China Plans High-Speed Rail line to Europe

[brooklynite]

from Mass Transit Magazine:

London to Beijing in Two Days

CHINA - Railway passengers will be able to travel from King's Cross to Beijing in just two days on a journey that would be almost as fast as by airplane under ambitious new plans from the Chinese.

China is in negotiations to build a high-speed rail network to India and Europe with trains capable of running at more than 321 kph within the next 10 years. By using the Channel Tunnel, the network would eventually carry passengers from London to Beijing and then to Singapore, according to Wang Mengshu, a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and a senior consultant on China's domestic high-speed railways. A second project would carry trains through Russia to Germany and into the European railway system, and a third line would extend south to connect Vietnam, Thailand, Burma and Malaysia. Passengers could board a train in London and step off in Beijing, 8,160 kilometres away as the crow flies, in just two days. Flying time is about 10 hours. They could go on to Singapore, 10,863 kilometres away, within three days.

"We are aiming for the trains to run almost as fast as aeroplanes," said Mr Wang. "The best-case scenario is that the three networks will be completed in a decade."

...snip...

"We have also already carried out the prospecting and survey work for the European network, and central and eastern European countries are keen for us to start," Mr Wang said. "The northern network will be the third one to start, although China and Russia have already agreed on a high-speed line across Siberia.

I'm guessing they won't get gummed up with Public Hearings and Environmental Impact Statements...

[HeresyLives]

1. Fantastic stuff.

The world is changing soooo fast....!

[KittyWampus]

22. except the USA, we're sliding backwards.

[TheDebbieDee]

2. A long term construction project that will employ thousands

of people across two continents for several years. It will bring people from many different cultures together, getting to know each other and building positive relationships.

And in the end, they will get another means of transportation between the far East and Europe.

[marmar]

3. And here, we can't even get conventional Amtrak trains to arrive on schedule....

Sigh.

[xchrom]

10. It's so frustrating cause I LOVE Amtrak. Nt

[marmar]

13. Me too. I love taking the train......

...... Even though the Detroit-to-Chicago run takes 6 1/2 hours (for a 240-mile trip), and usually takes even longer than that because Amtrak doesn't own the rails and has to yield to passing freight trains.

[onehandle]

4. United States Plans High-Speed Rail line to the next state...

Well, mostly within states... And with less capacity than trains in Europe and Asia.

Did I mention that they are slower?

[HughBeaumont]

5. Meanwhile, the US funds more and more OCCUPATION!

And defunds everything else!

Keep that Empire rollin' . .. Raw HIIIIIDE!

:eyes: :eyes:

[BeFree]

36. well

....we are making the world safe for Chinese high speed rail, eh?

[dipsydoodle]

6. Whoo hoo

That would be really great especially given I can get to St Pancras in about 30 minutes.

Not sure why they said Kings Cross unless they meant the general area : the terminal is up the road at St Pancras Station one of our neo Gothic classics.

[Brickbat]

7. Easy to do when you don't care about labor standards, human rights, the environment or property

regulations. Good idea, but bad execution.

[HeresyLives]

8. Being built by Canada and Germany actually.

[Brickbat]

9. To Canadian and German standards in China?

Doubtful.

[HeresyLives]

11. Yes.

Wouldn't do much for the reputations of the companies if the trains didn't work, or fell apart.

[Brickbat]

12. So you're telling me the people laying track are being paid what track layers are paid in Germany?

That overtime, safety and workers comp rules from Canada or Germany will be met?

What, are they seriously bringing over German and Canadian workers to lay this track?

All of the property has gone through EIS reviews?

All the property for the ROW was claimed through lawful eminent domain or purchased from its owners with a fair price?

REALLY.

[HeresyLives]

14. I know the topic of China isn't popular on here,

but some common sense is in order.

High-speed rail has to be built to technical specifications, or it's not high-speed rail. In fact, it could be a wreck.

Tells you right in the story the tech comes from Siemens and Kawasaki...that would be Germany and Japan in this case.

China has been building railroads for many years, so they have the engineers etc to do so.

They built the highest railway in the world you know, with the first section opening in 1984.

In that case, the diesel locomotives used in one section were made by GE in Pennsylvania, passenger carriages were Chinese, and the BSP carriages came from Bombardier...which is Canadian.

[Brickbat]

15. I get the feeling we're speaking about different things.

I'm not talking about where the trains are made. I'm talking about the track and who lays it. While I don't think the people doing it will be making $.25 a day like in the crap factories that make many of our consumer goods, I don't believe that they are working under the same labor standards as people who lay track in Germany, Canada or even here. And I have a huge problem with that and cannot celebrate that kind of accomplishment.

Same goes for the environmental impact and property acquisition. A lot of people on the right and the left hold China up as a great example of "getting things done" without looking at the true cost. That's my concern.

[HeresyLives]

16. I just said that China has specialists of it's own.

Americans from GE make GE wages, the Canadians from Bombardier make Bombardier wages, and the people in China make Chinese wages.

Engineers make far more money than factory workers in all 3 countries. Costs are much lower there tho, so their wages probably go further than yours do.

You have eminent domain, in Canada we have expropriation...that's no different than in China.

But even if it was, it doesn't matter if you have a 'problem' with it, it's not your country. And other countries do things their own way.

Why would anything in some other country be done the same way as it is in the US?

[Brickbat]

18. You're getting closer.

But even if it was, it doesn't matter if you have a 'problem' with it, it's not your country. And other countries do things their own way.

It does matter, because people in this country whine about why we can't do that here. One reason is because our environmental, labor, safety and production standards are in general higher than in China. So the pressure becomes to either stick with our standards to do the same thing in a longer time frame, or to lower our standards to theirs and celebrate how awesome that would be. I fight against that option.

[HeresyLives]

19. Then obviously their way is better.

:rofl:

Don't worry, you could do it in the US. Environmental standards and wages etc aren't the problem.

Political will is.

[Withywindle]

17. And meanwhile, naysayers here say,

"Oh, we can't have long-distance rail here, it's not PRACTICAL. The US is too spread out!"

:eyes:

[FarCenter]

20. You can't have high-speed rail between Boston and Washington

It has proven impossible to dedicate rails to passenger traffic (so Acela doesn't wait for freights), to straighten out curves, to remove grade crossings, and to build high-speed capable roadbeds on the one route where high-speed rail would actually be economic in the United States.

The Acela runs only a little faster than the steam locomotives did.

[Withywindle]

21. Why is this route across all of Europe and Asia economical...

...whereas a route across North America isn't? It would be a much shorter distance. A route from Beijing to London will go through a LOT of empty space, emptier even than similar regions in the US. And yet, they expect people will use it. I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

If you build it, they will come. If it became possible to take a train from, say, New York to LA that takes only a few hours longer than flying, that was much faster than driving? You bet I would! Flying is becoming increasingly unwieldy and impractical to be the only source of long-distance travel--congestion, runway incursions, increasing fuel costs, added fees. I'm not saying flying will ever go away or that it should, but more choices are better for everyone.

[FarCenter]

26. They can probably carry light freight even better than passengers

"Mr Wang said Beijing was already in negotiations with 17 countries over the rail lines, which would also allow China to transport raw materials more efficiently."

Load the trains up with laptop computers and flat screen television sets.

There are a lot of things that go air freight now that could go via high speed rail. Other than rail, the Europe - China trade has to go by air freight or by ship through the Indian Ocean / Suez Canal / Mediterranean route or the Panama Canal route.

Plus, the right of way can also be a utility corridor for fiber optic cables, and routing telecom traffic through the Indian Ocean cables or through the Atlantic and Pacific cables via the US can be avoided.

[Cali_Democrat]

23. No kidding

How far is it from London to Beijing? I'd say that's pretty spread out.

[Withywindle]

24. Google says 5,071 miles (as the crow flies, I'm guessing?)

New York to LA: 2,778 miles. (driving distance)

[Posteritatis]

27. Remember, the US is the only place in the entire world where geography makes it impractical!

At least that's what I keep hearing here.

[SoCalDem]

25. And they bypass the bottleneck of airport nonsense too

while offering a luxurious and fun way to get from point A to point B..

[Withywindle]

30. Yes, and be a LOT more comfortable.

If the trains are anything like the Amtraks here, the seats are MUCH bigger and more comfortable. Too tall or too fat for airlines? Not so bad on the trains - and they're far enough apart that little kids' short legs can't reach the back of your seat to kick it. You can recline your seat and not have your head in someone else's lap. You can get up and walk around pretty much any time you want to, go to the dining car or the club car, pay a little extra and get a sleeper car.

[DaveinJapan]

31. Actually, high speed trains are quite a bit more cramped than you are imagining here...

Nothing like the big Amtrak coaches, and I think "paying a little extra and getting a sleeper car" is not realistic either.

The faster they go, the sleeker (and thus more cramped) they need to be. Think Concorde, not Amtrak.

[HeresyLives]

32. Roomy, comfortable, smooth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8406910.stm

[Withywindle]

33. OK, I guess that's true. I've never been on a high-speed one.

But even the New York subway has more comfortable seating than your average Greyhound-bus-with-wings....actually, come to think of it, so do actual Greyhound busses. And I'm only 5'6" and 125 lbs, I can't imagine how larger people handle it. (My dad is 6'4"; he won't fly at all.)

I imagine they would still have the freedom of movement, though. That's important on long hauls.

[HeresyLives]

34. Go to China...try it.

Or Japan, or France or Argentina...or any of the other places that have high-speed trains.

Which is anywhere other than North America

[Withywindle]

39. I've been to Brazil and SE Asia in the past decade.

Didn't take any trains in the former, and the ones I took in the latter were distinctly old-school. Believe me, I'd love to. And if I could sit on a plane for the Newark/Kuala Lumpur haul (one stop: Stockholm) while hating flying as much as I do, I bet the train can only be an improvement.

At the very least, I LOVE scenery. I LOVE to sit back and zone out and stare out the window for hours. I know it would go by fast, but I figure that's a six-of-one half-dozen-the-other with trying to study it from 35,000 feet.

[DaveinJapan]

44. A little better than coach, yes, but far from the near business class sized seat you get on Amtrak.

At least, that's my guess since I've not yet ridden the Chinese version. In Japan, they have plenty of luxury trains and even some semi-high speed ones (150mph or so) that are roomy but as you come to the truly high speed models they get smaller and smaller.

I found a YouTube link to a Chinese high speed train interior, interior shots begin around 1:15 in the video and it seems no different from Japanese trains of a similar type...better but not a whole lot better than coach class on an airliner. If they have first class cars as Japan does, it's probably somewhat more roomy with perhaps two seats on each side of the aisle as opposed to the three and two we see here (I don't think they have sleeper cars, either).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ln08EokDLY&feature=related

EDIT..having said all that though, I'd be more than willing to chose a train even if it took several hours longer than a flight, just to avoid the crap you have to go through these days with airports and the airlines. Two days though, I dunno. :p

[Withywindle]

45. Japan is relatively geographically small, so...

I've realized that I am perfectly fine on Amtrak for a one-night trip, but two is pushing it. I do use Amtrak for relatively short distances a lot. I live in Chicago and will gladly take it to Detroit or Milwaukee or St Louis or Minneapolis ANY time - considering how much bullshit is involved with airports, the OVERALL destination-to-destination time isn't that much different, and I much prefer being taken right downtown rather than from one inconvenient suburb to another.

However, if this theoretical trip was only three nights or so, I think I could probably manage it - I mean, Beijing to London and you get to see everything along the way (however fast and blurrily)! AWESOME!

[SoCalDem]

47. and you can get REAL food:) n/t

[LanternWaste]

28. That would be a trip worth taking...

That would be a trip worth taking... sightseeing Europe and Asia from the comfort of a plushy seat, sunsets, sunrises, the plains of eastern Europe, the Caucasus Mountains, the tundra of the Asian plains. In three days and close up. Had I the opportunity, I'd jump on it (but then again, I'm not as clever as those who wouldn't)

[Withywindle]

29. I would LOVE to as well.

I've always wanted to take the route that goes from Beijing to Berlin. This would be even better.

Of course, at those speeds, the scenery would fly by pretty fast....

I really kind of enjoyed the flights I took a few years ago from Newark to Kuala Lumpur (with one stop in Stockholm). I normally hate sitting on planes for hours, but I was by a window and the plane had one of those video screens that shows you where you are at all times. We flew directly over Kabul!

Thing is, though...Russia is the Nebraska of long-distance air travel.

[OmahaBlueDog]

35. I suppose my question would be "why?"

I could get wanting to move freight at high speed to Europe, and to get raw materials at high speed out of Russia, but why passengers by rail? Flying is still faster, and with telecommunications technology improving every day, I'd imagine the demand for business travel will fall, not rise. There is far less physical infrastructure to deal with in air travel; this would have thousands of miles of track needing maintenance.

It's a cool concept, but I really don't see it.

[HeresyLives]

37. Faster, cheaper, filling a big demand.

[OmahaBlueDog]

38. How is 325 MPH rail faster than 600MPH plane?

Going from ...say Berlin to Frankfurt -- I get how that would be faster and cheaper. From Bejing to London? I still say the jumbo jet wins that battle on speed and price.

[HeresyLives]

40. Assuming you like crowded flying.

And not being able to walk around.

And have no problem with all the pre-flight bilge.

Sorry, major improvement.

[HeresyLives]

41. 400K an hour btw.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. "more than 321 kph" in the OP

ie 'more than 200 mph', from which I'm sure that's been converted.

No, hardly anyone would stay on this journey from western Europe to Beijing for 2 days. Even with the maximum delays suffered at airports, that's a whole day slower than by air, and that makes a real difference (you want somewhere to sleep properly, or you feel even shittier than sleeping on an airplane, because it becomes 2 nights of little sleep). What people would do is use sections of this. A good link between India and China could be very useful - but the route to take isn't obvious (there are alot of mountains in the way for the direct route; is the engineering challenge of that worth it, or would it be more economical to go via Thailand, Burma etc. - a longer route, with political implications, but flatter?)

This whole scheme is speculative at this point. What has actually happened so far, and what this guy is proposing (note this all comes from one member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering) is better explained in this article (rather than the earlier one, which was written for the British Daily Telegraph - hence the emphasis on London):

The plans include Southeast Asia, with a network to run south from Kunming through Vietnam, Thailand, and Malaysia on the way to Singapore and west across to Myanmar and India.

A western network would run from Urumqi through Central Asia, including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, possibly connecting through Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey through to Germany.

The third spur would leave Heilongjiang, cross Mongolia, Russia and head west across Siberia on the way to Europe. China and Russia have already agreed to build a high speed rail line across Siberia.

However, logistics problems still have to be worked out. Not all countries operate the same gauge rail as China’s high speed trains, and the cost would be enormous – high speed track is three times more expensive than conventional rail and all routes would require new track to be laid. In order to take part in the increased trade such routes would bring, some countries are prepared to offer trade incentives in exchange for financial backing on the high speed routes. Myanmar, for example, is apparently prepared to offer rich reserves of lithium, a metal with many industrial applications in computing.

http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2010/03/08/china-to-build-pan-asia-europe-17-country-rail-network-4328.html

Note that one 'connection' is just 'possible', through Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey through to Germany (and remember what's between Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, and Pakistan - Afghanistan) . A lot of political negotiation needed there, and it sounds like a really long term project. And if there are gauge problems, then the developed countries are very unlikely to go for any high speed line that isn't compatible with what they use. In a developed country, the main problem is obtaining the right of way for a new line, and who's going to go through that just for a foreign government to be the operator?

Also notice that this seems to be part of a general expansion of Chinese trade and influence - they're not necessarily saying this will be an efficient way of connecting countries, but if they can get trade deals as part of it (I'd say lithium is more important for batteries at the moment), it's worth it for them.

The deal with Russia about a high speed Siberian line sounds interesting, since that agreement has actually been made, rather than being just one of Wang's plans. Here's something on that:

On 13 October 2009 in Beijing, RZD President Vladimir Yakunin, Russian Transport Minister Igor Levitin, and Chinese Minister of Railways Liu Zhijun signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on organizing and developing high-speed and very high-speed rail links on the territory of the Russian Federation.

The purpose of the memorandum is to study and elaborate the issue of cooperation in reconstructing existing rail lines in order to improve speeds, and constructing high-speed and very high-speed routes. This document is aimed at broadening the Russian-Chinese partnership. In line with the memorandum, a joint working group of qualified specialists from both sides will be created by 1 December 2009.

http://www.uic.org/com/english/uic-e-news/156/article/russia-china-rzd-to-work-with

[OmahaBlueDog]

42. If it gets widely used, there will be pre-ride bilge to deal with as well

..and trains are cramped as well.

I can see it for freight.

[HeresyLives]

43. It IS widely used, and quite comfy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8406910.stm