The health care reform negators

[Maraya1969]

All who are screaming about mandatory payments to the insurance and how this health reform bill nothing but a give away to the insurance companies must be more informed and more intelligent than about 58 Democratic Senators and over 200 Democratic Congress persons(and they did not have to twist many arms) and Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann. You must know something that they don't to be so sure this is a horrible bill. Here are a few items contained within the bill. I personally think they sound good. And there is a lot more at the link.


This is either part of the bill or separate but it is expected to pass or has passed.

"The Health Insurance Industry Fair Competition Act will do something very simple -- it will amend the McCarran-Ferguson Act, a law put in place in 1945, to subject health insurance companies to federal antitrust laws. Currently, only two industries are exempt from antitrust laws -- health insurance and Major League Baseball."

And here are some of the benefits of the bill.


http://dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc-sen_health_care_bill.cfm

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
Immediate Benefits

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act includes health insurance market reforms that will bring immediate benefits to millions of Americans, including those who currently have coverage. The following benefits will be available in the first year after enactment of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
Access to Affordable Coverage for the Uninsured with Pre-existing Conditions

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will provide $5 billion in immediate federal support for a new program to provide affordable coverage to uninsured Americans with pre-existing conditions.

ü Coverage under this program will continue until new Exchanges are operational.

Re-insurance for Retiree Health Benefit Plans

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will create immediate access to re-insurance for employer health plans providing coverage for early retirees.

ü This re-insurance will help protect coverage while reducing premiums for employers and retirees.

Closing the Coverage Gap in the Medicare (Part D) Drug Benefit

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will reduce the size of the “donut hole” by raising the ceiling on the initial coverage period by $500 in 2010.

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will also guarantee 50 percent price discounts on brand-name drugs and biologics purchased by low and middle-income beneficiaries in the coverage gap.

Small Business Tax Credits

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will offer tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable.

ü Tax credits of up to 50 percent of premiums will be available to firms that choose to offer coverage.

Extension of Dependent Coverage for Young Adults

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will require insurers to permit children to stay on family policies until age 26.

Free Prevention Benefits

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will require coverage of prevention and wellness benefits and exempt these benefits from deductibles and other cost-sharing requirements in public and private insurance coverage.

No Arbitrary Limits on Coverage

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will prohibit insurers from imposing lifetime limits on benefits and will restrict the use of annual limits.

Protection from Rescissions of Existing Coverage

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will stop insurers from rescinding insurance when claims are filed, except in cases of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of material fact.

http://dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc-sen_health_care_bill.cfm


Prohibits Discrimination Based on Salary

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will prohibit group health plans from establishing any eligibility rules for health care coverage that have the effect of discriminating in favor of higher wage employees.

Ensuring Value for Premium Payments

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will establish standards for insurance overhead to ensure that premiums are spent on health benefits.

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will also require public disclosure of overhead and benefit spending and require premium rebates for insurers that exceed established standards for overhead expenses.

Public Access to Comparable Information on Insurance Options

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will enable creation of a new website to provide information on and facilitate informed consumer choice of insurance options.

Health Insurance Consumer Information

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will provide assistance to States in establishing offices of health insurance consumer assistance or health insurance ombudsman programs to assist individuals with the filing of complaints and appeals, enrollment in a health plan, and, eventually, to assist consumers with resolving problems with tax credit eligibility.

Clear Summaries, Without the Fine Print

ü The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will require insurance companies to outline coverage options using a simple and standard format that enables consumers to make an apples-to-apples comparison when they are choosing their health insurance plan.

Appeals Process

ü Under The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, all health plans will implement an effective appeals process for appeals of coverage determinations and claims.

Administrative Simplification

ü Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, all health plans will adopt uniform descriptions of plan benefits and appeals procedures and will use uniform forms and claims processing processes to reduce costs.

How The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Will Help American Families
Lower Costs for American Families

ü Insurance Industry Reforms that Save Families Money

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will put a cap on what insurance companies can require families to pay in out-of-pocket expenses, such as co-pays and deductibles, prohibit lifetime limits on benefits, and restrict the use of annual limits.

ü Premium Relief

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will require premium rate reviews to track any arbitrary premium increases and will crack down on excessive insurance overhead by applying standards on how much insurance companies can spend on non-medical costs, such as bureaucracy and advertising. It will also provide sliding scale premium tax credits for families that still cannot afford quality health insurance.

ü Reduced Cost-Shifting

o To pay for the cost of uncompensated care, medical providers pass costs on to private insurers, which pass them on to families. This cost-shifting increases family premiums by, on average, over $1,100 a year. By covering more Americans, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will lower this surcharge on premiums.

Greater Choices for American Families

ü More Affordable Choices

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will create a health insurance Exchange that will provide families with a variety of choices, including private options and a public option to foster competition and increase choice.

ü One-Stop Shopping to Put Families in Charge

o The Exchange will provide standardized, easy-to-understand information on different health insurance plans offered in a geographic region so families can easily compare prices and health plans and decide which quality affordable option is right for them.

ü Insurance Security

o By creating a health insurance Exchange, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will ensure that families always have guaranteed choices of quality, affordable health insurance whether they lose their job, switch jobs, move or get sick.

Quality, Affordable Health Care for all Americans

ü Ending Insurance Company Discrimination

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will prevent insurance companies from denying families health insurance because of a pre-existing health condition or excluding coverage of that condition, and it will prevent insurance companies from dropping coverage if a family member gets sick or charging more because of health status or gender.

o Within a year of enactment, people who have health problems, but who lack access to health insurance, will be able to purchase a plan that protects them from medical bankruptcy. This high risk pool is a stop-gap measure that will serve as a bridge to a reformed health insurance marketplace.

ü Preventive Care for Better Health

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act ensures free preventive services under all insurance plans and invests in prevention and public health to encourage innovations in health care that prevent illness and disease before they require more costly treatment.

ü Tax Credits and Premium Assistance for Families and their Employers

o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act provides sliding scale tax credits to working families to make sure they can afford quality coverage, and a sliding scale tax credit to small businesses so they can offer competitive, affordable rates to their employees

[Lerkfish]

1. if a meal has filet mignon, cheesecake and arsenic potatoes

and you are forced to eat the potatoes, does it make a good meal?

[Toots]

5. Maybe the arsenic will be removed under reconciliation

:shrug: Maybe you like the Republicans are suggesting Democrats want to kill Americans off through their Health Care Reform Bill?

[Lerkfish]

6. "maybe". I hope you're right.

but calling me a republican is low class, even for you.

my point stands, if the mandate is in the bill, it will be an unbearable hardship for a very large group of people, even if higher-paid citizens benefit.
I for one am not happy about tossing them off the cliff.

[Maraya1969]

16. Did you see the part where the government picks up the bill if you make less

than a certain amount and pays a large portion if you make more. Insurance companies will have to spend a certain amount of each dollar they take in on actual health care so how are they going to get their billions in bonuses?

I really think that is why so many of them are increasing rates so high right now. Because they know that after health care reform passes that will be no more.

[Cal Carpenter]

11. Maybe all sorts of 'unintended consequences' of US policy kills people

all the time, and why should this be any different?

Regardless of party, all sorts of US policy decisions result in needless deaths, or fail to protect people from them. Instead the policies work to advance corporate interests.

I'm not among those who think 'they' are deliberately 'culling the herd' or whatever nonsense, but there is no denying that lots of people, both domestically and internationally, die as a direct or indirect result of US policy.

What are the odds that this is all that much different?

This goes so much deeper than partisan side-taking. It's the cheapest argument possible to call people republicans for opposing this bill.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. But you sure must love the peas that contain arsenic fed to you by the insurance companies. You see

they just put in a smaller amount of the arsenic every frickin' year, so you don't realize how deadly those 15, 20, 30 percent increases in premiums are.

[Lerkfish]

14. excuse me?

MY preference, if you had bothered to ask, would be to remove insurance companies from the equation completely and go to socialized medicine.
this HCR bill INCREASES the participation of the insurance companies, which is the opposite of what I want.

I neither want this bill, which is not enough reform, nor the status quo.

Next time, keep your assumptions about my position to yourself, or simply ask me.

[sinkingfeeling]

18. Then why do you currently argue for the status quo?

[Lerkfish]

21. show me such an argument that I have made.

good luck.

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I would say your total rejection of a mandate to reduce the overall cost of health care, is

a pretty good way of saying, "I'm willing to fore go all the 'good stuff' in the current bill, if it contains a mandate." That would certainly leave things as they currently are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7901303

[Lerkfish]

27. keep trying to put words in other people's mouths... maybe eventually you'll win an argument

[sinkingfeeling]

36. So then you'd better spell out your analogy a little better. What is represented by your

'arsenic potatoes'?

[Lerkfish]

42. so if I do not spell out my analogy to your satisfaction this gives you the right to put words

in my mouth?

interesting. Since you have not spelled out your position, do I get the same privelege?


The poison in the potatoes is the mandate and the enforcement of the mandate -- Using the IRS to force people to buy insurance at rates you admit are unreasonable.

[sinkingfeeling]

47. Are you then willing to see the bill defeated as it stands?

[Lerkfish]

48. nope, I'm stating my OBJECTION.. do you understand the meaning of the word?

I'm also stating my PREFERENCES as to a solution.

Its called discussing an issue.

[sinkingfeeling]

52. Now we're getting some where! What is your solution to getting everyone in the USA covered with at

least some health insurance? Would you use some type of incentive?

[Lerkfish]

53. getting where?

I can disagree with parts of the bill without drafting a bill of my own.

However, I have already stated that my preferred solution would be to eliminate insurance companies completely. They are not required to provide universal health care. They are just parasites who provide no other function than to distribute money from the patient to the doctor, and along the way make huge profits in usury.

eliminate the middle man. Any profit an insurance company makes is gouging everyone. And, they can decide who gets care and who does not.

Yes, taxes would have to fund universal health care, but it would be much more efficient than private for profit insurance company premiums and copays.

of course, you're probably not going to like that solution, but it is what I would implement if I had the power to do so.

[sinkingfeeling]

54. OK, I'll stop trying to discuss the issues. Have a nice day.

[Lerkfish]

57. LOL! now you get cold feet in the discussion?

by the way, you were never discussing the issue, you were attacking anyone who disagreed with you... there is a big difference. I answered you question with my point of view... and you could not handle it for some reason...

so, yeah, have a nice day.

[Cal Carpenter]

19. I'm getting the idea

that this particular poster likes to present false dichotomies and assumptions in order to discredit others or throw them off track.

[Maraya1969]

22. If you go to the link I posted you will see all explanations of the bill

and maybe you will learn that it is not such a boon to the health insurance industry. And maybe the 30 million people who will be automatically given insurance will make you realize that no bills are perfect but one that stops 44,000 deaths a year is at least the right thing to do.

[Lerkfish]

26. you link does not negate my argument at all.

may argument is that a meal can consist of some reallly good things, but if it contains a poison dish you have no choice but to eat, then is it a good meal?

you're just pointing out there is filet mignon and cheesecake, WHICH I AM ALSO acknowledging.

But I can't get past the poisoned potatoes, thanks.

no matter how condescending you become.

[court jester]

62. "maybe the 30 million people who will be automatically given insurance"

You wrote:"And maybe the 30 million people who will be automatically given insurance will make you realize that no bills are perfect"

This is a part of the bill that I am not familiar with. People are going to find Health Insurance policies show up one day in their mailboxes? Left on their doorknob? Insurance Pixie Dust®?

Could you please point me to a reference?

You: "but one that stops 44,000 deaths a year is at least the right thing to do."

everything in the bill starts immediately? Here I thought some stuff was phased in
over a few years. Silly.


Thanks!

[Maraya1969]

33. Lead follow or get out of the way.

[Lerkfish]

34. thanks!

marginalize, ignore and dismiss.

avoid any debate

accept only blind fealty


are these your slogans, too?

[Maraya1969]

37. I think the people who un'rec these threads are the ones who want to keep

their ears, eyes and month covered. I put up a lot of information that many here do not seem to have read before they posted their answers.

Did even read any of the post or the information at the link?

[Lerkfish]

41. no, I did not unrec this thread. Yes, I read your link.

or to be fair, I skimmed it, since I already know it.

and, I commented on your link, if you'd bother to check.

see? I'm willing to debate. How about you?

[Maraya1969]

17. Exactly what part is the arsenic?

[RedCloud]

2. Insurance companies who drop those with fatal conditions should be charged with murder!

Also congrats on use of the umlaut.

Here come a few more from its family tree:

ú, ñ, é, á, í, ó

[glowing]

3. If people keep calling for medicare for all, we may actually get the public option.

That would be victory enough for me.. Eventually, the ins. co's will do themselves in and everyone will essentially be in a medicare for all scenario. Without something that counters the ins co's, we are sitting ducks...add a mandate... and we are screwed, sitting ducks.

[Cal Carpenter]

4. hmmm...

"...must be more informed and more intelligent than about 58 Democratic Senators and over 200 Democratic Congress persons... - yeah, people who get paid far more than a living wage and have the best insurance available and plenty of money for co-pays. I wonder how much Keith and Rachel make, what type of insurance they have? They know what's best for poor, working (or unemployed) people?

Yeah, I think people who struggle to make ends meet on a monthly basis and whose budgets will be blown to pieces by the premiums alone, let alone the co-pays deductibles and co-insurance actually DO know better than the people on capitol hill.

The doctors and nurses and working class people, yeah, I think they DO know a hell of a lot more about it.

Check out this tool:

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

Let's say I was a healthy 35 year old single person making $25,000 a year in a high-cost area of the country (I'm not, this is just an example). I'd be expected to spend 7% of my income on premiums. Let's say I manage to come up with that $150 a month by, I don't know, canceling my internet connection and never putting my heat above 60 degrees and quitting my 3 drinks a week habit.

I still can't afford a $20 co-pay to actually USE the fucking insurance.

I am so sick of this idea that these people in DC and these talking heads on TV somehow know what's best for people like me and my neighbors. That paternalistic condescending bullshit is toxic to political discourse.

[Lerkfish]

7. +1000

[sinkingfeeling]

10. So what you want is totally 'free' care. Even if it were Medicare for all, you'd still have a

monthly premium and co-pays and deductibles.

[Cal Carpenter]

12. Where did I say that? n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

20. OK, how much of a copay would you be willing to pay, if $20 is too high?

[Cal Carpenter]

32. First of all, it's not about ME and what I 'want'

Nor is it about you, for that matter. It is a public policy effecting every person and employer in this country, along with overall public health, and theoretically, isn't the purpose for the public good? The public good transcends any individual case.

That said...

No one should have to struggle to pay for housing, food, or heat in order to get medical care.

Low-income people (as determined by real-world formulas - not outdated bullshit like the 'federal poverty level') shouldn't have to pay a goddamn penny.

Other people could pay a 'co-pay' or a premium to the extent that it does not wreck their basic standard of living.

Tax the rich to subsidize the low-income people.

Ya know, we aren't inventing the wheel here. Dozens of civilized (and even some not-so-civilized) countries have universal free and affordable healthcare for their citizens. There is NO reason we can't do it here, except the power of the corporations over our political process. Which YOU are defending, btw.

Our health-insurance oriented system is indefensible, as is this bill, which only serves to solidify the insurance industry. The fact that the so-called 'left' party is putting forth this bill as a solution to our health care crisis is both frightening and embarrassing.

[sinkingfeeling]

44. I have yet to see you present a solution. And exactly which countries have 'universal free

and affordable healthcare'? Which have no private health insurance companies? You know that there are almost 38 million Americans receiving 'free' care via Medicaid, most being children. In the southern states, like here, 60% of all child births are paid for by taxpayers. This bill expands Medicaid to many more. So what is it that you are so against?
http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/

[Cal Carpenter]

56. You know what?

Your posts are intellectually dishonest and jumbled, and I'm not spending any more time on this with you or the OP.

I hope you never suffer the poverty and desperation that I see people struggle with every day in my community.

I hope you never know what it is like to suffer with an infected tooth until half your teeth rot away just so you can afford to feed your babies and keep a roof over their innocent vulnerable heads.

I hope you never lose a job because your kid is sick and not getting good health care and you have to miss work too much.

You KNOW those things aren't going away with the passage of this bill in any of it's variations.

I hope someday you understand that you are supporting injustice and suffering aimed at the weakest among us only to prop up those who have more than anyone could ever use in a lifetime.

I honestly hope for those things because there is no such thing as justice unless it applies to all.

I repeat one more time - this is not about me or what I 'want', it is not about you or what you 'want', it is about the common good, it is NOT relative and there IS truth in this debate you are trying hard to obscure that truth but I will not be party to that.

---Cal

[Maraya1969]

58. Poverty stricken people will get health care! If you read what I posted you will see that.

And there are provisions that let you keep your insurance if you lose your job and where you employer, if it is a small company, will be receiving tax breaks to make sure they can pay for insurance for all their employees.

This bill will immediately bring health care to 30 million of our poorest and most needy people. Whoever said that Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann do not know about these problems is forgetting Keith's medical care for all days. Do you really think that just because a person has money that they can't empathize with someone who doesn't.

I am not poverty stricken and I want this bill for all the people who die from lack of health insurance each year. I am not fighting for this bill for myself. I have heard enough tragic stories that should not have happened in this country. People lose their houses because of the system we have now. And others say don't pass this bill because it has some problems in it. Well the problems are going to start changing right after the bill is passed, in the form of amendments and new bills. (like getting rid of the anti-trust exemption status that insurance companies have enjoyed all these years) and making most money taken in on insurance premiums to be paid only to health care will keep the costs of insurance down.

There are so many positives that using one negative to try and stop the bill is just not fair to the poor and least among us. I personally find that selfish.

You don't have to be poor to want to help the poor. You don't have to be rich to be selfish enough to want this bill to fail when there is good chance we will lose a lot of Democrats next November and this may be our only chance for the beginning of reform. If we don't pass this now we may be up against a brick wall and change may never come.

[Lerkfish]

23. you didn't. That poster likes to put outrageous words in other people's mouths.

[closeupready]

38. I'm seeing that, too. How dishonest of him.

:mad:

[sinkingfeeling]

50. Here's a direct quote. "I still can't afford a $20 co-pay to actually USE the fucking insurance."

Yes, it's supposedly an example and not really the poster who is saying it.

[Maraya1969]

28. You're comparing that to the $900 premium that you pay now? With all its exceptions on care?

[Cal Carpenter]

39. What are you talking about? n/t

[Maraya1969]

59. Post #4

[Lerkfish]

43. There is nothing in the bill that requires the insurance companies give you care

nor does it prevent them (at the moment) from refusing to insure for preexisting conditions, nor does it prevent them for charging exorbitant extra fees for those with preexisting conditions.

so I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

[Maraya1969]

30. $25k a year is about $2K a month and you think spending $150 is a hardship?

Compared to what? Paying $900 for a policy that will drop you when you get sick?

[Cal Carpenter]

40. I repeat - what are you talking about?

Please stop spamming my posts (I didn't even know that was possible) and if you reply to me, reply to the words I am saying, not whatever imaginary conversation is going on in your head.

eta: See my post #32 if you want to see where I'm coming from here

[Lerkfish]

45. spamming my posts, too.

LOL.

[Maraya1969]

60. I repeat. Your post #4

[Lerkfish]

46. okay, Ill bite. have you compared rents by region?

try comparing the rent in california and DC with the rent in rural illinois.

if the mandate does not adjust for regional COL but enforces on a federal level, there is a problem.

[Maraya1969]

67. Oh fer Gawd's sake the bill DOES allow people to buy across state lines!

Look I am hoping again all Hell that the public option gets into the bill through reconciliation but all I hear on here is how bad this bill is to the point that it does not even look like a Democratic forum to me.

But if all of you are calling or not calling your representatives because you think there is arsenic in one of the parts then nothing gets accomplished and the other side wins. I'm saying that there is no arsenic. There is some rough meat but not rough enough to say "no" to when you are hungry. And if people read the bill or at least the summarizations then they would know that.

[leftstreet]

55. +1

[derby378]

8. Healthcare in America - a RESPONSIBILITY, not a RIGHT

Can I choose my own doctor, or am I simply assigned one by my Federally-mandated private insurance plan?

If my health insurance comes from my employer, and it stinks on ice, will I be able to change insurance plans?

Let's say all the private health insurance plans on the exchange are horrible. Where's the government-run alternative?

If I am a woman, do I have access to quality healthcare or not?

Is the individual mandate to purchase a corporate consumer health product Constitutional or not?

I want healthcare reform as much as anyone else here does. But, as comedian Julie Brown once said, you can't make lemonade out of a dead dog no matter how hard you try.

[freddie mertz]

13. This isn't "health care reform." It is mandated private health INSURANCE.

Even the advocates have tended to call it "insurance reform" now.

There is no guarantee of actual, affordable ACCESS TO TREATMENT anywhere in this legislation.

[Maraya1969]

31. Yes there is. Read the paragraphs I put up.

[kctim]

15. I think its funny

People screaming about how mandates are so wrong ONLY because it is not a mandate for what they want.

[court jester]

65. And once this cat is outta the baggie folks are going to find out that Tabbie isn't going back in

Some of us are screaming *Precisely* Because It Sets THe Precedent That the Feds can Force You to Purchase Something.
Where do they get that authority? Can any administration, with 61 votes, mandate anything? Legislate *anything*?

a slippery slope, if you would stop and remember that Oboma isn't going to be in office forever.

Ready for Palins 12 Gauge Safety Squad?

Everyone must buy a 12 Gauge and enough shells to fell a moose

Cause it's safer!

[Fumesucker]

24. California has given up on trying to regulate Anthem Blue Cross..

The company is too large and powerful and simply ties up any regulation attempts by the state in court indefinitely.

The enforcement mechanism for the private mandate is clear and I have no doubt the IRS will move forcefully to make sure that individuals purchase private insurance.

The enforcement mechanism(s) against the insurance industry are far less clear and are likely to be weakly pursued at best.

[Lerkfish]

35. excellent point!

kudos!

[inna]

29. "Insurance Industry Profits Protection Act" would be a more accurate and non-Orwellian way to call

it.

[Romulox]

49. Mandatory private profits spoil the entire punch boil. nt

[laughingliberal]

51. People screaming about mandatory insurance payments aren't more informed that 58 Senators

We just haven't gotten our pay off from the lobbyists.

Oh, and the repeal of the anti-trust exemption is a bill the House passed. The Senate would not include it in theirs. I believe there may be some support in the Senate now for doing it but it's not clear it can pass.

That's the problem. A lot of people who would support the House bill and would, grudgingly, support the Senate bill with some of the changes needed have little or no trust in the Senate to follow through on a 'fix.'

Can you blame them after the debacle we watched in the fall? How much more obvious could key Senators make it that they will vote against pain for the industry no matter what it costs the people?

[RandomThoughts]

61. I think the bill is worth passing because it helps people.

The money does not matter to me. The idea of having public option style compition could be accomplished by the exchange thing, or it could be a total give away to insurance companies.

The money issue is not important to me.

But it will be to voters, and many of them will be unhappy, which is what was said months ago, that has not changed, politically for the insurance companies and legislator the mandate will hurt them, but the bill will help people, so I would not want people not to get that help just to help insurance companies and legislators.

Plus they can still push things forward like Greyson Idea, which is great in its simplicity, and even do a few things going up to primary season based on expanding areas that people will also like.




So if the bill helps people it is a good bill, if it adds profit to insurance companies and raises prices, it helps people by backlash.

So I am happy, just need to find a song.

http://hk.video.yahoo.com/video/video.html?id=1743942

Found a good song.

[court jester]

63. Some people can be helped without turning other people into slaves. It happens all the time.

It doesn't have to be either/or. Ask one of the Doctors Max Baucus had arrested.

They might know something Maxie doesn't

[fascisthunter]

64. Orwellian Garbage

by those who are obviously politically brainwashed.

[Lerkfish]

66. or have a vested (meaning money) interest

meaning the media and congress people putting out these memes, not DUers in particular

[fascisthunter]

68. exactly

ps - not duers