good judgment.

Don't get me wrong. If teenagers want to fuck each other's brains out (safely), then I have no problem with that. My problem is with the adults, especially those in a position of power or authority.

If the teacher in question was 20-something and NOT his teacher, I would be a lot more comfortable with that scenario. K?

[Toasterlad]

133. Having a Boy Doesn't Equal BEING a Boy.

I wonder how you'd react if I said I have sisters, so I know all about what girls feel?

I agree with you that female teachers should not fuck their willing male students. However, I am not going to crucify one for what amounts to nothing more than poor judgment. Generally, no harm is being done to the boy that's not being inflicted by other people telling him how he's supposed to feel

[lapislzi]

137. Not just the boy.

I'm not particularly worried about the boy. The teacher betrayed the implicit trust of parents, administrators, and her colleagues. While I'd agree that she doesn't deserve to go to prison, she should be censured and removed from the classroom.

(not running out on the discussion, but I have an appointment to keep. PM me if you would like to discuss further) LLL.

[Toasterlad]

139. I Can't Defend What She Did. I Can Only Say That I, Personally, Don't Have a Problem With It

Regardless of my feelings on the issue, what she did was illegal, and showed poor judgment. I agree that she should not be teaching.

[KonaKane]

166. The law does, though.

That's the paramount issue. Not only is what she did illegal, but it shows a repulsive abuse of her position of power in dealing with students.

[Toasterlad]

172. Yes, I've Conceded the Illegality.

However, I fail to see how she abused her power, unless she was making him fuck her for a better grade. If you're talking about her power as an adult, I doubt the boy minded that abuse.

[lapislzi]

125. self delete...dupe.

[liquid diamond]

116. I agree with you.

I remember being 14 and if I had a shot with a hot teacher, I'd hardly consider myself "unwilling". But that's just me. I don't speak for this kid or any other in situations like this.

[Chulanowa]

132. Right

Looking back to when I was 14, I can say that I very certainly would have been a willing partner. Not a doubt in my mind.

However, that was years and years and years ago. I'm an adult now, and can see exactly why such a relationship is illegal. At the very least, it's an abuse of power. Teacher propositions, student says no, teacher threatens to fail student? How about of the teacher gets pregnant, how does the father handle this? He doesn't, he hasn't a fucking clue. What we have here is NOT a relationship, it's an adult taking advantage of a child. The child may be perfectly willing, but it's still abuse of the situation.

[BR_Parkway]

57. Except many of the wives a couple generations back when marrying

off and starting a family early was considered the thing to do - and 15-16 year old who weren't married were spinsters.

My one grandmother was 15 when she married, the other 14. Both of them lived long happy lives with large families, both came from large families.

Obviously the idea that a person in a position of authority took advantage is wrong. And I'm certainly not advocating for this type of situation. But I've always found it curious that there's this general belief that certain things will harm people based on their age (and perceived lack of maturity) that go completely against things that were considered the norm less than 100 years ago. While I've not personally known many 14-15 year olds that I thought were ready for a mature relationship - I wonder how much of that is learned behavior versus natural since they sure seemed to back in my grandparents day (obviously there were abusive relationships back then as well). And I've certainly met many people in modern times who aren't ready for an adult relationship now - in spite of their being almost 30.

Of course, if he'd taken a gun and killed someone - there'd be plenty of people screaming to try him as an adult. But give him 4 more years and the military will give him a gun and tell him who to kill - they'll pin medals on his chest and he'd be worshiped as a hero when he came home.

Overall, we sure seem pretty screwy in what we really think about kids and how they grow up. Throw in sex, the other thing that seems to really get folks into a tizzy and I guess it's a guaranteed recipe for strong opinions and talk of dire consequences

[tonysam]

59. My mother was 14 when she married my dad, who was 23

Her mother was horrified the marriage happened, but she liked my dad so much she accepted it.

[Maru Kitteh]

196. None of my female ancestors married before their early to mid twenties.

Going back at least 3 generations - and several more on some lines - the average age seems to be about 23-24. The youngest was just over 20.

The same seems to hold of my husband's family as well.

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htm

[Zywiec]

99. Exactly, how will he be able to face his friends

when they know he had sex with her:

[LanternWaste]

25. I would imagine that...

I would imagine that justice-- whether sought or unsought, holds a somewhat greater priority than merely keeping up appearances.

[sufrommich]

27. Child molesters have negative effects on kids. nt

[Ms. Toad]

141. Doubt she had a choice.

She resigned without mentioning the reason, and "surrendered Monday afternoon to Burbank police with her lawyer." That sounds to me like she was caught, and arranged via her attorney to surrender in lieu of being arrested publicly and forced into a perp walk.

[Lerkfish]

3. someone here tried to assert that it was impossible for there to be

anyone capable of abusing their position as a school administrator or teacher in the merion laptop spying case because there were background checks. as your sad story tells us, background checks will not prevent future abuses.

I'm so sorry.

[BeHereNow]

9. Obviously, background checks can only screen out prior offenders.

Thanks for your sympathy.
It is quite shocking and painful to think about.

Those kids are babies, the middle school students.
It is horrific to think about.

BHN

[Glorfindel]

5. Reminds me of "Notes on a Scandal" with Cate Blanchett

A good movie, but profoundly disturbing, I thought. I had a huge crush on my 9th-grade Civics teacher when I was 14, so I can understand the kid, but NOT the teacher.

[BeHereNow]

8. Especially THIS teacher- we are talking choir girl demeanor!

Think of an Ivory Snow commercial- that would be her
most apt comparison.

BHN

[Kaleva]

13. a famous porn actress started out as an Ivory Snow model.

[Fumesucker]

20. Marilyn Chambers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Chambers

[SidDithers]

23. 99, 44/100ths Pure!...nt

Sid

[lapislzi]

94. The teacher is the one responsible for exercising good judgment

Kids have crushes on teachers all the time. I'm sure many teachers are attracted to students, especially when the students are older teens. The difference is, not everyone acts on his or her impulses. Some, sadly, are equipped with a moral override switch. The only "moral" affair is "my affair."

[DFab420]

10. I think I have a problem...

When it's older men sleeping with young female students I become irate and furious.

When it's older women sleeping with their young male students..I honestly..really am not too upset..

That, and she is pretty good looking...

Am I deranged? Or is it I always wanted to get with my 10th grade French teacher?

[BeHereNow]

15. You have never worked around this age group.

These students are still CHILDREN, barely approaching puberty.

It is a crime for ANY adult to have sex with a child.
It is outrageous to think a teacher would commit such a crime
with a student.

BHN

[Kaleva]

21. It's a crime I wouldn't have minded being the victim of.

[Brickbat]

31. With the teacher of your choice and with your consent, of course.

And even then, underage is still a crime. The nudging and winking in these kinds of threads drives me up the wall.

[Kaleva]

32. There is a double standard and I admit to being part and parcel to it.

[LanternWaste]

38. Once a problem is recognized...

Once a problem is recognized, the opportunity to solve that problem becomes available. Otherwise, simply maintaining or even justifying the problem reduces and minimizes the individual at fault.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

58. it's a crime because some people freak out about it

I sorta think the ones who freak out are the ones with the problem. Perhaps they are mad because they keep themselves from opportunities like that so they get mad at others who don't. And, of course, parents don't want to think of their children having sex (even when they are in the twenties) any more than kids want to think about their parents having sex.

[BeHereNow]

60. Obviously, you have no children of your own.

And certainly none that have been the victims of a pedophile.
Carry on.

BHN

[hfojvt]

67. I have no children, but I was a 14 year old male once

and you never were.

So I think I know what I am talking about more than you do, no matter how much you may want to insult me.

[seabeyond]

71. and i thought i was all that at 12. now i see my kids... at 12, and i know i wasnt all that

maybe that is the difference between being adult and parent, recognizing that how we viewed things as kids were skewed, through lack of experience and knowledge and maturity.

[hfojvt]

75. heck I can look at myself at 25 and think me a fool

but that doesn't change certain things. Ice cream and orgasms are still pretty good.

[seabeyond]

80. and you are totally missing or ignoring the point. nt

[Toasterlad]

101. And You Will Never Understand What It's Like To Be a Boy

[seabeyond]

152. nor do you understand, obviously, that a 14 yr old girl feels exactly like the 14 yr old boy that i

will never understand.

when these female kids.... kids, .... are fuckin adult males, do you think they arent saying exactly the same thing as the 14 yr old boy. they are saying just what he is saying.

what you dont understand, is you want to make the boy beyond what the girl is.... and really, it is horiniess, be it girl or boy

that is not the point

the point is the fuckin ADULT. and assuming you are an adult, i gotta say, not seeing that YOU as an ADULT understand. hopefully it wont be a never understand kinda thing

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

164. of course girls get fuckin horney, as MUCH as guys. are you for real. girls have been wanting

teachers forever.

conditioning. we are conditioned to believe the sweet little girl isnt as horney as the boy

she isnt emotionally prepared to handle adult where as a boy is, though he is less emotionally mature than a girl

you opposed to a old man fuckin a girl, you are nothing but a hypocrite if you cannot see the same for a boy

not a tough one

you are saying, i dont know boys, ergo understand their horniness. yet... telling me you know what being a girl is about. what shit. dont tell me what it is to be a girl

[Toasterlad]

173. You Are Correct; I Don't Know What It's Like To Be a Girl

However, science tells me that the hormones that are released in a boy during puberty are what drive his sexual longing, and that different hormones are released in girls, which do not create as strong a drive.

Your beef isn't with me, it's with science.

[seabeyond]

176. the girl has three different hormones kickin in.... and yes

she too is horney. do we have a testameter to see who is horniest? do we have a way of taking out the centuries of conditioning our girls and boys to say thumbs up to boys, being fucked by an older woman, and girls thumbs down if you ever become horney, and truly measure who is horniest?

or is it safe to say

boys are horney
girls are horney

ergo

what is good for the boy, is good for the girl

[Toasterlad]

180. If You Don't Believe That Males Are Generally Hornier Than Females, You Are To Silly To Argue With.

[seabeyond]

184. and you are being purposely obtuse to take the amount of gender horniness

to the extent that you are.

i understand why. it is your identification as male. when a man identifies all of who he is in his horiness, he has got to have it above and beyond the female. he has got to put the female so much less, so he can live in the illusion that she cannot be having the same kind of thought and feeling that he has. so he can, under an illusion, feel a security that isnt there

[dustbunnie]

211. It's not so much that males are generally hornier than females.

Testosterone does make a huge impact, but at that age, girls' hormones are in overdrive too, and would knock over lamps if it were physically possible as well. It's just that girls are seen as much more vulnerable because they are being penetrated first of all, and so that implies a different experience than the penetrator. Boys are expected to be the aggressor, girls are taught early to watch themselves, that violence can be anywhere, and who better to mete out violence than an older man. Boys don't have to deal with any of that, and so there's not as much guilt/pressure/stigma to f*ck them up. But some do suffer. So it isn't really about the hormones.

But other than that, mostly what you've said is true. Many teens would love to enter into sexual relationships with older men who have a car, and money, and it's so rad different. Some girls, like that blonde character in American Beauty even have the upper hand with drooling mush balls. Not all teens are traumatized by it, some smirk about it years later. But it's still wrong because parents want their kids to concentrate on school work, not have wild sex with teachers. There is so much room for preferential treatment/punishment/unfairness to other students, and also for psychological arm-twisting, that it's untenable. The laws are in place for a good reason.

I know you said all this, but am just rewording it from a female perspective.

[Toasterlad]

181. Dupe

[Maru Kitteh]

217. You reproach Seabeyond for not experiencing maleness

But yet, as a gay male you have no experience with either being female or the earnest pursuit of a female.


You say science backs you up but the irrefutable truth is, the science of sex, like all other areas of science, has had an extremely pronounced male bias that is only recently been intruded upon.

However; bias taken entirely aside, if adolescent females are horny enough to fantasize about doing their cute teachers or other adults (they are) then how exactly is that different from a male child horny enough to fantasize about doing their cute teacher or other adult? (clue: It's not)

Given that both female and male children are capable of desiring and attempting to act upon sexual fantasies involving sex with adults, on what possible basis could one assert that the male child is less exploited than the female child?

[LanternWaste]

174. what is the precise cut-off age...?

science tells me that, generally, 14 year old girls don't get anywhere NEAR as horny."
You can of course, post valid, peer-reviwed links to that assertion, yes?

Additionally, you appeared to limit your moral allowance to teenagers... why not younger? Eleven year old? Ten year old? Nine year old? Indeed, what is the precise cut-off age (if any), and on what is that based? If not younger than teens, what is the precise and relevant moral difference?

[Toasterlad]

199. Yes I Can Post a Link To That Assertion

Chew on this:

http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

To answer your other question, I'd say puberty is the age cut off. Given that that's the time that nature has decided that people are old enough to have sex, I'd say that's good enough for me.

[LanternWaste]

203. "Good enough for me" is hardly a precise or relevant answer.

"Good enough for me" is hardly a precise or relevant answer. A six year old is mature enough to drink, yes? Then we should allow them to purchase liquor?

As much as I respect you, you seem to be doing little more than circular reasoning... :shrug:

[Toasterlad]

207. And You Seem To Be Doing Little More Than Being Willfully Obtuse.

I can entertain myself far better by watching Lost. Have a swell night.

[seabeyond]

204. ah. girls going into puberty at ten. so fuckin a ten yr old is a good age for 30, 40, 50 yr old

man?

hm

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

209. puberty is the age cut off. Given that that's the time that nature has decided

where did i misunderstand. you say puberty. that is good enough for you. girls going thru puberty at ten. ten is a good fuck?

[Toasterlad]

215. Find Me a Post ANYWHERE Where I Said Adult Males Should Fuck Teenage Girls

[seabeyond]

219. nowhere. not ok for girls to do it only boys per you. BUT i ignored that obvious sexism and am

addressing your post on puberty

you think ok for boy to fuck an old lady. that is what this whole thread is about, right? it is his fantasy, so good on him. ergo... girls starting puberty at ten, it MUST be ok (unless you think only boys should get it and you do)to be fuckin old men.

simple logic following your post (except, girls dont get it, only guy, per you. which isnt logicical)

i just cannot see adovocating 10 yr old girls fucking around

[blueamy66]

177. Hey, I felt that way as a girl.

I had a huge crush on a teacher and would have slept with him if I could. :-)

[seabeyond]

179. hell yes you did. as i am sure every girl did, but hey..... guys get it, girls don't.

seems to be what the poster is saying.

who do you think these horney teenage boys are playing with

conditioning, but lets ignore that....

[blueamy66]

202. I don't know who these horny boys are playing with...

and I don't understand your post.

I would have eagerly slept with my teacher, kept my mouth shut, and dreamt about it for the rest of my life.

But, alas, it never happened.

[seabeyond]

205. all the horney boys these posters are talking about are playing with all the horney girls

that are dreamin about that teacher.

the poster is talking about only boys being horney, ergo, sex with adult women ok. girls not horney like boys, they dont want sex with adult males....

it is bullshit

the boys play with the girls...

as it should be

[LanternWaste]

212. little more than justifying (and thus maintaining) a cultural double standard.

What it seems the poster was doing initially was little more than justifying (and thus maintaining) a cultural double standard.

It then seemed he further qualified his position by implying that once a person is old enough to feel the desires of a biological urge, then the concomitant should be we are fully justified to engage in that action as long as we are physically able. But it does seem to be a rather thoughtless position if consistently applied-- a nine year old drinking liquor, a ten year old enlisting, an eight year old working on the factory floor.

I'm going to presume he (the poster in question) is somewhat young, and cut him some slack due to that-- when we're young it's tough to realize the long-term consequences of many decisions we make as we have neither the breadth of experience nor the depth of wisdom to base our decisions on. When we're young, we get angry and frustrated when people don't agree with us and perceive the disagreement as a personal insult or slight.

And most of all, it's difficult for youth to understand that in almost everything we do, that in almost convention we adhere to, the difference in degrees is the relevant and critical difference.

(I knew I'd stumble upon you in this thread, SeaBee-- hope you and yours are well! :hi: )

[seabeyond]

220. see.... hitting head on wall...

yes, yes. i forget the young adult thing. especially the young adult that didnt get thru the rebellous teenage thing. they do the rebeling as a young adult then hopefully go into adulthood. then again, i see many on the board that doesnt get beyong that either and end up being immature as adults.

i prefer and always have preferred adulthood. i like being an adult. to me, it is tons more fun.

we are off to san francisco friday. taking our time driving thru out the west. up to yellowstone, across to ocean and down. then south on the way home. california. i miss.

[nonconformist]

85. I have a 14 year old boy.

Yep, BOY. He's a CHILD.

[Toasterlad]

102. Not Too Long Ago, the Age of Consent In Delaware Was 14

Your 14 year old may be a child, but I can guarantee you he still knows how to beat his meat, and he still wants to have sex with a real live person.

[nonconformist]

142. I'm sure he does. But if an adult teacher was that live person, it's wrong.

Many age of consent laws include caveats for age differences. Meaning, if the age of consent is 16 and the adult is 18 it is different than when the adult is 35.

[Toasterlad]

145. Illegal, Certainly. Wrong? I Believe That Depends On the Individual Circumstances.

What is the physical difference to a 14 year old boy between having sex with a 15 year old girl and 35 year old woman?

What is the PSYCHOLOGICAL difference (to the boy)?

I think the big problem that people have with teenagers having sex with older people is the emotional baggage it carries. And there simply isn't as much emotional baggage in sex for boys as there is for girls.

[nonconformist]

156. Oh give me a break.

For one, a teacher is in a position of authority.

Two, you can't generalize that "all boys" feel one way and "all girls" feel another. Some boys might be as psychologically damaged by having an adult authority figure seduce them when they're young teens as you would assume a girl would. Some girls might not be as "damaged" by that scenario as you would think, or rather for the reasons you may think. I think you play into the common misconception that for females, sex is love and for males, sex is sex. It's just simply not that black and white.

You're a man, you've been a boy... I get it. But I don't think you can really possibly get it unless you had sex with an authority figure in their 30s when you were 14. Otherwise, you don't know WHAT kind of feelings and emotions surround such an act and any lasting damage it could have.

Boys and men are not primitive beings. They have feelings and can be emotionally scarred. Not only do I doubt that you would be defending this if it were an adult male teacher and a girl, but I don't think you would feel the same if it were an adult male teacher and a boy. That's because this scenario is a fantasy for many teenage boys.

[Toasterlad]

170. Generalizing Is Exactly What the Law Does.

That's all age of consent laws are: a generalization of when it's appropriate for people to begin engaging in sex.

You are correct: some boys MIGHT be psychologically damaged by an affair with an adult woman, and some girls might be totally mature enough to handle sex with an older man. That's why I usually qualify my statements with "generally" or "usually". Because, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that "for females, sex is love and for males, sex is sex", GENERALLY, girls place a greater emotional emphasis on sex than boys do. Of course boys have emotions and can be hurt. But boys are, again, GENERALLY less likely to be emotionally hurt by sex than girls. This isn't a question of equality, or a measure of who's "better". This is simple biology, mixed with societal pressures and mores. It's foolish to pretend there's no difference between boys and girls sexually. There's a great DEAL of difference.

And no, I never had sex with an adult woman when I was 14 (I can't THINK of a less likely scenario, actually). So I can't speak with any specific authority about just how a heterosexual boy would react to the situation. But, as we've discussed, every situation, every individual, is unique...so even if I HAD had sex with an adult woman, I couldn't speak for all teenage boys. I can only tell you that, at 14 (and 13 and 15 and 16 and 17 and 18) I was unbearably horny. Translating that to how a heterosexual boy - unburdened with any societal stigma of the evils of homosexuality - must feel, and I can only imagine that if the opportunity to have sex presented itself, he would - depending on how able he was to overcome his societally ingrained fear - take that opportunity in a heartbeat.

And yes, I would NOT be defending it were it an adult male with a teenage girl, or an adult male with a teenage boy (although I'd be less inclined to assume coercion in that case). Again, girls and boys are different, and they handle sex differently. Even leaving aside biological considerations of hormones, there is tremendous societal pressure for boys and girls to perceive sex in specific ways. Boys are taught that having sex is a positive thing which should be attempted as often as possible, while girls are taught that sex will rob them of their value somehow, that they would be wrong to engage in it except under specific conditions (i.e. marriage). It is only natural for girls to be more vulnerable to the emotional damage that sex can carry, and for boys to be less touched by it. Again, this isn't an equality issue - it's just the way things are. And yes, the older woman/younger man scenario is a fantasy for many teenage boys (albeit, not for me). It's a fantasy because boys want to have sex, and they often fantasize about women who'd be willing to have sex with them...perhaps mature women who, presumably, have already had sex at some point. That's not BAD. That's normal. What, then, is bad (from the boy's perspective) of the fantasy coming true? It's what he wants. It's what his body is telling him he needs.

Most of the "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!" types on this thread are focusing on the fact that this woman was his TEACHER, that she was in a POWER position. But I think you'd agree that ANY adult would - again, generally - be in a power position when it comes to sex with a teenager. But ANY sexual relationship has its share of power plays; it's rare to find a truly equal sexual pairing. There is always one more dominant and one more submissive (even slightly) in nearly any sexual scenario (and the woman is not always the submissive). And no, I'm not talking about whips and chains, I'm talking about the initiator, the aggressor. This is true for all sexual couplings: why should it be a point of contention for teenage boys to not be the aggressor in a sexual situation?

No, adult women should not be having sex with teenage boys. Because it's ILLEGAL. And teacher should not be having sex with their students, because it shows poor judgment, and teachers should have GOOD judgment. But I don't find it morally reprehensible for women to have sex with teenagers, and I think it's silly to pretend that, when it comes to boys and girls having sex with adults, the same strictures should apply.

There's a reason that the majority of the women on this thread are bashing the teacher, and the majority of men on the thread are not.

[LanternWaste]

171. Many of the fantasies I had as a 14

Many of the fantasies I had as a 14 year old would not only haunt me psychologically had they come to fruition, but most likely would have harmed me physically too. I imagine that's one of many reasons we do not allow a 14 year old to do any and every thing they want without parental consent.

[Shell Beau]

62. Would you feel the same way if this was a 14 year old girl and

a grown male teacher?

[hfojvt]

64. being male, I can only speak for how I felt when I was 14

and there's the typical double standard brother feel towards their sisters - "I can, but you shouldn't"

[Toasterlad]

104. Yes, Let's Pretend That Boys & Girls Are Exactly the Same, And That Society Treats Them That Way.

Everyone knows that 14 year old girls are raging with sexual desire and go through life CONSTANTLY sexually frustrated.

:eyes:

[leftstreet]

130. This isn't about sex, it's about power

14 yr old boys and their sexual desires have nothing to do with this

[Toasterlad]

136. Really? I Guarantee You That, For the Boy, It's All About the Sex

And isn't it the BOY we're supposed to be concerned with?

[leftstreet]

138. That's the boy's problem. The TEACHER'S problem is abuse of authority

[Toasterlad]

140. What I'm Saying Is, The Boy Doesn't HAVE a Problem.

The teacher certainly does, because what she did was illegal. But if the teacher didn't coerce the boy, he should have suffered no lasting damage, unless the people around him make him feel ashamed for what he did.

[leftstreet]

143. Wait....you suggested his raging hormones were a problem for him

:shrug:

The boy cannot CONSENT in a relationship where a power imbalance exists.

He can solve his hormone 'problem' with his hand.

His teacher has a problem with sexual assault.


This isn't that difficult.

[Toasterlad]

146. I Certainly Never Suggested His Raging Hormones Were a Problem

Raging hormones are a healthy biproduct of puberty in teenage boys. And I can assure you that the boy can ABSOLUTELY consent to the pleasurable experience of sex, which is all he's thinking about every waking hour.

The only way this was a "power imbalance" was if she demanded he fuck her in order to get an A. You keep talking about this like the boy was an intern at a law firm and the woman was his direct supervisor. This isn't sexual harrassment. What the woman did was illegal, certainly. And legally, yes, she assaulted the boy. But morally, she's only guilty of bad judgment. And the boy is guilty of nothing.

[leftstreet]

148. "And legally, yes, she assaulted the boy." Thank you. n/t

[Toasterlad]

150. If You Choose To Take That As a Victory, Good For You.

You're welcome.

[leftstreet]

153. Well, your case was weak

You ask that we believe this boy is so fixated on his sexuality he will blindly and happily bed a basket of turnips. If what you suggest is true, then the authority figure (teacher) has an even greater responsibilty...to not assault him.

Perhaps that's one reason consent laws are structured the way they are?

[Toasterlad]

178. I Certainly Never Suggested a Boy Would Fuck Turnips.

A melon is MUCH more likely.

What this boils down to is whether or not you believe that what the teacher did was wrong. Legally, it is...I'm not arguing that. But what NONE of you have managed to explain is exactly what harm is being done to the boy? How is he being harmed? Is he being harmed physically? Emotionally?

You can talk all you want about how it's wrong for adults to have sex with teenagers. Fine...then tell me what, EXACTLY, is wrong about a grown woman having sex with a teenage boy?

[leftstreet]

189. What if the turnips consented?

:beer:

[Toasterlad]

190. Then No Harm, No Foul.

[Ms. Toad]

163. Actually - no, at least not that specific boy.

The essence of criminal law is that crimes are committed against the state. The 14 year old is merely a witness to the crime against the state.

The boy may have a civil case, assuming he (specifically) finds himself to be injured, but from a criminal perspective it isn't about that particular boy.

[Toasterlad]

185. I'm Not Talking About a Criminal Perspective

I'm talking about what, exactly, the boy feels about the affair. And while I certainly cannot speak for him, I doubt that he feels like a victim.

I'm sure the state will take great delight in throwing this monstrous predator behind bears. I doubt that's what the boy would wish.

[Ms. Toad]

192. Then he is free to choose not to sue civilly

but what does, and should, matter to us as a society is not the wet dream of a single 14 year old boy - but protecting 14 year old boys (and girls) who do not have the ability to say "no" to those with authority over them from abuse by those individuals, including abuse by coercing the "victim" to claim the relationship was consensual. The most certain means of preventing the abuser from coercing a claim that the relationship was consensual is to make consent irrelevant by making the act a crime based on the age and power relationship of the participants.

Even though it seems unimaginable to you, assume that this 14 year old boy was NOT a willing participant. The comments in this thread demonstrate that there is a fairly wide perception that this is every 14 year old boy's wet dream - right? So how much courage would he have to muster to reveal the truth that he really was forced into the relationship. How much pressure would she really have to exert to get him to say it was consensual when it was not (Come on, Johnny, just say you're really in love with me...after all, what would people think if you said you had to be forced into the sack with me? I mean, look at me??? What 14 year old wouldn't fantasize about having sex with me? Not interested in girls, Johnny? You don't really want people to think that, do you Johnny?) Even without a nudge from her, I can't imagine many 14 year old boys who wouldn't be terrified of being accused of being gay if they (truthfully) said the relationship wasn't consensual.

That is the reason for the blanket prohibition, and it is a good reason. Protection from abuse, and protection from being coerced by the abuser (or societal mores) into claiming the relationship was consensual when it was not.

And that is the answer to the question to which I originally responded - shouldn't we care about the feelings of that 14 year old boy - "No." At least with respect to relationships with vastly unequal power (parent/child, teacher/student), the potential of harm for children - generally - and their inability to defend themselves from not only the abuse, but the potential of being later coerced to claim the relationship was consensual, outweighs the wet dreams of that single 14 year old boy (assuming that he even had such wet dreams - nothing I have seen indicates that he has made such a claim).

[Toasterlad]

193. It Does Not Seem Unimaginable At ALL To Me To Believe a Boy Could Be An Unwilling Particpant.

Furthermore, I will grant you that the law cannot make distinctions between cases of teenage sex. I have never disputed the illegality of what the teacher did, and I understand that, in order to protect ALL teenagers, the law must be applied equally to all instances.

What I'm saying is that our society has an extremely immature view of sex, and that view contributes heavily to the need for these laws. I don't know the exact circumstances surrounding this particular case, but I find it likely, from what I've heard, that this boy was NOT unwilling, and that he was not harmed as a result of this affair. It's unfortunate he and the his lover must suffer because of other people's notion of sexual propriety, and, of course, because of those adults willing to take advantage of children. The woman brought it on herself, but I still don't know if she did anything morally wrong.

[seabeyond]

194. i suppose the sexually mature are the old men, jumping up and down, clapping hands yelling boobie

boobie boobie.... see boobie, over there a BOOBIE????

or could it be all those sexually mature films for the adolescent boys.... she too hot for the geek.... movies?

or would that sexual maturity be ????

watchin the girls go by and sayin, i could hit that, oh, that one, i could hit. there is another i could hit.

is THAT the sexual maturity we are being lectured on?

[Toasterlad]

195. Where Are the All The Horny Girls Yelling "Dick! Dick! Over There, a Dick!"?

Since you're convinced that women are just as horny as men, perhaps you'd like to explain why, by your post, men are constantly talking about boobies and "hitting that", and women are not?

I won't bother to explain to you how you've yet again completely missed my point, because it would just give me another headache.

[seabeyond]

197. conditioning of allowable and not allowable. but hey... ignore that.

and today, the girls are coming right along with the boys in the dick dick... look at that dick. and it is just as immature as with the guys. at least in youth there is an excuse. adulthood is a whole other story.

so if all of a sudden the girls are catching up with the guys, how does that prove you biological insistence. ignoring all of culture from the beginning of time.

i mean seeing that you are not a girl, i guess you were not privy to the girl talk and exactly the same conversation, just not overt and obvious cause that was not female privilige, that is male privilige to objectify and dehumanize females.

[LanternWaste]

175. I would imagine it's the victims

"And isn't it the BOY we're supposed to be concerned with?"

I would imagine it's the victims, regardless of age or gender, that we should be concerned about.

[Toasterlad]

186. The Boy Is the Supposed Victim In This Case

Try and keep up.

[LanternWaste]

187. One does not deny the other...

One does not deny the other. Indeed, in this case, one is a sub-set of the other.

[lapislzi]

134. Thank you.

The issue here is an adult abusing her position of trust, authority, and power, exploiting the poor judgment of a horny kid.

Outside of a power relationship, I would not necessarily feel comfortable with it (not that it's any of my business), but I could understand it and look the other way. Likewise if 2 14-year-olds want to screw their brains out (safely), I say let 'em.

[Shell Beau]

41. Unless you have experienced it, you can't know what

kind of impact it would have on you.

[chrisa]

16. It's a cultural thing.

But it doesn't mean that the teacher isn't a scumbag. She deserves to go to jail for what she did, just like how a male teacher would deserve to go to jail.

It doesn't matter if the 13 year old wanted to "get with" the teacher. He was still taken advantage of. A 13 year old is nowhere near mature enough to be with adults.

[Mari333]

24. if an adult teacher had sex with one of my sons as children I would literally kill her

they are still children. your problem lies with societal brainwashing that boys at a certain age should be allowed to have sexual relations with older women i.e. prostitutes and that girls are victims.

children are children, this kid is a kid and a victim of an adult, period.

and I hope she is put away.

I dont know if you have a son or daughter, but they are children until they are able to make adult decisions and are of legal age.

[BeHereNow]

30. I'm sure 99% of the mothers on this planet feel the same Mari.

I know, I've been there.
And yes, I wanted to kill the bastard.

BHN

[hfojvt]

63. so am I

but how do the sons feel? Or are you gonna decide how they should feel because mommy knows best.

[seabeyond]

68. "because mommy knows best." yes. that is parenting. a girl at 14

wants that adult just as much as a teenage boy fantasizes and we say no, as a society, because we know through inexperience is vulnerability and have decided as a society that we wont allow our adults to prey on our youth.

it is no difference in gender.

if you see that it is ok for boy, not for girl, that is your own conditioning. if we say that regardless how a 14 yr old girl feels, it is wrong for a 30 yr old male to fuck her, then it applies to the guys too.

you are creating the gender difference that doesn't exist.

[hfojvt]

93. there are some physiological differences

the 14 year old girl can get pregnant, but the 14 year old boy cannot. An adult male might be too large for a young female and cause physical damage that way. A large adult female is not gonna damage a young male (unless she is on top and breaks his hip or something, but he could just as easily break that hip in a skateboarding accident and we don't prohibit skateboarding (although we should)).

I say it is okay for a boy because I have been a boy, one who has wanted to have sex for the last 35 years or so. The only reason I do not say it is okay for the girl too is because I cannot speak for her.

Either at 14 or at 48 I need you to make an argument. Show me why it's bad. Don't just say "you can't because mommy knows best". I remember I did not believe that at 14 and I certainly don't believe it now.

[seabeyond]

155. oh, bullshit. what is good for the boy is good for the girl. you are just full of perpetuating

the conditioning.

boys are different

well, no they aren't

boys physiologically different so ok

wrong.... girls can get it dont too

boys not responsible for preg.... BULLSHIT.

if you are going to say thumbs up to boys, at least dont be a fuckin sexist hypocrite and huge thumbs up for the girls too

then NO adult need be grown up and responsible and we can all prey on our youth. sounds .... swell

[BeHereNow]

70. The sex of a child makes no difference to a mother when it comes to

someone harming your child, indeed making your child the victim of a crime.
A 14 year old boy is protected under the law from pedophilia.
Which like it or not, is the reality of this situation.

Pedophilia was committed against this student and I would be quite certain
the parents are devastated by this betrayal of their son by a trusted
guardian.

BHN

[hfojvt]

98. that's not an argument

I say the harm that will be done to this teacher by this stupid law is far greater than any supposed harm she did to the kid. Show me the harm. Don't just say "he was harmed because it was illegal". Would you make the same argument about marijuana, because I think that may be illegal as well.

As for the P-word, you might as well pull out the S-word. Some people think that sodomy is just as disgusting and illegal and anathema as pedophilia. Are they correct, or do they have some kind of irrational hang-up?

Also, technically, it is ephebophilia for teenagers although it is often conflated with pedophilia by witch hunters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

[Zywiec]

107. Do you only have one child?

Who would raise your other children while mommy is serving time in jail for murder?

Maybe you should think this through just a little more before acting irrationally.

[blueamy66]

182. Literally?

Kill her? Really?

[LanternWaste]

28. Possibly....

"Am I deranged...?"

Possibly. But I would bet the problem is simply holding onto, justifying and maintaining a double standard.

[Brickbat]

29. You're right, it's a problem.

At least you recognize it. :eyes:

[Shell Beau]

40. That is unhealthy thinking.

Any child taken advantage of by any adult, male or female is wrong. Very wrong. It doesn't matter if they are cute, rich, God, it is WRONG.

[brendan120678]

43. And what if it is a male teacher and male student?

Or a female teacher and female student?

Really, I don't care what the gender of the teacher or student are -- teacher-student sexual relationships should always be illegal.
Even if the student is of the legal age of consent. There is still the authority figure impropriety associated with that.

[seabeyond]

45. men like to talk big, cause it is expected of them. i have two boys who just hit 6th grade

and to have a teacher go beyond the line with them, or any of their friends that i know would have a serious effect on them. in many ways

[WI_DEM]

66. Yes, I think you do.

[Bluebear]

77. 'That, and she is pretty good looking.' - yes, punishment should be based on good looks

You do indeed have a major malfunction.

[Lance_Boyle]

82. but in this arena it HAS been so decided

The phrase "too pretty for jail" is not made up - that was the get-out-of-jail-free card for one of these "hottie" pedophiles - Pamela something or other. And she was attractive. But also a pedophile. The legal system's double standard on this is appalling.

[EOTE]

97. I believe you're thinking of Debby Lafave.

But technically, neither she, nor the person mentioned in the OP are pedophiles considering they seem to be attracted to pubescent children rather than pre-pubescent, as pedophiles are.

[Warpy]

12. I worked with a nurse for years

before I realized her moods were getting a little odd and that I suspected she was likely a substance abuser. I wrote her up when she went for lunch and disappeared for two hours and the rest of us had to deal with one of her patients going sour. This had been one of the best people I'd ever worked with for many years.

I have no idea what makes good, solid people start doing stupid things that wreck their lives. I do know that most people can't be reduced to one horrible act, that they're a lot more complex than that.

I've certainly done my share of stupid things, although not as dramatically stupid as doing drugs on the job or screwing underage boys.

If she turned herself in because of unbearable guilt, then she's the person you always thought she was.

[BeHereNow]

17. That's just it- I would NEVER have thought her capable of such a thing.

Of all the people I worked with, she is the LAST person
I can imagine engaging in sex with a student.

BHN

[NNadir]

122. That is, I think, a compassionate response. We have to protect the victims of course,

but likewise we cannot deny that some issues are not addressed with glib and simplistic condemnation.

Thank you for being a human being.

[slackmaster]

22. What do you think her problem is?

Obviously there is something.

[BeHereNow]

26. I sincerely have no idea what creates a pedophile.

Like I said though, she is the LAST person I would
have thought capable of it.

Many lives are now ruined because of it.

BHN

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murielm99]

39. That teacher looks like she is about fourteen herself, which is

beside the point.

I was horrified by some of the comments about the article.

There seems to be so much more of this going on lately. I have taught middle school students and I know how vulnerable they can be. My children are grown now, but I can imagine how my husband and I would have reacted if something like this had occurred with our son or our girls.

Maybe all new teachers need an orientation that includes information about sexual abuse of minors. They all could use a more experienced teacher as a mentor. I sought out someone when I was a new teacher, since our district did not provide anyone. It is worth noting that this woman had taught for ten years. Something is just wrong, wrong, wrong!

[BeHereNow]

42. Our area is experiencing severe lay offs- no mentor teachers will be provided.

You are correct, that is how it SHOULD be, and used to be.
Unfortunately, more people are being let go due to the budget cuts.

This case may activate the local community though, as far as DEMANDING
that orientations, such as the one you suggest, be provided.

And you are correct, these kids are SO vunerable at this age.

BHN

[seabeyond]

44. with internet, our adult world of sexuality now play with children in sexuality....

the line has become so blurred for so many adults. and the kids... well hell, they are jsut exploring and experimenting and only beginning to figure things out. in a state of vulnerability.

our adults are failing

[BeHereNow]

50. I agree completely. The lines are blurred for many.

And the adults ARE failing.

I am completely disgusted by some of the remarks on this thread
that come from posters I assume are adults.
They are part of the problem.
Condoning, joking about a very serious problem.

BHN

[seabeyond]

51. yup. nt

[snooper2]

47. "There seems to be so much more of this going on lately"

It's just being brought out to the public..

this shit happened in the 40's, 50's, 60's as well...

[tonysam]

56. Hell, it wasn't that long ago nobody thought it was a big deal

teachers would date high school students, regardless of the age of the students. Occasionally some marriages would result.

Nowadays these same teachers would be thrown in prison and their licenses would be revoked for stuff like that.

[EFerrari]

54. Some or most of these female teachers sort of weirdly look, speak

and behave as if they are teenagers themselves. It's like some kind of dysmorphia or something.

[raccoon]

87. I disagree--I just think it's being reported more lately.

"There seems to be so much more of this going on lately."

[sharesunited]

46. You can get a learner's permit to drive a car at 15. Can we have learner's permits?

Or are we magically transformed into sexual adults in one day on the day of our age of legal consent?

Would this even be a story in France or Italy? I wonder.

[Lance_Boyle]

48. I wonder if this one will be 'too pretty for jail' too.

Seems like being an attractive female pedophile is nice work if you can get it.

[BeHereNow]

53. No way in hell, not in this town.

Burbank has a very family oriented culture, deeply rooted
in decades of families who have lived here since the 1950's.

BIG church community and a small town feel, even though we
are minutes from Hollywood, it is a different world over here.

If any thing, they are going to have to defend her from a public square
hanging. People around here are going to go ballistic and want
the most severe punishment available.

I think the entire thing is a complete tragedy for the community.

BHN

[TK421]

49. What the hell do these teachers see in their students? You would have to get inside

their heads, and damn that must be a pretty creepy place to be :scared:

[BeHereNow]

52. Studies have revealed that the pedophile sees nothing wrong with the relationship.

Apparently this one did though- she turned herself in.

BHN

[bamacrat]

65. Why could I not have went to this school.

She's hot. I guess I was born a decade too early.

[Shell Beau]

72. That is a sick reply.

Really. This woman was in a trusting position. I can only imagine the outrage if a man did this to a 14 year old girl. Comments like that wouldn't be said.

[BeHereNow]

73. This thread has an abundance of sick repies, as you may have noticed.

Don't take the bait.
That's my advice.

BHN

[seabeyond]

76. we keep being told that people recognize difference between fantasy and reality. seems many on du

do NOT recognize the difference between fantasy and reality.... and playing it out and repercussions of playing it out.

[Toasterlad]

105. This Thread Sure Has an Abundance of Women Who Don't Know the First Thing About 14 Year Old Boys.

THAT'S for sure.

[BeHereNow]

112. So you are condoning an adult having sex with a minor?

I know PLENTY about 14 year old boys.
I also know it is against the law for an adult
to have sex with one.

If the boy were gay, and the offender a priest,
would you be so quick to condone this situation?

I wonder and I doubt it.

BHN

[Toasterlad]

124. I'm Okay With a 14 Year Old Boy Having Consenual Sex With Whatever Woman He Wishes

Consensual sex implies that the 14 year old is not being pressured or coerced in any way.

I have a BIG problem with priests fondling (or more) ANY boy - gay or straight. Much more so than for any woman having sex with a boy. For two reasons:

1) Homosexuality still carries an extremely negative stigma in this country, and any boy, gay or straight, is bound to be ashamed of himself for engaging in an activity with a man who is UNDOUBTEDLY telling him that he must not let anyone know what he's done. This is simply not true of boys engaging in heterosexual sex: boys are LAUDED by their peers for having sex, and while an adult woman will no doubt swear the boy to secrecy, she will not genearally instill any shame in the boy for what he's done. It isn't SEX that fucks up boys and girls, it's our attitude ABOUT sex; it's the shame that girls and gay boys are made to feel about engaging in sex. Sex is a physical activity that rarely leaves any lasting physical damage. Any damage that results from consensual sex is purely mental, and entirely preventable.

2) Priest and other religious ilk are the biggest proponents of sex = sin in this fucking country. They take unnatural vows of celibacy, and pretend to be of a higher moral fiber than others, but are all too willing to abandon their moral standing if they can get a little action. Priests who prey on children (male or female, post or prepubescent) are twisted fucks who joined the priesthood in a futile attempt to escape whatever dark desires exist in them. They are incapable of having an honest, healthy sexual encounter with anyone.


Sex columnist Dan Savage likes to talk about the campfire rule: leaving less experienced sexual partners in better shape than you found them. If an adult is living by this rule, and if she/he is not coercing the child in any way, I have no problem with them having sex with a teenage. I do, however, think it's a dumb thing for them to do, given both the illegality of the act and our society's extremely immature view of sex.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

121. I was a 14 year old very bad boy and STILL think what she did was very wrong

[Toasterlad]

131. If She Coerced or Pressured You In Any Way, She WAS Wrong

However, if you were only made to feel that what happened was somehow shameful or wrong by other people, that's not her fault. What she did may have been illegal, but you are in control of how much it has to damage you.

[tonysam]

198. It doesn't matter if she coerced the kid or not. It's illegal. Do you understand that?

It is also grounds for her teaching license being revoked--permanently.

The fact she is a teacher magnifies the problem even more so than if she were not. Kids have the right to a safe learning environment, not have an environment populated with perverts.

And this woman is a pervert.

[Toasterlad]

200. As I've Said Many Times, I'm Aware It's Illegal.

Do you understand that something can be illegal and still not be wrong?

[bamacrat]

89. True, had this been the other way around it wouldn't have been said.

I am just speaking for the large amount of 14 year old boys who had a crush on a hot teacher and would have loved to get with her.

[seabeyond]

160. and every girl fantasizing about that hawt male coach. the difference? there is NOT

any difference

[Bluebear]

78. I was waiting for some asscarrot to post something like that. Congrats.

[bamacrat]

92. Thank you. If I could have done it with a hot teacher I would have.

I'm being honest.

[Bluebear]

96. Fine, go look at her picture and fantasize.

Honestly, the things people feel compelled to write.

[NoodleyAppendage]

119. Speak the truth! Some here can't handle the FACT that most boys going through puberty would be...

...attracted to a teacher like that.

J

[seabeyond]

162. EVERYONE not only handles but acknowledges that. where is your FACTS...

that is NOT the point. it is about the adult and his/her behavior. not what the child wants. be it girl or boy

[Shell Beau]

74. I don't know why, but I am surprised at the responses here

finding this ok. Boys will be boys, willing participant... It is sick. Would it be ok for a man, a priest, a counselor? No, it is never ok. What if this woman was butt ugly?

[BeHereNow]

79. Consider the motive behind such replies.

I've been here many years and seen it before.
Needless to say, my ignore list is extensive.
BHN

[Shell Beau]

83. Similar and nastier things were said during the whole Polanski issue.

Don't know why, but it always shocks me.

[BeHereNow]

88. Check your PM box. n/t

bhn

[Shell Beau]

90. Got it!

[BeHereNow]

95. Watch carefully... and you will see what I am talking about.

Stray dogs only hang around if you feed them.
I never feed them and they go away.
BHN

[snooper2]

81. I don't think it would matter if she was butt ugly...

some people still think it's fine for an underage boy to gain his "manhood" with an older woman..

This lady isn't any beauty queen btw

[Shell Beau]

84. I agree.

[dustbunnie]

157. She's not, but she looks fourteen herself.

Some of the people who prefer sex with teenagers never left that life-stage themselves.

[PVnRT]

91. I'm not

There's always a subset that thinks nothing of a female teacher fucking a male student. Granted, most of us have had that teacher sex fantasy at one point in our lives, but the fact remains that it's wrong.

[lapislzi]

110. It is NEVER OK

to abuse a position of power. Period.

I don't care how hot the teacher is, or how hot the student is, or how hot they might be for each other. It is never OK to abuse a position of power. It is a betrayal of trust of parents, administrators, colleagues, and students.

Why don't I have sex with my staff? Yeah, there's a cute guy on staff. He'd probably go for it. But that wouldn't make it right. I have a responsibility not to shit where I eat, or to abuse the trust of others.

Why are people having trouble wrapping their minds around this?

The 14-year-old is not the responsible party in this equation. The adult who should know better is.

[NoodleyAppendage]

118. If the woman was butt ugly, then she probably would find less willing participants / "victims"

Like it or not, the attraction of young males to ATTRACTIVE females is biologically driven and vice versa. Societal rules are not hardwired into our genome or basic drives. Just a fact.

J

[LanternWaste]

183. Yet how lucky we are that those rules exist

"Societal rules are not hardwired into our genome or basic drives."

Yet how lucky we are that those rules exist-- else every urge and drive would be acted on if possible, and people would simply urinate wherever and whenever that "basic drive" hit us... Just another fact.

[ReverendDeuce]

103. I wonder how many people calling this sick are women?

I'm legitimately curious...

It seems that the men responding to this post think it's just fine and the women are the ones that are outraged.

[BeHereNow]

108. Here's an even better question...

What if the offender had been a priest?
The family physician?

What would those posters say then?

The hypocrisy is mind numbing.
A crime was committed, by an adult, against a minor. Period.
Those who try to defend it are not worthy of
engaging in discussion with, IMO.

BHN

[Toasterlad]

111. "Those who try to defend it are not worthy of engaging in discussion with"

And yet, here you are, engaging in discussion.

[BeHereNow]

114. With you? Not so much.

As a matter of fact, I am seriously considering filing you
in my special cabinet.

BHN

[Toasterlad]

154. By All Means, Please Do So. But Given the Number Of Times You've Replied To Me...

...it will obviously be a difficult decision for you.

[BeHereNow]

158. Not difficult at all.

You have more than proven who and what you are
by now.

For that, we thank you.

BHN

[Toasterlad]

188. And Yet, Here You Are, Still Talking To Me

Glad I could keep you captivated.

[liquid diamond]

120. I'm noticing that too.

I remember being 14. If I had a shot at something like this teacher, I wouldn't mind being her "victim". There are worse things going on in the world.

[EFerrari]

151. Maybe they're just posters who know this is felony sexual assault.

[seabeyond]

159. how many of these male posters saying ok for boy, NOT ok for girl.

acting like the 14 yr old boy has the right, need, want, and his decision cause he is so mature in deciding things. and 14 yr old girl is what? forced? no, she is doing it with the same need want desire as the boy

but our men are setting the boys to be different when there isnt a difference. not ok for the girl to act on, but is for the boy. not ok for a 34 yr old man to fuck a 14 yr old girl, but ok for a 34 yr old woman to fuck a 14 yr old boy

not difference. if anything

the boy is less mature and less capable of handling

[Better Today]

109. So because she turned herself in knowing she was going to be arrested makes her guilty?

Wow, what have we all come to? Or have I missed the part where she's confessed?

[BeHereNow]

115. Read much before posting? n/t

bhn

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Last_Stand]

129. Miss Teacher Bangs A Boy...

Kyle: It's the kindergarten teacher, Ms. Stephenson.
Police Sergeant: The blonde?
Kyle: Yeah.
Policeman #1: Some young boy is having sex with Ms. Stephenson?
Kyle: Yes.
Policeman #1: Nice.
Police Sergeant: Nice.
Kyle: What? No, you don't understand...
Policeman #1: You sure they've had sex?
Kyle: Yeah!
Policeman #2: Has she performed oral sex on him?
Kyle: I think so.
Policeman #2: Nice.
Policeman #1: Nice!
Policeman #2: Nicccce.
Police Sergeant: So, wait. What's the crime?
Policeman #1: The crime is she isn't doing it with me.
(cops laugh)
Kyle: Hey! He's totally underage. She's taking advantage of him!
Police Sergeant: You're right. We're sorry. This is serious. We need to track this student down and
(pauses)
Police Sergeant: give him his "Luckiest Boy in America" medal right away.
(cops laugh heartily)

http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1010/

[leftstreet]

135. Ugh. That title sucks. It's not 'sex with,' it's sexual assualt

Not your fault, it's the way the media report this stuff

:hi:

[BeHereNow]

144. Agreed- it IS assault and it is amazing to read some of the justifications for it on this thread.

Un-fucking REAL!
Is this still DU?
BHN

[leftstreet]

147. hehe

These are always major popcorn threads

:popcorn:

[dustbunnie]

167. No it isn't assault and if you've ever known any woman who was raped you wouldn't throw --

that word around. It's incredible to compare the beating, anguish, fear, and physical trauma of a rape victim with illegal sex with a minor.

That's what she's charged with. Illegal sex with a minor. You know why she wasn't charged with assault. Because if he willingly went along with it and enjoyed the whole experience, he was not assaulted.

The hyperbole would be funny if you didn't do such a disservice to rape victims and victims of beatings by cheapening their horrible plight.

[Ed76638]

149. They say it's a crime

But when I was 14, I wish.......

[TK421]

165. I guess the whole problem I'm having with this situation is...he's 14

ummm....you're not even FULLY developed by that age ( shit, maybe these days you are, but... ) it goes back to what I asked in my last post..what do these teachers see in these students of theirs. There was some weird shit that went on in the catholic grade school I attended, but nobody said a word...I knew, and several others did but you just didn't talk about it ( except jokingly, among that group who knew ).

[Enrique]

168. i blame you

what did you do to this woman to make her do such a thing!

[Cleita]

169. How awful. It seems to be more common than previously believed.

I think that schools are going to have to put in safe guards so that no child is left alone with a teacher. I don't know how it will be done, with chaperones, security cameras or what, but it seems it needs to be done. I remember after the McMartin preschool accusations of child abuse and molestations, a friend of mine who worked in another preschool said that her school immediately instituted policies of open doors at all times including the lavatories. Children and teachers having to be in pairs, teachers not allowed to touch or hug children and many other things to insure there was no liability for even the sniff of impropriety.

[LanternWaste]

201. Odds are we each of us have a friend or a co-worker

Odds are we each of us have a friend or a co-worker who has engaged in behavior which is not only illegal, but also works against the social mores we collectively posses. Having glanced over reports of assault and molestation, and the numbers of the aggressors, and the number if victims, I am saddened to say that Vegas odds are that we each of us know or work with at least one. And that greatly saddens me, and distresses me.

Saddens and distresses me also that there are those who are not-so-subtly defending this behavior (we are none of us as clever as we'd like to think and you are raising the flags of your true color,s you know...); as though we are justified to allow ourselves to give into the base instincts and demons of our nature. Would those who imply this also tell us that it is legitimate to urinate or deficate when and where we want to? For these are also primal and biological urges-- indeed, more so than sex, as we all know there are people who have lived their lives as virgin, but we are hard pressed to say there are people who have never urinated nor defecated in their lives.

Also, I see the same, tired refrain of this being every young boy's fantasy; "when I was 14 and presented with this opportunity, I'd have hit it." I do recall many fantasies I'd had when I was that age too-- both sexual and non-sexual; and if I am honest with myself, I am forced to admit that had those fantasies come to fruition, I most certainly would have been damaged-- both psychologically and physically damaged-- but maybe you're simply young and don't have the breadth of knowledge based on experience yet.

I imagine that were you also honest with yourself (not with me, or with us-- that would exceed my expectations), you would also be forced to admit the same. This is, I believe part and parcel of the greater reason why we do not allow a 14 year old to make any and all decision they want to-- they simply have little emotional grasp of the far greater consequences that may arise out of one evening (or in the case of a 14 year old boy, five minutes) of one-dimensional temporal pleasures.

Additionally, the justification that "14 year old girls were being married off in the 'good old days'" seems to also arise periodically. Granted, while that may be true, it was happening at the same time that we were also burning witches at the stake, that we were defending slavery as a righteous act, that an unmarried, non-virgin could be stoned to death. Do you accept "it happened then, why not now" as a justification for these actions also, or is your own personal code of morality little more than a salad bar of convenience and pleasure, defending that which you like and condemning that which you do not?

And while I'm the first to admit that each of the above instances collectively happen in many parts of the world even today, would you really rather live in those cultures which adhere to those social mores? Rarely is one of the above seen without the others as a necessary social concomitant.




Although there is rarely anything new in these threads, and although those who are saddened by these instances are still saddened, and although those who defend these actions will yet defend them, I can only hope that we all keep our eyes open just a little more closely for the warning signs so that the number of these instances may be reduced. And although I am loathe to say it, I would also suggest we keep a close eye on those who defend and justify these actions-- regardless of whether we know them in our own worlds, or simply come across their ineffectual defenses on message boards such as DU.

If you have indeed read this far, I want to ask you something on a mere anecdotal level (and also thank you for bearing with the mental meanderings of a middle aged white guy). When I was twelve, I was sexually abused by a person in a position of authority. At the time, I had been convinced it was little more than a game-- "fun and games, is all, I promise, you'll like it." I acquiesced to this and of my own volition, gave in. Here's the relevant question-- was this abuse (and if you think not, I am reduced to little more than stating, "may your God have mercy on your poor, miserable soul...")?

If you do think it was abusive, we are compelled to ask what is the precise and relevant difference between my case and that of the OP? Both cases were separated in age by less than two years, and I had already started puberty; and though I did not welcome the advances, I did not deny them either. So if you see a difference, please-- tell us what that difference is with both precision and with relevance. Otherwise, your simply picking and choosing a convenient and day-to-day morality.

Animals don't know any better. You do...

[seabeyond]

208. thank you for your post. it is an excellent post

i have much to say to this post, but would only be reiterating what you stated.

of course it is abuse. and that is why the adult goes after the child. though the child will work it in their mind to not be a big deal, a child knows it is. and will hold that with them. and are taken advantage of. and dont have the experience, knowledge, courage, ability to say no, so many times, even though, they really want to say no.

appreciate you post.

[BeHereNow]

210. Are you addressing me?

Somehow, I think perhaps you meant to reply to someone else
on this thread. No?
Completely confused at this point.
BHN

[LanternWaste]

213. Good God, no! I'm certainly not directing this at you...

Good God, no! I'm not directing this at you.

I'm afraid it's my fault entirely that you may have thought so-- I was not clear at all. I would never throw a general accusation of such a degree as your OP at a specific person. I realize now that in addressing the OP, it could easily be construed as such due to the degree of vagueness I used

That was not my intent at all, and I deeply apologize for writing in such a vague way as to allow a valid inference on your part that there may even be the smallest chance that I was accusing you of anything.

Your confusion is warranted, as is my sincere apology.

[NoodleyAppendage]

221. Hmm...let's see. Sermon-like tone, C.S. Lewis signature quote, and derision of moral relativism.

Making the statement that you would have been damaged by sexual activity by a superior is conjecture. Please point to empirical studies that have demonstrated that teenage boys are "psychologically" damaged by sex with an attractive teacher. Intuitively, it makes sense, but then again it could be that you are a victim of the very rigid social mores you seem to hold so dear. Lest you forget the ancient Greeks and Romans were well known to "teach" youth about sexuality directly with no apparent ill effect. I'm not endorsing or espousing NAMBLA-like philosophy or behavior, only pointing out that there might not be a scientific basic for the claims of "psychological" damage. And, if there is, then I suspect it is due to societal reactions to these behaviors rather than the behaviors themselves.

I know of a couple of friends in high school who had "relations" with our young and vivacious librarian. They are all well-adjusted family men with no criminal backgrounds and appear from their long-standing marriages to be free of sexual "damage" from the high school incidents. Therein lies the problem with the "psychological" damage argument. These sorts of behaviors occur probably with more frequency then we know, and we tend to only pay attention to those reports that confirm what society has deemed the appropriate response.

J

[LanternWaste]

222. Self delete

self delete

[tonysam]

225. The "14 year olds being married off" isn't a justification for anything; it's a statement of fact

Times have changed, of course. But it isn't acceptable at all for a teacher to engage in ANY inappropriate conduct with a student.

[kimi]

226. I'm so sorry for what happened to you

I don't hang out in this area of DU very often, this thread kind of reminds me why. I have 5 boys, and while I don't pretend to understand their psyches in every way - I'm a mom, not sure I want to, completely - they'll always be my kids. But I'm sorry when I hear or think of anyone being hurt, or thinking back to a past event that hurts. I was sexually assaulted as a child, I've carefully compartmentalized it, otherwise I don't believe I could emotionally handle it, and I don't let it cross my mind often - when it does, I think of it very analytically, like it happened to someone else. Not healthy, but there you go. I do hope you find, or have found, some peace, after your experience. I find your words helpful, and I agree. Past times do not equate to present. Almost everyone can be capable of almost anything, even if they don't seem to be. In the end, individuals are who they are, but the law defines society, and that's why it exists. JMHO.

[kestrel91316]

214. Wow. Who knew DU was such a nest of pedophiles. Some of the responses

here are just appalling, Annie.

[BeHereNow]

224. Makes you sort of queasy, eh?

Guess it comes with the "internets."
You never know who is at the keyboard, do you?

PS: Had Spider checked for the condition we discussed, not going
to mention it here considering some of the company...
All clear in that department.
Still grooming to excess, but somewhat better.
Gave him an dose of the Front-line, but still seeing
a lot of scratching. WTF?

He is still doing his thing on my comforter each night-
the thing you mentioned your fur friend doing on your sweater?
Not sure that any harm is done really.

VCA local, wanted 545.00 to run a panel on him.
What are they smoking?

BHN

[Jennicut]

216. I used to work at a group home for boys. I had a 13 year old boy try to have sex with me when I was

24. He had been sexually abused himself by his own mother. Anyone who thinks a teenage boy at 14 will enjoy it and not be effected by this is totally crazy. They start acting out in more dangerous behavior. Having sex with another teen is one thing, having sex with an adult who has major influence over you is quite another. I specifically worked with boys from 8 to 15 years old who were sexually abused. They were not okay.

[1awake]

223. For me the issue is

not a question of sex, but of position and power. If a person is old enough to drive and control a car where they want, their old enough to have sex with who they want. But positions of authority should be guarded and protected under law. I personally find this case disgusting not only because the youth was 14, but mainly because the teacher, who is being paid by and trusted by the children's parent's seems to have taken full advantage of her position, power and access. I see no difference between females and males with this issue.

(if this is confusing.. sorry im ill)

[KitSileya]

218. Having read thru many of the replies to this post

with disgust, I wonder if they'd dismiss this so easily if it had been a male teacher having sex with this 14-year old kid? They seem to think that being a 14-year boy you are ready to havwe a sexual relationship with an older woman simply because you are horny, without any thought to the emotional impact of such a relationship, or towards the power imbalance there is, regardless of whether the woman is a teacher or just a 'Mrs. Robinson'. So I wonder if they'd react the same way if we were talking about a Mr Robinson.

[Loudmxr]

227. HI! This is my Junior High School. Which I love.

First off this is child abuse. This is a CHILD!

There is nothing that gets me angrier than child/adult treatment argument that comes up on all sorts of levels. We recently had a cross casting performance of Shakespeare and some parents went ballistic about girls playing boys and boys playing girls. "How could they expose that sort of perversion to our children?"

But let a minor commit a semi serious or even not serious crime its "Lock them up in Adult prison and throw away the key!!"

Either they are children or they are not. Some are children and some are not.... please tell me the standards so we may all apply them or be quiet and leave it alone.

Now the funny:

The district, who I am well acquainted with, has said "We can't remember anything like this happening before." Well, Gabe my friend, you haven't been around long enough.

Ohhhh!! The stories I and my friends could tell about what went on in the 70's in the flats.(Burbank High schools are divided between the flats and the hills) It was such a topic of conversation I never had the thought that things like what happened down here could be happening at the schools in the hills.

Well....mercy me was I naive. I am just finding out about the school teacher who married one of his students, the teacher came home during school hours, found her in bed with another guy and shot her dead. Oral sex by the stairwells. Whooppeee Doooo! Couches in the classrooms and nude photos of students in the teacher's office.

Satyricon by the Studios. (I do love my alliteration):hi:

[krispos42]

228. My middle school spanish teacher got busted for this about 10 years after I attended

My mom saw it in the paper an called me about it.

She was short and curvy, like Salma Hyack in glasses.

Now that I reflect on this, she's exactly my type except for the whole statuatory-rape thing.