We need a massive job creation effort and we get a truly piddling and virtually useless one

[eridani]

Tax credits are idiotic and useless. I got that confirmed in a thread last week where I specifically asked small business owners whether tax credits would motivate hiring.

http://www.alternet.org/story/145977/hightower%3A_why_obama_and_dems_seem_uncapable_of_taking_a_firm_stand_on_anything

Everything? Chuck, admit your impotence. At most, this bill might stimulate the creation of 250,000 new jobs -- a bit short of the 11 million that America needs just to get back to where were in 2007, much less the need to create an economic path to lead us into a bold future of new, sustainable, middle-class job creation.

In fact, the Democrats' response is even weaker than it appears. Rather than directly creating jobs that pay workers, the $15 billion is going into tax breaks for businesses. The convoluted hope is that the money will "encourage" the recipients to hire a few people who're suffering from long-term joblessness. This trickle-down approach is even more pathetic than trying to fight a house fire with a squirt gun, for it doesn't even put the squirt gun in the hands of the people caught in the fire.

What the Democrats have done is to pass a do-nothing Republican bill, a reality that was blurted out by Sen. Orrin Hatch, one of the five GOPsters to vote for it: "This is a conservative approach to help put our economy back on track through tax relief, not government spending."

What a fraud. And an insult. Remember when Wall Street bankers shouted "Fire!" two years ago? Both parties rushed to the rescue, not with "conservative" tax relief, but with trillions of public dollars that they put directly in the hands of the same Wall Street arsonists who started the fire.

We expect pious Republicans to consider millions of struggling American workers to be less worthy than a few greedheaded bankers, but not the Party of Roosevelt. Yet one Democratic leader said of this feeble bill, "Better something than nothing."

Maybe they're fooling themselves -- but not us, and certainly not the jobless. This bill is nothing. And if Democrats don't stiffen their spines, they'll be nothing, too.

[DrDan]

1. gotta agree - but what concerns me is why we are not seeing a truly robust job-creation effort

Is there confusion as to what that should be?
Is there a fear of more charges of uncontrolled spending?
Is there a secret hope that it will eventually work itself out?
Is there a more focussed effort to allow corporations to create jobs where they prefer - ie out-of-country?
Is there a strategy that will put job creation closer to the 2012 election?

[eridani]

3. Because Obama cares more about Orrin Hatch than about the long-term unemployed? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

5. because they want more unemployment to drive down wages, increase foreclosures,

& destroy small business.

[eridani]

2. Forgot the small business thread link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7832243

[KharmaTrain]

4. And What Jobs Were You Expecting?

Should the government hire everyone out of work and pay them? Or, as some have suggested, just give everyone $1 million and we'll all be rich, rich, rich. :rofl:

Now the government could hire 11 million, but the only ready jobs would be in the military...or maybe localized work projects, but the government can't just clap their hands and jobs show up. That's up to the same people who got us into this mess, unfortunately.

I'm a small business owner...and it wasn't the government that created the messes I'm seeing out there, it was a society stuck on greed. It still is. It's a corporate culture that still believes that we will consume all they throw at us and we'll find a way to afford it, even it it means digging deep into debt. It was this greed that led to the market collapse...the offshoring and downsizing and the ultimate bankruptcy of our society. And that's the real problem here...everyone is broke.

Will a job incentive bill help what I'm doing? No, but then the government has been a hamper not a help for decades now with their 'regulations' that help the rich and established. What will help is the lifiting of the credit crunch to make investment money possible for businesses to get off the ground or expand. That won't happen overnight, but it is the only way out of this mess. What the government can do is to reregulate the banks and level the playing field so the little guys can help create a new economy since the old one is shot and ain't coming back.

[liberal N proud]

6. Here is what I see

This happened with my brother. He thought he was going to retire from the Air Force and get hired as a private contractor doing the same thing he was doing before.

Well the program was cut just after he made the decision to retire. He didn't get that cushy government job that he saw others sitting in so who does he blame? Obama of course.

The program was cut while bu$h was still in office but Obama was in office when it went into effect, but no matter, blame the name in front of you but make sure you never blame yourself.

That is how I see these rants. They didn't get included so it is a terrible decision on whoever is in charge.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Yep, Where Is Mine...

I didn't want to get into the fact the bank bailout that so many think did so many bad things actually did save this country from economic meltdown. The money went to prop up banks that kept personal savings and securities from totally vanishing. We were thisclose to wiping out every retirement account and compound the mess even worse than it is now. But for those who don't have investments it means nothing...they didn't see a recovery. That was the easy part...that's what government could do to help the economy, and obviously not good enough.

There's a fundamental problem I'm seeing develop where we have two philosophies in action. There's the rushpublicans who think the government is totally inept and can't do a damn thing right (and whose fault is that???) vs. democrats who think the government can solve all problems. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. But, as you say, if you don't see it or benefit from it, then the government is a failure.

Cheers...

[eridani]

9. There were quite a few less expensive options that would have involved

--government controls and forcing useless shitstains like AIG and Goldman-Sachs to eat their losses.

[eridani]

8. Maybe you can't hire 11 million, but you could hire a least 1 million

Direct hiring is far more effective that tax credits. It has a multiplier effect because all the newly employed people have money to spend.

[dkf]

11. Isn't that called a census job?

Those should help. I'm not sure what other need there is for temporary federal work. Infrastructure is a lot more expensive than just labor costs so that won't get as much bang for the buck. So seriously what do these people do?

[eridani]

14. Google Civilian Conservation Corps n/t

[eridani]

16. OK, I googled it

OK, it would take a couple of years to get to a million, but this worked one HELL of a lot faster than tax credits.

http://unsilentgeneration.com/2010/01/27/2630/

The Roosevelt administration got the bill creating the CCC through Congress less than a month after his inauguration on March 4, 1933. Members of his own cabinet protested the idea was impossibly ambitious, but the president accepted no excuses–he wanted a quarter of a million young men put to work by summer. He then proceeded to manage the plan himself, delving into bureaucracy that ran the public lands–which then, as now, made a third of the nation–pulling in members of Congress, debating wage levels, making charts, writing up plans. When the mobilization still seemed too slow, he ordered in the army to help. “By April 7,” Alter writes, “only 34 days into the administration, the first corps members were enlisted. By July 1, less than four months after Roosevelt made his outlandish demand, he exceeded the quarter million goal. Nearly 275,000 young men were enrolled in 1,300 camps across the country, supporting their families and undertaking much-needed projects.”

[KharmaTrain]

12. Make Work Jobs Vs. Permanment Ones...

Yes, we could work for 1 million in rebuilding roads or other infrastructure projects and I'm all for that, but once the road is done, then what? Or for that matter, it seems to downplay how technical and specialized our society has been. Building a road in 2010 is a lot different than it was in 1935...creating jobs just to create jobs isn't as simple as it once was (unless it's in the military). Sure, you can have direct hiring to seek answers for the short term, but then what? That's where the tax credits can and do come in handy when it is teamed with easier credit for a business to get the capital to expand and hire...to create long term positions and, in theory, assure economic stability and prosperity.

Still...with 1 million hired, what's the solution for the other 10 million? Trust me, you won't hear about the jobs created, just the ones that who are out of work...a hungry stomache makes one a lot angrier than a full one.

[babylonsister]

15. AFLCIO: New Legislation Would Create 1 Million Jobs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x216550

[eridani]

17. Are you talking about a different bill? Tax credits don't do shit for firefighters

The first stimulus package had some aid for local and state governments, but there could have been more without the stupid tax cuts.

[babylonsister]

20. No, the AFLCIO is talking about the new jobs bill, same

as you were, I thought. And you mentioned the hiring of 1M people, so did they.

You just like to complain, I'm thinking.

And I'm thinking newly hired firefighters might benefit from work training programs mentioned...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x216420
Democrats set to unveil $100B jobs legislation

[eridani]

21. So this is in addition to the $15 billion bill passed? n/t

[babylonsister]

22. I honestly don't know; will have to read more about it. But it seems to

be a healthy start.

[dkf]

10. Yes. We need to level the playing field for small business.

It's too bad someone can't concentrate on a rules and regulations package that makes it easier to start and run a small business. We also need access to the pooling effect that large ones take advantage of. Where is the lobby for small business?

[KharmaTrain]

13. Bingo

Little guys haven't stood a chance since the early 90s. "Deregulation" have made it impossible to compete in many areas which in turn makes it more difficult to borrow to grow...the big guys don't want the competition and they're the ones who've paid Washington to ensure their interests come first.

Sadly, the lobbys for small businesses are a joke...many are money scams. Send us money and then we'll get back to you. Or join their insurance plan and you find out that all they are is another set of middle men...even worse, they get between you and the insurance company. A major reason I've stayed self-insured.

Sadly, all I hear from this government is lip service when it comes to small business...

[dkf]

18. Just think of what a huge job creation environment we could create if only we

Concentrated on small businesses. That is where all the jobs come from anyway since big business is outsourcing everything.

You are right that the Obama administration is really missing the boat on this one. Tax credits are only a part of what needs to be a comprehensive package that allows people to move out on their own and truly innovate.

They could have done so much more for health care reform and access simply by targeting a small business jobs creation bill that creates a national pool just for this group.

Where are the big thinkers?

[eridani]

19. Seems to me that what small businesses need most of all

--is a customer base with disposable income.

[dkf]

23. We just hired a painter that was going door to door.

He is licensed and all and everything was above board. He left his old employer because the guy would make him lie about how many coats he had done and gave him grief about how meticulous he was.

In the end he did a better job than he could have under his old company and he got to make the money for himself. Yet he must have been wary about going at it on his own in the beginning.

We should support initiative and risk taking. Now we only do it when it involves wall street.

And even when the economy is bad there are a lot of people with money. Yeah they get cheap but I still see a lot of spending

[dkf]

24. Dupe

[seabeckind]

25. Tax credits are a sham

Leftover Reaganomics...as is that bs about small business creating jobs. Need creates jobs. Business just satisfies the need.

The problem so far is everyone is following the old laissez faire mistaken idea that if you give a corporation some money they'll create a job with it. Hogwash...they'll use it to get more money.

That's what business does -- it's not in the job business, it's in the money (profit) business. The reason why the CCC worked was because the goal wasn't to make money -- it was to make jobs.

And this bs about road infrastructure is just that -- bs. How about if we go after 21st century infrastructure? Base broadband from hub to home that's a utility. Public utility cell tower infrastructure. High speed rail (another thread yesterday about the chinese doing one across Asia/Europe).

It's well past time to quit f' around.

There was thread on DU that linked to "Who Broke AMericas Job Machine" I kept the link to the article but not the DU thread. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1003.lynn-longman.html

Oh, and you might check out some of IndianaGreen's thread on the Indiana forum. One in particular about Whirlpool:

"The Whirlpool Corp. plans to start closing its refrigerator plant in Evansville, Ind., on March 26. The refrigerators now manufactured at this plant will be produced in Mexico, eliminating 1,100 local jobs. Meanwhile, Whirlpool--the world's largest home appliance maker--enjoys healthy profits and has received a $19 million economic matching grant that should be creating jobs here in America." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=151x7476


It is time to quit asking corporations what we need to do to make jobs -- it's time to tell them what to do to make jobs. Start penalizing. Forget that bs about giving them a nickel for making a B in reading, Make them go to their room and rad cause they got a D.

F' reagan will live forever.