OK, mandate boosters, please explain HOW & WHEN we will "fix" this "less than perfect" bill :

[Faryn Balyncd]

Please tell us just why we should trust that this no-public-plan mandate will not outlast us all - - - the mandate our most bitter, surviving legacy - - - long after angry and ignored voters finish relieving us of our majority?


The floor is yours.











:kick:



"If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not health insurance reform…it rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose Medicare if they’re under 65 or not. If they are allowed to choose Medicare as an option, this bill will be real health care reform...."

- Howard Dean

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. The mandate is the problem

It's odd to see how many progressives are all for it.

[Vincardog]

2. This LIBERAL is against it. No PO no Mandate.

[zipplewrath]

3. The EARLY problem

Alot of voters are going to see this mandate before they see any benefit. More are going to be shocked how much subsidy they AREN'T getting. In the longer term, as the cost of healthcare rises, and more companies opt to pay the penalty and let their employees fend for themselves, there will be more pissed off voters. When the blue collar workers are told why their health care benefits are being cut back because of their "cadillac" nature, there will be more pissed off voters.

Most voters aren't sick and in need of health insurance. Most voters rarely use what benefits they have. Most voters just know they have them.

Look at the major issues of today, and many are traceable back to the failings of the Clinton Administration:

DADT
DOMA
Failed Health Care reform
Banking Crisis
Osama Bin Laden


What will we be trying to "fix" in 10 years from this administration?

[aaronbav]

8. You left the BIGGEST Klinton abomination out of the list

NAFTA, GATT, WTO

[Lerkfish]

4. I don't see how.

as with all legislation, its harder to change than it is to pass.

[Faryn Balyncd]

7. nafta

[Oregone]

5. Soon. When the private insurers who lobbied for non-egalitarian, multi-tiered, low-actuarial mandate...

private plans get comfy with the profit from 30 million new customers and decide to bestow their benevolence upon the people. At such a time, the Congressmen they own will be informed that they may throw some table scraps to the people, who are being forced into a system inherently unfair and disproportional burdensome to those with lower income.


Very soon indeed.


(Hey, at least in my fantasy, I acknowledge it will originate from the power of the insurers rather than the spineless politicians who rejected socialistic solutions for expensive, irresponsible private industry. To spell it out: there just simply isn't a soul with the power and will to fix anything, and this bill is an example of that premise)

[Fumesucker]

6. Exactly, as soon as the insurance company executives are satiated..

And since we all know that top executives are easily and quickly satiated so it will happen almost overnight..

[Fumesucker]

9. Well, the chorus is certainly overwhelming today..

[Greyhound]

10. K&R #5

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Explain how we'll get better HCR when we scrap this bill.

:shrug:

[Faryn Balyncd]

14. It won't get better until we pass real reform, and a no-public-plan mandate is the enemy of reform.

:kick:





"If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not health insurance reform…it rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose Medicare if they’re under 65 or not. If they are allowed to choose Medicare as an option, this bill will be real health care reform...."

- Howard Dean

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. If we can't pass a fix, how do we pass "real" reform?

[Faryn Balyncd]

20. Here's a game plan:

1. We recognize that real reform MUST address the underlying problem of out-of-control costs, and that Medicare-for-All is a better approach.

2. That for a reform to be a step in the right direction, rather than a step in the wrong direction, it must allow every American the option to buy in to a public plan such as Medicare.

3. That the the only thing that will cause a correction in the abusive practices of the current system is to force insurance companies, if they are to survive, to compete on a level playing field with a public plan, which would be accomplished by both the the public and private plans having open enrollment, guaranteed issue, and community premium ratings. This would prevent the private plans from using the public plan as a dumping ground for costlier patients, and continuing to overcharge a selected, healthier demographic.

4. Recognize that an overwhelming majority of voters support such a public plan/option, but that only 34% of voters feel the current no-public-plan mandate "is better than passing nothing", and that even large numbers of 2008 Obama voters who support a public plan/option voted for Brown, a candidate who campaigned to kill the current plan.

5. Stand with American voters for a public plan. Do not, under any circumstances pass a plan that includes a mandate unless every American is offered the option to buy in to a public plan. If such real reform is not attainable at this time, campaign on that in the up-coming elections and force the obstructionists to run against the public plan voters support, rather that against a no-public-plan mandate voters oppose.



Such an approach does not guarantee that real reform can be achieved now, or on any time table.

But sanctioning a private-insurance-only mandate guarantees that real reform will be immensely more difficult, if ever possible, and will certainly result in electoral disaster in November.





:kick:

[Fumesucker]

15. You can post an OP for that, this OP is about how the current bill will get improved.. n/t

[pampango]

22. Indeed, the repubs will be happy to help us defeat this bill and "start over".

Nothing will happen this year and if they pick up more seats in November "starting over" will not happen next year won't happen either.

[Echo In Light]

12. k/r

[ibegurpard]

13. they don't have to

it's a fait accompli.
we're just going to have to live with this pile of shit.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. It will go on the list with DOMA and other 'gunna dos'

What amuses me is all the bragging about 'plugging the doughnut hole' in Medicare Prescription coverage. First the hole is not filled all the way for years. Second, the doughnut hole itself is a creation of Congress, who wrote it, discussed it and voted it into law. Now they are lauding the fixing of their own work, a slow, eventual sort of fix which callously extends the burden upon seniors while also taking credit for ending it. Credit now, fixing later. In the meantime, the Congress Made Doughnut continues, due to Congress's fix of that one.
They make it broken in advance so they can 'fix' it later. It is more Lewis Carroll than Lewis Carroll. Or is it more like MC Escher? Hard call.

[truedelphi]

18. Our household has personally fixed the entire situation - & for only a Dollar!

Please read up on our solution

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7891168&mesg_id=7897133

[Kitty Herder]

19. It won't happen.

They'll pass this piece of shit and then pat themselves on the back for dealing with the healthcare problem, thinking they won't have to deal with it again for 20 years. We'll be stuck with it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

21. Wow, finally there's a thread with no Message Discipline LLC disruption!

And ironically, it's the ONE subject they SHOULD be able to talk about.

Yeah, the MonSatan intern tried to hold down the fort for them, but alas, the talking points aren't on his screen.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Wow, no answers from the sparkle motion crowd?

I would have thought they'd be all over this one.

[Lerkfish]

28. they can't be here... they're in the other thread tellings us to stop being so negative

oh, and they have no real answer.

[madville]

24. They have to pass something, anything at this point

It's sad, but the only thing they care about at this point is getting a "victory" by passing something, anything. The administration has expended so much effort to pass something they can't fail at this point, even if it is huge steaming pile, they don't care.

I'm waiting to see the first commercials depicting the working poor/middle class getting hit with huge mandated family insurance premiums and they have to decide if they pay the mortgage or their insurance premiums.

[27inCali]

25. mandate booster is a pretty unfair name to use

i understand the anger and share a lot of it concerning the mandate, but in a perverse way, the mandate almost insures that this is not the end of the argument, that the Dems may indeed pass the bill, but that health care reform will continue to be a huge issue and that there will be continued across the spectrum pressure to tweak and expand the bill. I think either way, we will be fighting to install a decent health care system for the next decade. We need to stop brow-beating each other and prepare ourselves for a longer harder fight than many of us first expected.

[Festivito]

26. In 50 years! Well, another 50, then it'll be a 100. So don't add up how old you'll be.

That would be silly.

[tnlefty]

27. In my household the young'uns have been active politically

'cause the parents were. The one who was old enough to cast his first presidential vote, is pissed about the mandate with no public option, the lack of regulations on the banks, Duncan's assault on public education, etc., and he's looking elsewhere. The next one in line is pissed about the same, as is the youngest, as are the sane republicans around me who voted for Obama.

I suppose it's painless to keep ignoring the warning signs and just say everything is great, but I don't think so.

[Raineyb]

29. When hell freezes over.

Because I suspect that's about a snowball's chance in hell of seeing this bill "fixed". If they can't pass a GOOD bill how the hell can they pass a fix? If they weren't willing to fight for reforms that will help the public why the hell should we believe they will fight for a fix?

We've been down this road before. Only a sucker would believe that anything will be fixed based on this group of turkey's track record.